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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 20 2005 : 09:52:08 AM
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Hi all,
I have 2 questions which I hope someone could shed some light on. One concerns losing control (but not consicousness) in meditation, and the other about witnessing thoughts in meditation.
1.
My experience may be similar to the one in the following thread and another(which I couldn't find out now). But I remain conscious (somehow, at least) throughout my practises.
http://www.aypsite.org/17.html
In my meditation I sometimes fall into a state very close to sleeping. It's almost dreaming. Just as usual, many thoughts come, but I am too unconscious to return to the mantra. I may forget what my mantra is, or even forget what I am supposed to do ( i.e. to return to my mantra) I just know I have to do something, but I forget what that is. Even if I succeed in returning to my mantra, it goes away within just a few seconds.
I can choose to somehow wake myself up a bit and say abruptly to my uncontrollable thoughts: "stop!" and then return to my mantra. But I don't do that frequently since this doesn't seems to be gentle. The arising thoughts are rather complicated, but I could not recall them even after around 2 seconds.
What should I do in such cases? Still doing it gently?If I only try to return to the mantra "gently", I will not actually be able to return to it. Also, there seems to be a bit of uneasy feeling in such situations, since I was not able to follow the easy procedure: I know I have to return to the mantra but I have no control...
2.
My second question concerns a meditation technique which is quite well-known: wittnessing thoughts: to observe(with non-attachment) the thoughts coming up during meditation. I wonder if this is compatible with the AYP meditation. Or, is this already what we are supposed to do in the lessons? I would like to know if this is counterproductive to the original practise.
Maybe I should call this an attitude in stead of an additional things one "do" during meditation. I tried having this attitude during meditation a few times and my experience have been great! When I follow the mantra as usual, my mind usually find it hard to rest solely on the mantra. So thoughts arise, of course, and my mind would unconsciously follow the thought, analyze it, have a dialogue within, etc. Or I would just think about whether I am doing right, telling myself not to think that much, etc. Probably because the mantra is too simple. Too simple to put my full attention on. But if I add the above attitude, thoughts still arise (and at this moment I cannot "catch" all my thoughts), but I have a less chance to get into an internal dialogue, analysis, etc. Also, this process is rather enjoyable for me. btw, the action of observing a thought (including negative ones like feeling bored) seems to stop it automatically-- the thought just don't want to be observed.
But I understand that progress cannot be measured in terms of experience. That's why I ask this question. I would like to progress faster than to have a more enjoyable journey!
Alvin |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2005 : 11:40:14 AM
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Hi Alvin:
Going back to the mantra is not imperative under all circumstances. We only do it when it is easy -- never forcing or laboring over it. You will become more familiar with this with more experience, and be less concerned when you get into those occasional fuzzy sleep-like states. Just keep in mind, if we are remembering to pick up the mantra but it is not easy, then we just passively witness whatever is happening until things clear up enough for us to easily come back to the mantra. So you are right on that.
However, we do not deliberately try and do both things at the same time -- mantra and witnessing. That is giving attention to two procedures at once, which divides the mind, weakening the meditation. If we have the ability to choose, we always choose the mantra, because that procedure will take us deep over and over again. The witnessing procedure is okay to use separately for expediting a dominant process of purification (that is the prescription in AYP), but is not as progressive for taking us deep as effective mantra use is. That is why passive witnessing-style meditation systems take much longer to produce the same results that proactive mantra-style meditation does. Passive witnessing by itself works, but yields slower purification and requires longer sittings. That is why in AYP meditation we always favor the mantra when we have the choice to easily do that. The result is much more progress in much shorter sittings. Efficiency!
As a result of deep meditation over time, the witness will rise and be there naturally without any conscious effort. That is different. Then we will be witnessing the mantra and everything else inside and outside meditation. That does not change the procedure of meditation, which is the cause of the rising witness and all that springs from it later on.
This is covered from several angles in the lessons, and even more so in the new book coming out soon -- "Deep Meditation."
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2005 : 6:08:27 PM
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Dear Alvin,
The main focus is on the mantra but not to the point where you are concentrating on holding it to the exclusion of thoughts.This is not correct or relaxing.Remember that everytime we meditate the experience will be different and not every time do we achieve total relaxation and deep states.Sometimes we will experience very deep states as in yoga nidra and other times we may experience spontaneous thoughts and no matter how many times we retrun to the mantra we always seem to end up back to the busy thoughts.My guru likens this to a tank of muddy water that keeps getting stirred up with the cloudy water then needing to settle.Although this is not the most enjoyable aspects of meditation , it is the time of cleansing and purification.The important thing to remember is to gently focus on the mnayra and when you realise you are not chanting it, then simply gently return to it.This is all that is needed and is correct for you.Remember any experiences are correct for you at the time.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Nov 27 2005 : 11:05:32 PM
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quote:
As a result of deep meditation over time, the witness will rise and be there naturally without any conscious effort. That is different. Then we will be witnessing the mantra and everything else inside and outside meditation. That does not change the procedure of meditation, which is the cause of the rising witness and all that springs from it later on.
My perspective is that all of us are already able to "witness" at any time, but that we have a habit of choosing to jump into each thought that comes our way because of our stored emotional responses to these thoughts. In other words, a thought floats by our consciousness and as our awareness touches it, it elicits an emotional reaction pulling us into the thought as we relive it to some extent. We temporarily become our thoughts again and again in a "noisy" mind and spend all our time in them rather than watching them go by (the silent mind/ living in the here and now). Detachment to me means, letting go of the emotional response to our thoughts therefore being free of their magnetic pull and enabling us to live in the present moment, therefore "witnessing".
Could it be said that meditation allows us to release the emotional energies attached to our thoughts (that we have stored in our physical bodies) which then gives us the ability to watch our thoughts go by instead of being attracted or feeling compelled to jump in?
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WhiteCrane38
United Kingdom
33 Posts |
Posted - Feb 07 2006 : 06:03:54 AM
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Yogani said: We do not deliberately try and do both things at the same time -- mantra and witness.
Is this different from being aware of your thoughts but paying them little or no attention while slightly favouring the mantra? It seems a quite a subtle difference, is it?
Thanks. |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Feb 07 2006 : 10:01:32 AM
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Hello WhiteCrane,
We don't slightly favour the mantra in a way of letting thoughts run in the background at the same time. We gently favour the mantra only, once we become aware of any thought, stimuli or anything else than the mantra, and at that moment we are with the mantra again. But we do this in a gentle way, not laboring or forcing it. In the next moment a thought or stimuli may come up again by itself, as soon as we become aware of that we gently go back to the mantra again. And we let the mantra modify itself and become fuzzy or clear, the only thing we do is to pick it up when we lose it. And we don't try to lose the mantra either, if we stay (gently) with it, that's fine too. By following this simple procedure the mantra will refine itself over time and become more subtle and lead our awareness to stillness.
(the edit is the underlining only) |
Edited by - weaver on Feb 07 2006 3:11:00 PM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Feb 07 2006 : 1:14:27 PM
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Hi WhiteCrane,
Just to clarify in my post, I know it may sound a little ambiguous, but I wasn’t referring to witnessing during practice sessions. I was attempting to shed some light on how practices lead to further witnessing in our daily lives outside of meditation. The exercise of witnessing is not done in AYP sitting practices.
During meditation we focus on the mantra, as weaver points out, as soon as we realize we are off of it, we go back to it. A small clarification on weaver’s post would be that we favour the mantra and at any time we notice we are off of it (including silent moments), or else if we use what is coming up as a cue to go back, we will actually be placing our awareness and focus on that rather than the mantra. Therefore any time you realize you are not favoring the mantra, simply come back to it then and not wait for a thought or experience to come up as a cue to go back to it.
If I am mistaken on this subtlety Yogani, please chime in, but I think you have answered this question for me in the past.
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yogani99
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Feb 07 2006 : 2:08:13 PM
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That's right, Anthem.
When we are riding a bike, do we think, "Now I will lean this way and then that way to stay up."
No. We just ride the bike without thinking about how we are doing it. Only in the very beginning while we were learning did we think about how to do it.
It is the same with deep meditation. We think about the procedure while we are learning. Once we know how, have the habit, it has become automatic. Then we just easily come back to the most comfortable level of the mantra when we find ourselves somewhere else, anywhere else. Nothing to wait for or think about. We just do it. The practice becomes transparent to the thinking process, just as riding a bike is.
The simple habit of this procedure in deep meditation has huge implications in our daily life, not the least of which is a rising ability to easily walk past all the obstacles that stand between us and our destiny.
The guru is in you.
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WhiteCrane38
United Kingdom
33 Posts |
Posted - Feb 07 2006 : 4:33:35 PM
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Thanks all for clarifying this for me.
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n/a
26 Posts |
Posted - Feb 06 2012 : 12:00:49 PM
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Thanks so much for this thread.
Alvin, I've been experiencing the exact same thing that you described in your first point, for the last several days. There is extremely valuable guidance in the replies. I appreciate it.
I have also often wondered if being tired has something to do with that hypnogogic-like state in which this seems to happen, and if having adequate rest at all times will reduce those instances. Regardless, if the procedure is done correctly as described above, purification is still happening, right?
Thanks,
Sean |
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snake
United Kingdom
279 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2012 : 07:55:04 AM
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| hi Spsaism,did you know the last post was 6 years ago.still relevant though:) |
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n/a
26 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2012 : 11:06:17 AM
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 Yes I did notice that. I agree! Still relevant, and deserves another look in my opinion. Very helpful! |
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losing control/ witnessing thoughts in meditation
