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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 21 2009 : 9:35:52 PM
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Yes, Yogic Christianity.
Imagine, for a moment, that AYP arose out of the tradition of Gnostic Christian Kabbalah, instead of the yogic traditions -- and you'll have a good initial feel for Tau Malachi (aka the "Gnostic Christian Yogani"  ) and the Sophian Fellowship.
http://www.sophian.org/
Yes, Christianity is yogic; always was, always is, always will be - couldn't be otherwise, in reality.
"My yoga is easy, and my burden is light."
~Matthew 11:30, Christian Bible
(The English "Yoke" in the Bible is translated from the Greek Zeugom, which comes from the Sanskrit Yugam, which is the root for the Sanskrit/English word Yoga - hence "Yoga" is as accurate a translation for the Greek word Zeugom as "Yoke" is -- actually, more so.)
The Eight Cycles of Christian Yogic Initiation
http://www.sophian.org/gnostic%20path.html
The Yogic Christianity (aka Gnostic Christian Kabbalah) Support Forum
http://www.sophian.org/forum/
Tell 'em Kirtanman sent you!
PS- And sure, finding out that nearly two millenia of possibly confusing Christian teachings can be articulated clearly, and in a realization-oriented manner that is utterly consistent with the original teachings and intent of the teachers (i.e. Reb Yeshua & Rebbetzin Miriam, aka Jesus & Mary Magdalene) is helpful, interesting and potentially world-changing -- and having a handy set of clear, realization-oriented teachings which highlight the one truth we all are, symbolized via the teachings of Gnostic Christian Kabbalah is even more so .... but NONE of that matters one whit unless you come to know yourself as the truth ... the truth that, indeed, sets you free.
Like Yogani, Tau Malachi runs his site, writes his books, and connects with his community for the only reason that matters:
To wake dreaming thought-selves up to their own delightful, enlightened true nature.
The color of the map doesn't matter; following the map all the way home to the reality you've never left ... is all that matters.
And having some fun along the way // as you get there ain't half bad, either!
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Apr 21 2009 9:40:13 PM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Apr 22 2009 : 01:57:50 AM
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hi kirtanman ,
thk you for the links and i'm glad to see you back posting around here i'm a great fan of your posts.
namaste,
Ananda |
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markern
Norway
171 Posts |
Posted - Apr 22 2009 : 07:12:56 AM
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| Very interesting! Thanks! |
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Apr 22 2009 : 12:22:06 PM
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Kirtanman!!!!
Glad to see your post. Someone else just posted a thread about people who had posted often in the past, but hadn't posted in awhile. And as I went to type that I hoped to hear from Kirtanman, I saw your post from yesterday.
Always enjoyed reading your posts and found a lot of inspiration from them. 
These sites look very interesting. I have a Christian upbringing, but have drunk from multiple traditions before settling in at AYP. The "yogic"/mystical aspects of Christianity seem have been eradicated (or tolerated at best) by the Christian establishment over the years, much to the detriment of followers worldwide.
Thanks for the info |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Apr 22 2009 : 2:13:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
hi kirtanman,
thk you for the links and i'm glad to see you back posting around here i'm a great fan of your posts.
namaste,
Ananda
Hi Ananda,
Thanks! I appreciate the kind words; and I can say the same -- I have been staying in touch with the forum via reading, even though I haven't posted in some time -- and I appreciate your insight(s) and especially the spirit of sincere caring you show people here at the forum.
It's very nice to .... "forumally"  meet you!
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Apr 22 2009 : 2:52:40 PM
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Parallax!!
Hey- Thanks! Very kind of you!
And yes, there's a lot that can be said about various religions, and their approaches -- especially as it relates to the essence of truth -- the one truth; reality -- with which they all started, and to which all their symbols point.
Essentially, all religions have fundamentalists, and they all have a "cultural majority" - those who were born into a given religion, and tend to follow the traditions of their religion without necessarily paying a lot of attention.
And (the good news!) - they all have their mystics, their yogis -- their enlightened sages.
Christianity became more rigidly institutionalized than the others -- and the essential teachings of experiential realization were buried in favor of teachings that highlighted dependence upon the church and holy books -- even more so than in the other major religions.
They all have the same general dynamics; Hinduism may have a few more yogis and mystics; Christianity and Islam may have a few more fundamentalists ... but Christian Mystics & Islamic Sufis offer teachings every bit as "enlightened" as the very best inspired wisdom of the Kabbalah, Gnosticism, Tantric Hinduism (i.e. Kashmir Shaivism), Tantric Buddhism, Taoism, and so on -- and those paths all have their rigid and myopic adherents as well.
Tendency toward fundamentalism has a lot more to do with individual psychology than with the religion itself.
And many people think of fundamentalist views when they think of Christianity.
The truth is that ... well .... the truth is.
And the beauty is: the truth has never been lost.
Experiential realization is at the heart of the teachings of every religion.
Including Christianity.
The distortions which would lead us to think otherwise were not part of the original teachings.
And ultimately, of course, it's not about the information --- its about *where* the information *points* -- is a piece of information, a teaching, a symbol, useful in facilitating realization?
If I ever feel a need to prioritize practices or study -- I always prioritize practices.
However, intuition (aka inner silence) often inspires some study -- and I have found the writings and work of Tau Malachi & Sophian Gnosticism to be very useful; directly useful.
Both in terms of a very clear "map" of some of the deeper experiential realms of consciousness, and in "connecting the dots" between the teachings of the various religions --- which are kind of like pictures taken from different angles ... a "bit" of Kabbalah helps clarify a "bit" of Kashmir Shaivism .. which helps clarify a "bit" of Christianity.
None of this is essential to understand with the mind; it's more about exposure to the "vibe" of enlightenment which threads through every tradition ... and, which (by far, most importantly) highlights what is experienced as the benefits of practices unfold.
And, it's really just kind of fun/interesting and inspiring to realize that the truths we're realizing by experience via AYP ... are truly, actually, at the heart of original Christianity.
In Joy & Enjoying It All,
Kirtanman |
Edited by - Kirtanman on Apr 22 2009 5:29:29 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Apr 22 2009 : 2:54:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by markern
Very interesting! Thanks!
Hi Markern,
Thanks for saying so; I hope you find it helpful!
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Apr 22 2009 : 8:09:25 PM
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Kirtanman,
I disagree wholeheartedley. There is little to no truth in Abrahamic systems. I would Buddhism at 60% truth. Hinduism at 30% truth. |
Edited by - alwayson on Apr 22 2009 8:13:30 PM |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Apr 22 2009 : 8:17:58 PM
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| Where do those statistics come from? What do you mean by "truth"? Why is nothing 100%? |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Apr 22 2009 : 8:34:21 PM
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What truth means will take a while for me to explain. Truth is important at the most mundane everyday levels when interacting with other humans and also at the highest and most mystical.
Read this first:
http://www.astraldynamics.com/tutor...concept.html |
Edited by - alwayson on Apr 22 2009 8:57:57 PM |
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2009 : 09:29:11 AM
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AlwaysOn,
Have you read the New Testament of the Bible? Some great teachings of Truth in there. "The Kingdom of God is Within", "If thine eye be single, the whole body shall be full of light", "Do unto others...", "Judge not...", "Love thy enemy"; the offering of the self for the upliftment of humanity, etc, etc...
And there is a long lineage of "realized" Christian mystics, The Desert Fathers, Meister Eckhart, Theresa of Avila, St John of the Cross and more recently Thomas Merton, Anthony de Mello and Thomas Keating.
There are great truths in each of the major traditions; no one tradition has a monopoly.
Where Christianity has fallen down is my view is exactly what Kirtanman describes: it has been more rigidly institutionalized, and the emphasis was brought (after the fact) on teachings and rituals rather than on experiential realization. Some of that is beginning to change with the "Centering Prayer" movement, which is essentially mantra meditation techniques...
At the end of the day, Truth is not an intellectual construct, it is That. And the way to know That, is to experience it for oneself...
"As soon as you look at the world through an ideology you are finished. No reality fits an ideology. Life is beyond that. That is why people are always searching for a meaning to life… Meaning is only found when you go beyond meaning. Life only makes sense when you perceive it as mystery and it makes no sense to the conceptualizing mind."
Anthony de Mello
Much Love
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2009 : 1:52:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott
By the way, this topic in their forum is excellent: http://www.sophian.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1007
Absolutely Scott. Just read it all. Very very clear. Helped me a lot as I can relate to most of the things he says. The terms are different (Gnostic) but the reality (and the mechanisms of transformation) are the same.
All the best to you all. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2009 : 8:41:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson
Kirtanman,
I disagree wholeheartedley. There is little to no truth in Abrahamic systems. I would Buddhism at 60% truth. Hinduism at 30% truth.
Hi Alwayson,
Thanks for your comment - and I think I get what you're saying -- that the mainstream teachings of each religion, as interpreted and restated from limited perspective ... contribute to a lot of confusion for those taking the teachings in at an informational/mental level - yes?
Per my first post above, if we're talking percentages ... I'd suggest that it's more like:
Each religion contains 100% truth for each person who realizes/has realized/will realize enlightenment, via practices and the symbol-set of that religion.
Each religion contains 0% truth for a person who does not realize, which often occurs when they listen to the opinions and teachings of others who claim to know, and become mired in the information (confusing the menu with the meal, the map with the territory, the scriptures with the reality), which tends to result in mental prejudice (aka "belief"), which serves as an effective block to realization.
Hence the comment attributed to Jesus:
"Know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
Nothing anyone else knows, or thinks they know, can ultimately serve awakening.
Nothing you know, or think you know, can ultimately serve awakening.
Nothing I know, or think I know, can ultimately serve awakening.
Awakening is awakening to reality.
All concepts, including concept of self, or "me" must be released; concepts *are* the dream -- and all symbol-sets ... *can* be useful, but also must be set aside as their usefulness is fulfilled (i.e. you get *out* of the car when you reach your destination).
All knowledge, all thoughts, all ideas, all symbols are objects appearing in the awareness that we actually are, right here, right now.
However - since the conditioned thought-self with which most of us identify (until we don't any longer) is what we're awakening *from* - certain symbolic maps -- the essential teachings of each religion -- can indeed be very useful, as a means of exiting the dream (the dream of "thinking we are who we think we are").
Also: I read Robert Bruce's article, per your link.
He seems to be suggesting replacing a less-conscious belief system with a more-conscious one.
I respectfully see that approach as a good way to keep dreaming, which will always include some suffering.
Better, possibly, I would suggest -- to release all beliefs, and not replace them -- and enter into living reality - into freedom beyond imagination.
True religious wisdom has nothing to do with belief ... and everything to do with following some surprisingly sophisticated symbolic maps (as mentioned above) ... which do lead to full realization ... as the mystics of all religions have proven, replicably, for as long as there have been mystics (aka yogis/yoginis) ... and religions.
Peace & In-Joy-Ment,
Kirtanman |
Edited by - Kirtanman on Apr 24 2009 9:44:23 PM |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2009 : 8:59:44 PM
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Actually that article by Robert Bruce is only a fraction of what he has said in regard to belief systems.
According to him, a false belief system is the PRIME thing that cuts people off from their Holy Guardian Angel, which is like a powerful deity that sits inside you. It also cuts you off from all aspects of the Greater Reality.
If you want to be enlightened according to Robert Bruce:
a. Clean up the belief system by physically writing a list as explained in that article.
b. Then monitor emotions in the physical body while interacting with people.
c. Then hit the affirmations for all the things you want in life. He is REALLY big on loud spoken present tense affirmations repeated for hours on end, for many days. Loud spoken affirmations allows the HGA to hear it on the astral plane. Funnily enough, affirmations will not be part of your belief system, since you cleaned it up (unless they have worked fo you in the past), but he says to do it anyway. |
Edited by - alwayson on Apr 24 2009 9:24:46 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2009 : 11:08:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson
Actually that article by Robert Bruce is only a fraction of what he has said in regard to belief systems.
According to him, a false belief system is the PRIME thing that cuts people off from their Holy Guardian Angel, which is like a powerful deity that sits inside you. It also cuts you off from all aspects of the Greater Reality.
Allowing a little flexibility for the terminology -- I would agree with the statement above, in general; I'm saying the same thing.
So is Yogani.
So is anyone else speaking from the standpoint of experience.
Inner Silence allows us to receive guidance from the inner guru, or if you prefer, angel; they're all just terms for pure intuitive awareness ("pratibha", in Sanskrit) which is our essential nature, and which is not obscured by the artificial thought-self.
As inner silence increases, we come to realize that if it's "inner" --- it's more truly who and what we are than the limited, surface thought-self.
There are various methods for facilitating this -- some more physical-practice based, some more inquiry-based; each of us tends to hit upon a workable combination in our own life ---- and the more we practice, and the more we let go of limiting beliefs and concepts ... the more rapidly and smoothly awakening occurs.
As Yogani points out in the books and lessons, AYP practices help this releasing to be supported by neurobiology - including emotions, mind - and aspects of awareness more comprehensive and more subtle than either.
If you resonate with Robert Bruce, great -- we've all got to go with what feels right.
The main reason that I resonate with certain teachers and teachings ... Yogani/AYP, Adyashanti, Tau Malachi, Eckhart Tolle, Paramahamsa Nithyananda, and so on ... is because their teachings (especially daily AYP practices) -- have produce amazing results, in my experience.
AYP, specifically, has produced results more amazing that I knew to be possible, when I started AYP (roughly 3 years ago, give or take a handful of months).
And I'm not saying "so these teachings are better than Robert Bruce" --- I'm saying that the evaluation criteria I go by is:
Results.
I would encourage anyone reading to do the same.
Yogani, and at least a handful of AYP practitioners, including myself, have experienced some beyond-significant results.
The dropping of limiting beliefs, including limited sense of self, *is* awakening ... practicing ... inquiring ... dropping false-limiting beliefs, experiencing related changes in the body-mind as described in the AYP Lessons and books -- and experiencing reality as it is.
And that was my point in starting this thread:
Mainstream Christianity, with all sincere respect, has a lot of misunderstanding - because it tends to be a culture of accepting other limited-mind opinions.
Yogic/Gnostic Christianity, like yogic/gnostic paths of all religions - doesn't concern itself with understanding per se, but with the results of practices/inquiry -- which yield understanding, in experience.
I hope that helps clarify a bit; thanks again for your comments.
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman |
Edited by - Kirtanman on Apr 24 2009 11:12:10 PM |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2009 : 5:43:29 PM
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It is not AYP versus Robert Bruce. Robert Bruce's techniques are similar to AYP.
It is all belief systems versus Robert Bruce lol
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2009 : 6:38:00 PM
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Or perhaps all spiritual systems vs Maya...in the octagon...
Wishing you P.B.C. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2009 : 10:43:22 PM
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Hey All,
... I realized that I may have mis-titled the thread a little.
The term "Christianity" does tend to imply//be associated with matters, doctrines, etc. that are connected with the organizational structure of that religion, and its related hierarchies and beliefs.
Unfortunately, there's not really a standard term for the yogic/gnostic philosophies which use Christ-symbol-oriented, and Christ-symbol-derived philosophies and mythologies ... but which are realization-facilitating, as opposed to realization-obscuring.
And so, important point:
A mystic/yogic view, using *any* religion's symbols, has *much* more in common with other mystic/yogic views, philosophies & paths -- than it does with the mainstream, exoteric groups within its own religion.
Here's a good article explaining the distinctions:
Mysticism, Yoga & Religion.
It's also important to note (per my first post in this thread), the the *original* teachings of what came to be known as Christianity, were yogic ... in the sense that they literally promoted the knowing/experiencing of the truth of self which is known in other traditions as liberation and/or enlightenment.
Essentially, people whose motives are lost to the dustbin of history, but who appear to have been attempting to keep a cohesive religious structure together, while at the same time possibly vying for political and religious power ... essentially branded doctrines requiring belief in a special, external deity and/or a church structure as doctrine -- and branded the teachings which taught the potential for realization as being "heretical".
The 27 books of the New Testament reflect this reality quite strongly.
That, combined with the layers of meaning which were literally lost in intentional, accidental and simply-linguistic translation (from written Hebrew, and from Hebrew and Aramaic oral traditions) -- leaves us with a set of writings (in the current Christian New Testament) that's *very* different from the mainstream of the original teachings associated with Christ and the early Christian church.
Examples (of the effects of mis-translation and agendas):
Matthew, Mark, Luke & John (the Gospels) were not written by "Matthew, Mark, Luke & John ... presuming these men were historic, in the first place. The authors of the gospels were educated in Greek, and writing roughly seventy-five years after Jesus is said to have lived - when they were purported (per the Gospels) to be rural, likely illiterate speakers of Aramaic. There's a remote, but highly-unlikely chance they're the same people (they *could* have moved to the city, become educated in Greek, and become highly sophisticated writers expressing themselves from a Greek philosophical frame of mind -- but "I'm thinkin' maybe not". )
Several of the "letters of Paul" are accepted by conventional New Testament scholars as *not* having been written by Paul (simply put: they're acknowledged forgeries).
Source: Jesus, Interrupted by Bart D. Ehrman, Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina.
Check out Professor Ehrman's Web Site -- he's the James A. Gray Distinguished Scholar of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina, and has his Ph.D. from the Princeton Theological Seminary, where he graduated Magna Cum Laude.
How big is this guy and his books?
BIG.
And .... to date ..... of historically verified and verifiable ancient writings (i.e. writings that linguists, religious scholars and historians agree are scientifically valid according to professional standards) connected with the life and teachings of Reb Yeshua, the esoteric Jewish rabbi (aka guru) who became known as Jesus Christ (per the Hellenization - "Greek-izing" of the name, and title "Messiah", which was appended to the teacher's name, as is common for disciples to do, regarding their gurus) ....
.... of these writings accepted as historically valid ....
... the *vast* majority of these writings are *gnostic*.
No kidding.
Whatsoever.
The ONLY difference between these writings, these gospels, and the "books of the Bible", is that a group of people, in the year 325 C.E. (Common Era) met with the Emperor Constantine, and *decided*, voted - by a thin majority - that the 27 books currently accepted as the Christian New Testament, were "canonical" - "acceptable".
... and that the *hundreds* of gnostic gospels were *heretical* - evil.
... solely because the gnostic teachings outlined that the teachings of Jesus Christ were about Self-Realization .... exactly as the Jewish Kabbalists had been teaching in the region for *Millenia* ...
... and because, *therefore*, those gnostic gospels did not fit the political or religious agenda held by these men -- that there should be a powerful central church, which would tell adherents what the "doctrine of the faith" was all about.
REALLY.
There are hundreds of gnostic/yogic gospels which every linguistic and religious scholar agrees are historically authentic.
They are *only* excluded from the Bible because they teach self-realization.
On the one hand:
Hundreds of self-realization oriented gospels, which were symbolically in harmony with nearly two millenia of Jewish Kabbalistic thought *and* several millenia of Kashmiri Shaivite thought and practices, and several centuries of Buddhist thought and practices.
On the Other Hand:
Four gospels written decades after the reported life of Jesus by men from another country and culture, along with a few letters (some clearly forgeries, according to historic and religious scholars), and a handful of other writings selected for their "doctrinal compatibility" -- compiled by people with a political and religious agenda.
(And if you don't get the power of THAT --- note the difference in how an actual event is reported in the news, *today*, by parties with different agendas!)
Which set of writings (the hundreds of gnostic gospels, or the twenty-seven books of the "doctrinally useful" Bible) -- are likely to be useful and valid from the only standard that matters: Facilitating Realization?
(Realization is the same "doing the Will of God" all religion teaches; the only difference is: with Realization, you don't have to take anyone else's word for it -- you *know* the truth that sets you free. )
The point isn't so much "Hey, Christianity teaches yogic/mystical stuff, too!"
The point is: What mystical, realization-oriented paths of all religions teach --- what quantum physics (the most tested and experimentally proven theory in all of science, ever) teaches ..... is what was originally taught in *all* religions, before confused, control-agenda-filled ego-minds twisted the teachings for their own purposes.
And the point of THAT is:
The practices that AYP offers can lead you to the reality -- the liberation -- the freedom beyond imagination -- the peace which passes all understanding ... promised by every religion, all around the world, throughout history, in its undistorted form -- *and* which (liberation / freedom / peace) is also indicated by the leading edge of (quantum) physical science.
Yogic thought isn't the strange, offshoot teaching.
Mainstream "exoteric" (externally-focused) religion is the strange, offshoot teaching.
REALLY.
The essential teachings of Christianity, Judaism, Taoism, Buddhism, Islam, Hermeticism & Quantum Physics all point to the *same* liberation, and carry *no* inherent conflict with one another. None.
Even science and religion are in complete harmony, in reality.
That's interesting; it could change the world.
And AYP offers you the way to experience this liberation.
THAT could change everything.
Enlightenment is real.
Enlightenment is all that's real.
C'mon in -- the Divine is Fine!
Kirtanman
Hope This Helps Clarify.
Heart is Where the AUM Is,
Kirtanman |
Edited by - Kirtanman on Apr 25 2009 11:08:35 PM |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2009 : 11:29:10 PM
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Point A
The gnostic christian texts were certainly dated WAY later than the regular bible new testament (of which the NASB is the best translation).
Point B
None of the religions are compatible in the way you suggest they are.
Point C
Who cares? Simply realize the truth of the nature of the mind. |
Edited by - alwayson on Apr 26 2009 12:01:45 AM |
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Apr 26 2009 : 12:41:23 AM
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Kirtanman,
I love your posts!
Your return is appreciated. |
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Apr 26 2009 : 06:56:55 AM
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| Another great book that makes the same points is Beyond Belief: The Secret Gospel of Thomas, by Elaine Pagels professor of religion at Princeton |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Apr 26 2009 : 3:02:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Parallax
Another great book that makes the same points is Beyond Belief: The Secret Gospel of Thomas, by Elaine Pagels professor of religion at Princeton
Funny you should mention it (Elaine Pagels // Beyond Belief) ... I just finished reading it (last week-ish)!
I'd heard good things about her for years, but had never read anything by her, prior to Beyond Belief.
Here's a good overview of the whole "Early Christian Writings // Gnosticism" timelines, and what-not, excerpted from her first book, The Gnostic Gospels.
Gnostic Gospels Article
Note to Alwayson // All Who Are Following This Thread:
Yes, per the article linked above --- for the most part, with one or two exceptions, with respect to the actual physical documents which have been found -- the earliest copies of the gnostic gospels which have been found are more recent (by a few decades in some cases, a couple of centuries, in others) than the material in the Bible (the four "canonical" gospels, the letters of Paul "real and imagined by someone-not-Paul" ).
The physical age of documents was not my main point, though I certainly understand it could have possibly sounded that way.
My pain point, vis-a-vis gnosticism being pre-Christian, was primarily -- well -- that Gnosticism is pre-Christian.
Not from a debate/theological standpoint ... as you may have gleaned, I don't have any interest in either.
More from a simple, historical-fact standpoint ... but related to the teachings -- not the age of given physical documents.
Again: Christianity as a *religion* probably can be inextricably connected with the more exoteric dogma with which we normally associate it.
The original "Doctrine of the Son", the anointed one ... the Christ .... is threaded through many gnostic teachings ... including the Merkabah mysticism and other Kabbalistic schools of Judaism, as well as various Hermetic paths within the Egyptian mystery schools ... both of which had strong historical and religious influence in the Middle Eastern region at the time Jesus is said to have lived and taught.
"Gnosis" simply means "to Know" ... and is cognate with Jnana is Sanskrit. All inquiry-oriented practices are "gnostic", by definition.
The original symbolism of the Messiah - Moshiach - the Anointed One -- precedes the teachings of the reportedly historical person and dates of Jesus, as given in the Bible and other mainstream Christian writings, by, historically speaking, at least several centuries.
The "Son", or dual-gendered child ... is symbolic of unified, clarified, awakened consciousness .... the result of the "purification of conceptual mind", per the (IMO ) staggeringly insightful Kashmiri Shaivite sage, Abhinavagupta.
In Shaivism, the basic model of Awareness-->Clear Mind-->Perceived Objectivity, is symbolized as:
Shiva
Shakti
Shivasakti
(Sivashakti, sometimes called "Nara", or "Human", is the union of the two; i.e. subjectivity-objectivity experienced as one unified awareness.)
In Christianity, this same model is given as:
Father
Son
Holy Spirit (aka Holy Mother, Shekinah)
(The teaching of the Holy Spirit as male is due to a specific, fairly recent doctrinal approach, technically known as .... wrong. )
In Judaism, the model is given as:
Abraham
Isaac
Jacob (Israel)
&
Y
H
V
H
Kashmir Shaivism has specific paths connected with each of these levels:
Shambhavopaya - Unified or Thought-Free Awareness
Shaktopaya - Empowered Mind
Anavopaya - Individual Practices
Symbolized by the term:
A
H
aM
.... Sanskrit for .....
I AM
Being aware that the mystical schools within Hinduism/Tantra, Judaism and Christianity (along with all major religions) utilize these terms of this symbolic manner can simply offer more support/clarity as one moves from the dream into awakening.
Knowing that these paths all started this way simply points to the truth that the reality/potential of human consciousness has always been known ... has always been available.
And ... that religion, if you have one ... or feel the interest .... can be part of the support and solution to awakening ... and does not have to be shelved or discarded as part of a perceived problem or conflicting view.
I offer all of this information sincerely with the intent of offering additional information and resources.
Why?
Because there's a lot of suffering in unawakened mind.
And it doesn't have to be that way.
Loving is a natural property of Awareness.
Uplifting, positive intent is an aspect of Loving.
Serving Loving as best we can is Pure Bliss Consciousness.
It's not complicated.
It's beautiful.
And so very, deliciously REAL -- far more than any of us could ever imagine.
There's a reason people have been dedicating their lives to this for thousands of years.
Peace, Joy & Other Fun Stuff,
Kirtanman
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Apr 26 2009 : 3:47:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson
Point A
The gnostic christian texts were certainly dated WAY later than the regular bible new testament (of which the NASB is the best translation).
Point B
None of the religions are compatible in the way you suggest they are.
Point C
Who cares? Simply realize the truth of the nature of the mind.
Hi Alwayson,
Please see my response(s) in my other post (just now).
Basically:
Re: Point A
Somewhat true regarding physical documents, not true regarding teachings.
The timing/historicity isn't the primary point; the primary point is: these symbol-sets can be used, and have been used, to facilitate awakening.
Re: Point B
I do get what you're saying: if you put an educated scholar or cleric from Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, Taosim & Buddhism in the same room, and showed them my posts ... it's likely that they would all instantly conclude that I had been smoking a great deal of something that their religions most likely forbid.
I've tried to be clear in making my point that the *symbolism* and teachings have, as far as all available historical evidence shows, been part of each of these paths/religions, since their inception -- for each of them.
Could I be wrong on that? I suppose.
However, I've done a fair amount of study, and have gained a fair amount of insight based on results of AYP practice -- and not only does the practices-study (kriya-jnana) synergy sync up perfectly ... it also harmonizes with the stated understanding of the symbolism of each religion, as given by that religion's mystical schools.
As In: if you put a Gnostic/Mystic Christian, a Kabbalist, a Tantric Shaivite, a Sufi, a Taoist Mystic and a Tantric Buddhist in the same room ... as far as I know ... they'd agree with everything I've said in this thread.
And these people are technically "a Christian, a Jew, a Hindu, a Muslim, a Taoist and a Buddhist", as are my theoretical "educated clerics" mentioned above ... the latter set (the group mentioned in the paragraph above) are simply yogis/mystics ... and they are oriented toward experiential realization, as opposed to the mental-understanding focus of traditional religious clerics and adherents.
Realization-wise, experiential realization (obviously ) works nicely, whereas mental understanding (of doctrine/dogma) tends to push realization away .... because it literally keeps one attached to surface layers not only of concepts about concepts ... but also concepts regarding sense of oneself.
Reality is deeper than thought-self.
Infinitely.
Re: Point C
Some people need/can make good use of various types of practices and support, in order to realize the nature of mind.
I started this thread, and am offering this information, in case it might be helpful to anyone in terms of realizing the nature of mind -- in experience.
The Shiva Sutras outline this nicely:
1.1 Caitanya Atma - Unbound Awareness is Self.
1.2 Jnanam Bandhah - Knowledge is Bondage.
Knowledge *is* bondage; knowing is liberation.
Why?
Because "knowledge" is always an object *in* awareness, and causes the illusion of duality-separation to persist.
Knowing is experiencing awareness of the unity of the appearance of subject/perceiving/object in unbound awareness.
Living as unbound, unified awareness is "realizing the nature of the mind".
If you are living consciously in/as this awareness -- awesome!
If you're not ... I might suggest simply staying open (which is what dropping belief{s} is all about .... belief obscures ... openness allows the light of awareness to reveal the true nature of mind.)
AYP Practices can help to facilitate this process greatly.
In my experience, so can understanding the meaning of the symbols of the various mystical paths of each religion .... it opens up an amazing "vocabulary", which helps one (in my experience) to benefit from the accumulated wisdom of the great mystics of all paths, throughout the ages.
It's kind of a "harmonizing" thing, if you will.
Imagine religion as a screwdriver.
A religious practitioner of any faith is thinking "this doesn't *work* ... it's ridiculous!!"
& then ... inspiration strikes ....
"Oh ..... I see ....... use the other *end* .... WOW .... that kinda changes .... *everything*!!"
Taking the symbol-sets of each religion, and turning them "outside-IN" ... to their mystical/esoteric uses and meanings ..... changes those symbols from obstacle to useful tool.That's all.
A lot of yogis/yoginis of all paths have found the practices+knowing (per study of symbol-sets and mystical teachings, along with inquiry) works better-faster than practices alone.
Others do fine with practices alone.
Or knowing-inquiry alone.
AYP offers/suggests a nice balance between the two, using the guidance of the inner guru/angel/silence as it becomes more clear and available.
I genuinely appreciate your comments, Alwayson ... it feels like your comments are helping me to clarify some of this, potentially for us all, in terms of how I'm expressing it; I hope so.
In the end, I'm not promoting a viewpoint ... I'm just offering some possibly new information, which may open doors to realization-facilitating resources that forum members/readers may not have known about, prior to this thread.
As far as whether what I'm saying has any basis in accuracy -- you certainly don't need to take my word for it, nor would I want you to do so.
Ultimately, it's about knowing for yourself, in experience -- and whether or not that ever involves any religious symbolism is utterly optional, of course.
I'm not saying it's needed ... solely that it can potentially be *useful*.
If you want to verify/research any of the informational claims I've referenced .... "Google is our friend".
Check out some of the links I've posted; do your own Googling .... I'm actually not making any of this up.
Enlightened sages and enlightened scholars of all paths have been teaching what I'm saying in this thread for thousands of years -- and "plus-minus" a full thousand, at least, in term of verified/verifiable historical writings (i.e. the era between roughly 800 & 1600 C.E. may have been "dark", at least for part of that period, in Europe, but were *very* "light" in the Islamic world, in India, and in other parts of Asia - and we have writings from enlightened sages, scholars and mystics from that era from all paths -- including a few Christians {Meister Eckhart, St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, and so on} - as well as Tantric Shaivites {Abhinavagupta, Kshemaraja, Utpaladeva, etc.}, Buddhists {Padmasambhava and others}, Sufis {Rumi and others} and Kabbalistic Jews {Isaac Luria, Abraham Alufia, etc.}.
They all teach that religious symbolism, names of God{dess}, mythologies, etc. ... are maps to awakening, and are not meant to be taken literally.
I hope this info/dialog is helpful to all.
AUM is Where the Heart Is,
Kirtanman |
Edited by - Kirtanman on Apr 26 2009 8:05:14 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Apr 26 2009 : 3:49:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by machart
Kirtanman,
I love your posts!
Your return is appreciated.
Hi Machart!
"Hey, Thanks!"
Your comment, and everyone's kind words are appreciated!
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Apr 26 2009 : 7:53:49 PM
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Thanks for the great post Kirtanman. I have known all this in my heart since forever, but it is wonderful to read it so point blank and in such a concise way. Much love to you my friend. I am very happy you have decided to "rejoin" the posting community here.
Love,
Carson |
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