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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 4:23:34 PM
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Namaste Friends,
My topic here is about a specific translation of the Bible verse Matthew 6:33. The "official" modern translation is: "Seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you". The original Latin Vulgate translation is "quaerite autem primum regnum et iustitiam eius et omnia haec adicientur vobis" which as it turns out is very hard to translate to modern English, but the translation in the Douay-Rheims Bible which is a direct translation from Latin to Old English is "Seek ye therefore first the kingdom of God, and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you." When I type the Latin words into an online translator I get something like..."seek but in the first place royal power/control/kingdom and righteousness (no word for eius) and in all respects these (no word for adicientur but assume it to be added or addition) you." Obviously there has to be some "translation" as literal does not work. But I found a site with several versions of this verse and here they are:
Latin Vulgate
6:33 quaerite autem primum regnum et iustitiam eius et omnia haec adicientur vobis
King James Version
6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
American Standard Version
6:33 But seek ye first his kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Bible in Basic English
6:33 But let your first care be for his kingdom and his righteousness; and all these other things will be given to you in addition.
Darby's English Translation
6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you.
Douay Rheims
6:33 Seek ye therefore first the kingdom of God, and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you.
Noah Webster Bible
6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.
Weymouth New Testament
6:33 But make His Kingdom and righteousness your chief aim, and then these things shall all be given you in addition.
World English Bible
6:33 But seek first God`s Kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things will be added to you.
Young's Literal Translation
6:33 but seek ye first the reign of God and His righteousness, and all these shall be added to you.
Nowhere is there a translation that I can find that includes the word "within" after kingdom as Yogani suggest here http://www.aypsite.org/16.html in this lesson. Perhaps someone can shed some light on where this version exists if it does, and if it doesn't, Yogani can you please explain why you chose to modify the original text to fit your requirements? I got my ass handed to me today in debate with my father over the correct translation of this verse. Damn.
Love,
Carson
EDIT...Better yet here is the original Hebrew and it's literal translation to English...
æçôåéôå äå ðñùôïí ôçí âáóéëåéáí ôïõ èåïõ êáé ôçí äéêáéïóõíçí áõôïõ êáé ôáõôá ðáíôá ðñïóôåèçóåôáé õìéí
seek but firstly the reign of the kingdom of God and the righteousness and these things all (will be) additioned to you.
No within.
Edit...Sorry, the Hebrew I cut and paste did not show up as Hebrew...Here is the link to the site I got that info from...
http://scripturetext.com/matthew/6-33.htm |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Oct 28 2008 4:40:02 PM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 4:36:58 PM
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Hi Carson
Just found the quote below here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_God
quote:
C. H. Dodd and John Dominic Crossan argued that the “Kingdom” was fully manifest in the present teaching and actions of Jesus. Through his words and deeds the “Kingdom” was brought into the present reality of Palestine. Dodd coined the term “realized eschatology” [21] and largely based his argument on Luke 11:20, and Luke 17:21 claiming that “the kingdom of God has come to you” and “the kingdom of God is within you”. Crossan imagined Jesus as a cynic-like peasant who focused on the sapiential aspects of the “Kingdom” and not on any apocalyptic conceptions [22].
I'll look further.....since these are interpretations. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 4:39:20 PM
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And further:
http://www.qhpress.org/quakerpages/.../stuke02.htm
quote:
"THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS WITHIN YOU."
Notes of a Sermon Delivered by SAMUEL TUKE, ca. 1848.
Memoirs of Samuel Tuke, With Notices of Some of His Ancestors and Descendants. London: Printed for Use of the Family Only, 1860, Vol. 2, pages 362-364.
This is The Quaker Homiletics Online Anthology, Part 3: The 19th Century.
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"The kingdom of heaven is within you." "The kingdom of heaven cometh not with observation." I have often been deeply instructed in remembering that passage,--"The kingdom of heaven is within you." We all know that the primary signification of these words, "The kingdom of heaven," is that blessed future state, in which there is no more pain, nor sorrow, nor sighing; for "all tears shall be wiped from off all faces;" that temple which needeth not the light of the sun by day, nor of the moon by night; for God himself is there, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 4:41:43 PM
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Thanks Katrine, but those are all personal interperetations of translations. Won't help me argue this with my Dad. Please see my EDIT's in the original post as translation is what I am arguing with my Dad not interpretation.
Love,
Carson |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 4:41:58 PM
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And here:
http://jtoddring.blogspot.com/2008/...hin-you.html
[quote]The Kingdom of Heaven is Within You
The Missing Scriptures: The Gospel of Thomas
It was from a reference by Joseph Campbell, whom I greatly admire, that I first heard of The Gospel of Thomas. Joseph Campbell's quotation from the lost scripture made me rush out to order the book immediately.
I guess I was fortunate, because it turned out to be Marvin Meyer's translation. It is wonderful.
I can't put words to what this gospel says to me. It rings true in accordance with the writings of sages the world over, East and West, as well as with the generally ignored passage in the New Testament: "The kingdom of heaven is within you."
It is not surprising that Emperor Constantine chose to crucify the Gospel of Thomas - worse, attempted to erase its memory by burning all copies he could find, and killing anyone who spoke of it - along with other scriptures he disliked: it leaves no need for a gatekeeper to heaven - neither emperor, as self-appointed ruler under God, nor church hierarchy - but only a direct communion with truth, through the wisdom of His words. Power seekers do not like to be left out of the loop.
The Gospel of Thomas is a revelation. Were it not for Emperor Constantine's self-anointed appropriation of the position of God's editor in the 4th century CE, we would have a very different, and expanded Bible. The Gospel of Thomas would certainly be one part of that more complete cannon. Only the most rigorously dogmatic can fail to recognize its authenticity.
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 4:49:22 PM
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Did you know of the gospel of Thomas, Carson? I didn't....
Or this "ignored" paragraph in the New testament....can you find it? |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 4:51:01 PM
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Here are copies of pieces of the emails between me and my father…..Hopefully some of you may have some advice for me….
…Inner silence is the key to it all. Pure unshakable inner silence. No attachment to anything, no negative outcome can shake me emotionally. I may feel an angry thought come up in my mind, but now I can watch it with grace float on by unheeded. Nothing is worth letting go of this peace for. Nothing. As Jesus said "Seek first the kingdom of heaven within, and all will be added to you."
The kingdom of heaven within is accessed via meditation, devotional service, and prayer/samyama. They may have different words in different religions but it all means the same thing. I hope one day you will come to realize this as the Truth as I have. I love you Dad.
Love,
Carson
I took some time to ponder your email. I had hoped you were beginning to see the Truth rather than fabricate your own version of truth. It has always annoyed me when people have twisted scripture to rationalize what they believe. Scripture has never endorsed your position. The correct version is as follows: Matthew 6: 32-34 “For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.”
“Within” is not what God intended for us to search first.
You can do this in your own power and I believe you can have limited success, but you will never know what it could really be under Gods plan.
Love Dad.
I have not been able to find evidence of the word "within" anywhere within the original translations or the original text.... |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 4:52:38 PM
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Hi Katrine.
I know of the Gospel of Thomas, but unfortunately for me it is not included in the current Bible so my father will not accept the book as the inspired word of God.
Love,
Carson |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 4:54:21 PM
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Luke 17:21 - Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
I'll try that
Love,
Carson |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 5:13:05 PM
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Carson,
Don't let anyone diminish your own experience.
Don't let anyone stop you from enjoying your inner preciousness.
It is very painful when the ones we love and respect rejects something that is preciously true in our own experience. And especially when it is fragile as it is until it manifests in greater and greater present love that noone can deterr you from. You do not need to believe in the rain when you are standing in it feeling it....this is how you will know (as you already do to an extent)
To conclude that you will never know God and at the same time being annoyed at peoples ignorance are your fathers interpretations of what takes place here. To each his own. It is not worth the fight, see? Let him see for himself where you are. Now and in the time to come. Let that be the judge of it, yes?
Although I am not your dad....I am very proud of you, Carson. You are amazing. Give your father the time he needs to trust that you have found a way to enjoy and expand in life.
We are all here to find out for ourselves, right?
What more can I say.....other than encourage you to listen inwards.
Stay in heart.
Truth and love resides here.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 5:20:26 PM
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Thanks Katrine,
I'm just sad for my Dad. I'm sad that he can't appreciate what I am becoming. Especially since what I am achieving is something he holds most dear, union with God. I'm just not acheiving it the only way he thinks it is possible. I am not upset, I am not angry, and I am not frustrated...I am just sad that I don't have him at my side cheering me on, and in fact have him doing the opposite. He, and most of the Christian faith in my opinion are so misguided, and Christ was so misrepresented it just saddens me. I will get over it though. Turn my sadness towards God and let him use it for good right?
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Oct 28 2008 5:25:01 PM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 5:27:25 PM
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Hi Carson:
It is a debate that has been going on among Christians for a long time. There are many quotes that can be dug up to support either argument. Just Google "kingdom of heaven within." I'd prefer to avoid the academic debate (the mincing of words), because direct experience is what matters to me.
In other words, the best way to find out where the kingdom of heaven is is to go there. Then we know where it is. Of course, that too can be debated endlessly. It is a question of what one prefers, heaven here and now, or heaven far removed and much later. I will take it here and now, thank you very much. That is putting an experience before the idea of an experience, which is more fulfilling. 
Did Jesus actually say it? Since the scriptures were written years after his death, it is hard to say. And not all those writings ended up in the New Testament. Did you check the original Greek? The Roman Church (and all churches since) have edited to suit their purposes. Regardless, what we know about the life of Jesus exemplifies the kingdom of heaven being within him, and within all of us, not to mention what is found in all of the world's religions. There is only one truth about human spiritual potentiality. We are confirming that in modern times.
Someone who does not think the kingdom of heaven is within will gain the same benefits from deep meditation as anyone else. We don't have to call it the kingdom of heaven within, and it will be what it is anyway -- how about "inner silence?" If the kingdom of heaven turns out to be somewhere else, we will be much better able to find it with deep meditation and the infinite expansion of abiding inner silence.
Btw, how does your father read the saying from the Psalm: "Be still and know that I am God."?
Never mind! 
The guru is in you.
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 5:30:38 PM
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Hi Carson
Yes...I understand
quote:
Turn my sadness towards God and let him use it for good right?
The way I see it....the sadness already is God expressing.
Yes....accept it so it can release itself......so there is space for whatever comes next
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 5:41:04 PM
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Hi Yogani,
Yes I understand that this is a bit of an unwinnable arguement from either side, but that is not how my father sees it. There is only 1 Truth in his perspective, and that Truth has no space for yoga. I sent him an entire email filled with verses such as the Psalm you quoted, but have yet to hear back, and I probably won't. He (and my entire family, mother, siblings, grandparents everyone) are all of the opinion that Fundamentalist Evangelical Christianity is the only true religion and that it must be preached, ministered, and declared from every rooftop as the only salvation for humanity. I can state volumes of evidence for translation differences, scholarly reports, Wiki this and that, but none of it will shake their faith. That all part of the Fundamentalist Evangelical Christian movement....Blind faith. No questioning allowed. That's why I left the church. That isn't right. Question everything...twice. These are people that modern science does not phase...people that will outright argue that the world is 6,000 years old at THE MOST! How can you reason with people like this....I know....You can't. But this is my FAMILY and I have to try. I just have to try to not let it get to me. But I really think you should change that quote in the lessons as there is no founding for the use of the word "within". Even in the original Greek. (Which was translated from Hebrew which I posted in the original posting) Use Luke 17:21 (KJV or NIV). Many of the other translations use "among us" instead of within and there is good cause for debate there as well, but at least the KJV and the NIV use the word "within"
Love,
Carson |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 5:53:08 PM
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Hi Carson:
The best argument you can make is to go on living your life the best you can, walking ahead in your own truth.
It is a bit late to change that quote, since it is in the AYP books also. Well, I am in good company. Many Christians have heard the words (seen the life) of Jesus that way. That is what I heard as a small lad in Sunday school, even if it was never said (it may have been). Some can see that word, "within," and some can't. It will be on the test at the end of the class.
The guru is in you.
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 6:08:24 PM
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PS: Ironically, the most "fundamental" thing about Christianity is that elusive word and idea, "within." It conveys the essence of all spirituality.
If I were to write a one word scripture, it would say: "Within."
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 6:12:35 PM
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Hi Yogani,
I know what you say is true. But they know what they say as true also. I know from personal experience that what you and I are saying is true, but that doesn't really help me win any arguements. I know all I can do is go on living as an example of what I am saying, and I am ( I have a job interview on Thursday morning for an Addictions Counsellor position at the Drop In and Rehab Centre, and that was actually the reason I started writing my Dad) but my family sees this as me trying to "do it all on my own" since I don't swear to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of my sorry ass. I have a desire to have my family appreciate the Truth I can see and have experienced, but they refuse to see it as such. I know you don't think that the arguement is winnable, but from a dialectic point of view there is NO arguement that is unwinnable. If we keep arguing rational arguements against the other's point of view an answer of comprimise MUST be at the end, right?
Love,
Carson |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 6:25:04 PM
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quote:
If we keep arguing rational arguements against the other's point of view an answer of comprimise MUST be at the end, right?
Time is so short though......it is a precious opportunity...life is
Are you sure you are willing to settle for compromises?
Sorry for opening my big mouth, Carson
I do understand how tempting it is......to try and convince them.
But better just be what you are. Truth will touch them through you.
Who knows what will happen to them because of your awakening. You never know the wonders of it.
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 6:30:14 PM
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Hi Carson:
Why compromise later when you can compromise now? You can live your life as you choose, and the rest of your family can live their lives as they choose. There is nothing wrong with a little tolerance. Who knows? If you become more tolerant of them, it might even rub off on those in the family who are prone to judge you. Which is not to say you are responsible for the choices they make in their lives, about you or anything else. You are only responsible for your own choices.
Life really can be that simple and free.
The guru is in you.
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Suryakant
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 6:43:33 PM
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| Some choose to believe that there is an omnipotent entity that allows those who do not satisfy it to be subjected to unending torture, and they choose to believe that the only way to satisfy that omnipotent entity is to convince it that they are terrified of its wrath. Peace be with them. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 7:32:34 PM
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Time is short and that is part of the problem Katrine. And you don't have a big mouth I'm sure...Time is short so my family is constantly pressuring me to "come back to Christ" and that is why these discussions happen. I am tolerant of their beliefs to an extent, but when they start infringing on me then I have issue with it. I'm tired of constantly being "witnessed" to. My grandfather recently told me I was going to go to hell for preaching heresy/blasphemy (can't remember the exact word he used) to the homeless and addicts. He personally goes to a prison weekly to spread "God's word". I want to let it go, but it keeps coming back for more.
Love,
Carson |
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 8:15:16 PM
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Carson,
Perhaps not just hermeneutical issues are working here, but unresolved control issues within the family.
When Jesus predicted that he would fracture families, he knew all about "true believers."
You might consider expressing happiness that your father and other orthodox Christians in the family have been successful in proving out what works for them in their own lives.
The approach may prompt them to think again about their own situations. They may question whether they have in fact "arrived" at satisfactory spiritual solutions to their own lives. And they may be brought around, most likely for the first time ever, to curiosity about what seems to be working for you.
Evangelizing for yoga, however you go about it, need not follow their style with its emphasis on doctrine and text proofing.
A patient man is a strong man. Belief in reincarnation could make you a more patient man. If you have seen a path to truth in this life, then in this life or later in another they will too.
This means you can afford to just wait things out with a clear conscience. Also, you have no responsibility for saving anyone. You offer your experience in love free of demand or expectations of them.
Avoiding persuasive efforts entirely while enjoying life confidently may constitute an effective sales pitch.
newpov |
Edited by - newpov on Oct 28 2008 10:07:32 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 10:21:54 PM
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Hi Brian,
Thank you for your kind message and thoughtful suggestions. My biggest problem is that I am constantly assaulted by my family now that I am showing signs of spiritual progression (especially now that I am clean off methadone) to become a Christian (by their definition) again. How can I convince them that I am as Christian as they are if not more? I'm not trying to convert them to yoga, I'm trying to get them to understand I'm just as well off with yoga as with their version of Christianity.
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Oct 28 2008 11:17:56 PM |
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 11:46:56 PM
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Carson,
So they see you as the stray, eh?
Why are you trying so hard to adjust their opinion of you?
Why is it important for you to establish that your credential of membership in their herd remains in good standing?
Why are you trying to get them to "understand" anything?
Perhaps you are experiencing an unconscious conflict that is normal to everyone situating himself in a new marriage.
You want to separate from old ways of relating to your family that may have been appropriate in your earlier years, yet perhaps you still crave validation or acceptance. Perhaps that is why you are hanging on to this issue?
newpov
PS:
Bible.com provides a number of translations, plus a search engine. |
Edited by - newpov on Oct 29 2008 10:31:25 AM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 11:52:08 PM
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Hi Carson:
We can be tolerant of a noisy neighbor, but if they knock our door down and try to overrun us, we must throw them out ... at least until they develop better manners.
The rose is lovely, but it also has thorns.
The guru is in you.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2008 : 10:56:15 AM
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Hi Brian,
quote:
Originally posted by newpov
So they see you as the stray, eh?
Yes for sure. I grew up very Christian...I was a hockey player as a child, and did not play on Sunday's because I went to church instead, did youth group on Friday's and Bible study on Wednesdays, the full meal deal. I bought into it hook line and sinker. I was "witnessing" to my friends at school which caused me some severe social trauma and was creating issues with teachers over secular teachings. But around the age of 12 I started smoking weed and seeing things in a new light. The next 3 years were total hell on my family as I tested every belief they (and I) held dear. By the age of 15 I was no longer able to stand living there and got a job and moved out. I eventually got a travelling job and finished my high school by corrospondence. I did not have any communication with my family until about the age of 22.(and by that time I was already hooked on heroin and other things) So I guess that is the long way of me saying, yes...I'm the stray of the family to say the least. Black sheep is more accurate I think.
quote:
Originally posted by newpov
Why are you trying so hard to adjust their opinion of you?
Why is it important for you to establish that your credential of membership in their herd remains in good standing?
Why are you trying to get them to "understand" anything?
Guess I'm being needlessly provocative, but lookit -- you have a new wife. You are also in process of separation. Why then do you hang on so?
I wasn't and am not trying to adjust their opinions of me, and there is no way I will be looked upon in "good standing" unless I convert so I'm not trying to do that either. The reason this conversation came up was because my father told me that he thought I sounded like a "vessel with the lid blown off" and that he believed what I was experiencing was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit just like in Acts Chapter 2 on the day of Pentecost. I replied with a ramble something like ....."Now you got it. A vessel in which the lid has just blown off. This is not news to me though. Christians call it the Holy Spirit, Japanese Zen call it "Ki", Chinese Buddhists call it "chi", the Balinese call it "Tasku", the Kalahari call it "n/um", (their Holy men describe it as a snakelike power that ascends the spine and blows a hole in the head through which the Gods then enter) Islamic Sufi's call it "The Beloved", and the one I best know it as, is from the Hindu's/Yogi's and that is called "kundalini shakti". I hope you are starting to see the similarities between all religions....They are all just different cultural perspectives on the same concepts..."
This is what sparked the arguement and consequent "battle to save my soul" as they might call it. And I'm not "hanging on so...". This is my FAMILY...and not just my immediate family...my whole extended family which is quite extensive....(AND my wife's family too I guess as they are Mormon, but they are easy for me to out argue so that's not a big issue.) and for the first time since I was 15 do I have even a slight desire to communicate in depth with them. Should I really deny myself or perhaps even the divine desire within, the opportunity for connection? I would love to come to a common understanding about yoga with my family so that there can be peace once again. For a few years while I was on the methadone program and just "floating" things were fine. They didn't press me and I didn't press them. But NOW, I'm off drugs, following a completely spiritual trajectory with my entire life and it's like I'm drawing them to me like a magnet. They see this as an opportunity from Jesus to "save" me again. It's like it's their mission. Not the other way around. I'm not trying to save them. I just want peace. I don't even live within 150km of my family and I can't find any peace because of the constant harrassment. Which brings me to....Yogani...
quote:
Originally posted by Yogani
We can be tolerant of a noisy neighbor, but if they knock our door down and try to overrun us, we must throw them out ... at least until they develop better manners.
I wish it was that simple. What am I going to do? Call the cops and say "My family is insistantly trying to convert me, make them stop?" I can stop replying to emails and stop answering their phone calls, but isn't that petty and immature? It won't stop the emails or phone calls from coming I assure you. It may in fact intensify it some I don't know. They may start coming to my HOUSE to bother me and that is the LAST thing I want. I hope you understand that I am not hopeless over this or anything, I'm more just venting I guess. I know I need to just let go of this as well, but with family it's harder. Especially with the history I have with them. I want peace with them again. And with my projected life trajectory that doesn't seem likely any time soon. Sorry for ranting, really I am.
Love,
Carson
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