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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 28 2008 : 1:02:06 PM
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Moderator Note: Split from: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=3678#31866
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It seems counter-intuitive to me to favor practices over "scenery" because whatever experiences happen are surely supposed to happen for purification?
I don't really agree with favouring practices unless there is too much "energy" as other people here talk about.
Basically, it is not true that when the breath ceases and you notice it that the metabolism speeds up. What does happen is that you notice you aren't breathing and you then think, "Oh my God, i am not breathing!". If this thought itself contains any anxiety then the breath will come back. But if you are used to this experience the breath ceases for longer and longer periods.
Spinal breathing is basically kriya yoga, just with a different name. The goal of Kriya is breathlessness. There are many reasons why this is true. There are Vedic writings saying things to the effect of, "He who has achieved kevala khumbaka is liberated - there is nothing in the three worlds he cannot realise" etc and so on. Breathlessness is not a siddhi, it is just the natural product of deep relaxation. Yogis say that the breath and the mind are intimately connected and so stopping one of them stops the other. Samadhi IS breathlessness. In samadhi all the normal bodily processes have stopped and the cells don't decay - the body goes into suspended animation. The purpose of all this is for a person to realise they are not the body or the mind. Otherwise what else is enlightenment about than being liberated from forced physical rebirth? You are supposed to shed all mortal desires and attachments. Nirvikalpa samadhi is the highest state and this state signifies that a person has cut all the chords of attachment to this plane and earth. Anybody that says otherwise is deluding themselves. If someone says they are in samadhi and they are breathing as normal you can laugh at them. It is like someone saying they are asleep when they are running.
The spiritual eye is not "scenery"! It is the door to samadhi. If nobody on AYP wants to be enlightened and liberated, then by all means continue your practices and ignore the scenery.
And when the breath is calm, the mind is calm, pratyahara happens and concentration is 99% easier. Not to mention the feeling is great!!
Also, someone here wrote that when they have khumbaka they are circulating the ida and pingala currents mentally in their spine. This is simply not true. It may be true for you but this is not supposed to happen. The Bhagavad Gita and Patanjali both do not confirm that experience. "Offering the inhaling breath into the exhaling breath, and the exhaling breath into the inhaling breath the yogi neutralises both and thus realises life energy from the heart". In other words, when you breathe in the prana current pulls up energy up the spine and when you breathe out the Apana current pulls the energy down the spine; and when you neutralise prana and apana (or ida and pingala) there is no flow of energy up and down the spine anymore. The action of the diaphram stops and the breath stops. This is the whole point of awakening the kundalini. The kundalini rises through the central canal of the spine instead of the breath making the spinal currents of ida and pingala. |
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avatar186
USA
146 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2008 : 4:40:43 PM
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wait wait, are you guys just talking about un refined chi?
samadhia being the breathless state, all els just being cessation of breath.
autobiography of a yogi says, kriya aims to decarbonizing the body and over oxygenating, or turning extra oxygen into energy.
THUS, do the opposite of hyperventalation.
eventually youll get the "impusle" whitch it definitly is, to stop breathing, youll just wanna stop, you dont feel like you need to anymore. keep going and you start to vibrate, sustain enough intense vibration for long enough and nerve channels open.
NOW i believe this is what the lotus pose is for, and the crutch under the arm, both cut the circulation of blood off. though ive had varying result with these practises. simply standing up, and keeping the rythem works. this energy is also said to be connected to the sexual so watch out.
growing intensity is not what is desierd, for you may go to far, but a steady intenseness lets one sustain long enough for nerves to jiggle and wiggle till they open.
the secret of the golden flower states breath energy comes from the heart, this being the solar plexus. |
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Nancy
USA
71 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2008 : 5:49:24 PM
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Edited by - Nancy on Mar 31 2008 12:04:38 AM |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2008 : 3:36:19 PM
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I saw (vs)and decided to redo my post to be more inclusive: 
Anyway, when there is breath cessation it is absorbed into another body part and appears to disappear and some consciously follow this breath as it transforms/absorbs within the heart. And it's been mentioned if a person stays within Nirvikalpa more than 21 days then they will die or be liberated. So this is an interesting article that relates to this:
"It is unknown how blood in the embryo circulates for the first 21 days in the absence of a functioning heart, although some have hypothesized that the heart is not so much a pump, as a Hydraulic Ram -- an organ built-up from cumulative peripheral activity. [1]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart
And so this peripheral activity is relegated to the PNS or the peripheral nervous system which extends outside of the central nervous system consisting of the autonomic and somatic system, which serves the limbs and organs and is related to static and dynamic energy as mentioned here:
"A liberated soul can safely stay for twenty-one or twenty-two days in nirvikalpa samadhi if the Divine wants that particular soul to continue on the path of dynamic manifestation. If the Divine wants the individual to remain in the Brahman of static realisation, then his soul will not return to the earth-consciousness after he has attained nirvikalpa samadhi and he will have to leave the body."
http://www.writespirit.net/spiritua...alpa_samadhi
I'm not too familiar with Kriya, but it seems that this is another beautiful path that leads to the same place that AYP Teaches. Some prefer to go under the hood of the car and some prefer to immediately sit in the driver seat. One knows how to fix a car, while one prefers to drive and view the scenery, while another is a back seat driver (LOLOL), but it's the same car. Or, another way: there's no use saying that one part of the body is superior than the next, since it's the same body, but it makes sense that if one emphasizes experience over practice that this is just another system that lead us back home:
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Mar 29 2008 5:01:46 PM |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2008 : 01:03:39 AM
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Hey,
I've discovered the notion of breath cessation state even deeper states linked to the 8 signs indicating the progressive dissolution of the winds into the central channel through tibetan system.
Please look from page 73 of yhe book "Clear light of Bliss" written by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso:
http://books.google.fr/books?id=Oix...DVCBJEs4CdwM
I would interested in having your comparative of this yoga versus AYP practices.
Albert
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2008 : 06:05:32 AM
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| What a very interesting book! Lots of my weird symptoms, including breath cessation, are explained there! Thank you, Albert! |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 12:34:31 AM
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gumpi, when I hear "breathless state", I don't think no breath. I mean... I've had times in meditation where my breath seems to cease, or where my whole being becomes only what I'm focusing on and everything else just melts away.
Scenery... lack of scenery... it's all the same to me. Same with inside, outside, love, hate, enlightenment, no enlightenment, breath, no breath. It's all the same. I can attach meaning to some, but then I'm just getting further away from the truth. Your path, my path... same thing. Stasis, no stasis... if you can be aware in either state, it leads to the same truth. Some have found truth in one direction, and they claim "this direction is right, this is how you must realise truth". They're not wrong or right, it matters not. Some will follow, and realise enlightenment, others will not search for truth, others will take different paths. All paths lead to the self, one can't avoid the self forever. How can one even measure a path as being greater? YOu can take ANYTHING, absolutly anything, and bring awareness to it, and realise enlightenment.
I almost feel like meditating on a purple dinosaur until I fully realize enlightenment, just to prove my point :). Or maybe green, I like green... bah, purple, green, it matters not ;).
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Thokar
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 11:40:16 AM
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divineis,
thats an awesome idea you have there about the purplish green dinosaur... I may even take this new sadhana to a higher level by implementing dino-spino-breathing into my routine and perhaps my purple friend will even sing me a song at each chakra!!
Ill let u know how it goes!!! lolol j/k of course |
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AustrianYogi
Austria
31 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 11:56:04 AM
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Hello and Atma Namaste from Vienna, Austria!
I am also interested in a comparison between Kriya-Yoga and the AYP-approach. Breathlessnes means really breathlessness: For the aim of practising deep meditation following the Kriya-tradition, the life- current is switched off from the body, which results in perfect pratyahara. The body is fed with life-energy through the medulla oblongata, oxygen is not necessary, the heart stops beating. A great system, but I am not very advanced yet.
Is there an advanced kriya-yogi, who can tell us more about the differences, advantages of these two systems. AYP and Kriya?
Andreas |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 12:45:40 PM
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Hi Everyone 
Interestingly, I was reading this ebook about Kriya Yoga yesterday so I thought I'd share it:
quote:
One day, during mental Pranayama, while I was climbing up and down the
Chakras, I distinctly perceived a fresh energy sustaining my body from
inside. I entered a perfect immobility and, at a certain moment, I discovered I was completely without breath. This condition lasted various minutes, without any feeling of uneasiness: there was neither the least quiver of surprise, or the thought: «Finally I have it!».
-page 52
Here is the link:
http://www.kriyayogainfo.net/files/...complete.pdf
TI
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 3:00:14 PM
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"I am also interested in a comparison between Kriya-Yoga and the AYP-approach. Breathlessnes means really breathlessness: For the aim of practising deep meditation following the Kriya-tradition, the life- current is switched off from the body, which results in perfect pratyahara. The body is fed with life-energy through the medulla oblongata, oxygen is not necessary, the heart stops beating. A great system, but I am not very advanced yet.
Is there an advanced kriya-yogi, who can tell us more about the differences, advantages of these two systems. AYP and Kriya?"
I think i can answer your question, though you may have to give me a little time.
I think firstly that your conception of pratyahara is not correct. The senses do not switch off when the breath ceasses. That is not correct at all. The senses only switch of somewhat when you are in a sleep state. The only other way to switch them off is by anesthetic.
But it is true that if you breathe really slowly you see lights in your field of vision, and you feel very relaxed.
What any of that has to do with God i don't know. |
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AustrianYogi
Austria
31 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 3:21:12 PM
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Hello!
I have to clarify, what I know: The senses are cut off, because the life energy is drawn back from the body into the spinal cord and upward to the third eye.
This is only possible, when the heart does not need life energy, the movements of the heart are not needed, when oxygen is not necessary. But the body does not die, because life energy, drawn into the body through the medulla oblongata, sustains the body. Complete stillness is achieved, as the external senses are switched off.
This is neither personal opinion nor my own experience, but the concept I know from the written teachings, and it seems quite logic. Only someone, who knows both systems very well and in detail is able to compare them.
Andreas |
Edited by - AustrianYogi on Apr 01 2008 06:16:00 AM |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 4:32:37 PM
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Hi Thokar,
quote:
thats an awesome idea you have there about the purplish green dinosaur... I may even take this new sadhana to a higher level by implementing dino-spino-breathing into my routine and perhaps my purple friend will even sing me a song at each chakra!!
We can call it "Barney Breathing."
Best, yb. |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2008 : 12:34:56 AM
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Hello,
Just to make sure we use the same terminology in this thread: do you consider tummo (inner fire) as one possible kriya yoga ?
As a reminder, tummo is the first entry yoga of the Six yogas of Naropa.
Albert |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Apr 02 2008 : 10:15:29 AM
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Albert,
roughly whereabouts do you live in France? My parents have a holiday home in the south in a place called Lamalou.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Apr 02 2008 : 7:34:51 PM
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Hi all,
There is a useful comparison between AYP and Kriya Yoga in this and the following few posts:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....page=2#21261
As you can see, there is a certain amount of overlap, or you might say that Kriya Yoga has been incorporated.
Christi
p.s. I think the breathless state is something that happens in its own time, and not necessarily something to strive for.
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2008 : 01:10:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
p.s. I think the breathless state is something that happens in its own time, and not necessarily something to strive for.
Hi Christi and Everyone
I just had to dig out my Self Realization Fellowship lessons and reread the Hong Sau meditation and the Om meditation.
Seems the whole point of the Hong Sau meditation is to relax every single cell in the body down to the point where there is no more need for oxygen; the breathing stops and the heart stops. This is the whole point, breathlessness or rather, the control of life-force is the thing to strive for.
From lesson 22:
quote:
Only those who properly regulate the breath--that is, are able to do without breath at will by practice of a scientific technique such as Hong-Sau--can attain Self-realization.
The Hong-Sau meditation technique is performing Shambhavi, watching the breath but not controlling it and repeating "Hong" on the in-breath and "Sau" on the out-breath. There are other body tenseing and preparatory exercises to go along with this. Here is the explanation of the 'science behind it':
quote:
When you consciously watch the breath, what happens? The heart, the lungs and diaphragm gradually calm down and their muscles ultimately, during a long deep silence, refrain from their otherwise constant motion. Thus the normal processes of decay are stopped throughout the system; then no more venous blood need be pumped by the heart into the lungs. When the heart does not pump blood, the lungs do not have to expand to receive oxygen; then the breath ceases to flow: you are temporarily living directly from Cosmic Energy entering through the medulla oblongata.
This explains what pratyahara is:
quote:
Death is simply involuntary complete relaxation. The medulla oblongata, through which life enters the human body, controls the heart. The heart, in turn, is the switch that controls all five sense telephones of sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell. Sensations cannot reach the brain of their own accord; the sensory messages from the eyes, nose, ears, skin and tongue are carried to the brain by the telephone wires of sensory nerves. When the jangling of incoming "calls" is stopped, thoughts do not arise, and when thoughts do not arise, associated memory thoughts do not bother the brain. When you sit upright, relaxed in the meditation posture, and practice Hong-Sau, the production of decay and waste is slowed down in the muscles and limbs. And as soon as, by the practice of this technique, energy is withdrawn from the sensory and motor nerves, muscles, limbs, and the heart, no sensory impressions can register on the switchboard of the brain to disturb the operator's attention and coax it to rouse thoughts. This is the time your attention is free to be concentrated upon problems, creative ideas, or God.
The other topic, which was commented on by "gumpi" is this:
quote:
The spiritual eye is not "scenery"! It is the door to samadhi. If nobody on AYP wants to be enlightened and liberated, then by all means continue your practices and ignore the scenery.
In the SRF Om meditation, one is supposed to concentrate on the light (not ignore it).
The Om meditation is similar to an AYP practice. You sit straight, rest your arms on a table and plug your ears with your thumbs. You gently press your eyes so they don't move and gaze at the third eye. Here is what it says about the light (which is the star):
quote:
Then you may see a few lights occasionally. If you do see any light, concentrate on it.
By learning to focus your eyes in this way and by concentrating on any light that you see, you are preparing to see the astral light of the spiritual eye--a luminous sun, with a dark round spot inside it and a star inside the dark spot.
...
With your eyes fixed in this position--or on the astral light that will appear through practice--mentally chant, "Om, Om"...
The instructions say to go on and listen through the right ear for sounds like the roar of the ocean, a great gong, hums, bumblebees etc. and you will eventually hear the Om.
I must admit that if AYP's deep silence is the breathlessness then I have never reached that. Further, the AYP practices say that the light is just scenery and to ignore it, yet, in Yogananda's Self Realization Fellowship lessons it plays an integral part of spiritual development.
A final point: Here is what the SRF claims that one attains by performing the "Om" meditation:
quote:
By meditating upon OM, the pure cosmic vibratory aspect of God in creation, and on God the Absolute Spirit beyond vibration, on can develop soul magnetism and spiritual vibratory magnetism. This magnetic force has limitless range and power. If morning, noon and night you keep yourself dreaming, feeling, and intuiting the all-attracting divine magnetism, you will develop a spiritual power that can draw desired objects from a distance, that can uplift others by the mere contact of sight, or even by your simple wish or your powerfully directed uplifting concentration. By this power you can draw friends from afar--those who have been real friends before. By this power you can make the elements bow to your wishes. By the invitation of the divine magnetism you can draw angels, the luminous creative forces, sages and saints of bygone eras on earth to come to you and dance in your inner temple of joy. By this divine magnetism you can draw the rays of all knowledge to come and sparkle and scintillate around your being.
So, there you go!
Time to meditate again
TI
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Kriya Yoga vs. AYP?
