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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 5:12:27 PM
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Hi emc:
You might find Adyashanti's book "The End of Your World" helpful, particularly the chapter called, "I got It, I lost It." 
The book is about the ups and downs of "stabilizing enlightenment," and points to the same kinds of messes that you have described.
From my perspective, none if this is necessary, as it is what happens when the cart gets in front of the horse in lopsided advaita (non-duality) approaches, relying largely on "guru-energy." It is certainly not representative of my experience, and I hope not for others who are utilizing the AYP approach without excessive exposure to the powerful energies that are being thrown around these days. It is a sign of the times. When enlightenment is approached backwards (starting at the end instead of the beginning), this is what often happens.
When a teacher effectively (or actually) tells you, "I am here to chop off your (ego) head," it is the practitioner's choice whether to dive into that mess or not. There is very little practical infrastructure provided to support it (a la self-pacing). Let the buyer beware.
Just a point of view from a quiet place that seeks not to run people more ragged than they wish to be.
The guru is in you.
PS: You are not the only one riding the yo-yo. Many are who follow this kind of approach. I don't think it is faster. Maybe slower, with all the backing and filling that goes on.
PPS: As someone else pointed out recently, lamenting the loss of bhakti is bhakti.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 5:48:43 PM
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Yogani, thanks for your post!
All people are good for something. If they are not, they can at least be used as bad examples!  I'm grateful I can serve as one of those.
Just wanted to say, though, that I have never gone to a teacher with the hope they will chop my head off. I have gone to see teachers for the same reason I read your lessons - to learn from someone who has gone before me. And I think you know (since you say it yourself) that just hanging around this forum and reading AYP lessons is so powerful that it may be needed to be self-paced, because it's so saturated with Stillness. I actually had one of those flips just from reading your Self-Inquiry book, no? And you didn't promise to chop any heads off... neither has any other of the teachers I've listened to. Realized beings seem to be compelled to share what they have found themselves in the way they find most suitable. And I am grateful for all that sharing!
I've always appreciated your advice, Yogani. I think I'll log off this forum to self-pace properly, and quit the spiritual journey for as long as needed and then I might start from the beginning and do it the right order then... If it's possible. Who knows?
Thanks all, guys!
Much love!
emc
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 6:39:04 PM
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Hi emc:
Oh, no one likes to get their ego head cut off. But there are plenty of teachers out there now who find pleasure in it, without much concern for the near term consequences: Big highs and big lows for the practitioner. I have seen enough over the years to know it has become pretty common. Your posting here only reminded me of the chaos. Who is looking to smooth that out? Can it be smoothed out?
At least here you are advised to self-pace, and you should whenever necessary.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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christiane
Lebanon
319 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 10:23:44 PM
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Beautiful Emc,
I'm just reading your post, it's 5 am here, and I feel touched like you cannot imagine.
Maybe it will sound like a broken CD, but it seems we have a lot in common those days you and me.
An autobiography of a Yogi also came to me, although I only had a quick look at it, I saved it on my PC to read it when I feel ready. I'm not into reading those days, but this book is calling for me.
I don't have much to say to you, but I think the very concern about bakhti has some bhakti in it, hasn't it?
Also, I noticed you are often concerned about what people here think of your posts.. Why should you care?!!! Just express yourself as it comes.. nobody is here to judge nobody.
And we are all brand new each morning we get up! What I was yesterday is dead. Each moment I'm new. Each second billions of cells are created in my body...
The more it goes, the more I have a broader vision about the whole mind patterns, and at the end of the day, I just laugh at it all!!!
What a big joke!!! And I picture myself sailing from wave to wave!
The only important thing is to master the art of it, to dance with the waves without sinking!
About the PMS thing, tell me about it!!! I'm always surprised to see that each month, I forget about the effects it has on my emotional state.. each time is a new experience. Very interesting to see how the energy is affected, and the insights and sensitivity become more acute 2-3 days before the periods come.
It's all good!
Take everything with a big smile! The sweet and the bitter!
And if it happens that one day, I forget about all those things I said above, I count on you to shake me up and remind me of what I said myself
Much love to you emc...
you are beautiful. We are all one. |
Edited by - christiane on Jul 28 2009 11:14:38 PM |
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christiane
Lebanon
319 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 10:36:22 PM
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I join emc to say thank you Yogani..
thank you for the advices and book reference.
And yes, thank you for the reminder that
each seeker is responsible for himself.
Choosing to trust and surrender to a master needs
great awareness! So many so-called gurus are running
their business those days..
And so many people are following like sheeps..(I have nothing against sheeps by the way! )
Responsibility of being oneself, of listening to the heart and
inner guide.
_/\_ |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2010 : 11:16:00 AM
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The reason why i am opening up this thread again is gratitude, cause the teachings are first a great partner to go with AYP and second if practiced on a continuous basis they work and in time they become very easy to do and most of the times automatic.
Thank you De Mello the "Awareness practices" your works are a treasure.
Another great book of his which i strongly recommend is "Sadhana, a way to God"
http://www.amazon.com/Sadhana-Way-G...60095&sr=8-6
i've found almost everything nowadays famous advaita teachers are teaching (for ex: Adyashanti, Tolle, Byron Katie, Francis Lucille....) within Anthony's books.
God bless you Anthony you've been a blessing on my path(F).
Love
Ananda |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2010 : 9:16:40 PM
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Hi Ananda,
Thanks for this; I agree -- wholeheartedly!!
Adyashanti calls Anthony de Mello "one of my favorite enlightened guys."
And having been raised "casually Catholic", myself, I find it very interesting, and very inspirational, than enlightenment is truly found in all walks of life, including among Catholic priests.
Here's a link to some , for anyone who may be interested:
Quotes from Anthony de Mello
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2010 : 07:44:33 AM
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| Thanks K-Man |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2010 : 3:44:56 PM
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Unless you have made this distinction between crystal clear purity and mind, you are not enlightened.
Adyashanti included. |
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porcupine
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2010 : 3:58:55 PM
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I always thought enlightenment was when you realize that which you most desire, you are...
well when that happens, and I guess also before..
enlightenment is what happens when you
n light n
ment
you have two squats, (abandoned buildings taken up to be lived in again) on two sides of a light.. then you have a kid who wants to learn how to spell mint, and you say, sound it out!
and they say M-E-N-T
enlightenment |
Edited by - porcupine on Jun 21 2010 4:38:47 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2010 : 7:38:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Unless you have made this distinction between crystal clear purity and mind, you are not enlightened.
Adyashanti included.
Right. I agree that enlightenment is about dropping the illusions of separate self and concept, and experiencing that the actual experiencer is always pure awareness (what you're calling "crystal clear purity", what I often call original awareness), beyond any forms in (so-called) mind; simply: beyond any forms.
Terminology varies; just because someone uses slightly different terminology than you do, doesn't mean they're not enlightened, nor does it mean they're not articulating enlightenment clearly (because many are both enlightened, and articulating enlightenment clearly, whether or not the words "crystal clear purity" have ever crossed their lips, or their keyboard).
I get what you're saying though, and fundamentally agree (just not the part about Adyashanti).
Kashmir Shaivism has a similar model to Dzogchen, as I understand it, and both, in turn are similar to other "three tier" non-dual systems, including my own (Living Unbound).
The most expansive state (which can be called "crystal clear purity", among other things) is original awareness, and is completely non-dual.
The middle state is combined dual and non-dual, and is the realm of mind. Both the subtle forms of mind, and formless mind are here, and so this state is mixed, dual and non-dual.
The lowest state is the physical realm, combined with the grossest forms of mind (surface thoughts, definitions, etc.), and is fully dual.
And so, yes, certain spiritual systems "top out" at the upper end of that second level, and could be said to "not have made the distinction between crystal clear purity and mind".
Anyone actually enlightened, and any means which can actually contribute to the experiencing of abiding non-dual awareness, aka enlightenment, does understand this distinction, although, very important:
Both "understanding" and "distinction" are forms in the exact mind you're disparaging, here, and they have nothing to do with enlightenment. Nothing.
Neither understanding nor distinction have anything at all to do with enlightenment.
Enlightenment is the liberation resulting from the continual experiencing that everything arises from, occurs within and subsides back into, the crystal clear purity, aka non dual awareness, we actually are, now.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2010 : 7:57:47 PM
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I disagree purity can be called awareness. Awareness implies the mind is involved.
I agree terminology can vary, but I have not seen anything even remotely resembling the crucial distinction of purity from mind, except maybe the quote in the other thread by N.M. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jun 21 2010 9:44:11 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2010 : 10:08:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
I disagree purity can be called awareness. Awareness implies the mind is involved.
I agree terminology can vary, but I have not seen anything even remotely resembling the crucial distinction of purity from mind, except maybe the quote in the other thread by N.M.
Hi Alwayson,
Awareness is primary.
"Only a naked manifest awareness is present.
(This awareness) is empty and immaculately pure, not being created by anything whatsoever.
It is authentic and unadulterated without any duality of clarity and emptiness.
It does not exist as a single entity because it is present and clear in terms of being many.
This inherent self-awareness does not derive from anything outside itself.
This is the real introduction to the actual condition of things.
Within this (intrinsic awareness) the Trikaya are inseparable and fully present as one.
Since it is empty and not created anywhere whatsoever, it is the Dharmakaya.
Since its luminous clarity represents the inherent transparent radiance of emptiness, it is the Sambhogakaya.
Since its arising is nowhere obstructed or interrupted, it is the Nirmanakaya.
These three (the Trikaya) being complete and fully present as one, are its very essence."
Padmasambhava
Source: Yoga Spandakarika: The Sacred Texts at the Origin of Tantra by Daniel Odier.
When I use the term "awareness", I am using it the exact same way Padmasambhava uses it, in the quote, above.
Padmasambhava, who brought non-duality to Tibet from Oddiyana (a neighboring Indian kingdom, to Kashmir) in the 8th Century, and who said of himself:
"My father is the intrinsic awareness, My mother is the ultimate sphere of reality. I belong to the caste of non-duality of the sphere of awareness."
I'm guessing you're familiar with the Trikaya, described above, yes?
"These three (the Trikaya) being complete and fully present as one, are its very essence."
You may not be familiar with the name of Abhinavagupta's school of Shaivism; it's short-form name is Trika.
It's formal name is Anuttaratrikakula.
"The Ultimate {One} Embodied in the Three."
Here at the forum, I've referred to the "three in one in all" model of awareness-consciousness-experiencing.
This (the source of the Trika of Shaivism; the source of the Trikaya of Buddhism), is what I'm referring to when I say "awareness" (both as the source, and all facets of awareness-consciousness-experiencing vibrating {Spandakaraya) within it).
It seems this is also what you're referring to, when you say "crystal clear purity beyond mind."
Except for the bit of clarification of terms occurring right now, I'd say we agree on this; we've simply been using different terms for it.
Identification with the forms of mind is unenlightenment.
Knowing our true nature as the formless, unbound awareness (what you're calling crystal clear purity) is enlightenment, in any accurate-map non-dual system, including those found in Buddhism, Shaivism and elsewhere.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2010 : 11:49:22 PM
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| I don't consider english translations as citable material. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2010 : 12:44:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
I don't consider english translations as citable material.
Dude, your kinda in the wrong place then . . .I'm just saying.
This is a worldwide center for english understanding of yoga. |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2010 : 07:26:19 AM
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Ok atleast if I had the original Tibetan word used for "awareness"
I don't know Tibetan, but almost everyone following this material knows certain key words that pop up over and over again. |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2011 : 05:07:50 AM
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Francis Lucille on Awareness and De Mello
"We know a bit of what the sage experiences... 'no-self' is not entirely
foreign to us..... we experience it when we are working on something we
enjoy and there is an alertness and presence to the situation but no
thought of self..... and no sense of time.....or when we are with
friends, in timeless, selfless, friendliness with no thought of
self....just totality in unselfconscious joy... we don't even know we are
experiencing joy....we are joy...... And we know there have been these
moments.
For many of us our journey toward no-self is through attention to
awareness, consciousness, presence...whatever term we use for it. THAT,
in which objects, thoughts, feelings, the body and the world,
appears...... Awareness, that which is most 'I'.... an awareness that
would be so clearly there even if we lost our memory.... we would still
know, we are...... if we lost all memory, all sight, all hearing, all
sense of touch, all senses, we would still know, so clearly, that we
are.... Am-ness, awareness Itself.....
Most of us have discovered that going to this awareness is not an
effort..... not if we have tasted it even once..... and there is a
stirring each time presence reminds us of itself....awareness watching
awareness..... consciousness aware of itself....and there is a delight,
an ease, an at home ness there..... there is something inside us that
recognizes that we are on the right track..... this sacred awareness,
welcoming, without judgement, all that arises....is the way home.....
It is a process of unlearning.... of becoming less, not more..... Eckhart
Tolle put it like this....This is not a human development conference but
a human diminishment conference. It is about reducing self and increasing
awareness. It is seeing our reactions to things, resulting from beliefs
we are attached to, relationship were attached to, theories we are
attached to..... and just seeing them for what they are.... mere
appearances....that none of them is the truth..... just thoughts
appearing and disappearing.... arising and disappearing into something
that is of a totally different realm.
And when we take our stand as awareness, there is this freedom.....there
is a sense of being in the presence of Beauty.... with no effort
required..... because there is nothing to achieve..... it is more like
the effort of a starving person makes to eat his food, or a mountain
climber makes climbing his favorite mountain or going to one's
beloved..... a lot of energy expanded...perhaps, even hardship but it is
fun, ......effortless activity......
Anthony De Mello expressed it so beautiful in his last book, The Way to
Love...Tony was Indian and Jesuit..... a lovely combination..... He
speaks of what will happen if we turn our attenton to awareness.
"Will awareness bring you the holiness you so desire? Yes and no. The
fact is you will never know. For true holiness, the type that is not
achieved through techniques and efforts and repression, true holiness is
completely unselfconscious. You wouldn't have the slightest awareness of
its existence in you. Besides you will not care, for even the ambition to
be holy will have dropped as you live moment to moment a life made full
and happy and transparent through awareness. It is enough for you to be
watchful and awake. For in this state your eyes will see the Savior [the
Source]. Nothing else, but absolutely nothing else. Not security, not
love, not belonging, not beauty, not power, not holiness---nothing else
will matter any more."
It all happens by grace, and by grace, the witness too, will
disappear......for there is only the Beloved.... She is All That Is....."
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Awareness!
