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gentlep
USA
114 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 18 2008 : 11:11:06 PM
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| I find that the mind wanders less if the mantra is said loudly and if it is said rapidly vs slowly. Also the longer the mantra is the more the concentration required and hence less the mind wanders. If the mind wanders than it is recognized faster than it would be in silent meditation with mantra. So isn't it beneficial for beginners to do the mantra japa aloud and at faster pace than the silent meditation. |
Edited by - AYPforum on Sep 26 2008 08:32:12 AM |
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Sep 19 2008 : 02:10:52 AM
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Hi gentlep,
I use 3 mantras, the Gaiatri, the Om Shanti, and the I AM, the first I say it with the mind 3 times, the second I sing it out loud an many times till I feel the ecstasy or conductivity of the energy, and the I AM, I say it with voice like a comand, sometimes with the mind. Once it occurred to me to sing it faster to prove what happened, and the next day I was in hiperactivity, and I felt bad, never did it again.
Sat Nam
Neli
quote:
Originally posted by gentlep
I find that the mind wanders less if the mantra is said loudly and if it is said rapidly vs slowly. Also the longer the mantra is the more the concentration required and hence less the mind wanders. If the mind wanders than it is recognized faster than it would be in silent meditation with mantra. So isn't it beneficial for beginners to do the mantra japa aloud and at faster pace than the silent meditation.
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Sep 19 2008 : 04:24:06 AM
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Hi gentlep and neli
In AYP the mantra "I AM" is said internally and not aloud as japa.
What I have found works best in our AYP group when introducing beginners to the mantra is ask them to say it as quietly as possible.
To get people into this I suggest they sit and take a few deep breaths and look for and be aware of thoughts arising naturally in their mind.
After a minute or so they can usually identify what a thought is like. It is quite subtle and in the background.
The I EEE AM mantra is then introduced just like this - as a thought. This seems to jump people from a busy mind to a quiet one fairly quickly.
Regarding the speed of the mantra, let it go at whatever pace seems natural at the time. Often if the mind is busy the mantra will be fast and as the mind quietens so does the mantra.
It is also very helpful if you decide to believe that this can work for you.
The other side of this is, if you believe it won't work for you - then what - you might be wasting your time |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Sep 19 2008 : 09:46:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by gentlep
I find that the mind wanders less if the mantra is said loudly and if it is said rapidly vs slowly. Also the longer the mantra is the more the concentration required and hence less the mind wanders. If the mind wanders than it is recognized faster than it would be in silent meditation with mantra. So isn't it beneficial for beginners to do the mantra japa aloud and at faster pace than the silent meditation.
The process of AYP meditation is to lose the mantra and then come back to it. Every time you lose it and realize you have lost it and come back to it.. you touch silence. It is a process of accessing the gap, the silence, between two thoughts, for a few seconds. At first the gap is so small that we miss it. With practice, the access to this gap increases... and this gap, this silence is pure awareness.
quote:
http://www.aypsite.org/14.html
During meditation, we know the process is working when
we lose the mantra and later find ourselves in some other thoughts.
During the meditation procedure, these other thoughts are a symptom
that something has been released. Recognizing that, we go back to the
mantra and continue the process. It is important to be easy with the
mantra, not hanging on to a clear mental pronunciation, not hanging
on to an unclear mental pronunciation, no hanging on at all, just
easily being with it. If we develop this habit if easiness, the mind
will settle into its silence naturally. It is a natural process of
our mind we are facilitating.
Often it is just losing the mantra, having some pleasant unaccounted
for time of no mantra and no thoughts, then becoming aware of
thoughts again, and then going back to the mantra. The cleansing
process goes on. This is perfect meditation. This is the habit we
want to cultivate in meditation every day, for it will lead us to the
infinite.
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Edited by - Shanti on Sep 19 2008 10:56:40 AM |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Sep 19 2008 : 11:07:23 AM
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Hi,
The results from japa and meditation are different just as if we speak or listen, read or speak in our minds.In the following link within the mantra science book is/was a picture of a PET scan with all ways of word communication ie. hearing words,seeing words, speaking words, thinking of words.In each case the blood flow is concentrated in different parts of the brain showing different stimulation. As Shanti says with meditation we touch silence, in fact we enter deeper veils of the superconscious and in time for longer periods.In my experience these times are samadhi.http://www.awgp.org/english/books/b...english.html
Japa is an integral tool taught within my lineage so I feel adequately qualified to talk on this.In Kundalini Maha Yoga, japa is used to purify the energy system by creating vast amounts of energy.This is done by reciting the mantras as quickly as possible SILENTLY in one's mind.To chant them silently gives focus in the mind, therefore creating energy in the mind for purification(ie the third eye gets a good pounding of energyLOL)The effects are different to meditation and are not meant to induce silence but to purify the energy system.The effects of the mantras are also diffferent, such as the Butta Shuddi mantra which again is a purification mantra.
If one considers the limbs of yoga, specifically Pratyahara(withdrawal of the senses) then it is difficult to see how by speaking the mantras loud we can actually withdraw the senses.For example, when we sit to meditate we make ourselves comfortable so that we are not disturbed by pain or stiffness(in fact if you cannot sit in postures comfortably) then I think it's a non-starter straight away, and personal experience validates this for me.Whats the point of being crippled because there is no gain?Once we are sat we close the eyes(again we withdraw), allow our breathing to be natural and relaxed(withdraw),we hopefully already have silence in the room(withdrawal)and then we recite the mantra(dharana)allowing the mind to withdraw.
If one actually speaks the mantra then we have to use our sense of hearing to gain the benefit of the vibration.Of course we do get an effect allbeit a different effect.I see nothing wrong with speaking the mantras or Kirtan but I believe if it was the most effective way then we would not meditate but simply singalong.For deep abiding inner silence we need to keep the mantras inside and no matter what lineage you come from the chances are this is the way you will be taught.
L&L
Dave |
Edited by - riptiz on Sep 19 2008 11:44:56 AM |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Sep 19 2008 : 1:57:48 PM
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personally I would not care to quantify results of meditation or mantra by using computers. The reason being is that if you say, do this for 30 minutes and this will happen, the computers have shown. Well this brings expectations and part of meditation is to drop expectations. If a person does not see the expected results they may feel less worthy, loose some faith, etc..... I also think it can be innacurate, computers cannot read the level of a persons faith, cannnot read the level to which a person can "let go and let god" My advice/opinion would be to let go of all the computer readings, computers cannnot tell you the way to god, but then again here we are on computers talking about God  . If a computer said only 1 percent of people who do a meditation reach enlightenment then that may sit in our brains and make us think we cannot do it. Personally I dont care about anyone else but me, I believe if anyone can reach the state I can. This attitude has helped me to quit smoking, quit drinking, etc... Buhda once said "he is able who thinks he is able". IMO the finding of god happens when the quest for knowledge ends. In the stillness you can experience the true beauty of it all, drop the mind, drop the mi... drop th... dro... d......
just my thoughts brothers and sisters, I wish you all the best
I am lvoe, I am peace, I am joy and so are you
I am neil
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Sep 19 2008 : 5:04:25 PM
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Hi Neil,
I am not talking of relying on computers to validate mantra or meditation effects, in fact I don't mention this.I simply mention difference in receiving mantras and the difference in brain blood flow which MIGHT indicate different stimulation.When I speak of effects of japa I speak from daily experience and not hearsay or computer readings.You are correct, expectations can make some feel they are unworthy or doing practices incorrect.This is one of the reasons that traditionally the guru only gives limited answers and why the guru tells disciples not to discuss experiences with fellow disciples.Yogani has decided to go the opposite way and be open which is why it is important to emphasise not to get hung up on expereinces.
L&L
Dave |
Edited by - riptiz on Sep 19 2008 5:07:03 PM |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Sep 19 2008 : 5:44:00 PM
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brother rip
I was trying to think of a response but I dont really have one. the thought came to mind "I dont know" when it did I just laughed. I dont know man, but I enjoyed the laugh at my thought of not knowing My words arent gospel, especially since I dont know much, I do know I am here and now, but other then that? as far as getting caught up in experiences, I have had a lot lately and I have not a clue as to what they mean. I have had more experiences of love, peace, and joy though, not sure why but those I like
I am love, I am joy, I am peace and so are you
I am neil
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Sep 19 2008 : 6:04:04 PM
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gentlep,
Ones goal is NOT effective concentration by the egoic mind, is it?
Being forceful or loud about mantra mental enunciation would seem opposed to a spiritually necessary attitude of self-surrender. Perhaps one should never insist upon having ones own way in practice?
Yogani says, with regard to clarity of mantra, "less is more." Allow the "i am" to to have an inward intent, and let it go fuzzy........ On this, see the Wilder novel.
newpov |
Edited by - newpov on Sep 19 2008 6:41:15 PM |
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Sep 19 2008 : 9:29:59 PM
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Sparkle,
Yesterday I began with the "I am" mantra, chanted internally, and it worked, at the beginning was like lazy, but then something moved in my forehead, almost at the top of my head, was wonderful, cause I used to chant the mantras out loud (like in the Siddha Yoga) but I think I'm gonna make what Shanti pointed out, to lose the mantras and introduce a gap, I think its a very good idea to give it a try.
Very interesting to introduce the I am mantra as a thought between thoughts. I'll do this also.
Thanks a lot.
Neli
quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
Hi gentlep and neli
In AYP the mantra "I AM" is said internally and not aloud as japa.
What I have found works best in our AYP group when introducing beginners to the mantra is ask them to say it as quietly as possible.
To get people into this I suggest they sit and take a few deep breaths and look for and be aware of thoughts arising naturally in their mind.
After a minute or so they can usually identify what a thought is like. It is quite subtle and in the background.
The I EEE AM mantra is then introduced just like this - as a thought. This seems to jump people from a busy mind to a quiet one fairly quickly.
Regarding the speed of the mantra, let it go at whatever pace seems natural at the time. Often if the mind is busy the mantra will be fast and as the mind quietens so does the mantra.
It is also very helpful if you decide to believe that this can work for you.
The other side of this is, if you believe it won't work for you - then what - you might be wasting your time
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2008 : 04:17:36 AM
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quote:
Sparkle,
Yesterday I began with the "I am" mantra, chanted internally, and it worked, at the beginning was like lazy, but then something moved in my forehead, almost at the top of my head, was wonderful, cause I used to chant the mantras out loud (like in the Siddha Yoga) but I think I'm gonna make what Shanti pointed out, to lose the mantras and introduce a gap, I think its a very good idea to give it a try.
Very interesting to introduce the I am mantra as a thought between thoughts. I'll do this also.
Thanks a lot.
Neli
That's good to hear Neli
Yes, Shanti's post is excellent. Keep us posted on how you get on.
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2008 : 04:23:53 AM
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Hi Neil,
Well having no idea it seems you have joined the rest of us LOL. In fact I have read several books, Quantum physics based and have attended the Matrix Energetics seminar 1 and 2 in New York and the more I learn about Quantum physics, the more I realise it's the same message.None of us have a clue what is going on!The rishis simply recorded their expereinces in the only way they could transmit it.A well known Quantum physicist has said 'if anyone tells you that they understand Quantum physics(including himself)then they are lying to you.The thing that does seem to be coming out of QP is that it all seems the same as yoga. Nothing new again then?I tell my students they will awaken some days and know they have changed but cannot explain what, why or how. So I tell them to move on, as Yogani says 'it's simply scenery'.
With love,
Dave |
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2008 : 10:26:19 PM
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Sparkle,
It's a little hard to stop the chattering of the mind, but it worked when I tried with a happy thought, then I stopped, I just felt seconds of a kind of an energy, don't know if it is Shakti working here, or is another energy, then I could felt like a void in the mind, very strange, then my mind was like wanting again the thought then I let it begin to form, then I stop. Its a strange sensation but its nice. I have to practice more. I don't know if it works the same with thoughts that we don't like.
I also want to try the slow walking and then stop, just to feel the sensation.
This is similar to NLP but this one is very intense, like switching the mind into blissness.
Some swamis recommend to repeat the "shreem" mantra into the mind lots of times, till the mind calms down, but this just works for a little while.
I had begun to introduce the "I am" between toughts, its amazing, but it gives strenght to the mind, and has a lot of power.
Neli
quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
quote:
Sparkle,
Yesterday I began with the "I am" mantra, chanted internally, and it worked, at the beginning was like lazy, but then something moved in my forehead, almost at the top of my head, was wonderful, cause I used to chant the mantras out loud (like in the Siddha Yoga) but I think I'm gonna make what Shanti pointed out, to lose the mantras and introduce a gap, I think its a very good idea to give it a try.
Very interesting to introduce the I am mantra as a thought between thoughts. I'll do this also.
Thanks a lot.
Neli
That's good to hear Neli
Yes, Shanti's post is excellent. Keep us posted on how you get on.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Sep 21 2008 : 08:39:02 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by neli
It's a little hard to stop the chattering of the mind, but it worked when I tried with a happy thought, then I stopped, I just felt seconds of a kind of an energy, don't know if it is Shakti working here, or is another energy, then I could felt like a void in the mind, very strange, then my mind was like wanting again the thought then I let it begin to form, then I stop. Its a strange sensation but its nice. I have to practice more. I don't know if it works the same with thoughts that we don't like.
Neli
Awesome.. if you have experienced the gap once.. you can do it again and again. Just keep practicing it during the day.. like I said in that post (Something to try...).. as you practice this more.. the time you live in this gap increases.. and the more silence you bring into your everyday life.
Don't try to bring up negative thoughts, but when they come up.. if you remember, practice this technique. It's amazing how everything dissolves in this gap.
If you have time watch this http://www.brightcove.tv/channel.js...=336103882.. else watch this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Xyv...ture=related.
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2008 : 08:32:12 AM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2008 : 6:30:41 PM
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Hi Shanti,
Sorry for my late response, but I haven't seen this post . Sometimes we act so mechanical that we forget to stop to see (like a gap of the mind) . Very interesting the you-tube video about the gaps, its very true, we must remind this all the time, to stop the chattering of the mind. Time ago I had a friend hosted near my house that was a swami of the Ananda Marga group, he used to meditate on the cemetery on full moons , never understood the why, he told me once it was to attain fearlessly, and he spent all night on the cemetery in meditation, then he returned to NYC, I don't know if this guru of the video is from the same group of the Ananda Marga, or there are different gròups.
I try everyday to practice the gap, in different ways, mostly to be "aware" of myself, its only seconds that I can feel this gap. hope this will increase more. I haven't brought up the negative stuff, till I can handle more the positive one. I mean with the positive thought and the gap, I can feel a good sensation (in the gap) but am afraid to prove it on the negative side.
Thanks for the video and the links! Like the guru said "the shaft" of thoughts dissolves or doesn't exist. Although it's pretty hard to attain this point.
Kind regards
Neli
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
quote:
Originally posted by neli
It's a little hard to stop the chattering of the mind, but it worked when I tried with a happy thought, then I stopped, I just felt seconds of a kind of an energy, don't know if it is Shakti working here, or is another energy, then I could felt like a void in the mind, very strange, then my mind was like wanting again the thought then I let it begin to form, then I stop. Its a strange sensation but its nice. I have to practice more. I don't know if it works the same with thoughts that we don't like.
Neli
Awesome.. if you have experienced the gap once.. you can do it again and again. Just keep practicing it during the day.. like I said in that post (Something to try...).. as you practice this more.. the time you live in this gap increases.. and the more silence you bring into your everyday life.
Don't try to bring up negative thoughts, but when they come up.. if you remember, practice this technique. It's amazing how everything dissolves in this gap.
If you have time watch this http://www.brightcove.tv/channel.js...=336103882.. else watch this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Xyv...ture=related.
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Saying mantra loudly
