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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 06 2005 : 9:25:24 PM
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Now THIS is weird.
Nothing has changed energetically. I feel the same shimmering waves of bliss as I'd been feeling for months. However, my brain isn't choosing to inerpret those waves as bliss. I'm having trouble conveying it..... I can feel all the currents flowing beautifully, but I feel it in black and white instead of in color, or as if the audio channel has cut out. I have every sensation I'd been having for months, but it feels dead neutral. And this happened in a flash, like a switch had been turned. Everything's still open and shimmery, evertything's unchanged, but I'm feeling it as utterly flat. Not a drop of bliss.
It's likely for the best. Bliss can be narcotic, and one can sidetrack into focusing on eliciting more of it (happily, the things that bring bliss are generally opening actions that are good for sadhana, but still, there's an attachment issue). Also, the bliss can make it hard to access stillness.
But still, it's pretty weird. This must be how frigid people experience the build up to orgasm. I don't feel bad, or empty, or anything negative. Very pleasant, no problems. But absolutely nada on the ecstacy.
I want to emphasize that I'm very aware of my energy patterns, and nothing's closed down in the least. It's as if bliss were an overlay, and that overlay's been removed.
I've never read about a case like this. I do know that after the initial blush/rush of an opening, the bliss dies down into a soft glow. But that's not what this is. Again, a switch turned. And I'm a little ambivalent!
I'll update tomorrow.
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Edited by - AYPforum on Feb 05 2007 08:59:43 AM |
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Ute
39 Posts |
Posted - Nov 06 2005 : 11:14:05 PM
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Jim,
I experience something similar.I know we are not supposed to be attached, but ecstacy is pretty attractive. Makes me always wonder if I'm doing something wrong in my practice when it leaves.
Blessings,
Ute |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Nov 06 2005 : 11:29:49 PM
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Ute/ Jim,
Same over hear. I have recently, for a couple of months now, been much lower on the ecstacy and bliss front too. Can't explain it either, wisdom is still accessible, heart feels open, good calmness, seeing lot's of energy and it all seems pretty balanced etc.
I have rare mements these days where the bliss and ecstacy feel present for a brief moment, but not the same levels I felt prior. Also makes me feel like Ute, that perhaps I am doing something wrong in the practices. I feel pretty strongly aboout ignoring these variations and practicing for practice sake(and not for the experiences), but when it is so much less than say 3 months ago and you don't have a precedent, it gets you a little worried that something isn't right?
When I think back, I did go to the 2nd mantra enhancement a couple of months back, but I think it (the bliss/ ecstacy) may have already been lower by then. I have been stable in my practices since then but I definitely have been even more flat since this enhancement. Maybe the body is behind and is catching up?
Anthem11 |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2005 : 09:35:38 AM
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Is this just the beginning of real pure consciousness? The fire (of pure consciousness) without the smoke of bliss? |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2005 : 10:24:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Is this just the beginning of real pure consciousness? The fire (of pure consciousness) without the smoke of bliss?
Gosh, I'd just love to play it as such. Yes, I've reached some unfathomably high level and just don't need that ecstatic KID'S stuff anymore. Like the guy with the white irises in Star Trek, I've just GROWN BEYOND YOU ALL NOW. YOU SHOULD HAVE KILLED ME WHILE YOU STILL COULD. Hahahahahahahaha.
Well, I actually have been reaching some new things in meditation, but I have a loong way to go. There's lots of things I haven't gotten to yet. If I miss a single practice session, I revert fast to my old graspy/irritible/malcontent self (though it's not as deeply burned in, and I can catch myself fairly easily). And people are still people...I can feel their energy and I'm naturally/instinctively empathetic (emotionally), but I can't feel any deep affinity/unity. In place of jewels in my stomach, I have only Rolaids. And nectar shmectar. Oh, and I had a small bout of road rage yesterday. I could go on.
I'm having trouble explaining. First point I need to make is that the bliss had been more or less 24/7 (IF I'm practicing real regularly). This isn't just something that changed during practice. Second point is I'm still feeling bliss, but am not interpreting as bliss somehow, even if I try. It's everything but the interpretation. I thought maybe I'd fully penetrated past the veil of distinctions (I've been finding it increasingly easy to simply perceive without coloring my perception with analysis, judgement, etc). But I tried orgasm, listening to favorite music, and both brought all the usual pleasure. And I'm still making lots of distinctions and judgements unless I concentrate. Meditatively, in terms of stillness, I'm making strides but still surely behind a number of people in this forum. I'm advanced with energy (hence the bliss), but less so with stillness.
More likely is 1. something physical is going on in my brain, perhaps an adjustment due to all the energy I'm bringing up (my practice has given me a pitta imbalance, though not a drastic one), or 2. it's an act of grace to help me move on in my practice.
I'm sticking with #2, and it's a heckuva great challenge. I often wonder if wine buffs would care about wine if it didn't make them high. I've deemed myself detached to my bliss, and had a deep conviction that I'm going for something deeper. Well...put up or shut up. Practice is now easier (less crashing distraction)...but some part of me is in a small panic, trying desperately to get the sensation back. This situation is quintessential yoga, and I'm enjoying it. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2005 : 10:47:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
Like the guy with the white irises in Star Trek, I've just GROWN BEYOND YOU ALL NOW. YOU SHOULD HAVE KILLED ME WHILE YOU STILL COULD. Hahahahahahahaha.
This is true, but we never knew where you lived.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2005 : 10:57:53 AM
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quote:
This is true, but we never knew where you lived.
Rigel 5 |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2005 : 11:25:57 AM
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Anthem and Ute
Every single opening I've ever had, be it from a millimeter's worth of progress in touching toes or from letting go a drab more in meditation, has tossed me a cookie. Nice Jim, good boy Jim, here's your cookie. The cosmic scientist turned on the juice and my pleasure centers were zipped a little bit.
The first few times it happened and the feeling faded, I tried desperately to rekindle it. Then I learned that the burst of bliss (the "cookie") is a temporary byproduct of opening, and that all cookies, in time, fade into a deeper warm glow. I've come to treasure the glow, and to view the more dramatic peaks of bliss with a connoisseur's bemused detachment. Over time, the warm glow built and built until it was 24/7 bliss.
What I need to stress (and you guys may be right with me here....or you may be misunderstanding, I don't know) is that the warm glow totally, utterly, completely ceased.
But NOTHING has changed, I"m quite sure of it. I feel all the same energy patterns, but there's no pleasure whatsoever. And I need to stress that it flipped like a switch. Instant. Just after dinner last night (decent enough Mexican food...that can't be it).
Again, I'm not saying it's a bad thing necessarily.
Is that what you guys had? |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2005 : 11:26:24 AM
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Hi All:
There is ecstasy. There is bliss. There is ecstatic bliss. And there are plateaus in experience. Where we are in all of this is far less important (and often unknowable) than our ongoing practices which keep it coming. But here are a few benchmarks that might be helpful:
On the difference between ecstasy, bliss and divine love see lesson #113 - http://www.aypsite.org/113.html
From the lesson you can gather that bliss is unchanging (an aspect of pure bliss consciousness) and ecstasy is changing (pranic energy flow). With ecstasy, there is the element of "friction" in the subtle nerves caused by obstructions that are being flushed out by pranic energy. That is the dynamic aspect of ecstasy. In the end, or during plateaus, more energy will flow with less friction, which brings us into the subtle joining of ecstasy and bliss -- ecstatic bliss. That is where ecstasy (dynamic) is moving in stillness. The divine paradox.
When it gets to that stage, the process is still hankering to go somewhere. Where? Out into the world as outpouring divine love. That is where karma yoga really takes off. Then there is a whole new realm of flow, ecstasy and the friction of energy moving through obstructions leading to ecstatic bliss again in the outer world. That is stillness in action in the world, flowing endlessly out from us. That is why we end up saying, "Your evolution is my evolution." We're all in it together. The One is the many and the many are the One. So yoga ultimately looks far beyond the individual body/mind. It is an organic process that keeps expanding. I mention this because it is the next step after the stillness of ecstatic bliss - the outpouring to unity, which flies on the wings of divine love.
How to know if we are on a plateau or in ecstatic bliss for good? Just ramp up the pranic energy practices a bit - spinal breathing, siddhasana, mudras, bandhas, etc. We will find out soon enough. Either way, we will be flowing outward as divine love in due course. It is our destiny.
The guru is in you.
PS -- Also, we do get used to advancements very fast, and therefore will often feel less contrast with the same experience, and sooner or later wanting more... That is part of what drives us out beyond our individual development to aid in the development of others...
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2005 : 11:40:21 AM
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Agreed with all, Yogani. But I must stress that this was both instant and precipitous.
I'm not going to worry about it, I'm going to use it for my sadhana. I'm just reporting in. |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2005 : 11:45:11 AM
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Hi Jim:
It can happen, and you have the right attitude about it. Just another step on the journey...
The guru is in you. |
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Ute
39 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2005 : 2:20:53 PM
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Jim, I don’t know if we are talking exactly about the same thing, but I have experienced on and off bliss. I have had times where I lived in incredible unity consciousness, which is all pervading, peaceful bliss; and I have experienced various levels of ecstasy. Sometimes it stops abruptly, sometimes it fades, but I still have the awareness of energy. There could be several things going on and I’m sure it’s part of the process. On a deep level, I’m just committed to the practice and go with what shows up. On the ego level I sometimes second-guess myself and judge if I am doing “well”, or not. It’s silly , when I think about it: I am doing something right when I have a good experience and something not quite right when things are flat or however, not so satisfying?? I see my practice as digging for gold: did dig dig..nugget..dig dig ..big nugget…did dig dig..little nugget. Seeing it in that light, the digging is at least as important as the nugget. The nugget lets me know I’m on the right track to the treasure and strengthens my enthusiasm, and gives me a taste of what I’m after, but the digging does the work. Off course, there is room to look at technicalities, looking for the right tool and making sure I know how to use it properly. I could see, too, where picking up a new tool could, for a while, make for slower going because now I’m now digging in harder matrix that I couldn’t touch before. (Although I often have a brief instant response to a new practice to show me I’m on the right track). Sometimes I strike a vein that seems to have a direct link to the source. Should I stay there, or keep digging to actually get to the source? I’m digging.
Dig?
Blessings
Ute
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2005 : 11:28:25 PM
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Everyone has made some great points and the lesson reminder from Yogani was very helpful too. Plateaus come and go and as Ute mentions, it is the digging that matters.
We all speak of bliss and ecstasy but what they actually mean to each of us is probably extremely unique to ourselves. I experience what I consider small degrees of each of these on a daily basis in and outside of practice times. Small degrees today may have seemed big 6 months ago, as Yogani points out, when there was more friction and it was new compared to not being there at all.
I have the deep down feeling from the words of the Yogananda's and other great Sages (and those rare moments of grace in the past, where the intensity of bliss and ecstasy were beyond description), that the bliss and ecstasy experiences we speak of today will seem like drops of water compared to heavy rain fall in the future. I think AYP is relatively new to all of us on the grand scheme of things (having just had its 2nd anniversary), and I look forward to having this conversation again with all of you after its 20th anniversary!
thanks for the perspectives everyone,
A
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Edited by - Anthem on Nov 07 2005 11:32:02 PM |
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rabar
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2005 : 11:36:49 PM
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Jim, Ute, I wonder if perhaps bliss might be defined as 'down-flowing' from above - Yogani mentioned it in his lesson as the Shiva energy as differentiated from the Shakti ecstatic energy.
The curious thing is that this 'down-flowing' energy Aurobindo describes as The Mother Force, which he see as different from the up-welling Kundalini.
What I experience these days is that when I 'still' myself to one-pointedness, my heartbeat becomes very all-pervasive, a strong pulse throughout my body. At first this distracted me, but now I just melt into it.
I may have mentioned elsewhere the two charts I have been developing, one by combining the various charts in John Curtis Gowan's "Trance, Art and Creativity" http://www.csun.edu/edpsy/Gowan/content.html
and then adding more information. This is an attempt to correlate across the various spiritual traditions and come up with a measuring 'scale' that would allow us to understand better the very subjective aspects of these states we are discussing.
www.raysender.com/gowanchart.html
According to this chart, I tend to 'cruise' during my waking hours around or near 50 renas (acronym for rapture-ecstasy- nirvana attributes), defined across the chart as 'Amorous Abstraction, Orison of Union, Savitarka Samadhi, 1st jhana.' With about ten tracheal in-out growls (purrs/snores) I can bounce myself up to 55.
This purr/snore exercise is explained in detail at:
http://www.raysender.com/snore.html
Also I have put together a chart of the attributes of the jhanas (absorptions) as defined in Buddhism. As is pointed out in the jhana teachings, ecstasy tends to drop away in the higher (non-body) absorptions to be replaced by equanimity. Am I correct?
http://www.raysender.com/jhanaschart.htm
Also, Jim, I notice that in Nirananda Samadhi-3rd Jhana- Equanimity, bliss drops away. Could that be what's happening?
May we all go all the way in this lifetime!
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2005 : 02:47:33 AM
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Rabar, I hate to say this, because you say some stuff (the "melting" into your heartbeat) that sounds like you're doing well and not getting too stuck and don't need the following suggestion, but....all the charts and levels and taking of spiritual temperature....idunno. One thing I've taken away from all this is that as long as you're asking yourself how far along you are, you're nowhere (same in many pursuits in life...if you ask yourself if you're a True Painter, you aren't. True painters are too wrapped up in simply painting to ever ask the question).
There's a lot of temptation to add things (spiritual book knowledge, interesting insights, feelings of spiritual self-esteem) as one travels this path. I'm trying to go the other way. Subtractive. Dropping baggage, over and over, like the circus clowns coming out of the car, I always have more luggage to toss into the pit. Less and less and less me, more and more and more just God (aka The Flow, aka Spirit, aka Unity, aka Emptyness, etc). When there seems nothing left to drop or surrender, I dry heave. Surrendering is dynamic. There's no such thing as surrendered...just surrendering.
quote:
As is pointed out in the jhana teachings, ecstasy tends to drop away in the higher (non-body) absorptions to be replaced by equanimity. Am I correct?
http://www.raysender.com/jhanaschart.htm
As I said above, any opening produces some quantity of ecstasy, and it's always short-lived...it just cumulates into a pervasive warm glow (aka equanimity). People who get addicted to the ecstasy get panicky when this happens. That's why there are people who do 35 minute shoulderstands...they just need that buzz. Kind of sad. As Yogani says, the glow grows, and it's a lot better than the buzzy peaks.
quote:
Also, Jim, I notice that in Nirananda Samadhi-3rd Jhana- Equanimity, bliss drops away. Could that be what's happening?
I honestly don't think so.
Though, interestingly, I've been horrendously busy lately, have been really slacking on practice, and now, when I do practice, the bliss is back. When I resume rigorous practice, if it goes away again, I'll figure that there indeed is a "gate" of some sort. Or who knows. Onward. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Nov 20 2005 03:05:08 AM |
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rabar
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - Nov 21 2005 : 2:40:24 PM
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All your points are well taken, Jim, although I still think there is a need for some sort of language-signposts-map so that when folks talk on forums such as these we can understand one another better. The heart knows the way, but the head still needs answers.
As the kids used to say, "Are we there yet?" But if you have to ask, as you pointed out, you may be going in the wrong direction. I dunno, though, because it seems as if maps are important. See Ken Wilber, and also the Spiral Dynamics folks. Quoting from the essay "A General Introduction To Comprehensive Mapmaking" at http://www.cejournal.org/GRD/Mapmaking.htm
from the section titled
Spiral Dynamics
Clare Graves & Don Beck: The Second Tier: Spiral Dynamics
In the relentless attempt to construct a more efficient, visionary, and complete model of consciousness. few such models have had as much practical impact as Spiral Dynamics (SD). In their book by the same name, Don Beck and Christopher Cowan took the psychological principles as outlined and proposed by Clare Graves[50] and expanded them to include the "fledgling science of memetics"[51]and (more recently) the sophisticated theories of Ken Wilber thus creating Spiral Dynamics Integral (SDi)[52]: "Spiral Dynamics, (is) a bio-psycho-social-spiritual conceptual system that describes how and when worldviews emerge, and how they form themselves naturally into spirals of complexity. The Spiral is not a cookie-cutter; it is a process."[53]
. . . .
The most recent incarnation of Spiral Dynamics has been carried out by Don Beck in collaboration with John Petersen of the Arlington Institute,[56] Dr. Ichak Adizes, Alan Tonkin, Evan Fowler, and several others who have continued to refine Spiral Dynamics into what it is today--SDi. SDi is the name formally given to the addition of Ken Wilber's model (4Q/8L)[57] into the equation: "An aggressive and comprehensive All Quadrants/All Levels strategy designed to address the asymmetrics and gaps in human development by mobilizing and aligning our resources in a systemic manner so none be left behind."[58]
Spiral Dynamics is organized around waves of human unfolding called vMEMEs. A vMEME is shorthand for value meme. Briefly, a meme has been called a "mind virus" because it behaves like a virus though I find calling it a virus is a bit too value laden.[59] It is an independent idea, value, set of thoughts, beliefs, etc. that has the tendency to "infect" or be passed like a virus from person to person, group to group, or culture to culture. Memes are also likened to genes yet they are not physical in any way. In fact, strangely enough they would have no existence outside of human minds yet they exhibit properties that seem to be self-creating (autopoiesis) even at the cost of human lives.[60]
. . . .
Spiral Dynamics outlines eight distinct and basic vMEMEs with the potential for more to be added as time and consciousness develop. These levels have been assigned different colors to represent their respective characteristics and to serve as convenient signifiers. Furthermore, they are divided into two "tiers." Again, I will use Wilber's summary of the vMEMEs to describe the distinct characteristics of each stage:
First Tier:
1. Beige: Archaic-Instinctual. The level of basic survival; food, water, warmth, sex, and safety have priority. Uses habits and instincts just to survive . . . 0.1 percent of the adult population, 0 percent power.
2. Purple: Magical-Animistic. Thinking is animistic; magical spirits, good and bad, swarm the earth leaving blessings, curses, and spells that determine events. Forms into ethnic tribes. The spirits exist in ancestors and bond the tribe . . . 10 percent of the population, 1 percent of the power.
3. Red: Power Gods. First emergence of a distinct self from the tribe; powerful, impulsive, egocentric, heroic . . . The basis of feudal empires power and glory. The world is a jungle full of threats and predators . . . 20 percent of the population, 5 percent of the power.
4. Blue: Conformist Rule. Life has meaning, direction, and purpose, with outcomes determined by an all-powerful Other or Order. This righteous Order enforces a code of conduct based on absolutist and unvarying principles of "right" and "wrong" . . . Rigid social hierarchies . . . Law and order; impulsivity controlled through guilt; concrete-literal fundamentalist belief; obedience to the rule of the Order . . . 40 percent of the population, 30 percent of the power.
5. Orange: Scientific Achievement. At this wave, the self "escapes" from the "herd mentality" of blue, and seeks truth and meaning in individualistic terms--hypothetico-deductive, experimental, objective, mechanistic, operational--"scientific" in the typical sense. The world is a rational and well-oiled machine with natural laws that can be learned, mastered, and manipulated for one's own purposes. Highly achievement oriented, especially (in America) toward materialistic gains . . . 30 percent of the population, 50 percent of the power.
6. Green: The Sensitive Self.[62] Communitarian, human bonding, ecological sensitivity, networking. The human spirit must be freed from greed, dogma, and divisiveness; feelings and caring supercede cold rationality; cherishing of the earth, Gaia, life. Against hierarchy; establishes lateral bonding and linking . . . Emphasis on dialogue, relationships . . . this worldview is often called pluralistic relativism . . . 10 percent of the population, 15 percent of the power.
Second Tier:
7. Yellow: Integrative. Life is a kaleidoscope of natural hierarchies [holarchies], systems, and forms. Flexibility, spontaneity, and functionality have the highest priority. Differences and pluralities can be integrated into interdependent, natural flows . . . Knowledge and competency should supersede rank, power, status, or group. The prevailing world order is theresult of the existence of different levels of reality (memes) and the inevitable patterns of movement up and down the dynamic spiral. Good governance facilitates the emergence of entities throughout the levels of increasing complexity (nested hierarchy).
8. Turquoise: Holistic. Universal holistic system, holons/waves of integrative energies; unites feeling with knowledge [centaur]; multiple levels interwoven into one conscious system. Universal order, but in a living, conscious fashion, not based on external rules (blue) or group bonds (green). A "grand unification" is possible, in theory and in actuality. Sometimes involves the emergence of a new spirituality as a meshwork of all existence. Turquoise thinking uses the entire spiral; sees multiple levels of interaction; detects harmonics, the mystical forces, and the pervasive flow-states that permeate any organization.
Second-tier thinking: 1 percent of the population, 5 percent of the power.[63]
The difference between the two tiers is crucial. The overriding characteristic of first-tier thinking is the inability to perceive the world from the perspective of the other vMEMEs. First-tier thinking believes its worldview to be "better" than any of the other memes, including second-tier. People in the first tier have a chronic lack of ability to step out their values. It cannot grasp the entire spectrum of interior and cultural development. Second-tier thinking, on the other hand, doesn't have this problem. Second-tier thinking is characterized by the ability to consider the other vMEMEs in their own right and is not afraid of dynamic hierarchical systems based upon this meta-perspective. It is in the second-tier where all worldviews are beginning to be integrated and balanced into a "higher" way of perceiving.[64]It is a multileveled, multidimensional, richly holarchical view.[65] Second-tier thinking is rare. However, according to many, it is emerging on a greater scale now than it ever has especially with many "green memers" moving up the spiral at the same time:
With only 1 percent of the population at second-tier thinking (and only 0.1 percent at turquoise), second-tier consciousness is relatively rare because it is now the "leading edge" of collective human evolution. As examples, Beck and Cowan mention items ranging from Teilhard de Chardin's noosphere[66] to the growth of transpersonal psychology, with increases in frequency definitely on the way--and even higher memes still in the offing . . . [67]
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
I'm working on a bumpersticker that reads:
"Stressed in traffic? Flare your nostrils not your temper. On the inhale, s-l-o-w-l-y."
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2007 : 08:59:43 AM
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Bliss Goes Dead
