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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 10 2008 : 12:59:19 PM
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I was wondering about breathing techniques today and i totally confused myself!
For example, in spinal breathing we are instructed to hold the breath after the inhalation. However, when the breath is held either in or out the Co2 levels rise and this forces one to breath again. So if spinal breathing is oxygenating the blood more than normal breathing does, and you hold the breath so the Co2 levels rise, isn't this contradictory?
Again, when meditating the metabolism slows and breathing begins to suspend, usually on the exhale. So this means that Co2 is building up again and there is an oxygen deficit. This may give people a "buzz" but it surely cannot be healthy?
How do you reconcile spinal breathing and meditation with the above facts? That is, in spinal breathing you are oxygenating the blood more yet allowing Co2 levels to rise at the same time (?) and in meditation you aren't oxygenating the blood with any breathing techniques and the Co2 builds up and these two techniques seem to be contradicting each other and yet we are led to believe that the slowing of metabolism occurs with both of them. Am i making any sense here?
I understand that when the metabolism slows down the relative levels of oxygen and carbon dioxide both decreases at the same time, hence there is no deficit of oxygen and no build up of Co2. But i am still puzzled by the fact that in spinal breathing the oxygenation of the blood through even and slow breathing is contradicted by the holding of the breath after the inhale so that the Co2 levels build. Wouldn't it make more sense to not pause on the inhalation?
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Edited by - AYPforum on Jul 10 2008 1:25:23 PM |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2008 : 1:25:23 PM
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shankar
Norway
35 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2008 : 4:23:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
I was wondering about breathing techniques today and i totally confused myself!
For example, in spinal breathing we are instructed to hold the breath after the inhalation. However, when the breath is held either in or out the Co2 levels rise and this forces one to breath again. So if spinal breathing is oxygenating the blood more than normal breathing does, and you hold the breath so the Co2 levels rise............Wouldn't it make more sense to not pause on the inhalation?
Hi!
Your questions are very valid. There isn`t much to be gained by simply holding your breath until you are going to burst. Pranayama is a very convoluted set of practises and should never be attempted without supervision, especially by beginners.
I don`t have a direct response to your query on CO2 levels, but I do know that pauses are NOT the main part of Pranayama excercises.
Often when Pranayama is discussed, it is the holding of the breath that is emphasized. Yet the ancient texts talk about the total breath, not simply Kumbhaka or Breath Retention. The Yoga Sutra discusses the Stages of Breathing in this order of importance:
1.Exhalation as the most important
2.Inhalation as secondary
3. breath retention
In fact, the texts go so far as to say that proper exhalation is the alpha and omega of Pranayama. If you get it wrong, you might as well pack it up.
I have taken the above from an excellent site that explains in details the ins and outs of Pranayama. I would recommend the link below and the whole of the rest of the site to anyone who is curious about the ins and outs of proper techniques for inhalation-retention and exhalation.
http://www.abc-of-yoga.com/pranayam...halation.asp
Hope this is of some help to you. Good luck in your journey of self discovery.
Namaste!
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2008 : 6:01:51 PM
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Hi Shankar, thanks for your reply. I am aware that external kumbaka is easy. And i understand your contentions. However, i still am having difficulty understanding this whole issue!!
I hope someone else can chime in on this. It will make my life a little easier in terms of my thought processes!
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2008 : 6:31:02 PM
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However, when the breath is held either in or out the Co2 levels rise and this forces one to breath again. So if spinal breathing is oxygenating the blood more than normal breathing does, and you hold the breath so the Co2 levels rise, isn't this contradictory?
Gumpi, perhaps the difficulty you are having with this is because you may have picked up the notion that 'oxygenating' the blood is good in itself, or is the goal of pranayama?
This notion can arise because, well, it's been historically taught by various yogis but it isn't really accurate. Many of the people who brought yoga to the west didn't really have much scientific understanding.
Oxygen shouldn't be identified with prana -- prana is a yoga-cultural concept which doesn't necessarily map to any one thing scientifically.
Oxygen shouldn't be considered something 'good' that our body needs more of, and CO2 shouldn't be considered something 'bad' that we need less of, and shaking the levels of either shouldn't be considered bad either -- heavy exercise, after all really kicks up your CO2 levels and is good for you. The rest afterwards brings your CO2 levels back down and is also good for you.
We now know that when meditation gets deep, oddly enough, CO2 levels actually go up! Go figure!
I hope that helps!
-D
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2008 : 12:35:18 PM
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Hi Gumpi:
Just to clarify, kumbhaka (breath suspension) is not part of the AYP instructions for spinal breathing pranayama, which is not to say it won't happen naturally sometimes, just as it can in deep meditation. Then we just easily favor the procedure of our practice as given.
The only practices in AYP where kumbhaka is intentionally engaged in are yoni mudra, chin pump, uddiyana/nauli and maha mudra, and then sparingly. A little bit goes a long way, particularly with a full boat of practices in play.
Wherever you learned kumbhaka as part of the procedure of spinal breathing is probably where you should be asking for clarification.
If you are looking to follow AYP methodology, then reviewing the lessons is suggested.
It never ceases to amaze me how many renditions of practice there are out there, with many being invented on the fly right here in front of us, and how often we are asked to justify and/or explain them in the AYP forums.
I guess it goes with the territory of being "open source." Or should we say "open season" on yoga practices? 
It is okay to experiment, but it is suggested to be sure to keep one foot in the "safe harbor" of an established knowledge-base. The AYP lessons can serve that purpose.
For those whose path consists of "anything and everything goes," all I can say is, good luck. We have a few practitioners around here like that, some who even offer people off-the-cuff advice on this or that practice de jour (for today only, and a new one for tomorrow). Jeepers!
Newcomers, please be advised that, when in doubt, it is best to check the lessons.
The forums are not the best place to learn a yoga practice routine, but a good place to share and receive clarifications on existing practices, with an eye toward stabilizing an effective long term daily practice routine.
Not picking on you, Gumpi. Just taking the opportunity to offer some general info on what these forums are, and what they are not.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2008 : 1:18:42 PM
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I think that was a very valid point and a needed clarification Yogani.
I personally just follow the lessons as the main source (sometimes I do search for clarifications in the forums - or in my own inner guru  ), taking it one step at a time, at my own pace. Doing little at a time and always chacking if unwanted symptoms arise. I think this is important.
Sometimes I do integrate different AYP practices but always check the lessons first to see if they are compatible.
I think the lessons are very clear and methodoligies are very clearly delimited and explained. Good job!
All the best! |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2008 : 3:44:22 PM
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Yogani, you will have to forgive me if i sound bad here but if i am reading correctly you just said that spinal breathing doesn't include kumbaka (retention of breath). But according to the lessons we are instructed to hold the breath a few seconds at the termination of the inhalation. So unless i am mistaken, this is actually kumbaka. Also, prolongued practice of this will cause more Co2 build up. Now, i am not against a little Co2 buzz personally, but my question is simply - is this healthy?
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Richard
United Kingdom
857 Posts |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2008 : 5:41:40 PM
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Hi Gumpi:
Spinal breathing with intentional kumbhaka is acknowledged as a common non-AYP practice in a few places in the lessons. There is some tolerance for it, since people often arrive in AYP doing it from other teachings (some I have great respect for, like the late Norman Paulsen). However, kumbhaka in spinal breathing is not instructed in AYP, and for good reason.
I have a lot of experience with kumbhaka in the early years, and this is reflected in John Wilder's "journey of discovery" in the Secrets of Wilder novel, where some serious excesses were experienced. John's system of practices as finally presented does not include intentional breath suspension in spinal breathing, for the same reasons AYP does not. It is a practice that is very difficult to keep stable over the long term. The absence of intentional kumbhaka from spinal breathing is more than made up for by a broad integration of practices that can be kept stable over the long term with prudent self-pacing. It is a much easier path, and more progressive too, because it does not involve the health hazards and long breaks from practice necessitated by the excesses that can be caused by too much kumbhaka.
As for CO2 and O2, I don't see the relevance of tracking these in yoga. Maybe for scientific research, but not for regulating our practice. Paramahansa Yogananda made many great contributions in the field of yoga in his day, but his focus on CO2 and carbon in the blood was not one of them. The truth of the matter is that pranayama (even without kumbhaka) places a slight challenge on the pranic needs of the body that are usually provided for by oxygen through normal breathing. Gentle "restraint of breath" (the meaning of the word "pranayama") thereby stimulates an awakening of the vast pranic storehouse of sexual energy in the pelvic region. This is similar to fasting, which causes the body to draw on fat and other tissues with a purifying effect when deprived of nutrition in the the form of food.
So, pranayama is for awakening our internal storehouse of prana, which we call ecstatic energy, or kundalini. As purification advances, the entire nervous system comes alive with this vibrant energy, and we call this the rise of "ecstatic conductivity."
Maybe this explanation of pranayama would not have gone over so well in 1925, so Yogananda came up with the CO2 and blood cleansing thing to appease the scientific minds of the day. Nowadays, in the face of rapidly rising experiential knowledge of both pranayama and kundalini, the CO2/pranayama rationale is seen to be irrelevant. At least that has been the experience here. If someone can point to the relevance of CO2 in regulating yoga practices I'd love to hear about it. I do agree that all of this should be thoroughly studied by the scientific community, but that is another thing -- see here.
In the meantime, just practice daily with good common sense, self-pace as necessary, and enjoy the results in daily life. If you want to get the most out of your spinal breathing, be sure to engage in deep meditation right after. Then you will be cultivating both ecstatic conductivity and inner silence, the two pillars of enlightenment, which gradually merge to yield abiding inner silence, ecstatic bliss and outpouring divine love -- stillness in action! 
The guru is in you.
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tadeas
Czech Republic
314 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2008 : 7:14:44 PM
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Hello Yogani,
I have some further questions. You might have read my post here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=3729#35170
What are the health hazards you mentioned and what do you regard as long-term stability? Weeks, months, years?
Any other hints from you on the kumbhakas apart from the advice to discontinue them altogether? :)
P.S. I know this is not following the ayp routine, but as you said Yogani that you have experience with kumbhakas, I'd like to hear some more details, if possible. Thanks :) |
Edited by - tadeas on Jul 11 2008 8:16:47 PM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2008 : 8:46:35 PM
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Hi Tadeas:
The health hazards are those related to excessive kundalini energy, which can be extreme if kumbhaka is pursued without restraint. Take any of the kundalini symtoms described around here (or in lesson 69) and multiply them several-fold. In the Secrets of Wilder novel there was extreme rash, making the practitioner very ill and unable to do any practices for months. It can happen.
A light amount of kumbhaka during spinal breathing is not likely to be harmful, but it is sometimes hard to tell, due to delayed reactions in the nervous system that may not show up for weeks, months, or even years.
This is not to say everyone who does kumbhaka during spinal breathing will have these issues. Ironically, it is probably more likely to be an issue for an AYP practitioner, because deep meditation greatly enhances the effect of all other practices. The combination of practices produces a whole greater than the sum of the parts.
There are some in kriya yoga who have been doing extensive pranayama (sometimes with kumbhaka) for hours every day for years without significant effects, much to their disappointment. This is probably because they do not have an effective method of meditation to put with their pranayama. But then maybe later after a little deep meditation, boom!
It happens sometimes with asana practitioners too, which is a sort of pranayama (restraint of prana) of the body. One day, boom, kundalini breaks loose, from asanas alone. It is not common, but it does happen. This is why a balanced and self-paced integration of practices is best. It reduces the possibility of sudden overflow, since everything is being purified and opened simultaneously.
We have less room for excess in any single practice in AYP, because the combination of what we are using is much more powerful. That is why self-pacing is so important. It is a blessing really. It is like any powerful technology. We have to learn how to navigate with it safely to get the full benefit, while minimizing mishaps.
To do kumbhaka in spinal breathing or not? It is really your choice. As mentioned, a modest amount should not be harmful. The suggestion if you do it is to go light and self-pace as necessary, keeping in mind that there can be a delayed effect in pranayama practices. Or maybe don't do kumbhaka at all in spinal breathing (except some automatic as it comes), knowing that you have more than enough practices in hand already to get the job done with less risk. Slow spinal breathing by itself is "restraint of breath" also. There are many ways to produce the effect without risking too much overdoing.
The guru is in you.
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 12 2008 : 04:40:29 AM
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Sorry Yogani for my mistake in saying you instructed to hold the breath in spinal breathing. I made an assumption (damn these assumptions!)
It seems reasonable enough to me that when metabolism slows there is no build up of Co2 because it is balanced with oxygen in the blood.
Regarding kundalini, you say it is the sexual essences rising up through the body. Also, i think you said once that it is also prana. I had been of the understanding that kumbhaka that is unforced actually makes the kundalini stir and rise. I'm not sure where i read that.
In my meditations i am finding that it isn't too hard to keep my mind on the mantra and i think i must be doing it wrong because you say the effectiveness comes by way of forgetting the mantra and gently bringing back attention to it - forgetting, going back, forgetting etc etc. So either my concentration is too strong or there is nothing wrong with that?
Do you consider samadhi to be a goal of practice? What do you think about the idea that samadhi has to become permanent so that we escape reincarnation? |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Jul 12 2008 : 1:10:04 PM
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Hi Gumpi:
quote:
Regarding kundalini, you say it is the sexual essences rising up through the body. Also, i think you said once that it is also prana.
Yes, prana, sexual essences and kundalini are different deliniations of the same thing. It is all energy.
quote:
I had been of the understanding that kumbhaka that is unforced actually makes the kundalini stir and rise. I'm not sure where i read that.
Yes, that is right. Kumbhaka is a form of pranayama, restraint of life force taken to the limit. It can happen automatically with the rise of inner silence -- but not to overdo it! See my other posts on this above.
quote:
In my meditations i am finding that it isn't too hard to keep my mind on the mantra and i think i must be doing it wrong because you say the effectiveness comes by way of forgetting the mantra and gently bringing back attention to it - forgetting, going back, forgetting etc etc. So either my concentration is too strong or there is nothing wrong with that?
The procedure is very simple. When you realize you are off the mantra, just easily favor it at whatever level of clarity or fuzziness is comfortable in the moment. It will be different at different times. No forcing. Deep meditation is not about "concentrating" on the mantra. It is about picking it up as a faint mental repetition (dharana), letting it refine (dhyana), and then off somewhere forgetting (samadhi), followed by noticing and then picking the mantra up again. If the mantra is there the whole time, fine. If it comes and goes, fine. If it is hardly there at all, with or without other thoughts, fine. It doesn't matter. Though what is happening can change a lot due to the process of purification and opening going on inside, the procedure of meditation never changes. Very simple.
quote:
Do you consider samadhi to be a goal of practice?
The goal in practice is to do the procedure. Nothing else. The goal outside practice is to live life fully according to our inclinations, and enjoy! Meditation enlivens our life with inner silence. That is why we do it. Samadhi and inner silence are the same thing. As mentioned in an earlier post, pranayama works on the energetic side, awakening ecstatic conductivity, which enables inner silence (samadhi) to radiate outward into our everyday life as ecstatic bliss and outpouring divine love.
quote:
What do you think about the idea that samadhi has to become permanent so that we escape reincarnation?
Samadhi does become permanent. That I know. Enjoying freedom from suffering and expressing divine love in this life are reasons enough for it. Whether it ends reincarnation or not, I will have to let you know in the next life, if there is one.
Enjoy the present. It is all we have.
The guru is in you.
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anillsinha
India
9 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2012 : 08:26:00 AM
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Dear Yogani,
quote:
If someone can point to the relevance of CO2 in regulating yoga practices I'd love to hear about it.
Modern findings are as under:
1. Scarcity of carbon dioxide in the blood pushes it towards excess alkalinity beyond the ideal pH range of 7.35-7.45. This makes the blood sticky and it develops more affinity to oxygen thereby reducing the amount of oxygen delivered to body tissues.
2. Carbon dioxide is a vasodilator. It dilates the blood vessels and thus allows the blood to flow in all parts of the body for delivery of oxygen including the brain. Lack of CO2 constricts the blood vessels and the blood cannot reach all body parts.
3. CO2 is a broncho-dilator and it protects the lung.
4. Our body cells need around 7% of CO2 and only 2% of CO2. As against this air has around 0.03% CO2 and 20 % O2. So lack of oxygen in blood is a remote possibility. Lack of CO2 can easily happen if a person overbreathes / hyperventilates. Lack of CO2 reduces the amount of oxygen delivered to body cells.
5. There is a Bohr’s effect in Medical science, according to which blood delivers more oxygen to those body cells which have more CO2 to give in exchange. The cells which do not have CO2 to give in exchange will not be able to receive O2 from the blood. This explains the need of exercise which increases metabolism in the cells and enables them to produce CO2 and receive oxygen from blood in exchange.
6. Excess of oxygen in blood creates free radicals which damage the cells.
7. Even when one exhales deeply, lung has around 2.5 litres of residual air which is its CO2 reservoir and protects against too much loss of CO2 in the short run.
8. But continued overbreathing / hyperventilation without matching physical exercise at the same time depletes the CO2. This also reduces the amount of O2 delivered to tissues and the body becomes prone to all kinds of diseases.
Ref:
http://www.normalbreathing.com/CO2.php
http://thebreathingman.wordpress.co...9i90v7sn-69/
http://www.normalbreathing.com/yoga2.php
(Note: While checking the above sites, it may be noted that they use the term ‘deep breathing’ for excess volume of air inhaled in a minute. That is to say they use deep breathing for ‘heavy breathing’ which depletes CO2 and is detrimental to health. In other references deep breathing means abdominal / diaphragmatic breathing. In that sense it is beneficial.)
Based on the above I have drawn / conjectured the following inferences from my limited understanding for the subtler mechanism of pranayam:
1. Pranayama like bhastrika and kapalbhati are based on hyperventilation and will induce constriction of blood vessels and lack of oxygen in cells including brain cells. Such pranayama will cause light-headedness and dizziness depending upon the health of the person and may cause irreversible damage to brain, if done in excess.
2. Pranayama like alternate nostril breathing, full yogic breathing, bhramari etc, if done slowly, will cause hypoventilation, increasing CO2 level in blood. This dilates the blood vessels and blood capillaries enabling the blood to flow in the hitherto blocked vessels / capillaries and deliver oxygen to the cells. This has rejuvenating effect on the entire system.
3. Kumbhak (Breath holding after exhale /inhale) also increases CO2 level. But excess of kumbhak can do harm, since it increases the CO2 level too much.
4. SBP is a slow breathing technique. So it gives the benefit of breath restraint (by moderately increasing CO2 level, dilating blood vessels and capillaries allowing blood to flow into them for delivery of oxygen to the tissues including the brain tissues) without the harm of forceful breath holding. Since the attention is on the flow of energy in the spine and eyes are raised towards the third eye it activates subtler psychophysiological / neurobiological processes to draw up the prana from the lower chakras towards higher centres / chakras, reduces metabolism (and consequently reduces the need of oxygen) and induces kevala kumbhak i.e., effortless cessation of breath. It fills up each cell with the prana and prepares the person for super-consciousness.
I think you already know the above from your insight. Also these things may be under the hood and need not be thought of while practicing.
You can bring more light on the subject.
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2012 : 11:56:20 AM
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Hi anillsinha:
Many thanks for your post delving into the inner mechanics of CO2 and O2 relationship in pranayama. Fascinating stuff!
There is a book that came out in 2012 that covers similar ground, and other things:
"The Science of Yoga: The Risks and Rewards" by William Broad
Of course, it is for us to practice, and make our assessments of causes and effects based on direct experience. The science can be helpful in pointing out the "why" of our inner expansion and awakening, while at the same time pointing out potential pitfalls along the way. The rewards can be very great with effective practice, and the risks can be minimized through prudent self-pacing.
Wishing you all the best on your continuing path. Practice wisely, and enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2012 : 5:24:20 PM
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As an addition, after a year of SBP I had a visit to the doctor after picking up a mild chest infection. The Doctor hooked me up to a dissolved oxygen analyser and got some very unexpected results. The dissolved oxygen level was barely registering and he was very concerned. I told him that it was because I could keep my breathing at a kind of idle, barely ticking over.
He said it wasn't possible. I then took a breath and the level went to a normal reading. He told me it was not supposed to happen like that and tried it on himself. His trading stayed constant despite deep breaths.
I have wondered since then if this might be attributable to SBP. I wasn't 100% sure he really knew what he was doing, but the results were as predicted when he tested it on himself.
No certain if this adds anything to the discussion, it was interesting at the time. |
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Regarding breathing
