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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 27 2005 : 10:45:47 AM
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Is anybody practicing some form of exercises to counter negative thoughts? I read several different methods: one is to replace the negative thought with its positive counterpart (for instance if you feel fear to focus on courage), another (from Tolle) is to accept your negative feeling and bring your attention into it. Has anyone done any of those for a long period of time?
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Edited by - AYPforum on Feb 05 2007 8:51:57 PM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Nov 27 2005 : 11:41:39 AM
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Hi Lily:
Between the two approaches you mentioned for dealing with negative thoughts, the thought replacement strategy is not as effective as the witnessing strategy. However, the witnessing strategy depends on the degree to which we have developed our inner silence, and witnessing by itself is not the best way cultivate inner silence. As we have been discussing lately (here and here), while passive witnessing does have some affect on increasing our witnessing quality, deep meditation is a more direct approach to cultivating it as a full time presence. Then we are in a position to observe, enter into and dissolve negative mental and emotional activity without experiencing inner fluctuations in our awareness (sense of self).
The rise of the witness also leads to the ability to engage effectively in "self-inquiry," which is the ability to proactively question and dissolve the non-reality of negative thoughts, feelings and perceptions. This is the shattering of illusion. What remains is our eternal pure bliss consciousness.
Interestingly, the rise of the witness, combined with the intellectual process of self-inquiry, leads to increasing bhakti (desire for truth) and surrender to what is real within us and our surroundings. The most basic form of self-inquiry is the inquiry, "Who am I?" That single question, released deep within our inner silence, can move mountains. In fact, every other form of self-inquiry is a variation on "Who am I?"
There is the samyama connection here -- our ability to effortlessly release thoughts and feelings within our inner silence where they have the greatest evolutionary power. Negative thoughts and feelings have no evolutionary power, and have no influence in inner silence. They are dissolved and transformed to evolutionary energy there. This is why I have said that samyama is a morally self-regulating process.
There is a book called "Loving What is," by Byron Katie, that offers a simple approach to developing a habit of self-inquiry. When combined with daily deep meditation and rising inner silence, self-inquiry can be a viable approach for dealing with the negative thoughts and feelings that come up in daily life. Self-inquiry is a proactive form of witnessing, just as mantra meditation is proactive cultivation of inner silence (the witness itself).
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Nov 27 2005 : 12:30:24 PM
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Dear Yogani,
Thank you very much for the detailed response. I will try to check out the book you recommend. I am looking forward to read the new meditation book also. By the way I just read a book by Georg Feuerstein which was very much in line with everything in AYP except it states people should practice meditation only after mastering yama, niyama, asanas and pranayama.  He says unless you do that meditation would lead you to identify more with your conditioned mind rather than less. I guess he is saying this because he recommends working on the perineum-crown route rather than perineum-third eye which would require better preparation. |
Edited by - Lili on Nov 27 2005 12:43:30 PM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Nov 27 2005 : 2:46:53 PM
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Hi Lily:
Though the approach Feuerstein (who is a respected yoga scholar) promotes is the common traditional one, I don't know anyone who has had success with it going the distance in yoga, which again begs the question: "Where's the enlightened?"
The premise in traditional yoga is that learning to behave enlightened (yama and niyama), doing neuro-energy practices (asanas and pranayama) and draconian sensory deprivation (pratyahara) are the prerequisites for learning the most powerful enlightenment practice -- meditation that directly cultivates inner silence. Perhaps the reference here is to a method of meditation that does not go immediately deep beyond the thinking process, and therefore it requires "preparation" so we will not get hung up in it. Well, who needs forms of meditation that place the burden of their ineffectiveness on the practitioner? This entire process seems backwards to me, and leading nowhere fast.
Oddly enough, the mainstream traditional approach to yoga is highly esoteric because it leaves ardent seekers hankering indefinitely outside the door of deep practice. Add to it that only a "guru" can impart the "advanced" teachings of meditation, and you have a sure-fire formula for not much happening.
The traditional eight limbs "in sequence" approach to yoga that Feuerstein and others promote is the least risk, least results strategy. It reflects the condition of yoga around the world today where nearly everyone is left wallowing in physicality and intellectuality -- barely scratching the surface of the vast potential for human spiritual transformation. Then add to that the kundalini messes associated with premature crown practices, and who would even want to look further?
The shortcoming is not in the practitioners. The shortcoming is in the teachings!
The limbs of yoga need not be taken in sequence. In fact, the best results are found by taking them in a more practical order, with effective deep meditation first. There is more discussion on this in the lesson on the eight limbs of yoga and samyama (#149) at http://www.aypsite.org/149.html
The bottom line is, we ought to be optimizing the application of yoga practices in ways that are results-oriented, rather than blindly following approaches and practices that are slow and produce sub-par results. There is no time to waste.
The guru is in you.
PS -- Btw, the answer to the question, "Where's the enlightened?" is to be found right where each of us is sitting... 
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Nov 27 2005 : 4:36:09 PM
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quote:
The premise in traditional yoga is that learning to behave enlightened (yama and niyama)
Ha...good one. Of course one of the things you discover in yoga is that cause and effect run both ways.
quote:
Oddly enough, the mainstream traditional approach to yoga is highly esoteric because it leaves ardent seekers hankering indefinitely outside the door of deep practice. Add to it that only a "guru" can impart the "advanced" teachings of meditation, and you have a sure-fire formula for not much happening.
Sailor Bob (http://members.iinet.net.au/~adamson7), my favorite modern advaita teacher, writes that Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj told him that "the greatest help that can be given to anyone is to take them beyond the need for further help." Bob talks a lot about how most spiritual teachers work (inadvertantly or not) to keep their students on an endless path. So much for "liberation"! |
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - Nov 27 2005 : 6:51:46 PM
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Hari OM
~~~~~
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Hi Lily:
The premise in traditional yoga is that learning to behave enlightened (yama and niyama) and doing neuro-energy practices (asanas and pranayama) are the prerequisites for learning the most powerful enlightenment practice -- meditation that directly cultivates inner silence.
Hello Lili, Yogini (et.al).
Many have pondered this subject... what to do first?
The Veda's are quite clear, they say:
"Success/Skill in action is comes from sattvia, its not the means." Sounds a bit esoteric, but means success in your endeavors comes from infusing sattvia into your life. this comes from meditation. From that one acts in accord with nature more and more over time.
AS I understand it, it's not trying to act "good" [or mood making that I am good/spiritual ]that one breeds success. That is, practicing Yama and Niyama without meditation is effort. Effort breeds stress which gives more road blocks to ones spiritual pursuits. With meditation one uses yama and niyama as the guard rails and over time they too are not needed, as one acts spontaneously.
Re: Negative thoughts - I empathize with you. What is my saving grace ? I am not these thoughts. Yes they happen. They come a go.
Lots of thrashing. I wish they were not there, yet they happen. Marharishi Patanjali suggests thinking opposite thoughts, some say witness them.
I have no cure - its what we practice and experience to find a cure… You [we] experiencing pure consciousness i.e. "washing the mind" is very conducive to this house cleaning.
I know one thing, when I watch my diet, it greatly influences my thoughts. You may perhaps what to take note of your intake.
This is from an Ayurvedic perspective. ( Food is medicine , medicine is food is principle #1 with Ayruved).
Just a thought - all passes with time.
Peace,
Frank In San Diego |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Nov 27 2005 : 9:01:57 PM
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I have a question (directed to yogani mainly) with yamas and niyamas coming automatically with meditation.
For example let us take vegetarian diet. Let us say it is good for spiritual progress. As of today I like non-veg more but slowly as I do more and more meditation, the interest will reduce gradually. So when do I stop eating non-veg?
1. do I wait till I completely start disliking it? Or
2. do I keep trying in the middle trying to stop it as the purification goes on?
I think the second approach again goes back to traditional approach.
What I am worried is, by this kind of waiting till we really dislike it, are we not losing the good effects of a veg diet that help spiritual progress? Or does "forcing it" have some bad effects which will nullify these good effects and hence not recommended?
-Near
Genes are a result of karma RATHER THAN A CAUSE OF IT - Yogani |
Edited by - nearoanoke on Nov 27 2005 9:34:19 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Nov 27 2005 : 10:55:47 PM
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I eat plenty of meat and haven't noticed any ill effects. That said, there may come a time when it doesn't appeal to me. Then I'll stop.
Lots of Tibetan Buddhists (and even some Indian Brahmins) eat meat. Follow your inner guru. Don't worry about being spiritually correct, just go with your flow, listening carefully. |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Nov 29 2005 : 10:45:21 PM
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Hi Near:
The answer is the same for all the yamas and niyamas -- "Don't wait and don't force." Waiting is not so good, and neither is forcing. It is the procedure we use in all of our AYP practices -- gentle persuasion ... or proactive letting go toward more of inner quality of life, which enhances outer quality of life. Simply knowing the guideline is enough. Rising inner silence will do the rest. When we find ourselves on the fence, we can easily choose the guideline. That is how yamas and niyamas can be used in AYP, without waiting or forcing. When the choice is easy, we make it for purity, evolution and for the good. We don't wait...
An exception to this procedure would be in the case of harming others. If we do not firmly guard ourselves from harming others, then others should, and will. This is the value of laws put in place to safeguard the common good.
Happily, yoga will bring up ahimsa (non-harming) pretty fast. In fact, those attracted to yoga usually already have it, and the other yamas and niyamas to a degree as well. Bhakti alone will bring that degree of purification, as well as bringing us to our path, or our path to us!
The guru is in you.
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2005 : 10:58:13 AM
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Lili,
This is in reply to your original post about negative thoughts (or feelings). If one comes up in meditation, the tendency is first to get absorbed into it, but the moment we can realise that this is happening, instead of trying to suppress it or replace it, we can put a label on it, that "this is a negative thought", do I have to think about it now or can it wait til later? Most of the time it can wait, then we are ready to go back to the mantra. This can also work in daily life, to put labels on what happens in our mind or feelings, then we rise one step above these processes, and they have less power. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2005 : 2:32:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by weaver
Lili,
If one comes up in meditation, the tendency is first to get absorbed into it, but the moment we can realise that this is happening, instead of trying to suppress it or replace it, we can put a label on it, that "this is a negative thought", do I have to think about it now or can it wait til later? Most of the time it can wait, then we are ready to go back to the mantra. This can also work in daily life, to put labels on what happens in our mind or feelings, then we rise one step above these processes, and they have less power.
Hello Weaver,
thanks for your post. I would recommend not using that labelling process during the mediation, though it would be fine outside it.
During the meditation (according to 'our' technique of lesson 13, mantra yoga) regardless of what turns up, we simply favor the mantra when we become aware that our mind is not on it. There is no attempt to make any kind of attitudinal or perspectival shift prior to returning to the mantra. One simply returns to it.
Of course, if doing an alternative technique of meditation, that could be fine.
Regards,
-D
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Dec 03 2005 2:35:11 PM |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2005 : 2:55:48 PM
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Thanks David for your clarification.
For AYP meditation it's best to just return to the mantra. |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2005 : 3:15:49 PM
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I agree with david here. I think buddhist vipassana has a technique where you label thoughts. For our AYP, we dont do any such things, just go back to mantra. We try to avoid all such thinking which takes us away from the inner silence.
I feel AYP is much easier than meditations that use those labelling techniques. When I realize I am into thoughts, it is much easier to 'just forget' those thoughts and go back to mantra than doing something with them.
Genes are a result of karma RATHER THAN A CAUSE OF IT - Yogani |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2007 : 8:51:57 PM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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Neutralizing negativity
