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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 02 2008 : 10:16:07 AM
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Hi Anthem,
I have not read it for years... maybe someone else here knows of a good translation?
Christi |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Nov 02 2008 : 10:50:32 AM
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Hi Anthem
"Old Path White Clouds: Walking in the Footsteps of the Buddha" by Thich Nhat Nanh.
Have'nt read it yet but it's on my reading list. It is currently being used to make a film about the Buddha in Holywood. Thich Nhat Hanh and the Dali Lama are the advisers on it.
Currently reading "Buddha" by Depak Chopra, so far it's a good novel type read, he writes a good story with good insights.
I've heard a lot of good feedback about "Old Path White Cloud", so would not hesitate to recommend that one.
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Nov 02 2008 : 2:48:49 PM
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| Thanks Louis, will order it. |
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x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Nov 02 2008 : 4:55:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Hi Christi
I don't know what it will be like for us. But the "not an end state" is very appealing.....it is free flowing....like life......and indicates that there will always be development and integration. I love that......it resonates.
I just watched Moji He is for the ripe, though. I agree completely. But sometimes.....ripeness comes when you least expect it. Some fruits ripen quicker too. And today....many are ripe already.....and those who are not, will hopefully find other teachers.
Hi folks,
Katrine, your first paragraph I agree with. "It's not an end state."
Your second paragraph above, I believe indicates that if a person does not resonate with a teacher like Moji, then they may not be "ripe" enough yet to resonate with him. But there is yet another subgroup of people also, who do not resonate with Moji and Adyashanti.
That other subgroup, are those who used to yearn for enlightenment when they began on this quest, but fortunately for them, through some Grace, have advanced in transformation enough to no longer be interested in the subject nor actively seeking nor craving enlightenment. Because, to long for enlightened, is yet another form of attachment and craving. And suffering. And that karma needs to be burned off. Seek nothing in other words. I ascribe to the latter group. This is a transformed condition of mind beyond the grasping of enlightenment, beyond the craving for the ecstasy of it. Beyond the consideration of it. Bored by it. Disbeliever in it in a sense.
That's all I am suggesting. And for such a person, talk of the ecstasy of that moving target called enlightenment and the puzzling over it, seems something they remember from their past, and that seems, a bit on the naive side. But that's just one yogi's opinion.
x.j. |
Edited by - x.j. on Nov 02 2008 6:05:03 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2008 : 02:00:49 AM
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quote:
Hi Christi
I don't know what it will be like for us. But the "not an end state" is very appealing.....it is free flowing....like life......
Hi Katrine,
Yes. It is interesting to see that none of the people in the videos I linked to talk about enlightenment as being an end state. And yet we so often think of it in that way. In fact, in one of Adyashanti's books (Emptiness Dancing) he specifically says that he experienced "final enlightenment" (the culmination of a series of enlightenments), but that even then he realized this was not the end of his journey.
quote:
It was more the nature of the question...."what to do?"....it indicates that the answer is not ready until it is.
I love that line. It is a bit like a zen Koan. I am sure you could get enlightened just trying to work out what it means.
quote:
Integration........ 6 weeks for Buddha.....to integrate his primal enlightenment......gosh.....that is so little time.....to assimilate the vastness of it......
Oh... it wasn't his first time. It was the fourth time that he had become enlightened (in different incarnations). He was a bit of an old hand so to speak.
quote:
I just watched Moji..................thank you, Christi, that was great! I find't him very straight forward, honest, ordinary...and most of all: Calm and alert. See the way he looks at you......he urges you to understand.....he wants nothing else but liberate you from the identification with mind. I also heard him say that "sometimes I wonder....is there a point...am I getting through to you" (or somthing to that extent) I don't find him pompous at all. I sense his warm heart and his eyes shines with love. I would love to meet him too.
Yes, he is a real Gem. If you get the chance to meet him, take it.
quote:
Advaita is great in addition to AYP.
Advaita is part of AYP. It is covered in Yogani's book on Jnyana yoga:
http://www.aypsite.org/books.html#si
A fantastic book if you have not read it already.
Christi |
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2008 : 04:12:56 AM
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tubeseeker
Your post is great! nothing can be better than the true !Ha Ha Ha
greetings swami yabbadaha.......
Neli
quote:
Originally posted by tubeseeker
enlightenment means you get to sit in very nice chairs, wear very nice clothes, have big ashrams built in your name, have people kiss your feet, charge $600 for a two day retreat, and you also get a big fancy name like babbishricahpamecjajrjeja biehea cheakjkdklb. THen you get to name others, teach them how to heal, how to conduct weekend retreats, teach them how to market, etc... OR MAYBE, enlightemnt means you realize that God does not cost $6.2 quatrillion dollars and that the books should sell for a reasonable price without anyone worshipping your picture, if you choose to write books at all. Or maybe enlightenment is me realizing how judgemental i have been and how judgmental this post is that i am making. or maybe when i am farting i will realize, 'i am here, the time is now, and i am farting, this fart may leave this space but we will always be connected for it is always the part of i am, because i am that, and that is me, even if i am a stinky fart"
Non enlightenment, If I punch you in the eye you may ask "why did you do that" this would be living in the past
enlightenment= I punch you in the eye and you say "my eye feels sore" in this case you are living in the now.
SO
Next time you see someone living in tha past or future, punch them in the eye, then they will become present, if only for a moment. But be careful when trying this technique for they may decide to make you feel the presence of being present as well. Actually dont be careful, because by doing so you are thinking of the future. So go out and put people in the present, you will be an elightened being for it. SO now that I have told you what is enlightenment, next question?
see now you have failed again, you where thinking of the next quesiton werent you. That is not being present, because present has no questions
we are that
signed, Swami yabbadhaboashrieabeoafheoanveuaodvahndandfoburoeugpahlfluguileutoiw hgljboieuthelk
p.s. if you do decide you must ask a next question, I ecpect you to call me by name,if you cannot pronounce it i will not answer your quesiton
*lawyers note, above poster, tubeseeker, or bettter NOW, because here and now is what we are, so he is NOW known as Swami yabbadhaboashrieabeoafheoanveuaodvahndandfoburoeugpahlfluguile u toiwhgljboieuthelk was joking in the above post about punching peaple in the eye and should be replaced by a purple nurple (also known as titty twister) for males, or a "Look, I got your nose" to females, and only if you know those people well enough that no criminal action would ensue partaking in such event. Also should be noted that he is in a rmabling mood after having an iced Chai soy latte, which may inhibit his silence or inner purifaction, however he will stick to the practice and do his second of twice daily sitting routines in about an hour or so. He has witnessed what the Chai soy latte does and while it tastes really good he chooses not to partake in these a whole lot, because while they are not good or bad, because that would be living in duality and when the veil is lifted we are all united/nonduality. even though the chai soy latte he actually prefers grapes. To the enlgihtened masters, he does not mean to make light of enlightenment, but then enlightenment does have light in it and that is what he is trying to express. He loves the true gurus, and all the world is a guru if seen clearly. He still claims to be love, peace and joy, even if he has had too many chai soy lattes (which for him is one) it is just now that he is acting childish and taking litterally the quote, "come to god as a child" so he hopes god is laughing, cause god is laughter right? His witness is still here, he is just witnessing a state of caffeine/sugar buzz. after cleansing his system by doing multiple pracices, including drinking pee as recomended by the one and only Mr. Yogani, the caffeine and sugar seem to have a little extra kick. If anyone is confused, ask brothe carson to sort it out.
thank you and I appreciate you understanding that swami yabbadhaboashrieabeoafheoanveuaodvahndandfoburoeugpahlfluguileutoiwhgljboieuthelk will not be available after the show, i mean lecture, but you can put donations in the Golden vault.
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2008 : 04:26:23 AM
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Hi Christi
quote:
Advaita is part of AYP. It is covered in Yogani's book on Jnyana yoga:
http://www.aypsite.org/books.html#si
A fantastic book if you have not read it already.
Yes. I have read it. I love it too
Self-Inquiry is great - it is my favorite practise (as you may know by now ).
Have you met Moji?
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2008 : 08:05:43 AM
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Hi Katrine,
quote:
Have you met Moji?
Not in this lifetime, but I'm sure I have crossed paths with him at some point. I hope to meet him in January.
This is one of my favorite videos of Mooji in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U72lwOTIC5o
He really makes it clear what the "witness" means. I don't know if he uses that term, I think he says "awareness" for "witness".
Christi |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2008 : 10:13:16 AM
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x.j., I have to say that I understand where you are coming from and I believe there is a lot of truth to what you are saying here.
The common intellectual sense of 'enlightened' is flawed.
Anyone who is up on a pedestal wants to be up on a pedestal. No exceptions, and don't anyone ever forget it.
People's sense of enlightenment is flawed, and teacher's who want to be on pedestals trade on this misunderstanding, and on semantic problems.
quote:
Originally posted by x.j.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Imagine you are enlightened... you are living in a permanent state of euphoria, and your heart is overflowing with joy and love. The world appears to you as a dance of divine light and as paradise.
Mooji on the other hand only teaches pure advaita. It is a method of teaching suitable for people who are just about to wake up... when their heart is so pure, that simply a glance, or a word spoken by their teacher is enough to bring them into the kingdom of heaven.
Christi
Dear Christi,
I am a simple minded and practical man. And my contemplative practices have honed intuition. Third Eye, if you will. And watching the videos of these new age gurus, these guys, don't excite me, don't resonate with me, theres no thrill at all for me in listening to them. I keep thinking to myself as I watch each of them, that they are patronizing and condescending sounding. They appear just as any normal acquaintance on the street to me. So to me, they are ordinary. I don't revere them or feel they are special in any way at all. They seem pompous.
But your words Christi, here on the forums, do resonate with me. And Yogani's system does resonate with me. I don't care much for the cliche called enlightenment. It's hackneyed and obsolete speaking only for myself.It's a cliche that makes one feel inadequate and mediocre. It's a put down.
Let's talk transformation and evolution. That's where we are headed. And the tools we will find very useful, are right here in the lessons. But these guys you think are so charming, as enlightened beings, are just regular ordinary guys Christi. Guys that think they're special. That's what I see here. I just think you are fooling yourself on that score. That's based on intuition. You don't need them for anything. You don't need to give them money to buy their books or attend their seminars. Just keep up all that you are doing already. That is all any of us needs to do. But life is too short to yearn for enlightenment. To hell with that. Just sit on your cushion and thank your lucky stars that you are alive, and that we are together for a little time, to help one another.
I hope I make this clear, for the record.
in service,
x.j.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2008 : 10:18:44 AM
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Christi said:
In fact, in one of Adyashanti's books (Emptiness Dancing) he specifically says that he experienced "final enlightenment" (the culmination of a series of enlightenments), but that even then he realized this was not the end of his journey.
Did he decisively correct his earlier claims that he experienced 'final enlightenment'? I mean, he's not still leaving people laboring under the delusion that Adyashanti has experienced final enlightenment?
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2008 : 11:23:02 AM
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quote:
Anyone who is up on a pedestal wants to be up on a pedestal.
Perhaps his followers want him up there, as well. Why is this?
Lack of confidence in ones ability to live and progress in ones own life dates to birth. This is a shame. Few overcome this early damage.
Damaged people elevate lucky men and women to avatar status. It is a projection of hope onto others.
Avatars, if they are genuine, actually got there by grace, nothing else. Method or technique did not take them "the whole way," whatever that might mean.
I believe x.j. would go along with my opinion?
newpov |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2008 : 12:52:25 PM
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David,
Quick question for you....In your opinion are ALL teachers automatically put on a pedestal simply because the are "teaching"? I think what really matters is if the teacher puts HIMSELF on a pedestal. Which is why Yogani's teachings resonate so deeply with me. He definitely doesn't put himself on a pedestal. A teacher can't stop others from thinking what they will about him/her, and if that teacher has been "called" to be a teacher do you really think that they should deny that calling for fear of others putting them on a pedestal and having the message be polluted by that? Adyashanti and the other's being talked about here, may have been placed on a pedestal by others who connect deeply with their teachings, but I think you would have a hard time finding evidence to support the idea that these people themselves think they are "higher" (on a pedestal) then other's who may not have acheived "final enlightenment". Would you disagree?
Love,
Carson |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2008 : 1:03:23 PM
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Perhaps his followers want him up there, as well. Why is this? Lack of confidence in ones ability to live and progress in ones own life dates to birth. This is a shame. Few overcome this early damage. Damaged people elevate lucky men and women to avatar status. It is a projection of hope onto others.
Hello Newpov,
A desire to elevate either oneself or other people beyond the bounds of reality is a deeply ingrained human condition. The underlying condition has been called 'narcissistic wounding'.
The teenage kid who is feeling inadequate and unpopular because (to over-simplify, and roll everything into one) 'he can't play football', feels the need to dream his healing.... But doesn't so much spend his time dreaming that he can play an ordinary decent game of football in highschool with very human teenage muscles, rather he 'overcompensates' and dreams that he is a superhero -- with muscles of steel and the power to fly....
And so Marvel Comics are born. Superman, Batman, these are what the kid both wants to be and fantasizes that he is or is becoming. And there's a whole market there waiting for him....
And so the Siddha Tradition is born. Babaji and other miracle-working 'Yogi-Christs' of India, these are what the kid both wants to be and fantasizes that he is or is becoming. And there's a whole market there waiting for him....
If people are narcissistically wounded, they are drawn, to an extent, to the explanations of reality that pander to those wounds rather than heal them. They are drawn to teachers and organizations and traditions which have the same wounds and weaknesses.
The truth is that there is no healing whatsoever in these fantasies. Probably, quite the opposite. They are not Spirituality, they are not Truth. They are not Giving. They are not Love. They are not Sacrifice. They are not Courage. They are not Humility. They are not Freedom. They are not Surrender. They are obsession, Castles in the Air, inflation, self-focus, self-delusion and self-indulgence. They are sugar to the chronic spiritual diabetes of self-importance.
I understand that this might sound harsh. But it is reality, and will be learned in time by those who fantasize that they are on the way to becoming 'the Christ' on their road to 'enlightenment'.
I am not saying that everyone who merely believes in the Siddha Tradition is doing it for the reasons I'm explaining. But I am landing on the big 'hook' of the Siddha Tradition, and exposing a big part of what is really going on with all this Yoga and Enlightenment Circus thang. And on those who fantasize that they are on the way to becoming 'the Christ', or that others are already literally there, with all magic powers and perfections attendant.
This isn't to say that I don't believe in 'enlightenment' or its value. Far from it. There is a spiritual reality there, there is a deep transformation possible. But free of the fantasy that one is becoming 'the Christ', one is better grounded for spiritual growth. A proper (non-inflated) understanding of what enlightenment is, is protective. But while protective, it is less 'tempting' than the less healthy reality.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Nov 03 2008 5:19:48 PM |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2008 : 1:24:58 PM
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How many people here see the spiritual eye in meditation? If you don't see it i don't understand how you can claim to be enlightened.
Enlightenment is a joke IMO. Nobody seems to know what enlightenment actually is. Hence all the different opinions. How can somebody know that another person is enlightened? Would it be by telepathy? What is the mechanism for recognising a person is enlightened? It sounds to me that people want to believe that some teacher is enlightened just because the teacher says they are. And IMO that is smellier than dirty socks on a bed of roquefort cheese up near a sulphorous mountain. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2008 : 2:10:11 PM
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Enlightenment is a concept that cannot properly be put into words. And I think (because I am not enlightened) that only once one actually DOES become "enlightened" can one truly say from experience that enlightenment is not the end. I don't think anyone here is saying that enlightenment is the end all be all, and once you reach it you are "Christ" or "like Christ" or whatever, but if we have nothing to strive for why are we here doing practices? You can call it enlightenment, you can call it spiritual evolution, you can call it the human spiritual transformation, you can call it "the journey", who cares? We all know that we are here for a reason, that reason is to get further down the path of spiritual unfoldment and that's it. There's no end. It's a journey. Some might reach what other's may call enlightenment, but those that have reached that stage will never say they have reached the end. So to argue about this is pointless in my opinion. But again, I'm not enlightened so what do I know.
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Nov 03 2008 3:27:53 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2008 : 5:02:40 PM
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Hello Carson,
no, teachers are not automatically put on a pedestal at all. Generally when they are on a pedestal, they are complicit in getting themselves up there!
He definitely doesn't put himself on a pedestal. A teacher can't stop others from thinking what they will about him/her, and if that teacher has been "called" to be a teacher do you really think that they should deny that calling for fear of others putting them on a pedestal and having the message be polluted by that?
Actually, teachers are pretty effective at stopping others from having an inflated view of them, and Yogani is probably a good example right now on that score. Yogani isn't up on a pedestal because he doesn't want to be. End of story. Really, it all begins and ends there, despite the prevailing myths. If some day he wakes up and starts to (unconsciously) feel he wants to be on a pedestal, then Presto! A pedestal will appear underneath him very quickly.
The teacher who is up on a pedestal despite all their genuine efforts not to be, is largely a myth. The reality is usually quite different. More typically, their 'efforts' not to be up on the pedestal are weak, for show, and intentionally self-saboutaging. And/or they make some genuine efforts not to be on the pedestal, while they make many other, much stronger efforts, to cultivate the pedestal. They are up on the pedestal because they like it, and all these unconscious pedestal-building behaviors follow.
Another contributory phenomenon is that they are simply hugely inflated, while they may genuinely disbelieve in pedestals in general and in principal, for everyone else . Their inflated self-mythology rubs off on their listeners, who buy it. In the presence of someone who has a genuine, though inflated, self-mythology, and thinks he is God, or more literally, The World Teacher, for example, many are apt to suck the notion up subliminally. He talks like The World Teacher! He walks like The World Teacher! He stares into infinity like The World Teacher! So he must be The World Teacher! While being even genuinely opposed to pedestals in general, those ones are up on a Pedestal because they believe it isn't a Pedestal when their ass is on it, it's just a chair big enough to hold their inflated ass.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
David,
Quick question for you....In your opinion are ALL teachers automatically put on a pedestal simply because the are "teaching"? I think what really matters is if the teacher puts HIMSELF on a pedestal. Which is why Yogani's teachings resonate so deeply with me. He definitely doesn't put himself on a pedestal. A teacher can't stop others from thinking what they will about him/her, and if that teacher has been "called" to be a teacher do you really think that they should deny that calling for fear of others putting them on a pedestal and having the message be polluted by that? Adyashanti and the other's being talked about here, may have been placed on a pedestal by others who connect deeply with their teachings, but I think you would have a hard time finding evidence to support the idea that these people themselves think they are "higher" (on a pedestal) then other's who may not have acheived "final enlightenment". Would you disagree?
Love,
Carson
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Nov 03 2008 5:35:53 PM |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2008 : 7:35:34 PM
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quote:
david: Their inflated self-mythology rubs off on their listeners, who buy it. In the presence of someone who has a genuine, though inflated, self-mythology, and thinks he is God, or more literally, The World Teacher, for example, many are apt to suck the notion up subliminally. He talks like The World Teacher! He walks like The World Teacher! He stares into infinity like The World Teacher! So he must be The World Teacher! While being even genuinely opposed to pedestals in general, those ones are up on a Pedestal because they believe it isn't a Pedestal when their ass is on it, it's just a chair big enough to hold their inflated ass.
LOL:
I guess an enlightened person can be someone who is balanced, down to earth, caring, with a good amount of common sense, etc. But I don't think there is a world teacher today. The only thing I've seen are deluded individuals with photoshopped images of glowing eyes, lights shooting out of their heads and hands, etc., and other theatrics to convince people that they are godmen or godwomen.
And if they don't do that they simply just state that they are the next messiah or something along these lines, but it's easy to see that this isn't the case - since they lack the power that comes along with this, such as; being able to truly heal people, seeing into the future, raising the dead or things that an ordinary person is incapable of doing. And even if it's not along these lines, or as overt, then it should be a completely new teaching or practice to bring others to a higher state of evolution, like the Buddha, for example, who also practiced what he preached.
So the first example of enlightenment I think people have experienced, but the other example of a true world teacher I'm yet to see. Since a true world teacher would be totally independent of other people's learning, past spiritual teachings, and would bring something completely new to uplift mankind globally.
Anyway, that's the way that I look at it and I hope that some day this will happen, since I am kind of disgusted by these people who regurgitate past teachings to serve their own ends - whether this is manifested by greed, power, or any other self-serving agenda.
Take care:
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Nov 03 2008 7:46:38 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2008 : 03:03:51 AM
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Hi David,
quote:
Did he decisively correct his earlier claims that he experienced 'final enlightenment'? I mean, he's not still leaving people laboring under the delusion that Adyashanti has experienced final enlightenment?
No he didn't correct his earlier claim, and no he isn't leaving anyone deluded. He said that he experienced "final enlightenment" in the sense that he reached a stage beyond which there was simply no more seeking. It was final in that sense, and he is happy to call it that. He explains quite clearly that that is what he means when he uses the term. But he goes on to explain that there is still progression on the path even after that point is reached. So there is no need for him to correct anything, because nothing was mistaken, and nobody is left in a state of delusion, at least as far as understanding where he is at is concerned.
But I do think it is an unfortunate use of semantics, leaving much room for confusion in the casual listener. I think he would do well to find another term which is less potentially confusing. Unfortunately it is in printed form now (in his Emptiness Dancing book).
Christi |
Edited by - Christi on Nov 04 2008 04:49:24 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2008 : 04:12:31 AM
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Hi all,
quote:
Carson wrote:
Enlightenment is a concept that cannot properly be put into words.
Actually, one of the reasons I posted the video links above is because I thought these guys were doing a pretty good job of putting enlightenment into words . And in fact there is a surprising amount of consensus reached in the videos. These people come from different parts of the world, and yet they are all talking about the same thing, a direct experience of the human condition during advanced stages of spiritual transformation.
Mooji comes from London, Adyashanti from California, and the other two come from India, yet they are all talking about something which can be attained by all humans, everywhere.
As I see it, two different levels of enlightenment are discussed, Adyashanti, Mooji and Kalki Bhagavan are talking about the transcendence of the limited sense of self (Moksha) and Siva Baba is talking about a higher stage of transformation where the human body is transformed into light (referred to as the diamond body in some Tantric texts).
One of the interesting things about these videos is that the people in them are simply talking about that state of human consciousness that transcends suffering, from their direct perception of it. There is nothing to suggest that they are engaged in an act of artificially elevating their own experience in any way, or that anyone else around them is doing that.
Enlightenment is an aspect of yoga, referred to as moksha, or nirvanna in Sanskrit, and is part of AYP discussed here:
http://www.aypsite.org/35.html
Interestingly, both Adyashanti and Yogani both talk about silence, bliss, ecstasy and love in terms of enlightenment. Adyashanti is one of the few Buddhist teachers who uses all those terms so freely.
So rather than focusing on the teacher (whichever one it is) and their own potentially imaginary sacro-mythalogical tendencies and those of their disciples, I find it much more interesting, and enlightening to focus on what is being taught. It helps me to understand where I am heading in all of this, and where we are all heading.
Kalki Bhagavan talks about the detachment of the senses from the ego, which is another way of describing what Adyashanti is talking about when he says that enlightenment is the unaltered state of consciousness. Mooji talks about staying present in the awareness which is beyond the sense of the "I", which is another way of saying the same thing, the "I" being the ego.
Yogani uses a different definition in the main AYP lessons:
"The ultimate destination is enlightenment. What is enlightenment?
A state of balanced union between our two natures: pure bliss
consciousness and our sensory involvement on this physical earth.
That is the definition of yoga, and the destination of all religion."
This is an interesting definition because it includes another element, not mentioned in any of the videos linked to above, this physical earth. All the other definitions could happily work for someone not on this earth but living in one of the heavens. Even Siva Baba's definition of the point of transformation into supernal light could work in the heavenly realms. But Yogani's definition implies a higher state of enlightenment, one which can only apply on this earth and which implies a connection (a union) between enlightened awareness (pure bliss consciousness) and physical reality.
So (as I see it) we are looking at three stages of enlightenment here (there may well be more). Firstly the stabilizing of the self in pure bliss consciousness (awareness) and the simultaneous transcendence of the ego, secondly the transformation of the body into divine light, and thirdly the union of higher consciousness with the physical manifestation.
Christi
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2008 : 07:48:29 AM
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Hi Christi
quote:
So rather than focusing on the teacher (whichever one it is) and their own potentially imaginary sacro-mythalogical tendencies and those of their disciples, I find it much more interesting, and enlightening to focus on what is being taught. It helps me to understand where I am heading in all of this, and where we are all heading.
Thank you for saying this.
It is so important!
I remember attending lots of seminars with foreign homeopaths years back and often wondering why some people always would focus mostly on what there was to complain about concerning the different homeopaths experiences and views. First to pay money to go to a seminar, and then spend your energy on what you didn't like with it...
Every one of those teachers contributed with certain assets that helped me at that time. There would always be at least some resonance....so I let that sink in and simply discarded the rest.
Of the videos you posted initially here, Siva Baba was the one that resonated the least with me - I didn't even watch the whole video - there was something about his face/eyes that was so "removed" from this physical plane of existence.....and I felt it to be somewhat cold and "hard" rather than warm (come to think of it..... these are qualities of a diamond :-).....so I just dropped watching. I am not able to read what he is.....other than the shiny diamond like cool and the immense "cleanliness" of his radiance....like a lazer. This I registered, the rest I discarded. I am not at such a level that I can understand him. I am simply not interested.
Adyashanti and Mooji on the other hand walk right into heart and stay here. I love Adyashantis books. Of the "two" presences, that of Mooji resonates the most. I have not read one word he has written (maybe he has written nothing?) - but his presence, what he says and the caring light shining from his eyes.....I recognize it as Heart. These are pretty strong words - but that is how it is perceived here. And God bless him for not being afraid of exposing himself!
I love Yoganis teaching who "brings" heaven down to earth, and earth rising up to meet heaven here in this physical existence
Within us all - and with the help of - this body. AYP is not for the few since what is is everywhere physically present.
And this means that we are able to enjoy ourselves right now. The Joy is made available for all....no matter where we are in the process. The Self is always shining through us.....noone is devoid of the light coming out of our eyes, and therefore noone is devoid of the ability to enjoy.
It is the practises in AYP (in my case deep meditation and self-inquiry....also long before AYP was a fact as such....and after AYP, adding Pranayama) that has made it possible for me to feel the deep connection with people like Mooji. How precious that is.....cannot be described properly. There are no words.
And God bless Yogani who managed to expose his teaching in this manner - freely available to so many.
Over the years....so many people has inspired me in the process towards coming to rest in myself. People on pedestals and people not on pedestals alike. And so many more people will continue to inspire......I would have understood so little without the inspiration from every one of them.
It is right to warn of "worshipping" the messenger instead of the message. But to discard the latter because the former does not live up to the "spritually correct standard"....is akin to .....what do you say in English......throwing the baby out with the bath water....(something to that extent ).
It is people like Yogani and Mooji (and many others) that are to be thanked for the widespread rise in the quantity of people turning within. Surely that will make up for whatever imbalance the live gurus will tail with them. After all - it is Self that is the inner guru of all. Life itself sets things right.
Thanks again, Christi, for always bringing the quality of Heart into view.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2008 : 11:13:44 AM
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Hi Christi,
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
quote:
Carson wrote:
Enlightenment is a concept that cannot properly be put into words.
Actually, one of the reasons I posted the video links above is because I thought these guys were doing a pretty good job of putting enlightenment into words . And in fact there is a surprising amount of consensus reached in the videos. These people come from different parts of the world, and yet they are all talking about the same thing, a direct experience of the human condition during advanced stages of spiritual transformation.
Yeah, like I said earlier in this thread, I don't have a computer I can watch youtube videos on so I haven't actually been able to watch any of the speeches by the folks you posted. I have read much of Adya and Bhagavan though so I am pretty familiar with both of their teachings and I find them to be very Adviata and non-practice based which I find unhelpful at this stage of the game for me. Adya's book True Meditation hit home for me personally more then Emptiness Dancing, but I'm sure in the future it will be the other way around. I'm sorry for coming across with an absolute....(saying that enlightenment CANNOT be put into words) I guess what I meant was enlightenment is very difficult to put into words and I doubt many unenlightened folks will agree on any one definition. Everyone has their own ideas about what enlightenment is to them, and most of us are not far enough along in our journey's to really get much out of the definitions given by Adya and others on the Advaita path. This is because their definitions all sound too easy. Like enlightenment is right there for each of us to grasp, right in front of our faces. And I realize it is, but for many of us being told it is that simple is just infuriating. Because if it's so easy, and it's right there, and I want it soooo badly, why can't I grab hold for more then a few minutes at a time? I'm not really complaining I hope you understand...I'm more playing devil's advocate here, as usual. All I'm really trying to say, is, yes, there may be a similar way of speaking about enlightenment and describing it amongst enlightened beings, but hearing those words and being able to REALLY understand them and put them into practice are two very different sides of the same equation.
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Nov 04 2008 11:17:50 AM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2008 : 11:16:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
I love Yoganis teaching who "brings" heaven down to earth, and earth rising up to meet heaven here in this physical existence
Within us all - and with the help of - this body. AYP is not for the few since what is is everywhere physically present.
And this means that we are able to enjoy ourselves right now. The Joy is made available for all....no matter where we are in the process. The Self is always shining through us.....noone is devoid of the light coming out of our eyes, and therefore noone is devoid of the ability to enjoy.
Thank you for putting it out there so beautifully, Katrine. This has just recently become very true in my experience.
In fact we can experience joy no matter what emotional state goes on in the emotional body. If we are fully open and surrendered, we can experience anything from the background of joy. If emotion is consciously felt the Consciousness grows and that's the bubbling joy. If emotion is unconsciously lived in a personalized way... Mother Earth will nourish and listen to our complaints or pains. So everything is good in all ways! |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2008 : 12:54:14 PM
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quote:
CarsonZi: Like enlightenment is right there for each of us to grasp, right in front of our faces. And I realize it is, but for many of us being told it is that simple is just infuriating. Because if it's so easy, and it's right there, and I want it soooo badly, why can't I grab hold for more then a few minutes at a time?
Most people dealing with reality can't. So I view this version of enlightenment as the positive thinking fad repackage for the supply and demand of a society primarily interested in instant results. And just about every spiritual teacher is tooting this philosophy, since it's what sells and they're making a bundle off of it. 'Forget about what past teachers said... forget about seeking... forget about meditation... forget about practices... just be in the now... it's so simple... so why can't you see it?!'
I know that's a pretty straightforward thing to say, but that's the way that I view the 'be in the nowers', who completely disregard proven spiritual teachings, practices, and place themselves above them.
And if it's not this philosophy, it's the teacher that manipulates past teachings to demean people, thereby enforcing unreasonable expectation of its followers, who dare question the viability of the teaching, the teacher, or the teacher's actions and words that constantly run at odds with one another.
So, anyway, I don't consider this as seeing the negative side of things, or complaining, as Katrine used the seminar analogy, but view this as seeing the current reality of the spiritual world today. And I'm thankful to people who speak out about teachers and don't pretend that what they say and do is okay if it conflicts with reality.
quote:
Christi: So rather than focusing on the teacher (whichever one it is) and their own potentially imaginary sacro-mythalogical tendencies and those of their disciples, I find it much more interesting, and enlightening to focus on what is being taught. It helps me to understand where I am heading in all of this, and where we are all heading.
The reason why people put focus on the teacher is because many teachers use their "enlightenment" as the platform for teaching. So it only makes sense that people would place focus on what these individuals say and do. Whereas yogani places focus on practice, by allowing people to discover who they are, without attracting undue attention to himself.
VIL
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2008 : 1:02:49 PM
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Christi said:
But I do think it is an unfortunate use of semantics, leaving much room for confusion in the casual listener. I think he would do well to find another term which is less potentially confusing. Unfortunately it is in printed form now (in his Emptiness Dancing book).
Yes, the semantics is unfortunate, but I am glad to hear that at least when the details are looked at, he isn't over-reaching.
I have been pleased with Adyashanti on other occasions, as he sometimes actively works to reduce the inflated 'popular' image of 'enlightenment'. A teacher with a priestcrafty agenda (whether personal or inherited unconsciously from culture) is very uninclined to do such a service to their students, as the inflated image serves the priestcraft.
I am very hopeful that there is a developing world culture in which the aspects of 'englightenment' are better understood. This better understanding conditions the soil for more solid spiritual development. I think that some people here at AYP are playing their part in bringing those changes about. Keep up the good work everyone!
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2008 : 1:18:03 PM
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Hi VIL,
quote:
Originally posted by VIL
[quote]Most people dealing with reality can't (grab hold of more then a few minutes of God at a time)
I'm sorry if this is a stupid and ignorant question, but I really can't seem to wrap my head around what you mean when you say "most people dealing with reality...." People NOT dealing with reality have an easier time? A FEW people dealing with reality can? Not sure exactly what you were implying with the sentence and would appreciate it greatly if you could clarify for me. Thanks and sorry I'm so dull witted.
Love,
Carson |
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What is enlightenment?
