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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 06 2009 : 5:15:10 PM
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Hi friends,
I think I need a little help.
Sometimes during meditation, the mantra begins to change. It becomes perhaps quieter, subtler, like a whisper, or louder, deeper or higher in sound, sometimes it resonates strongly in my body - causing me almost to move rhythmically, sometimes it becomes very quiet, sometimes it's being pronounced clearly, sometimes not very clearly. That is okay, I guess. But sometimes it arrives at a point, where it isn't actually a "mantra" anymore. At that time it isn't a "sound," nor does it contain anything similar to I AM. What remains is a periodically occurring vibration, or wave, without any particular "shape." Like when a drop hits a water surface, and causes a light vibration. Or sometimes a heavy vibration, like today, when the mantra (in the form of waves/vibrations) vent a little crazy, and caused rather strong vibrations, pulsating at high speed, and getting faster and faster. Usually each pulse consists of two sub-waves, like I AM also consists of I and AM. When this happens, my breath usually stops for quite long at Antara kumbhaka.
So the question is: Do those regular vibrations/pulses count as repeating the mantra? Am I off the mantra when I know, that I perceive just a subtle periodical vibration, which is really not "I AM?" Or is this still the mantra, but in a subtler form?
Hope this is intelligible  , I feel a bit helter-skelter after my last sit.
Would appreciate any feedback.
Roman |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 06 2009 : 8:30:38 PM
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| i think you are supposed to gently return to the mantra when you feel you are not saying it anymore. I would imagine that if you felt those vibrations were still the IAM mantra, then continue with them, but that wouldn't be normal consciousness! |
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Feb 07 2009 : 06:58:50 AM
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Thanks Etherfish.
Well, that's it... It's a bit of a dilemma now. In that state (and it sometimes lasts virtually for the whole sit,) the thought that I am not repeating/perceiving the words I AM usually comes several times. At the same time I feel that the pulsing vibration is causing something profound in me, and when I try to focus on the waves really exclusively (like enjoy every single one, and always eagerly await the next one - not alowing the mind to slip off to other things,) I think the mind gets fully occupied by it, for short periods of time (like one, or a few seconds.) What those repeating waves cause in my body feels really intense. Also I'm hardly breathing at all. I don't think it's normal consciousness. It's a trance, an immersion. When I try to leave the waves alone, and repeat the words I AM, and go with them instead, it feels like I'm doing something artificial.
Somehow I guess, that to stay with the vibrations, is the right way to go. But one never knows... Today I felt very calm, focused, and blissful after 20 minutes of this.
Roman
P.s.: Also, it might be important to say, that I always start off with the I AM repetition, but later the mantra slowly turns into those periodical waves.
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Edited by - mimirom on Feb 08 2009 5:20:39 PM |
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solo
USA
167 Posts |
Posted - Feb 07 2009 : 08:20:31 AM
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| I have a similar question. Sometimes I feel the mantra. First I say it, then I feel it vibrating throughout my body. When this happens, typically I will say the mantra, experience the vibration, then say the mantra again when that vibration has ended. Pretty common experience? |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Feb 07 2009 : 08:42:13 AM
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Hi Roman,
I think I know what you mean. I have the same, or a similar, "problem". I'll explain my own experiences and perceptions of them.
I have posted before on what I called a "pulsating energy" that I believe it's very similar to what you experience (http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=4802). And that is why I started doing breath awareness or just mindfullness during meditation as my attention seems to naturally want to go to these energy currents inside.
What I feel and been feeling from the start of meditating is like a pulse coming from the base of the spine up (or something like that). I believe I have had some kind of energy awakening in the past although I have not had any of the mystical experiences commonly associated with kundalini. Maybe it's a milder form of awakening (thank God!), I don't know. What happens to me is, often when I meditate, I start oscillating gently (my torso), from back to front, or side to side, or in a rotating matter, like a pendulum. It is not a voluntary movement and I know it is there even when I don't meditate. It just happens to "expand" and become more noticeable when I am relaxed or not moving or not thinking. This external oscillating gets quieter or stops but it is still there in the form of a pulse internally, more subtly. I don't oscillate anymore but there is this pulse, a kind of "pumping", from the base of the spine up, or even around my body. I had many obstructions in the neck/head and I feel it probably has to do with it - clearing obstructions in my spine.
But like yourself, the mind gets naturally attracted to these sensations that are quite appealing. I also start with the mantra and try to keep it there but find myself often in the state you describe - seemingly with no thoughts but at the same time aware I am not saying the mantra and at the same time immersed in these wave movements. The breath is also very very shallow or inexistent for a while. Like yourself I sometimes force myself to go back to the mantra but feels unnatural. I wish to remain in that state where there is no or very little mind activity and I am immersed in this pulse or vibration. There seems also to be a spaciousness inside. That is why I have been having dillemas also in relation to the mantra. But at the same time I know that it was mantra meditation that enabled me to get to this stage, so I feel a bit confused soemtimes as well.
I am experimenting with just being aware of what happens (no judging or labelling). It is appealing to me, I am drawn to it, and I naturally get immersed in these vibrations. For example today, just after waking up, I noticed these vibrations growing in me so I just sat on the bed with my legs crossed and back support and immersed myself in them. Just being aware, mind like a kid seeing something fascinating for the first time, just observing, not trying to control anything. Later I added the I AM mantra. I could immediately feel its vibration, a different quality, a rush of energy inside. Maybe more bliss, or rather joy, yes. It was as if I was not reciting or introducing any vibration, I was just tapping into the vibration of I AM that is already inside me If this makes sense  . It just grows and expands once I am "listening" to it.
Well, my friend, sorry if I cannot be of more help and give you straight answers. Seems like we are in similar boats here so at least it is good to know others experience similar things and have the same "problems". I decided to do the following: since it was 8 months of I AM mediattion that brought me here I will mainly stick with it but, because it feels like a too "automatic" method to me I sometimes (2-3 times a week) indulge in a little meditation of my own, just going inside and observing, being aware, nothing else. There is enough going on inside to caught my attention without my thoughts going into "grocery lists" and the like  . And I do enjoy it, so...Of course I am afraid I am digressing here and just being absorved into scenery, but what is the problem of enjoying a beautiful landscape now and then? If you are making a trip, why not enjoy it rather than being fixed in the ultimate destination?  The other approach seems too compulsive for my taste.
In this other thread I wrote a bit about the different experiences I've been having with the different types of meditation, related to this: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=5132#44754.
Again, sorry if this is too lenghty and confusing! Please do share with me further developments you've been having with this, as it migth help me as well. |
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - Feb 07 2009 : 09:27:32 AM
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| Roman, based on the video you posted on here I would say that you are reaching a point where the mantra is very subtle. I don't think it is a bad thing as long as you arent getting preoccupied with it to the point that you arent focusing on the "idea" of the mantra. At least you are still concentrated on the progression of the mantra. If you are losing that concept and just waiting for another cool experience then I'd say you're off it. Sounds good to me though |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 07 2009 : 11:59:55 AM
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| I think that because you are having the thought that you are not repeating the mantra, that you should return to it. It may be very profound scenery you are experiencing, but the feeling that the mantra is artificial may be your mind tricking you. You don't need to ignore the scenery to keep repeating the mantra. It is a method of staying on the road. |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Feb 07 2009 : 12:19:29 PM
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Hi Mimiron and All:
It sounds like good practice.
In time (months and years), the mantra "bakes in" and it will be common to experience it as a faint vibration beyond pronunciation. We start our session with a clear recognition of the mantra (clear pronunciation if needed), and after that it can be picked up as a faint vibration in the depths of stillness, if that is where we are. If we are in doubt about a faint vibration being the mantra, we can come up just far enough to confirm. In time that will not be necessary, as we become more familiar with our inner silence. This is how deep meditation goes deeper and deeper, beyond any other object of mind or senses, including breath, which will tend to suspend automatically along the way with the slow-down in metabolism. Deep meditation using the ever-refining vehicle of the mantra goes far beyond that, and this is what makes it so powerful.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 07 2009 : 10:07:26 PM
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| Thank you Yogani. |
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Shredder
USA
34 Posts |
Posted - Feb 08 2009 : 09:57:13 AM
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I've been having similar experiences during meditation. After a few minutes I get the feeling of waves, like I'm am floating on water in gentle waves. I could interpret that as pulses. It is a pleasant feeling, if I focus I can come out of it, but because I can keep in the mantra at the same time I don't focus on it much, just enjoy it. While I usually am able to keep the mantra going, although it does fade to a buz or faint vibration at times. When I notice it I go back to I AM. Sometimes I have to think about the mantra to remember it, it happens when I am saying/thinking some morphed mantra but do not even know what it is. My breath slows but I have not noticed it stopping. For me the pulses or waves seem to come from my throat. I assumed it was my pulse sensed in my throat area, I have no idea if that is what actually is what is happening though.
On another note, This capability to get to stillness seems to be inconsistent for me. At times I can struggle to meditate, and other times I can literally close my eyes and enter stillness. My sessions go from 15 minutes to 45, and at times I seem to be in some sort of meditation during the day while active. I chalk the inconsistance up to being new to this, and my lifestyle. I still drink coffee, eat meat (not much though), and have a glass of wine with dinner several times per week. Too much of any of these things affect my sessions. I suspect/hope that the inconsistencies will smooth out with practice and lifestyle changes...shredder |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 08 2009 : 10:58:19 AM
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Caffeine has a lot of effect for me. Try cutting down on caffeine for a while. I mix mostly decaf with a little regular to cut down. It takes 3 or 4 days for it to make a difference because the body stores caffeine. Don't have any authority on this, but it's what I've discovered.
Also nothing wrong with inconsistencies! Purification is like that. You can just keep plugging away with regular practices and not worry about differences in results.
I use those differences to fuel my bhakti. When you don't "get much" from a session, allow yourself to dwell on the longing for more peace several times throughout the day. Bhakti is powerful. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Feb 08 2009 11:02:21 AM |
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Shredder
USA
34 Posts |
Posted - Feb 08 2009 : 12:16:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Also nothing wrong with inconsistencies! Purification is like that. You can just keep plugging away with regular practices and not worry about differences in results.
I use those differences to fuel my bhakti. When you don't "get much" from a session, allow yourself to dwell on the longing for more peace several times throughout the day. Bhakti is powerful.
Thanks, good advice. I have noticed not expecting anything seems to help as well. Some of my most powerful meditations have come in the gym sauna, of all places. I do an hour of aerobics then some weights and stretching, then spend 20-30 minutes in the sauna. A while ago I thought what the heck? I'll do a little mediating in the sauna until the heat forced me to cool off with my water bottle, I knew my time would be short and I did not expect anything, turns out it was really powerful. Now I try not to expect or try for anything in particular, I want inner silence, love it when and if it happens but do not strain to get it or expect it. My guess is this is no great revelation for the more experienced here, as in giving up to get something, but was an eye opener to me....shredder |
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Feb 10 2009 : 6:05:10 PM
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Hi friends,
so many replies! You are all being very thoughtful once again. Thank you Yogani, Solo, YogaIsLife (good to meet you again,) Anthony, Ether, and Shredder.
YogaIsLife,
congrats to your progress, sounds very good. And thanks for sharing, of course. Although your experiences seemingly match my ones in some respects, I have a feeling, that what I'm trying to describe is different. I feel this difference also with what solo describes. The main thing is: what I mean, is not energies moving in the physical body. Although these energy currents and discharges accompany the experience, they are not what I'm pointing to. The vibrations I mean, happen in the mind. Also, these periodical vibrations gradually replace the words "I AM", in the mantra - the mantra slowly and gradually turns into them. It's not that I choose to focus on them instead of the mantra.
Hard to describe, uhh... It goes like this: I start off with sitting and quietly "listening." After a while I AM silently enters the mind (if I can't hear it, I help a little bit with saying it.) Every day it sounds different. After a while the mantra takes me into a state of deepening immersion. The mantra then begins to change as it likes, if it wants to. Sometimes it begins to become quieter and quieter. It turns into a whispering voice, very quiet. I have to sit still, not moving or breathing, not to disturb it. So silent is it. I AM......I Am.....i am.....i am..... Then it is like whispering with a closed mouth. It gets even quieter and also shorter, I can hardly recognize the words. Then it goes so quiet and faint, that I can't say that it's a word or sound anymore. It's just a repetitive, light, short, barely discernible shiver on the surface of the mind. Like what happens on the surface of water in a glass, when you stamp very lightly. And that goes on, again...again... another one...and one more.... ...~~~... ....~~~.... ...~~~.... Then, when I finally have to breathe out, even when I try to do it very slowly and gently, it is usually enough to disturb it, and make it somewhat grosser. Maybe it is me trying not to disturb it, that disturbs it...
Sometimes it seems to go even a little further. At that time the repeating action is not even a vibration, but only a very brief recognition, that the mantra exists somewhere. Not manifesting it in the mind, but only "acknowledging" it's existence, while keeping the mind nearly untouched by it.
Those repetitive, short vibrations seem to have a momentum. They carry the meditation forward.
So, it seems to be different to what you describe, no? In any case, your experiences sound interesting. I don't know many of them personally, especially those related to spinal breathing. Thanks for sharing. Somehow it seems to be interwoven, like when each of us two tries to describe the same thing from a different viewpoint. That's how I feel about it. Let me know if you can relate to the above description, and if it makes more sense to you now.
P.s.: Will check the other link as well.
Anthony,
thanks for great sensitivity for my issue. You are helping me more than you might think. Does the above attempt to describe my experience make more sense to you? What do you think now? I would appreciate your opinion, in case you feel more clear with the description I addressed to YIL.
quote:
I don't think it is a bad thing as long as you arent getting preoccupied with it to the point that you arent focusing on the "idea" of the mantra.
Ok, this seems to be related to what I am trying to express with the words:
quote:
At that time the repeating action is not even a vibration, but only a very brief recognition, that the mantra exists somewhere. Not manifesting it in the mind, but only "acknowledging" it's existence, while keeping the mind nearly untouched by it.
Is that what you meant by focusing on the "idea." Is that not a good way to go? It's hard to exactly express those things in words...
So, if anyone can suggest if I am on the right path, with these explanations, I'll be grateful.
I'll continue next time, gotta go sleep now...
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Edited by - mimirom on Feb 11 2009 04:34:50 AM |
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Rhythmical Pulses count as Mantra?
