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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 26 2005 : 11:26:03 PM
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Hari Om
~~~~~
Hello Folks,
Did ya ever wonder/ponder why are there not more Enlighted folks walk'n round? In this age of Kali Yuga, enlightenment is not top of mind for the general house holder - yet with the number of people on the planet (Bhu Loka) ya'd think there would be just a few more Jivamuki's(enlighted while living).
Some Facts: How many new beings arrive daily? (See the chart below from the Census Bureau)
Births per day = 356,201
Deaths per day = 153,781
Net new humans = 202,419 (or 141 per minute)
Every day we get ~ 200,000 new or "recycled" :>) beings joining tera firma. that's 73 million new Jiva's every year.
Even if .000001 ( 1 in a million) are born per year that wold give us roughly 73 to 75 enlightened beings per year.
Now, I've been on this path for a bit, so I would expect about 3,600 to 3,700 enlighened folks while I been been occupying this planet.
I have run into 1 (but read of many) that I have the highest confidence he lives Brahmavidya. Where are the others? I am sure India has great souls , the Shankaarachara's etc.
It just seems there should be more.
MMY (Maharshi Mehesh Yogi)suggests if just 1% take to this mokhsa we will have Heaven on Earth. That would be ~6.5 million jiva's making it to enlightenment. Seems like we have a manufacturing problem!
In the Gita Sri Krsna clearly points out there a "few" that take this path and reach Him.
patu sarvaih svarupair nah sada sarvatra sama-gah
" May the Lord, who is all-pervasive in His various forms, protect us everywhere."
Just a thought.
Frank in San Diego
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2005 : 12:18:06 AM
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Hi Frank,
This is a great question I have often wondered myself. I personally don't know any enlightened people and don't think I have ever met one. They say Amma the "Hugging Saint" is one but I wouldn't be able to tell you even after spending a little time at her retreat.
I guess my point is that how would we know an "enlightened person" if we met one? I don't think they would walk up and announce themselves "hi there, how you doing, I'm doing great, I'm enlightened!". Something tells me it doesn't work this way. I am sure if they suddenly appeared in your living room, you might start wondering at their level of self awareness, but so far I am still waiting. I would love nothing more, it would be truly inspiring!
Anthem11 |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2005 : 10:23:49 AM
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'Enlightened' is a relative term but 'Jivamukta' ('freed while living') is much more specific. Whatever about 'enlightened' I think, yes, I think far fewer than one person in a million is a true Jivamukta. And then there is the 'Paramukta' ('supremely free'), another stage beyond the Jivamukta -- how many of those are there? One in several billion? Are such beings mythical or did/do they exist? Was Buddha such a creature and was there a Krishna who was?
(Of course gurus who are held by their disciples or supporters to be Jivamaktas or even Paramuktas are ten a penny.)
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2005 : 5:13:58 PM
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>> I guess my point is that how would we know an "enlightened person" if we met one? I don't think they would walk up and announce themselves "hi there, how you doing, I'm doing great, I'm enlightened!"
I can say one thing that I think I'd do if I became a paramukta or a jivamukta. Some people might find it surprising.
I would consider it very important that people have a clear concept of this state. I'd try to find a way that the state can be tested for in the lab, and proven. ( It might take years of advances of brain sciences and imaging before this can be done. ) This way, people could distinguish true ones from fakes and put the guru system in its rightful place.
This is exactly what I would ask a paramukta to do if this paramukta was not me.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Oct 27 2005 5:14:36 PM |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2005 : 5:23:03 PM
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I guess by paramukta you mean a siddha?When I was in India guruji told us that in the last 500 yrs there had hardly been 100 people reach enlightenment.He told us of a sadhu in the Himalayas who wore only a loin cloth even in winter and felt no cold such was the amount of energy flowing into him. Even so guruji told us he was still about 7 yrs off reaching enlightenment.Amma the hugging saint claims to have been born enlightened but I don't know the truth of that answer either way.Certainly the Maharishi is not fully enlightened although he does have some siddhis.My guru also has siddhis but has only had the rise to the third eye and not the full rise.My satguru is a Paramukta but I would say you are correct that there are very few of these around.
L&L
dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2005 : 10:54:19 PM
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2005 : 11:08:25 PM
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Hari Om
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Thank you all for responding to this topic. Good questions and input by all. I would like to extend( but not fully answer) the conversation a bit more if I may.
I can answer what the Jivanmukta would experience as according to the
Upanishads, but I cannot do it from my OWN experience. Hence
my knowledge is flawed.
David suggested to have Jivanmuki tested …this infers what happens in the body, the brainwaves, etc. I think this is an excellent idea.
That said, how does one measure the experience of infinity … the notion of the ONE ( Brahman) being measured out as "the many" is the foundation for maya-vada or to dismiss the creation as a product of avidya (ignorance). Will we know his blood change ( o2 levels, HDL, LDL) and all that - this may be interesting.
Yet how to measure the real difference that is subjective?
The Jivanmuki experiences and sees nothing other then His SELF everywhere. EKG and EEG may be different then "Johnny and Billy" - but the truly significant experience is Brahmavid brahmaiva bhavati
The knower of Brahman is Brahman itself (Mundaka Upanishad).
I couldn't wait to listen to that conversation between the medical intern and the Jagarti (one fully awake i.e. enlightened)… "So, you say Mr. Jivanmuki that I am THAT, THOU art THAT all this is THAT….hummm interesting" ; "and you say you there is no such thing as time for you ? That you experience vyomam ( infinity) at all times? Hummm, I see… and you say you are this Satchitananda? And what does that feel like ?? Ohh? You are able to enjoy all things all at once and you are the Atman of all ( Taittiriya Upanishad)".
The other question is how would you know if others are enlightened?
No outward appearance, yet in my humble understanding and experience-
When you meet these gracious Beings, its very rewarding to be in
their darshan ( sight)… Only sattva is in the air. They are in Dharma mega [cloud pouring virtue].
I would know them by their works to bring others into Brahman -
via knowledge. The universe supports all their actions as they are
THAT and THAT supports them 1000%. They work to bring good to the family of man… of this there is no doubt. We need more of these Beings. My good wish is that YOU become one and lead us, support our desires to achieve Kaivalya.
Sarvam khalu idam Brahm, ‘All of this indeed is Brahman’
Frank in San Digeo
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2005 : 12:58:47 AM
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In my view, we can tell if a person is NOT enlightened. But it is very difficult to tell if one is. It is just like software testing. We can tell if a software is buggy (has bugs) but can never tell that it is bug-free.
To be able to say a person is enlightened, we too need to be close to enlightenment. The more closer we are, the more easily will we be able to judge an enlightened person. Just as enlightenment cannot be attained thru intellect and reasoning, I feel judgement about enlightened persons too cannot be made just thru intellect. And also I dont think we should look for an END goal. I mean we shud be looking at the amount of progress they made instead of judging whether they have reached a point or not. We ourselves really dont know if there's a point.
Certain things that we could look for measuring progress-
1. degree of Selflessness
2. Mastery over senses
3. Powers (easy to test)
4. tongue (kechari)
5. Amount of time can stay by stopping breath
6. love towards god (curse god before them and see their reaction. The reaction shudnt be anger but should be intense)
7. love towards humanity
If you want your neighbor to believe in God, let him see what God can make you like. - Emerson |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2005 : 01:07:59 AM
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There was an incident that I read about vivekananda and ramakrishna paramahamsa (his guru).
Vivekanada wants to test whether his guru is enlightened or not. One day Ramakrishna told his intimate disciples that through spiritual practices his nervous system has undergone a change and that he cannot bear the touch of any metal, such as gold or silver. vivekananda wanted to test this.
One day, in the absence of Ramakrishna, he slipped a coin under his bed. When Ramakrishna returned and sat on the bed, he jumped up in pain as if stung by an insect. The bed was examined and the coin was found.
If you want your neighbor to believe in God, let him see what God can make you like. - Emerson |
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2005 : 09:14:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
This is a great question I have often wondered myself. I personally don't know any enlightened people and don't think I have ever met one.
I would love nothing more, it would be truly inspiring!
Andrew
Andrew,
Why do you want to meet an enlightened person so much? I also wondered some time ago why are there not more enlightened people around but then thought if there were in what way does it affect us ordinary people at all?
However we do have the possibility to learn from them by way of their writings and instruction so what would their physical presence add to this aside from the fun of it? The worldview of enlightened people is very different from mine and I am not sure I would get any closer to their level by them hanging around. I mean for instance Tolle says 'live in the moment and surrender to the now' Yogani says 'Real love does not worry' but even if I have them both lecturing live for 10 hrs in 1 hour shifts I will still not live in the moment most of the time and probably will still worry often.
If I were alive 50 yrs ago and could meet Swami Sivananda in real life that would be great but still I don't think on its own this would change the fact that we live in different worlds.
Conclusion: we do have the possibility to learn from the enlightened people by means of following their instructions in the way of writings, exercises and yoga practices. I think getting closer to them by means of attaining more understanding is way more important (and difficult I guess) than finding one in real life. I can be wrong though  |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2005 : 09:58:33 AM
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Lili,
Really dont you want to see Yogani? I want to see him as much as I want to see god. That ofcourse only means to develop myself to such a stage where I can see him rather than by any shortcut.
Near
If you want your neighbor to believe in God, let him see what God can make you like. - Emerson |
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2005 : 10:35:08 AM
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Hi Near,
I am not sure I understand your post. Course I want to see Yogani (I guess like most people here in the forum). But what do you mean by developing yourself to a stage where you can see him  . |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2005 : 12:38:09 PM
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Hi Lili,
That's just to make a point that guru is as important as god. If you want to love god, you have to learn to love your guru, his teaching.
It really takes lot of preparation to get a guru just as it takes effort to see god. We all want to see enlightened people, but I feel that's a result of lot of effort and longing from our side. We all want to test them but at the same time we need to remember that once we test them and accept them as our guru, we should be ready to do whatever they ask us to do in the path of god. Without the latter commitment, I dont think we will ever be able to see them just for the fun of it.
Near
If you want your neighbor to believe in God, let him see what God can make you like. - Emerson |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2005 : 4:10:47 PM
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Hi,
It's not a want to meet an enlightened yogi/yogini that matters, it is the difference it makes to you and your practice.Their physical presence does make a difference in that their energy is soaked up by you and their manner and ways are an inspiration.When I was in gurujis ashram there was a gentle energy all around at all times and the effect was such a peaceful place.Simply listening to him chanting was enough to make my body shake with the energy.
The importance of an enlightened guru is easily overlooked but I have found that by connecting with guruji in meditation increases the effects. In fact sometimes as I connect I simply drift into yoga nidra without any mantra.
L&L
dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2005 : 5:26:37 PM
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Hari Om
~~~~~
Namaste and Hello folks,
nearoanoke wrote:
"Certain things that we could look for measuring progress-
1. degree of Selflessness
2. Mastery over senses
3. Powers (easy to test)
4. tongue (kechari)
5. Amount of time can stay by stopping breath
6. love towards god (curse god before them and see their reaction. The reaction shudnt be anger but should be intense)
7. love towards humanity"
THIS is a great list - as I see it points 1,2,5,6, and 7 are subjective. That does not diminish their importance!
Let me commit on a few( if I may):
Selflessness
Iwould call it SELF-full-ness - completely full of the SELF.
Nothing else but the SELF is Brahman. This is moksha-para.
This is Atman ( Jiva becomes Atman, Brahman).
there is no test tube way of measuring - all subjective.
Mastery over the senses
the senses stay in the field of the senses when in Kaivalya - that is , you are without the 3 Gunas, the field of Prakrti ( kr=to make or to do, and pra= forth)- this is the field of the 3 gunas (sattva, rajas,tamas). Also found in the Bhagavad Gita, Sri Kesava ( ka = Brahma, a= Vishnu, isa= Siva or he who contols these 3, Krsna)
gives instructions to Arjuna to be without the 3 Gunas (Chapt 2.45).
Why? this is the field of change - Enlightenment is to act within the unchanging field that is non-binding - the benefit of Jivanmuki status is you retire karma - all actions are in concert with HIM.
Powers
Once Jivanmuki, the desire for powers ( siddhi) or their demonstration thereof are one more thing that is of little use. I think you would be hard pressed to ask the devadasa (now a servent to HIM) to demonstrate a siddhi or two to check is enlightenment status. That's just my take.
Tongue
Hummm... need a better underatanding here , if the ability to do kechari will indicate Moksha ( perhaps, I have no basis to form a conclusion)many in Hatha yoga using this technique may be ahead of most. Please help me with this. I hav not been successful doing this technique and am squeamish at best to snip any part of my person to advance a technique ( other then being quaffed!)
Stopping breadth
Could be a Siddhi power , yet does not indicate enlighenment as far as I can tell from my readings of Yoga Sutras.
Love Towards God ( Isavara)
What a wonderful metric!!! Every thing one sees is an expression of HIM. When in God Consciousness to Unity , the native becomes one with HIM. there is no difference - so subject and object disappear.
The metric is I am THAT, all this is THAT.
Love toward Humanity
In Brahman consciousness there is no duality ( duality is the definition of ignorance or avidya)... Hence Sarvam Khalv idam Brahma, "All this is Brahman" (Chhandogya Upanishad) that infers humanity also - and there is NO diffence between me and humanity. Brahman is humanity, I am Brahman, hense I am humanity. ( no advidya, no duality)
JUst some thoughts on a wonderfully uplifting subject..thank you all for sharing your insights and experiences.
Frank in San Diegeo
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2005 : 12:12:36 AM
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Hi Lili,
Great points, I agree with you, achieving more understanding and feedom for ourselves is far more important than being in the presence of a person who has achieved these things already. I do however think that we can learn a great deal from those ahead of us on the path and that it can accelerate our own progress too.
When I wrote, "I would love nothing more", I was a little over-exuberant in my choice of words (which I am often prone to do!) .
I think it would be inspiring for me to meet someone like this mostly because I would love to hear what the view is like from where they are standing!
all the best,
Anthem11
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Edited by - Anthem on Oct 29 2005 12:13:55 AM |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2005 : 10:01:50 AM
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Hi,
As siddhis are looked on as a distraction while on the path I doubt if you could get anyone to demonstrate them as if they were a circus perfomer.Also you don't need to be enlightened to gain siddhis so how is that a demonstration of moksha?As far as kechari goes why would this be a sign? My guru has never done hatha yoga to my knowledge and it is doubtful that hatha yoga alone can take you to moksha, the effects are not powerful enough according to my guru.Irresepctive of what practices one does, Reiki, Tai Chi,hatha yoga, etc unless one meditates you have little or no chance of achieving moksha.
L&L
dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2005 : 10:25:55 AM
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Hi Andrew,
I think you are not too enthusiastic about that as most everyone else in here seems to think exactly like you. So probably I am not seeing the things in the correct way or have never met an enlightened person or something. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2005 : 4:59:58 PM
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Hi Lil,
On the contrary, I think you are seeing things the right way, you make a very important point that first hand experience and understanding has greater value than hearing it from another. This point is repeated often in the Gita and in Pantajali's Sutras. I think most of us are probably similar in that we would enjoy the opportunity for some valuable 2nd hand glimpses into the infinite, if that were possible!
A
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2005 : 9:19:08 PM
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I agree with Jim and his Karma.
First, I think enlightenment is a process, not a set goal, so an enlightened person might not be what we expect.
I would think that an enlightened person would be enjoying ultimate freedom. That would mean that they could appear however they want to other people. Imagine if you were to announce that you could talk to God at will. How messed up would your life be? Some people would believe you and want to be with you all the time asking questions and getting advice. Some people would disbelieve you and want you to prove it. Some would want personal gain from you and would want pictures and stories for the tabloids. Some would hate you for not being a member of their religion and would do whatever they could to persecute you. So you would probably just want to blend in with the rest of us so you could have your privacy. If you felt someone coming who suspected something, maybe you would do something "unenlightened" to get rid of them.
Also "unenlightened acts" might be necessary to help someone along their path, teach them a lesson, or God knows why. Acting from a higher purpose wouldn't always be loving words and helpful gestures (thank God). Too much sugar spoils the dessert and turns people away.
And there's the tough love angle. Some people need that. If love and kind acts were the best teachers we'd live in a Disney world. Try taking a young gang-banger and be nice and loving to them and give them what they want and see how much they improve.
So we just have to work on ourselves and see what happens. Maybe as we become enlightened, everybody else will seem partially enlightened? I don't know.
Also, as for the test "curse god before them and see their reaction"
why would their reaction be intense? You can't hurt God by cursing at him. If someone hates the ocean and throws a stone in it in intense anger, does it cause a reaction that means something?
If someone hates a person you love does an intense reaction to that make you better in some way?
Maybe an enlightened person would completely understand why you were cursing God, and love you even more out of compassion.
Just my opinion,
Etherfish |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Oct 30 2005 : 2:28:14 PM
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Dear Etherfish,all,
Having just started reading 'This house is on Fire' the biography of my satgurus guru I would encourage others to read it and suggest you will find the answers in his story and words.It is certainly inspiring.
L&L
dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes'
Moderator note: Is this it?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/18...oks&v=glance |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Oct 30 2005 : 7:17:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Maybe an enlightened person would completely understand why you were cursing God, and love you even more out of compassion
Anything you do from mind is just fictional drama. Would you condemn someone for something they dreamed at night? We are likewise living in a dream when we delude ourselves into thinking we are mind and that God (or anything else) is separate. An enlightened person watches helplessly as people chase their own tales, investing more and more deeply into a dream filled with misery rather than awakening to a peaceful reality.
Getting back to your point, when I was very young, and had the issues kids have when they first get self-conscious about nudity, I used to worry about invisible people seeing me naked. Then I realized that it's silly to be uptight about nakedness in front of invisible people, because they see everyone naked. Not bad for a six year old, and the realization still stands up.
The more I travel this path, the more I watch and observe, the more certain I become that surrenedered people don't turn into big famous teachers, or that surrendered people who turn into big famous teachers inevitably reattach (hence all the problems with so many of the gurus). Not being the most insightful person in the world, I'm certain that vast numbers of other people have noticed what I've noticed - that making a big thing out of yourself is really really going the wrong way - and have faded into the background. How many? Doesn't matter. In the end it's all unity, anyway. These aren't superheroes, they're just people who got enough mud off their windshields to understand what they always were in the first place.
The guy who sells me my newspaper who, unknown to me, says a little prayer for me as I leave his kiosk each morning means a lot more to me than a self-proclaimed master in flowing white robes with a practiced warm loving smile, tons of charisma and in-your-face spiritual vibrations. It's important to remember that spirituality isn't a "style"! Anyone who projects their ego at all (much less that big) - who wants you to see how very spiritually accomplished they are - has built up what we're trying to reduce (awareness of pride leads to pride of awareness, etc etc etc.). As you clean out all your gunk, there's no "there" there anymore. It's all just slippery emptiness in a sea of love (living in an otherwise indistinguishable body for a while). There's just no place for greatness. If you spot greatness or spirituality, it's the mind. Beware the loop. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Oct 30 2005 7:33:47 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 30 2005 : 11:35:40 PM
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i agree with your statement about people who make a big deal about
themselves, and big famous teachers maybe being on the wrong track.
But it's quite possible that we are surrounded by enlightened
teachers and don't know it. That's why working on ourselves is the
most important thing.
After all, if some of us are getting close, it's likely we could have enlightened people helping us. People like your newspaper guy. . .of course he'll do something obvious to throw your suspicion off.
We're all actors in this dream, and someone who could see through
the dream all the time might be a supreme actor. Maybe the guy in
flowing white robes, playing a part he feels is hilarious. Or
a homeless guy, pretending life sucks while enjoying every
minute of it.
Etherfish |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 31 2005 : 10:50:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
The more I travel this path, the more I watch and observe, the more certain I become that surrenedered people don't turn into big famous teachers, or that surrendered people who turn into big famous teachers inevitably reattach (hence all the problems with so many of the gurus).
A spin or two off that -- first, Eckhart Tolle said almost exactly the same thing.
So, the question is, by lauding spiritual 'realizers' are we just setting more and more traps? Are we closing off an exit door from Maya with all our lauding of spiritual realizers and the building-up of spiritual 'attainment'? Making sure that the exit door leads straight back in?
>> These aren't superheroes, they're just people who got enough mud off their windshields to understand what they always were in the first place.
Should we be in the business at all of thinking that various spiritual teachers are the greatest beings that ever lived, or is that just all unhealthy nonsense?
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Oct 31 2005 : 11:15:02 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
A spin or two off that -- first, Eckhart Tolle said almost exactly the same thing.
David have you done Tolle's exercises for being very focused in the present, connecting to the energy field etc. and do you find them helpful? |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Oct 31 2005 : 11:33:49 AM
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David, I don't know. Best advice: keep doing AYP until you know.
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Where's the Enlightened?
