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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 30 2005 : 11:45:42 AM
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This is a Q&A from my email that is representative of questions I receive from time to time on whether Taoist and Yoga methods can be mixed. If you have any thoughts on this, feel free to post them.
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Q: I have some questions I was hoping you can offer some advice or comments on. I am currently learning a taoist practise of self cultivation that largely deals with yin and yang chi. In level 1 of the system we are to make full the yang center which corresponds
to the dan tien and the yin center which corresponds to the perinium. Is there any yoga or taoist practise that you have heard about or read about that has an anology. When one is full in these centers they progress to level 2a which is to compress the yang chi stored in the dan tien into a small ball. Have you heard of any practises in taoist or yoga studies that try to do this. When one has passed this level it is then onto level 2b where the goal is to rotate the dan tien in order to break 5 chakras or nerve plexus that surround the dan tien. Have you heard of any practises in taoist studies or yoga studies that do this. After this, one enters level 3 where the dan tien or this small ball of yang chi is suspended by some ganglia. Level 3 is to break free from the ganglia and unite with the yin chi that is stored in the perinium where one enters level 4.
I was curious if you have heard of any taoist practises or yoga practises that have similar techniques or exercises to accomplish any or all of the steps listed above. Some clarifications or points or analogies would be most helpful.
A: Of course, both taoist and yoga systems are dealing with the same human nervous system and capabilities. While the two approaches are similar in some ways, there are many differences too, and a full marriage does not seem to be easy, or practical.
The taoist approach is much more energy (chi/prana) oriented than yoga, storing it and utilizing it for both worldly and spiritual purposes, perhaps because of its marital arts energy management orientation. Yoga goes for a holistic vertical integration immediately energy-wise in the spinal nerve (sushumna) and therefore does not cover the particular energy manipulations and storage at the dan tien (a point just below the navel) you mention. No marital arts orientation in yoga. Yoga also puts a lot of emphasis on the cultivation of pure bliss consciousness (inner silence) via meditation and related methods, which is a very important difference from most taoist systems.
I am a long time tai chi practitioner myself, and find it to be an excellent "grounding" practice, which can be a benefit in yoga during various stages of inner purification. I have also investigated other taoist methods over the years and have found benefit in the taoist tantric approach, which clarifies the meaning and practical application of brahmacharya (the preservation and cultivation of sexual energy). Beyond a daily tai chi routine and using some of the taoist tantric principles and methods (built into the AYP tantra lessons), I have not pursued the energy management methods you have mentioned very much, so cannot offer additional comparisons with yoga on those. Perhaps others have looked further into those aspects than I have.
Keep in mind that my orientation has been yoga since the beginning 30-some years ago, and I have drawn on other systems, including taoist, to supplement yoga as practical. Maybe your orientation is taoist, and you are looking to supplement it with other systems, like yoga. There is nothing wrong with that. But there will only be so much you can use from other systems, depending on what you regard your core system to be. It is very difficult to equally divide practices between two or more systems, and that I do not recommend. Much better to choose a system having good set of compatible tools and then supplement here and there as necessary. That is what I did with yoga. In my case, a lot of the supplementing came by reaching across the lines dividing the various yoga systems themselves. I call it an integration of advanced yoga practices, as you know. There was a much higher rate of compatibility there. So, if taoism is your core practice, maybe it would be better to be looking across the various lines within taoism first. I know that some taoist lines pay much closer attention to meditation than others. That is what many taoist systems are missing in my opinion. I do not believe that enlightenment can be achieved via chi/prana management alone. It is the same problem we find in kriya yoga, kundalini yoga, and other predominantly prana-based yoga systems. Deep meditation has to be brought in to complete the circuit of polarities. Inner silence and ecstatic (chi) energy must be joined everywhere to complete the process of enlightenment. So we need both sides -- not only one side.
How TAOism became so CHI-oriented is something of a mystery. In chasing the CHI, the TAO itself (undifferentiated pure bliss conscousness) seems to have gotten overlooked. So TAOism has become CHI-ism. From where I sit, the question is not how to do more with CHI. The real question is how to get the TAO (inner silence) back into TAOism. Perhaps this is already covered in the line of taoism you are following. As mentioned, some taoist lines do include meditation. But not many...
Just some food for thought.
I wish you all success on your chosen spiritual path. Enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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Postscript -- On the surface, it might appear that navi kriya (just covered in AYP lesson #275) and mulabandha/asvini would address the perineum to dan tien question raised above. I don't believe so, as these practices do not involve the storage and further manipulation of pranic energy at that level in the body. Rather, they are for enlivening and promoting the full integration of ecstatic conductivity body-wide -- cultivating the "whole body mudra." So, while taoist and yoga methods are working in the same areas of the nervous system, the goals and results may be quite different. For more detail on the yoga side of it, see http://www.aypsite.org/275.html
Perhaps those experienced with taoist methods can add more from that perspective.
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Sep 30 2005 : 6:56:06 PM
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Hi Yogani,
I am not trying to be contradictory, I just don't understand how Kriya Yoga has been able to produce many (so called) great and "fully enlightened" saints if it is, as you point out, missing the full meditation part of the equation? Lahiri Mahasaya, Yogananda, Hariharananda etc. were all supposed to have received this practice via Babaji and successfully obtained a fully enlightened states(I do have a little trouble believing all the related stories, but who knows).
I know very little about kriya yoga other than what I have read on the first initiation as it is so secretive. They seem to perform various mudras while chanting Om at some of the chakra points, so it seems to me that they appear to be mixing pranayama and mantra meditation at the same time. Maybe they were benefiting from this bit of meditation mantra work at the chakras somehow?
There is a good article on the 1st initiation at this link: http://www.lifepositive.com/spirit/...chniques.asp
What negative results did their system produce and how were some, seemingly, able to make it to a very realized (if not fully) and clear state? I would love to hear your perspective and I hope you don't mind this line of questioning.
thanks,
Anthem11 |
Edited by - Anthem on Sep 30 2005 6:57:24 PM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Oct 01 2005 : 12:38:18 AM
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Hi Andrew:
There can be little doubt that the original masters of kriya yoga are enlightened beings. Lahiri Mahasaya, the first visible person in the kriya line - late 1800s, said that enlightenment is a "merging of emptiness and euphoria." I have quoted that one in the lessons, because it captures the importance of cultivating both inner silence and ecstatic conductivity in the nervous system as distinct components of the enlightenment process. Metaphorically, these are shiva (silence) and shakti (ecstasy) within us, and each has its own cultivation requirements.
You know, kriya yoga has gone in so many directions since its early days that one has to go through several lines just to find all the original pieces. It has been done as much as possible for AYP. Not only with kriya, but with all the major yoga systems.
It may be that deep meditation played a prominant role in kriya yoga at one time, but evidence of it now is hard to find. My thoughts on combining pranayama and deep meditation are expressed early in the lessons. See http://www.aypsite.org/43.html I don't think it is an effective approach, and have seen evidence of it in those who have gone this way, bringing me to the conclusion a long time ago that it is not possible to do effective pranayama and deep meditation at the same time. Some may disagree.
In fact, in the original system of kriya yoga, a passive form of meditation was specified to be done after spinal breathing. That method is less effective than the pro-active mantra yoga method we use here in AYP. That is why AYP is what it is -- an attempt to improve on what has gone before, or perhaps restore what has been fragmented and eroded would be a better way to put it. If you take the modern forms of kriya yoga, or just about any other tradition, it is a pretty watered down situation these days. Blame it on the foibles of people and the passage of time ... it is no reflection on the great ones.
That is why I think it is so important to collect and integrate all of this precious knowledge and put it in writing as an open source. If we don't, there won't be much left to work with in a few more generations. Hopefully, gifted souls will test the work we are doing now and take it to the next levels of clarity in the decades to come.
The guru is in you. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Oct 02 2005 : 4:03:53 PM
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Hi Yogani,
Thanks for this reply. I guess the modern day status of kriya is the risk that is run from passing things down orally and not documenting the process in a more permanent and unchanging way. There is a group that can be found at www.kriya.org that claim to be practicing the very same yoga as was first given out by Lahira Mayasaya, but since it is secret stuff and there is nothing documented by the kriya master to compare it to, who is to say if it is authentic and complete or not.
It makes me think about the original source behind all of the teachings and practices which lead to enlightenment that have surfaced over centuries. Hopefully those few souls who are able to perceive the true nature of the universe will continue to be born and provide the rest of us with the tools to help us reach this freedom, even if these very tools become lost or distorted over time. Having said that, I have always been of the mind that there are many ways to the top of the mountain and it is the undeterred seeker who will reach that summit irregardless of the tools or the paths that are initially chosen. Eventually what is needed will manifest and I am certain that is what has brought all of us here to AYP.
Anthem11 |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Oct 02 2005 : 5:36:48 PM
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Yes, where there is the will, there is a way.
The guru is in you. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Oct 02 2005 : 6:42:25 PM
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Hi again Yogani,
I wanted to add to my previous post and articulate more clearly that from my perspective, the true source behind the inspiration of great spiritual practices over the centuries, which seemingly have come and gone, seems to have always ensured that the tools have been available to sincere seekers. AYP appears to have come along at the most ideal moment in a period of fragmented and watered down practices to again provide a clear and direct way to be our true selves.
I have noticed that you have mentioned on previous occasions that you feel that these inspired practices in AYP have come though you from this same source of wisdom. From my perspective, after practicing AYP for not even a year yet, I could never have anticipated or imagined the growth I would experience and at the incredibly fast rate it has unfolded. They are such powerful practices to the point where we have to pace ourselves in order to not get ahead of our capacities. I have practiced other types of mediation for 16 years before, admittedly not nearly as regularly, but never expereinced the depths of meditation or the amounts of energy flow as I have with AYP.
This is certainly evidence to me that AYP is the spiritual system that will lead far greater numbers than ever before to true happiness and peace.
Anthem11 |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 02 2005 : 7:03:57 PM
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Another possibly important piece to the puzzle -- I believe that various Kriya yoga schools do teach deep meditation but it is saved for much later stages. It is then sometimes called 'Omkar Kriya', where they meditate on OM but take a 'listening' approach.
BTW, it was Yogani who was able to explain to me what Omkar Kriya meant (I was never initiated into the later Kriyas).
So this could explain how Kriya Yoga helped many people to become enlightened -- provided they stayed long enough to start doing the meditation.
There has been something of a tradition in many yoga schools to save the meditation until much later, when the practicioner has already shown a lot of 'purity' (in my experience this can also mean dedicating a lot of time, energy and/or money to the school!). Other schools have understood (or figured out even in the last few decades) that this saving-till later is wrongheaded because meditation itself can be the ultimate purifier. Waiting for purity before starting meditation has been likened to insisting on clearing all the snow away before bringing on the snow-plow!
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Oct 03 2005 10:40:40 AM |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Oct 03 2005 : 5:28:17 PM
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Hi,
Meditation is the ultimate purifier, never mind could be!I think all spirtual systems are great to work with and have the utmost respect for all on this path as it is a long and patient one.Having said that if one works with hatha yoga alone you will be a long time(if at all)awakening the kundalini without the aid of meditation.Unfortunately it seems many teachers are in fact ignorant of many facts(not their fault)reagrding yoga.I'm surprised how many don't even know the true aim of yoga.In many classes it seems to be taught simply as a health aid which in itself is not a bad thing(and I guess it puts 'bums on seats')but it doesn't lead those searching to the true path their souls may be searching for.
L&L
dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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babaji
India
3 Posts |
Posted - Oct 04 2005 : 7:50:10 PM
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The original post is regarding taoist and yoga practises and there possible similarites or differences. Somehow that got sidetracked a little. Just to add some comments to the original post. If one simply sits in meditation and breaths naturally they will absorb the so called yin energy from the ground and the yang energy from the air. The yang energy somes from the sun and the yin energy from the moon. This is a natural phenomenon. The taoists since there main focus was to study longevity they studied many things such as herbs, breath, kung fu, tai chi, sex practises and most importantly their enironment, the nature around them.
Many of the taoist practises that relate to breath came from India. I am not sure if the taoists developed these breathing exercises on their own or they used what they got from the Indians or a combination of both. There are only so many ways to breath and there is only one physical body, one astral body, one causal body and beyond. There is only one nervous system so methods maybe similar. A human body has the same number of chakras. A man has two eyes, two legs and two arms. A man has the same number of organs as any other man and they all do the same thing.
The taoists focused more on a natural approach that is this energy is something that you can harness. It was more of a science for them. They developed techniques to withstand cold, hunger, sleep. It was a science for them but the study was a natural one. Of course over hundreds or thousands of years you will perfect a practise.
In yoga the yogi's aim is to unite with the one, God. His practise is more spiritual. The yogi developed methods to reach god. Yoga is thought of more as a spiritual practise. Many of the breathing techniques in yoga are very similar to those in taoist practises. Many of the siddhis that a yogi develops are the same ones found in a taoist practise.
I hope to hear from some that can add to this kind of discussion |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Oct 06 2005 : 12:19:59 PM
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I've done a bunch of the Taoist stuff. I learned an enormous amount from it, though I haven't been into it in years (brief exception mentioned below). I'm sure that practice was a major factor in the ease of my (later) kundalini awakening, and it short-cutted me to an early awareness of my energetic kosha. The Taoist practice...oh, let's just call it what it is: the Mantak Chia material (nothing else is as accessible and integrated...without Chia, you need to become an initiate in various jealous monastaries to be given bits and pieces of practices) offer a much more precise model for moving energy around the body. If you're an Iyengar yoga practitioner (as I am), geared toward specific, subtle, complex manipulations of the body, that precision and specificity is much food for thought. I'm glad I learned macrocosmic orbit, it served me well in everything I did later. But I'm more tempermentally suited for yoga...more interested in a meditative approach than a martial arts approach (it should be noted though that Tai Chi is every bit a martial art, though it's the most abstract one). The decision is almost one of "style"...if you dabble in Zen, Taoism, Yoga, TM, Devotional, Vedanta, Sufism, etc, it doesn't take long to find the one that resonates.
Macrocosmic orbit (and the associated practices) isn't just another wrinkle on pranayama. It's another thing, it's another mapping system, and it does NOT have good correspondence to yoga pranayama in general or AYP specifically. It would be a serious mistake to practice both simultaneously.
As Yogani says, tai chi is more "modular". Like asana, it's something that CAN be mixed and matched in other practices and traditions. And other Taoist practices, (e.g. Inner Smile - one of the most beautiful, deep, and powerful practices ever, though nobody much gives it its due) work ok with yoga or anything else. What Yogani's saying - and I want to underline it, 'cuz it's so important - is not to combine schools of specific energy work (or of specific meditation...as opposed to the diffuse meditation of, say, asana or tai chi practice). The different approaches seductively seem to be insightful facets of the same thing. That may, indeed, be true, but even if you could bridge them all without screwing yourself up, there'd be little point, because the practices are mere efficacious tricks to point you to realization. And that IS the universal thing. Many boats can get you across the river, so work on getting across the river...and don't get bogged down collecting boats!
I must note that I myself disregarded my own advice (with great care/consideration) at one specific point. I had a kundalini overload problem - very minor, but I was not about to just shrug it off. I did shift to Taoist energy practices at the time. They're more precise, they offer more control of what's going on, and I just had to get the energy down from my head. AYP is about both cultivating and balancing energy, but I wasn't looking for holistic balance, I was looking to accomplish a certain end. Macrocosmic Orbit practice helped enormously, and once I'd moved the energy and rectified the problem (it took a few weeks), I got off the Taoist track and returned to yoga. I wouldn't want to make that shift often.
Do check out Inner Smile, though. It seems like an ultra "lite" practice, but it really isn't. If you dive deeply into it, it's actually a beautiful extension to pratyahara. I do it for a few mins between AYP and the relaxation time. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Oct 06 2005 1:11:52 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 06 2005 : 2:33:51 PM
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Jim,
I am interested in trying the Inner Smile.
Do you have a good link for instructions on it? I can't google out anything (easily) on the web. Most of the hits are for selling CDs or books for it and even then I don't know if they instruct it well or badly.
Thanks a lot,
-David |
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Richard
United Kingdom
857 Posts |
Posted - Oct 06 2005 : 4:11:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Jim,
I am interested in trying the Inner Smile.
Do you have a good link for instructions on it? I can't google out anything (easily) on the web. Most of the hits are for selling CDs or books for it and even then I don't know if they instruct it well or badly.
Thanks a lot,
-David
Hello David I know this wasn't addressed to me but i have a PDF on inner smile would you like it if you would e-mail me.
Blessings
RICHARD |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Oct 06 2005 : 5:18:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
I am interested in trying the Inner Smile.
Do you have a good link for instructions on it? I can't google out anything (easily) on the web. Most of the hits are for selling CDs or books for it and even then I don't know if they instruct it well or badly.
THe PDF is, I believe, by Michael Wynn. It's very complex, very challenging, and (to my sensibility) doesn't capture a lot of the essense of the practice (though I have LOTS of respect for Wynn). The alternative is to read one of the basic Mantak Chia books which describe the practice. The problem is I don't love it when Chia goes into detail on it, either, as he does in Awaken Healing Energy through the Tao. It's better to just get the gist and explore. The gist is to direct your awareness to each of your individual organs and to direct loving, benficial feeling/energy/vibes thereto. Last step is you do your eyes, thereby healing and charging the whole nervous system (which connects to the eyes). That's really enough to get you going right there. If you don't know where each organ is, bone up with anatomy resources first. And just do the major ones...the islets of langerhans, for example, can probably get along without your help. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2005 : 1:56:05 PM
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| I should add that the notion of "smile" is essential. It's not just new agey platitude. You may have realized that there's a way to smile energetically without curling your mouth. That energy is what you need to send to your organs. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2005 : 11:53:03 AM
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Thanks for the comments Jim.
Interestingly, we may often find practices coming to us that seem to be related to something that we found spontaneously. I remember you saying that with Samyama. I have found a spontaneous practice recently which seems like Inner Smile in some ways. My practice is simple to express -- I sit and Enjoy. I Enjoy the breath, the sounds around me, my internal organs, my resting body and mind, the soft spaces between my thoughts. I make no attempt at any kind of meditation or search whatsoever. I merely take what is there and Enjoy it to the full. It seems to have a profoundly good effect on me.
The process creates a 'virtuous circle': The Enjoying causes the rest; the rest creates greater Enjoying.
I wonder if this actually is Inner Smile, expressed differently?
It does seem to be more passive than Inner Smile though. I don't consciously (or intentionally) direct energy anywhere. The energy does get directed though, as a result of my Enjoying. It could be that my practice is like a developed stage of Inner Smile, when intentional directing of the energy is not required.
Any comments?
Thanks,
-Davod |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Oct 10 2005 6:48:18 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2005 : 6:49:07 PM
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Inner smile is really specific, intense, focused attention on each organ, one at a time. Real dharana. The inner smile is neither mental nor emotional; it's energetic, and it achieves serious effects. Especially the part about the eyes, which if you explore will lead you to all sorts of stuff.
Also, "enjoyment" is in the mind and emotions, whereas Inner smile is about energy. It's designed as a self-healing practice, mostly, but it's excellent dharana, too.
Re: your enjoyment exercise, let me give you a different way to try doing it. This refers to something I recently said in another thread. I'm going to explain it in shorthand, 'cuz it's better to let people discover stuff on their own. Sometimes leads are better than manuals.
Recall a moment when you wouldn't have changed a thing about the universe (what most people refer to as a "peak experience"). Remember it viscerally - really conjure up how it felt. Then find that feeling wherever you are, whatever you're doing. Throughout your day, ask yourself "and NOW? and NOW?", even when you stub your toe or miss the bus. For extra points try to remember, at the last peak moment, what made you STOP feeling that way - what knocked you off that feeling. This is a backdoor way into advaita I'm currently working on. If you work it through (and it takes TIME), you'll learn stuff.
This posting contains the nucleus of various stuff I've been spending months working on very intensively and which has brought me lots of opening. I'd be beyond thrilled if it helped anyone else (or, better, led to deeper insight than I've gotten out of it). Report back your findings (on this and anything else you do), every body. It'll help somebody somewhere sometime. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2005 : 10:42:19 PM
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"Especially the part about the eyes, which if you explore will lead you to all sorts of stuff"
Hmmm...I'm not really giving quite enough clues, though I gave it away in a posting above: Pratyahara. Do Inner Smile, and finish up with that innocent seeming direction to send energy through the eyes to feed and heal the nervous system (which of course connects to the eyes). After a few months of this, it won't feel imaginary, and you'll be surprised at your interior "reach". Gradually add on doing the same with the other five senses - individually, then together. Don't rush it as I'm rushing this posting, it won't do you any good (or harm for that matter). Take your time, this is a long haul practice and it comes in dribs and drabs. I won't describe it further, but, in the end, you may experience what I believe pratyahara is really all about - a deeper and more specific practice than the extant yoga texts describe. I believe pratyhara is a missing spot where the ancient wisdom has not survived, and I lucked onto it thanks to this buried suggestion from Mantak Chia. And because I might forget to say later, the other tie-in is when you launch mantra in meditation, don't "say" it, listen for it. Deeply, in the interior of the body. Through exactly this same reversal of the senses. I got that from Swami Rama, and it's a goodie. And if that turns you on, check out nada yoga (I haven't yet, for various reasons, mostly that I believe it conflicts with AYP for reasons we can discuss in another thread if anyone wants to start one).
The rest of Inner Smile (i.e. sending smiling energy to organs one at a time) is good, too. This other stuff is just a digression. VERY helpful for me, though. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Oct 10 2005 10:46:29 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 11 2005 : 10:15:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
"Especially the part about the eyes, which if you explore will lead you to all sorts of stuff"
Thanks for the comprehensive reply Jim. I am looking forward to experimenting my way through this stuff.
-David |
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rabar
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - Dec 04 2005 : 4:16:37 PM
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I've used the Inner SMile for some years with good results.
It's something that should be taught in first and second grades.
In fact, I made a simple version for use in the classroom and
sent it around.
I have a text version based on Mantak's cassette, which I find
difficult to use because of his accent. Michael Wynn site is a
good resource for Tao yoga materials, however, and I have used
his videos.
I now have recorded whispered instructions (to duplicate the
inner voice) for the Inner Smile over a background of a group
OM, some mahamudra instructions leading up to some 'sleep-
learning' suggestions. If anyone wants a copy, let me know.
I need a 'push' to make one for general use (mine has some
suggestions that focus on my specific relationships). But I
can send the text version of the Inner Smile right away. Glad
to read that others appreciate it equally!
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2005 : 10:10:52 PM
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I've been studying lessons from Self Realization Fellowship (Yogananda's written lessons) for a couple years, which is
a kriya yoga system, and deep meditation is the ONLY thing
they emphasize, mixed with devotion. They just gave me
basic kriya stuff now, although I could have gotten there
sooner. They won't give kriya stuff until they are sure you
are doing deep meditation first, and OM in addition.
But their meditation isn't structured, mostly just "go deep."
So with a practical mind like mine, I do better with the
Iam mantra. I even stopped my thoughts with unstructured
meditation with less effect than Iam.
of course part of my problem may be that I don't take well
to a lot of devotion, and Yogananda is full of devotion.
Etherfish |
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2005 : 11:38:31 PM
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Greetings,
Sorry this may be a bit offtopic, but I want to learn the taoist practices of 'big cosmic wheel' and 'small cosmic wheel'. I know the words may not be the same as commonly used but perhaps somebody knows what I'm talking about? I'm having trouble finding any concrete info on these practices. Anybody have any links/books you could recommend?
Warm regards,
Chiron |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Dec 18 2005 : 2:31:15 PM
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Hi Chiron:
Here are some Taoist resources from the AYP book list: http://www.aypsite.org/booklist3.html
Some of the clearest writings on Taoist practices are by Mantak Chia. Two more of his books are shown on the sexology list: http://www.aypsite.org/booklist13.html
Useful stuff to know, but you will not find much on deep meditation in any of these books, and that is a major shortcoming.
All the best on your chosen path!
The guru is in you.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Dec 19 2005 : 08:43:44 AM
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| Chiron--macrocosmic orbit and microcosmic orbit. If you study that, please do not also do AYP (advanced yoga practices) pranayama (spinal breathing) or any other yoga pranayama at the same time. One at a time, please! And, yes, Mantak Chia is the guy for this. |
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sunflower
2 Posts |
Posted - Dec 21 2005 : 10:21:48 PM
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hello,
i don't often reply to forums, but this is one of my interests and so i'd like to comment on a few of the points people have made. my background is in a taoist practice that uses sexual energy that was taught to me through my martial arts lineage.
my understanding of the process of the macrocosmic orbit is that the practitioner cultivates energy through different practices. actually, any of the martial, kung fu, tai chi or chi gung practices could be used because the different types of energy they cultivate is considered to be on the same spectrum. maybe they just differ by density. jing- chi- shen is the formula with jing being the most dense. the exercises cultivate, focus, and then transforms raw energy into spiritual energy, shen. with the taoist tantric practice, sexual energy, jing, is built and directed through the macrocosmic orbit to move from the base through the crown. this activity opens and balances yin and yang in each energy center. my system refers directly to the chakras but i think you could also use other points basically along the spine.
my experience of this sounds very similar to what is described in the AYP lessons. maybe i'm not understanding the ayp process correctly. aren't you trying to bring the energy up from the root, through the sushumna, and out the crown? or did i miss something?
another thing i wanted to say is that taiji practice IS very grounded, as was pointed out. but i think the meditation aspect of it is not being fully recognized. "you must find the stillness in movement and the movement in stillness." you spoke of how yoga has been fragmented and that has certainly happened to the taoist practices, especially when they hit the american audience. i have heard a school say that people can't understand the intricacies of taiji and so why bother teaching them? that school has a large thriving business in my town
(that incidentally heavily focuses on the religious aspect of their "taoist tai chi." An important practice in taiji is called standing post (matak chia anyone?) and you can't have good taiji without it. it is a standing meditation. that is one piece that you learn, the form is another, and specific drills on technique are another, etc. all of those parts are taught seperately, or not at all sometimes, and the practitoner puts them all together. but the way eastern philosophy works is that each piece has a part of the whole already inside it.
i think the reason we place so much emphasis on the dantien is becuase it is the energetic and physical center of the body. focusing on it is one of the best ways to shift the mind consciousness out of the head. in taoist yoga, energy is cultivated there and then goes through a complex process of transformation that processes energy through the center of the body along the spine and out of the head.
and yes, the inner smile is a lovely practice!
take care, sunflower
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Dec 22 2005 : 10:41:50 AM
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Hi Sunflower:
Thanks much for chiming in on this one. You have added some nice perspectives.
There can be no doubt that both Yoga and Taoism have wandered somewhat from their roots. That is a combination of market demand and the withering of the message over the centuries of being passed down.
The good news is that the "roots" are in us, and we can rediscover them by testing the means at our disposal and refining our way back to what is true in us. Open communications are the way, so phooey on the esoteric approaches, I say. 
As for Taoist versus Yoga methods, there are some significant differences, and thank you, Jim, for reminding us on the breathing techniques especially (spinal breathing versus microcosmic orbit).
Yet, it is not as different as it might seem, at least not in AYP. We do not go up and out the crown. That is regarded as dangerous in the AYP approach, due to risk of premature crown opening (many complications) and other things related to maintaining speed and balance of purification and opening. AYP merges both ascending and descending energies from root to brow (third eye, as we call it) in spinal breathing. Big difference from straight up and out the top. And we start with deep meditation, a separate practice, which is direct merging of our sense of self with inner silence from the very beginning. We keep deep meditation as the central core practice, even as we are adding many other things on. AYP is a dual cultivation of inner silence and what we call "ecstatic conductivity" in the nervous system. Together, these two merge to become the One within and around us. And that is experienced as outpouring divine love. The Tao (stillness) in action!
The cultivation of ecstatic conductivity involves direct application of sexual methods as well, with overlap with Taoist methods in the AYP approach to tantra.
Taoism as you describe it, with the stillness component (the Tao) cultivated, is not so different. Yet the methods are different, in Taoism aiming more for stillness in action (marital) from the beginning, which is something we arrive at in AYP along the way (stillness first, then action). Either way, it is the same nervous system we are dealing with, so the same capabilities will manifest in an order more or less according to the means applied. Assuming optimal application of methods in each system, the end result will be the same. That is why the traditions have so much in common -- all are working with the same human vehicle.
I think it is good for Taoists to have some understanding of Yoga and for Yogis and Yoginis to have some understanding of Taoism. Which is not to say one ought be doing both systems at the same time. Neither can we be driving two cars at the same time. But the more we know about cars in general, the better driver we will be of our own car.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Dec 22 2005 : 12:10:18 PM
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Thanks for posting, sunflower; I hope you do it more!
I agree that this thread underestimated the meditative potential of tai chi and other Chinese practices. Just because you're not sitting cross legged with eyes closed doesn't mean you're not doing a form of meditation. However, the meditation one does in movement (tai chi) is different. Better or worse? Who knows! But definitely different.
quote:
my experience of this sounds very similar to what is described in the AYP lessons. maybe i'm not understanding the ayp process correctly. aren't you trying to bring the energy up from the root, through the sushumna, and out the crown? or did i miss something?
Not out the crown. AYP is very careful to avoid the crown entirely, due to the fact that premature crown opening, in Yogani's estimation, is the cause of the scary kundalini symptoms we've all heard about. AYP directs it out the third eye, between the eyebrows. But I'm not clear on what your practice is, either. If you're doing microcosmic orbit, then there's no "up and out"....it's "up and around", no?
Standing post sounds interesting. I'll try to learn more about it (though I don't practice tai chi).
quote:
the way eastern philosophy works is that each piece has a part of the whole already inside it.
That is DEFINITELY true of yoga, as well. All these different yogas you hear about are different facets/aspects of the same thing. Except Bikram Yoga(TM), which is a facet/aspect of the American fast food system (sorry, Bikram adherents, just teasing!)
quote:
i think the reason we place so much emphasis on the dantien is becuase it is the energetic and physical center of the body. focusing on it is one of the best ways to shift the mind consciousness out of the head.
Again, there's a parallel in yoga. But in yoga attention comes to reside in the heart (many yoga teachers instruct this; AYP just lets it naturally happen). Being less interested in strength and resolve (dantien) and more interested in empathy and opening (heart), that's why I shifted from Taoist practice to yoga. It's no more "deep" than a question of style, really.
Again, thanks for the great post!
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Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Dec 22 2005 12:13:25 PM |
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Mixing Taoist and Yoga Practices
