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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
 Posted - May 10 2009 : 4:08:28 PM
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Hi All,
Here's an interesting and insightful overview on the nature of thought and thoughts as it relates to spiritual practice and realization, from the Sophian Gnosticism forum (it's a thread; members ask questions, and Tau Malachi answers them -- so if you're not up for a ton of reading, scroll down to Tau Malachi's posts, specifically).
On the Nature of Thought
Peace, Love & Other Fun Stuff,
Kirtanman
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2009 : 10:45:47 AM
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all thoughts are good.
They are nothing to be avoided like tau malachi wants to do. Thoughts are just meaningless until you put meaning on them.
If you want thoughts to lessen, just relax.
More importantly, if you focus your thoughts only on whats going on in the present moment, you will find a mysterious timeless state. Try it. Thoughts can be really great if you use them, instead of them using you. |
Edited by - alwayson on May 13 2009 1:45:22 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2009 : 1:29:05 PM
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I agree with Alwayson  |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2009 : 7:25:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
I agree with Alwayson
Awesome. Who woulda thought?
Okay ... so .... guys (Konchok, AlwaysOn) ... (and everyone) .... in discussions of this type, ascertaining what is truly being said in the recommended information, before "jumping to disagreement" ... might be helpful to all involved.
Unless I'm greatly mistaken .... we're all "about" awakening-realization here (at the AYP Forum), not debate - yes?
Below is an excerpt of part of the linked thread; I'll be more than happy to discuss any of it -- and/or any portions either of you, or anyone else might care to excerpt.
It's (discussions here at the AYP Forum) not about right or wrong *opinions*; per both of your apparent familiarity with certain Buddhist concepts --it's about the knowing and actions which serve awakening-realization-enlightenment.
As I'm guessing you'll both agree:
Limited mind is not only the biggest obstacle to realization; it's ultimately the only obstacle - and obstacles exist only on the "side" of the dream, anyway.
Having clarity on the nature of limited mind, working with it efficaciously, and utilizing clarity on the nature of limited mind and/or thought ... in order to realize the unbound awareness of realization-enlightenment -- is simply pragmatic -- and is something all all Buddhist paths support, in principle if not in identical practices.
It might interest you both to know that Tau Malachi has a background in Vajrayana -- do a search at the Sophian site on Vajrayana for details.
He's also enlightened.
I've found enlightened folks (<- or "enlightenment shining through the body-mind of apparent folks" ... or however that would be said advaidogmatically .....  ) are actually really helpful to listen to ... because often, their "vibe" - their consciousness itself - carries a power that words alone simply cannot do.
Hope this is helpful.
Here's the excerpt:
"Now, in the process of the mastery of mind, of thought and imagination, when we learn to concentrate and silence the mind, and are able to abide in that state of pure awareness, bringing thought and thinking into cessation, or if not into cessation, passing beyond thought and thinking, we discover a consciousness beyond mental consciousness – we experience a supramental consciousness that does not rely upon thought and thinking at all, but rather upon silent volition, conscious intention, very different from the mental consciousness, even at the peak of mental consciousness, cosmic consciousness. In this consciousness beyond the mental consciousness is an incredible manifesting force – an unbelievable power; if with concentrated thought amazing wonders can transpire, with this supramental force, this will and love, even greater wonders come to pass – wonders that transpire by this force transpire in an instant.
In this we may know and understand another reason for the full mastery of mind and thought – so that we might recognize and realize the supramental consciousness-force within and behind the mental consciousness, vital consciousness and material consciousness.
This supramental consciousness is the true consciousness of Christ – the Supernal or Messianic Consciousness.
All of this, of course, is founded upon the mastery of the mind, thought and desire – the full development of our mental and vital consciousness, and the key to this development of the generation of the presence of awareness; to master the mind, and our thoughts and desires, we must be aware, awake and alert."
In the Intention of the Awakening of All,
Kirtanman
PS- By the way, being quick to judge the "duality aspect" of practices or outlooks which can help awaken us out of the limitations of "duality-mind" is the same trap many neo-Advaitans fall into: "Non-duality is real, practices imply duality, therefore practices are worthless."
The more mature non-dual paths (Vajrayana seemingly among them) understand that practices, from the side of the dream can help awaken one *out* of the dreaming (hence the Buddha's own six-year holding of BodhiTreeAsana. )
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Edited by - Kirtanman on May 13 2009 7:42:09 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2009 : 7:40:38 PM
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"Every opinion that appears in our mind is ignorance and shows that we do not recognize the nature of our mind." Drubpon Rinpoche
Not disagreeing, only sharing. The Buddha taught that the bodhisattva's samadhi is beyond the realization of infinite consciousness. Infinite consciousness is within the four formless realms of Samsara. Thus, the nature of mind is beyond consciousness, because consciousness is relative to individual or collective karma. Cosmic consciousness is part of limited mind as you word it, because it contains contents, for example, a cosmos and beings.
The word Mahayana and Vajrayana practitioners use is Emptiness. Emptiness is not consciousness. Though, empty awareness is closer. Emptiness is the nature of mind which is clear, pure and without reference point.
Thought is karma. Karma is fixation and attachment. The nature of thought is focus and attachment. Attachment is the result of discrimination due to likes, dislikes and confusion. Samsara is the realm of likes, dislikes and confusion. The root of Samsara is confusion, which is ignorance. The method to uproot the ignorance is to recognize the nature of mind, continue in it, with no attachment, no focus, hope or fear. The fruit, buddha-nature, is without fear and hope. Each time you are in that nature, you are awake. Each time you are focused and attached, you are asleep.
Practice is re-awakening over and over until you become well habituated and don't fall back asleep. Some auxiliary practice are often taught to assist in not falling back asleep. However, the main practice is repetitive habituation to the awakened state. It is a very straight forward, tried and true method.
These are not my opinions. Rather, they are the Buddha's teachings, and the teachings of the Sangha to which I belong. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on May 13 2009 7:57:23 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2009 : 8:29:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
"Every opinion that appears in our mind is ignorance and shows that we do not recognize the nature of our mind." Drubpon Rinpoche
Not disagreeing, only sharing. The Buddha taught that the bodhisattva's samadhi is beyond the realization of infinite consciousness. Infinite consciousness is within the four formless realms of Samsara. Thus, the nature of mind is beyond consciousness, because consciousness is relative to individual or collective karma. Cosmic consciousness is part of limited mind as you word it, because it contains contents, for example, a cosmos and beings.
The word Mahayana and Vajrayana practitioners use is Emptiness. Emptiness is not consciousness. Though, empty awareness is closer. Emptiness is the nature of mind which is clear, pure and without reference point.
Thought is karma. Karma is fixation and attachment. The nature of thought is focus and attachment. Attachment is the result of discrimination due to likes, dislikes and confusion. Samsara is the realm of likes, dislikes and confusion. The root of Samsara is confusion, which is ignorance. The method to uproot the ignorance is to recognize the nature of mind, continue in it, with no attachment, no focus, hope or fear. The fruit, buddha-nature, is without fear and hope. Each time you are in that nature, you are awake. Each time you are focused and attached, you are asleep.
Practice is re-awakening over and over until you become well habituated and don't fall back asleep. Some auxiliary practice are often taught to assist in not falling back asleep. However, the main practice is repetitive habituation to the awakened state. It is a very straight forward, tried and true method.
These are not my opinions. Rather, they are the Buddha's teachings, and the teachings of the Sangha to which I belong.
I agree with Konchok!
Hey, this is fun!
What now, though?
Hang out, and have a good time, I guess!
Really good post, Konchok - thanks.
And, by the way - for anyone willing to read all pertinent information with an open mind (and/or "as open as possible under the circumstances" ) - you'll see that Konchok's post above, Tau Malachi's words (excerpted in my post above - and anywhere; his books are well worth reading) & AYP teachings all agree on every point stated above.
At first this may not seem to be the case, per a quick read of:
"The method to uproot the ignorance is to recognize the nature of mind, continue in it, with no attachment, no focus, hope or fear."
... until it's recognized that all of AYP is designed to help, and does help, practitioners to "recognize the nature of mind" -- with some solid info as well on "continue in it, with no attachment, no focus, hope or fear."
No attachment ... is discussed quite a bit in the lessons, books and forum.
"No focus" may seem a bit less true, but it's not -- it's actually a piece of the practice of "re-awakening" over and over.
Ditto no hope or fear ... which are both fluctuations of thought-mind; memory dancing with imagination to the tune of cycling birth and death.
"No attachment, no focus, no focus, hope or fear" are not separate things to watch for or do -- they're qualities *of* being in the clear-awareness of awakening/re-awakening.
And if they arise - that's perfect, too ... in terms of coming to know oneself as clear-awareness, completely.
Enlightenment isn't bound by time - clear-awareness precedes and contains the concept of time ... so it's not as much "climb-fall, climb-fall" as it is freshly creating the wholeness of clear-awareness until it *all* becomes recreation!
Re-awakening/re-creating clear-mind is *very* powerful, by the way --- if you've {whoever is reading this} had the good fortune of experiencing true, clear, empty awareness -- if you know the "feel", the experience - just re-create it, intensely, repeatedly ... and it becomes the "default" ... it becomes *obvious* - "Ahh - *This* is who I actually *am* - this clarity - not all those tortured thoughts and emotional constrictions and storms!"
As a practice, it's beyond worthwhile -- it's worth everything.
Intending the Awakening of All,
Kirtanman |
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stevenbhow
Japan
352 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2009 : 8:38:35 PM
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"Practice is re-awakening over and over until you become well habituated and don't fall back asleep. Some auxiliary practice are often taught to assist in not falling back asleep. However, the main practice is repetitive habituation to the awakened state. It is a very straight forward, tried and true method."
Fantastic advice, but I guess the question, at least for me, would be, "How do you know when you are in the awakened state?" Don't you need consciousness to be aware of the awakened state? |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2009 : 01:21:53 AM
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There are pointing out instructions for recognizing the natural state. The simplest version comes from Milarepa. You investigate the space in front of your face: What color? What size? What does it rest upon? What location? You inquire like this until you gain a genuine experience of clarity about it. Then, you repeat this inquiry into the mind.
The process works better when you have taken refuge under the guidance of a meditation master.
When you rest without focus or attachment in this state you are in the awakened state. You won't be thinking, "this is my consciousness," because that is a focus. You rest without pinpointing anything or making any effort to discern what state you are in. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2009 : 06:33:35 AM
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A metaphore just came to me on how I experience this re-awakening (wobbling in and out of time I use to call it)... It's like watching those pictures with black and white dots that if you stare at them long enough will become 3D and show beautiful and wonderous motives that are totally hidden for anyone who cannot find the right "tuning in" with the eyes. When it happens - there's NO DOUBT that something shifted significantly and made the picture undescribably more enjoyable than from the start. There's a new SEEING and KNOWING there's something more in those dots than you saw before. The discovery of the NEW picture is instant without you doing anything in particular. There is no way to decide when the shift will happen - it just does after staring long enough and having the right intention of wanting to be able to see it. With practice, the ability to shift becomes automatic and easier. And it's impossible to describe to anyone else what it looks like... You gotta see it for yourself. And you gotta be relaxed, and practice... and have a strong will and longing for the shift to happen... but you can never force it... then the dots will still be dots instead of a beautiful mystery.
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2009 : 12:37:19 PM
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Jesus said, "Have faith; do not doubt; believe, and you will have whatever you ask for in prayer."
The Emptiness is an unmistakable experience, a doubt eraser. Then, it is just a matter of doing the work of sitting down and meditating, instead of getting caught up in the the same old Samsara drama. |
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Jo-self
USA
225 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2009 : 4:33:01 PM
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Kirtanman:
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
It might interest you both to know that Tau Malachi has a background in Vajrayana -- do a search at the Sophian site on Vajrayana for details.
He's also enlightened.
I've found enlightened folks (<- or "enlightenment shining through the body-mind of apparent folks" ... or however that would be said advaidogmatically ..... ) are actually really helpful to listen to ... because often, their "vibe" - their consciousness itself - carries a power that words alone simply cannot do.
I read Tau Malachi's post. Very good. Shows deep grasp of the Unknowable (and always unknowable, IMHO).
I'm curious, why do you say he's enlightened? Are there signs or criteria for that? I didn't think one being could determine if another is enlightened. Followers of a Guru will say he is Enlightened, but that is expected and means nothing.
-- jo-self
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2009 : 9:09:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jo-self
Kirtanman:
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
He's also enlightened.
I've found enlightened folks (<- or "enlightenment shining through the body-mind of apparent folks" ... or however that would be said advaidogmatically ..... ) are actually really helpful to listen to ... because often, their "vibe" - their consciousness itself - carries a power that words alone simply cannot do.
quote:
I read Tau Malachi's post. Very good. Shows deep grasp of the Unknowable (and always unknowable, IMHO).
... far as I know.
As Adyashanti says: "The mystery is: only the mystery is."
quote:
I'm curious, why do you say he's enlightened?
Mostly because a deeply profound teaching was passed off as worthless, and the entire reason I had posted it, is because it has worth.
Because I say so?
Not even a little bit.
Because being unclear about the true nature of mind keeps identification stuck in the untrue nature of mind.
Most spiritual/yogic practitioners could save years (at least) on their relative paths ... if not much more ... by realizing that seeing through the thought-self is the key to everything. Literally.
In my experiences, certain practices help to evolve/purify the body-mind enough so that that's even possible -- hence AYP's essential role in awakening for quite a few of us, here.
As you noticed Jo-self ... Tau Malachi clearly gets it.
So does Yogani; so do a relative handful of other teachers (Adyashanti, Nithyananda, Eckhart Tolle, Byron Katie, etc.)
We all *are* it - it's just a matter of whether it's been recognized yet, or not.
If it (one's true nature - the One true nature of mind-awareness) hasn't been recognized - or just barely has been -- both the information and the "vibe" (for lack of a more definitive term --- which isn't a bad thing) of an enlightened (aka realized, aka awakened, aka insert your preferred term for Liberation from the Wheel of Faux-Called Birth & Faux-Called Death HERE) teacher/friend who selflessly and accurate helps to guide awareness to its own infinite light .... the value of both that teacher, and that teaching are effectively infinite.
Have you realized?
quote:
Are there signs or criteria for that?
I sure hope not!
quote:
I didn't think one being could determine if another is enlightened.
Apparently, I was absent that day .....
Certain traditions "confirm enlightenment".
This teaches us something very important.
This teaches us that certain traditions have a great sense of humor!
[quote]
Followers of a Guru will say he is Enlightened, but that is expected and means nothing.
-- jo-self
Not all followers of every guru (some know, and saying so can be helpful to other sincere seekers.)
The enlightenment of a given guru doesn't matter so much; whether or not they can help *you* recognize / realize enlightenment .... well, now ... that kinda counts for everything.
As Paramahamsa Nithyananda says:
"I'm not here to convince you I am God; I'm here to convince you that *you* are God!"
In general though, I agree with you:
Most say their guru is enlightened because it's the cultural thing to do ("Of *course* my guru is enlightened! If he/she wasn't, they couldn't very well be my guru, now could they? Cogito Ergo Samsara ...." <- "I think, therefore I cycle endlessly on the imaginary wheeel of birth-and-death" ).
Sometimes, the guru in question is enlightened.
Often not.
How would I know?
I dunno.
It's all a lot more fluid than thought-selves worshipping at the altar of the rational can ever release.
Basically, it's a Pratyabhijnahrdayam thing .... a Recognition of the Heart thing ... there's enough experience as a certain point that you can just kinda tell.
Do I have any vested interest in making that claim?
(That Tau Malachi is enlightened?)
"Zero. Zip. Nada", as they say.
I'll tell you Yogani's enlightened, too.
Yogani won't agree - at least not outright - largely because it's least applicable from that (subjective//Self) view; I'd almost bet Tau Malachi won't, either -- except under one circumstance: if it clearly serves the greater good *of* enlightenment to somehow say so, in the moment.
Which is exactly why I'm saying Tau Malachi is enlightened. Yogani too, for this matter.
Because from *this* view .... it's about indicating:
Truth can be found HERE.
That's all.
Because realization points to all of itself.
Have you realized?
It's basically a way of saying:
The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth ... is being articulated *here* ... and you can trust the articulation, and the articulator.
Because ultimately, the only one really articulating enlightenment - the only articulator of enlightenment - is .... the only One.
Intending the Awakening of All,
Kirtanman |
Edited by - Kirtanman on May 14 2009 9:39:06 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2009 : 9:24:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Re-awakening/re-creating clear-mind is *very* powerful, by the way --- if you've {whoever is reading this} had the good fortune of experiencing true, clear, empty awareness -- if you know the "feel", the experience - just re-create it, intensely, repeatedly ... and it becomes the "default" ... it becomes *obvious* - "Ahh - *This* is who I actually *am* - this clarity - not all those tortured thoughts and emotional constrictions and storms!"
As a practice, it's beyond worthwhile -- it's worth everything.
Intending the Awakening of All,
Kirtanman
Quick Addendum:
Yes, in order to "re-awaken" .... you have to first awaken.
Recognizing the true nature of mind is clearly and replicably possible through Buddhist paths and Yogic paths ... both sets of systems have a relatively good track record, and a whole lot of cross-over (especially in the Tantric schools), both philosophically, and in terms of practices.
For most of us, yogic practices (i.e. AYP) count for a LOT in terms of "prepping" the body-mind, and creating a realization-rich environment, so to speak.
Various "pure" paths (aka Zen) *work* -- but they seem *really* bumpy .. and that's said from the perspective of a yogi who's experienced enough to know that awakening is *always* bumpy .... AYP has just found a blend of energy-practice, still-mind practice and inquiry-recognition practice .... to create a system that seems to be both the most smooth and the most rapid in the history of ......... well, history, actually.
Sometimes people seem so intent on discussing what they read, or what they think they know, or what so and so says .... that they miss this.
The ancients knew a lot ...... but they didn't know more than we do.
We have a greater willingness to synthesize -- to experience this all as a technology ... and to experience body, mind, spirit and self as inherent aspects of this technology.
What's the most powerful spiritual system in the entire Universe?
The one that works for you.
And so, if you feel drawn to Buddhist teachings, by all means - go with what you're drawn to; AYP is not Hindu, or Buddhist or any "ist" - it is, as the name says: Advanced Yoga Practices.
My main reason for *this* post, is to say -- without negating anything Konchok said, because what he wrote above is all potentially very useful -- is that if the nature of the mind still feels like a significant mystery to you, and you're practicing AYP .... just keep practicing AYP .... and don't worry about it.
Is that approach *the* most efficacious one for you?
I have no way of knowing that.
Does that (AYP) approach work?
Yes.
Intending the Awakening of All,
Kirtanman
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2009 : 9:25:15 PM
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Hi emc - thanks for this!
Good stuff! Good metaphor!
quote:
Originally posted by emc
A metaphore just came to me on how I experience this re-awakening (wobbling in and out of time I use to call it)... It's like watching those pictures with black and white dots that if you stare at them long enough will become 3D and show beautiful and wonderous motives that are totally hidden for anyone who cannot find the right "tuning in" with the eyes. When it happens - there's NO DOUBT that something shifted significantly and made the picture undescribably more enjoyable than from the start. There's a new SEEING and KNOWING there's something more in those dots than you saw before. The discovery of the NEW picture is instant without you doing anything in particular. There is no way to decide when the shift will happen - it just does after staring long enough and having the right intention of wanting to be able to see it. With practice, the ability to shift becomes automatic and easier. And it's impossible to describe to anyone else what it looks like... You gotta see it for yourself. And you gotta be relaxed, and practice... and have a strong will and longing for the shift to happen... but you can never force it... then the dots will still be dots instead of a beautiful mystery.
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2009 : 11:37:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
A metaphore just came to me on how I experience this re-awakening (wobbling in and out of time I use to call it)... It's like watching those pictures with black and white dots that if you stare at them long enough will become 3D and show beautiful and wonderous motives that are totally hidden for anyone who cannot find the right "tuning in" with the eyes. When it happens - there's NO DOUBT that something shifted significantly and made the picture undescribably more enjoyable than from the start. There's a new SEEING and KNOWING there's something more in those dots than you saw before. The discovery of the NEW picture is instant without you doing anything in particular. There is no way to decide when the shift will happen - it just does after staring long enough and having the right intention of wanting to be able to see it. With practice, the ability to shift becomes automatic and easier. And it's impossible to describe to anyone else what it looks like... You gotta see it for yourself. And you gotta be relaxed, and practice... and have a strong will and longing for the shift to happen... but you can never force it... then the dots will still be dots instead of a beautiful mystery.
emc, so funny. This is the exact analogy that I have used many times to describe the process to various people. Its all there hidden in plain sight, just waiting for a shift in the way we see things...a parallax if you will 
Peace Love and Happiness |
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The Nature of Thought
