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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 08 2008 : 2:42:15 PM
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I never really got into mantra meditation. My practice for a while simply consisted of bringing awareness to my breath, and if thoughts come up, letting them do their thing... bringing the same sort of "let it do its thang" awareness that I had with my breath to my thoughts.
With this, I've gotten to the point of "silence of the mind"... funny thing though, it's not what I used to think it is. I notice many think of meditation as "no thought", rather, it's "no attachment to thought" which leads to no thought (acceptance of is-ness is better maybe. of being-ness), no thought is a side effect (not a goal... it took me a while to actually experience this\realise it). Trust me, once you get there, your mind can be a ****-storm of thoughts, though it matters not. Which sorta leads one to think... what am I after? haha :)
So lately I've been trying a bit of "I am" mantra meditation after doing some spinal breathing. I'm finding it kinda weird in comparison to breath meditation. With the breath, I always have something to bring awareness to, and then I sometimes get to the point where my awareness becomes "silent", my thoughts might not be silent, nor my breath, though my mind is still.
I don't find I can do that with the mantra just yet. Like I'll say it in my mind, i'll let it fade away into silence, and then some thoughts might come up, i'll go back to the mantra... and repeat this process many times, though with this it seems like I'm going constantly between mantra awareness to thought awareness, rather than the constant awareness one can bring to the breath.
Do you guys immediatly bring back the mantra if more thoughts come up? I didn't really want to do this, cuz it seems I'd be fighting thoughts with the mantra rather than just allowing.
I guess I'm just sorta confused with the technique, with how the mantra is kept in mind. I reckon with diligent practice it'll come, just as it did with breath awareness, though it'd be cool to hear some of your pts of view :). thank you
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2008 : 08:53:13 AM
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Hi Diveineis,
Welcome to the forum.
quote:
Divineis wrote:
Do you guys immediatly bring back the mantra if more thoughts come up? I didn't really want to do this, cuz it seems I'd be fighting thoughts with the mantra rather than just allowing. I guess I'm just sorta confused with the technique, with how the mantra is kept in mind.
I never look at it as fighting. It is just gently favoring the mantra each time you realize you are not. It is a simple, effortless shift. There is no expectation that anything should happen a particular way. It is just the continual process of getting caught up in a tangle of thoughts and then returning to the mantra. All other thoughts have equal weight with each other.
Whenever you realize you are off the mantra, you go back to it. You let this process have whatever effect it will have. There is simply returning to the mantra everytime you realize you are not repeating it. You let the mantra do what it does. What ever experiences this may generate, you always favor the practice. There are no good meditations or bad meditations. The purpose is to reach ever increasing levels of inner silence and establish yourself as the silent witness.
quote:
Divineis wrote:
I reckon with diligent practice it'll come :). thank you
Yep. 
Best, yb.
PS: Checkout lesson #13 in the main lessons. And go to the topic index and look under mantra I AM.
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Edited by - yogibear on Mar 09 2008 09:17:13 AM |
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Nirodha
New Zealand
86 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2008 : 11:11:40 AM
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Hi Divineis,
From my years of experience, and that of others that I know, I've concluded that if one has an object of meditation that is working well for them - which seems to be the case with you and the breath - there's no need to confuse the issue by experimenting with others. Constantly switching objects of meditation seems to do little more than confuse the mind.
The point of any object of meditation is to tranquilize one's psychophysiology (mind and body) enough to allow one to enter Samadhi (meditative absorption). And, from there, bliss, wisdom, and eventually, Total Awakening arise.
One will read and hear all sorts proclamations about the power of this or that object of meditation versus others. Quite frankly, I feel that these proclamations are nothing more than religious dogma; as there have been many people that have become Enlightened using nothing more than the breath as a meditation object.
However, since the guru is in you, you know what's best for you and your particular situation. I'm just offering what my inner guru has taught me.
Kind regards
P.S. Just a little tip about dealing with straying: When you notice that it's happened, please just relax and release all tension from the mind and body, then expand your awareness to encompass the mind and body, and then return to your object of meditation. Please do this sequence as many times as necessary until you settle down. It works!
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Edited by - Nirodha on Mar 09 2008 1:32:27 PM |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2008 : 6:56:36 PM
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cool, thanks for the replies. I had already read lesson 13, though looking it over again cleared up my misconception. I was simply saying the mantra once and letting it go in silence... until more thoughts would come up, I missed the "gently repeat the mantra" part aha. Though simply this give great effect, I could feel myself moving a bit in silence, though I was a fair bit more distracted than my breath meditation since I'd go from having an object of meditation to just silence... which has yet to been greatly cultivated in me, and so it's hard to hold on to... or rather... not hold on to :) haha.
Thanks again. I think I'm gonna give the mantra stuff a try for a little, see how it goes. I'm a musician so the "sound" part of my brain is often very active, I reckon using sound as an object might be quite effective for me on my path :). If I can bring stillness to sound, I can do anything! haha
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UniversalMind
United Kingdom
28 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2008 : 06:45:43 AM
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It was interesting to read what Nirodha had to say on this subject...(many people that have become Enlightened using nothing more than the breath as a meditation).
At times when i am meditating the mantra stops and i become quite happy to sit and listen to my breath going in and out and i don't really want to start repeating the mantra again! The silence and stillnes is very satisfying. The strange thing i find is that if i try to start my meditation just listening to the breath etc, i cannot reach the level gained by mantra. Is it possible to start with the mantra and then just sit in silence? |
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Suryakant
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2008 : 10:10:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by UniversalMind
Is it possible to start with the mantra and then just sit in silence?
yes |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2008 : 2:59:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Nirodha
P.S. Just a little tip about dealing with straying: When you notice that it's happened, please just relax and release all tension from the mind and body, then expand your awareness to encompass the mind and body, and then return to your object of meditation. Please do this sequence as many times as necessary until you settle down. It works!
Very good advice, Nirodha! It's a method I use when I'm totally off track, speeding in my mind.
Another very, very useful tool I got from my qi gong training is to swing a tiny, tiny bit from left to right. If you sit in the "pillar" or hara line, a slight thought of moving a few millimeters right and left (which will also perhaps move your body just that much) will center you very quickly and bring you back to calmness and from there it's easier to gently favour the mantra again! |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2008 : 6:51:10 PM
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Hi Divineis,
Like you, I also started with breathing meditation, and when I came to AYP I had a hard time using a mantra. I still use the breath at times during my practices, as well as mantras at other times.
So the question is... why bother? If you are happy using the breath, and it is bringing good results, then why not stick with it.
Yogani has answered this question a number of times in the forum, and these are (if I remember rightly) the answers he has given:
1. That mantra meditation is more powerful than simply using the breath, as it has the added effect of a vibration which is designed to change the vibrational frequency of the subtle nervous system.
2. That mantra meditation brings the mind to silence faster that using the breath.
3. That when we enter deep states of samadhi, and loose consciousness of the physical body, we can keep using a mantra, when we could not keep using the breath.
It is obviously possible to get enlightened without using a mantra, but if Yogani is right, then it is a more effective and faster approach to use one.
If you are used to going to silence with the breath, and not with a mantra, then it will take time to get used to. Personally I feel the effect of the mantra when I use the Sree mantra in the first mantra enhancement. It directly activates the crown chakra. I have been in states of samadhi beyond body awareness (where the breath would be useless), but have not been using any mantra, so I can’t confirm its effectiveness at those subtle levels.
If Yogani is right, and mantra meditation is a more powerful tool and can take us further, faster.... then it must at least be worth investigating.
Could save you a few lifetimes.
Christi
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snake
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2008 : 05:29:19 AM
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| Im still not convinced that mantra is more effective than breath,maybe mantra works deeper but i cant get a nice relaxed feeling from mantra like i can from breath awareness and thats important to me as I am quite a stressed person and need to come out of meditation feeling relaxed and calm and mantra med just seems to be mentally stressing |
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AustrianYogi
Austria
31 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2008 : 06:47:50 AM
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Hello and Atma Namaste from Vienna, Austria!
Concentraton on the breath means concentration on the body; in this case, real deep meditation is impossible. In going ahead to the point, when breath disappears, deep meditation begins, and this works faster with mantra-meditation.
Nevertheless, to calm the body an initial concentration on the breath wil work, but why not replace it by spinal breathing? :-)
Andreas |
Edited by - AustrianYogi on Apr 08 2008 06:51:17 AM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2008 : 10:34:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by snake
Im still not convinced that mantra is more effective than breath,maybe mantra works deeper but i cant get a nice relaxed feeling from mantra like i can from breath awareness and thats important to me as I am quite a stressed person and need to come out of meditation feeling relaxed and calm and mantra med just seems to be mentally stressing
Hi Snake,
If you are not convinced if one is more effective than another, then perhaps measuring the time you can sit in one v. the other to the point where symptoms of over-doing appear, would be an accurate measure of potency of the form of meditation?
From my perspective, how much the method of meditation is purifying and releasing energy from thoughts and emotions in the nervous system would be a good measure of effectiveness. Observing people using different types of meditation, for example mindfulness v. mantra, will show you that mantra users need to practice far less to achieve results.
You mention that mantra seems to be mentally stressing, are you forcing your return to the mantra? Remember that it is easily coming back to the mantra when we notice we are off. The idea isn't to be on the mantra all the time during meditation, the idea is to easily come back from thoughts to the mantra when we notice we are away.
For me the aim in meditation isn't to achieve any particular state. Rather it is to stick to the practice of easily returning to the mantra when I notice I am off. So although I don't have the intent to feel relaxed during mantra meditation, this is almost always the result these days within an hour afterward and this feeling permeates almost the entire day. If I go-over in practices, then I don’t enjoy this benefit from practices.
If feeling relaxed during meditation is important to you to feel "unstressed" then perhaps thinking of relaxing the body and mind during the rest period or at the end of mantra meditation might work for you? During my rest period, I go through “a letting go” that is very relaxing and destressing.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2008 : 10:44:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by snake
Im still not convinced that mantra is more effective than breath,maybe mantra works deeper but i cant get a nice relaxed feeling from mantra like i can from breath awareness and thats important to me as I am quite a stressed person and need to come out of meditation feeling relaxed and calm and mantra med just seems to be mentally stressing
Hi Snake,
Mediation is not just for stress relief during those few mins you sit in meditation. It is a technique used to make every min of our life feel like the 20 mins of bliss you feel during meditation. The choice of course is yours... if the 20 mins of bliss is what you think will work for you then that is absolutely fine. And of course, finally any kind of meditation will take you within and bring that silence out into your every day life... so that you do feel bliss in every moment.
Well then why mantra?
In lesson Lesson 21 - Meditation Q&A – Objects of meditation Yogani says:
quote:
What is the difference between meditating with our technique using a
mantra, versus using chakras (energy centers in the body), a
religious icon or other physical objects? Again, it is a matter of
simplicity and efficiency. The goal is to bring the attention beyond
the thinking process, and, in doing so, take the attention beyond
outer sensory experience. The mind is the neurological process in us
that links consciousness with the outer world. It is a very intimate
connection. Our attention, engaged in the dynamics of the mind, is
always an inch away from experiencing the divine bliss of pure
consciousness. When the mind is allowed to come to rest, we are
there. So we begin with the mind, the most intimate connection to
bliss consciousness we have. We begin inside, so we can quickly and
easily go deeply inside. If we were to begin with a physical location
in the body or a physical object, we could still go deep. No question
about it. But it is a longer journey, a more complicated journey. The
further outside we are when we start, the more physical, intellectual
and emotional baggage we have to shed on the way in. This is also why
we do not verbally utter the mantra during meditation, or give any
attention to meanings while meditating. It is an inner process right
from the start. By beginning meditation with a thought, using the
specific procedure, we bypass external obstacles in the nervous
system that can bind our attention. Ultimately we dissolve them
naturally from the inside going out, rather than trying to dissolve
them from the outside going in, which is not easy.
We begin with a thought, not focusing on any meaning, just picking up
the repetition of the thought of the mantra's sound easily, on the
edge of letting go. We let the mantra go its own way naturally to
less and less – this is the simplest and most efficient way to dive
into the infinite sea of bliss consciousness within us. Having done
so repeatedly, we come back out after twenty minutes soaked with
peace and bliss, achieving much purification during the process.
In time, the distance between consciousness and outside experiences
evaporates as the obstructions become less and less. There was really
no distance at all! Then it becomes natural to experience many shades
of bliss consciousness while gazing upon chakras, religious icons,
our loved ones, beautiful landscapes, scriptures, or even a book on
theoretical physics. When bliss consciousness has arisen, everything
is seen in terms of that. But this is not the procedure of
meditation. This is enjoying the fruit of meditation – living life
with an increasing appreciation of its many gifts. The rise of this
appreciation inspires us all the more to carry on with our practice.
Also in this post Yogani says:
quote:
Breath is a good follower in deep meditation like that. It is not a good leader in meditation. When breath is leading we are doing pranayama, and that has a different purpose than meditation. Pranayama can be very pleasant, ecstatic even, but we do not want to confuse that with meditation. We also do plenty with pranayama in AYP in other parts of our sitting practice. It is an important practice. But meditation and pranayama are separate practices with separate purposes. Pranayama is for cultivating ecstatic conductivity in the nervous system. It also paves the way, preparing the ground for deep meditation which goes much deeper, cultivating our inner silence. So there are two purposes which have profound long term results if developed in that way. That is why Patanjali has these two elements as separate limbs in the eight limbs of yoga.
PS: I agree with what Andrew said above:
quote:
If feeling relaxed during meditation is important to you to feel "unstressed" then perhaps thinking of relaxing the body and mind during the rest period or at the end of mantra meditation might work for you? During my rest period, I go through “a letting go” that is very relaxing and destressing.
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Edited by - Shanti on Apr 08 2008 10:46:40 AM |
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snake
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2008 : 11:46:48 AM
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thankyou to you all for your considered replys.
I will give this another try maybe doing some pranayama 1st.
When i said mentally i felt stressed from the mantra I meant that i was repeating it all the time,so it was always in my head like an other thought rather than silence,I dont find it difficult to focus on the mantra but it seems to stay on the surface level unless im sleepy then i just seem to nod off,but ill give it another go. |
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breath vs. mantra
