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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 10 2008 : 2:48:50 PM
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| I'm not going to argue that point, but I'm curious about what makes it seem like kundalini to you? |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 10 2008 : 9:56:43 PM
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Fair question. I'll answer specifically if I can get some time in the next few days to go thru the book and pull out the more obviously kundalini-ish statements. Really, it's pretty super clear to me. It'd be a much shorter list to tally the things that make it NOT seem like kundalini!
Well, here's one thing that's new and interesting (give me a few paragraphs to set it up!)
In yoga, we pull kundalini up, and then let it do what it will. It's all very upward (though the body's innate intelligence will, in most cases, take care of distributing/dispersing it as the nadis clear). In Taoist practice, chi (I'm not talking about kundalini yet...just chi) is raised, then brought back down, in an orbit.
Bringing energy down is a whole other thing from taking it up. For men, it requires a very strong cultivation of female sexual energy, because it's a pulling rather than a pushing. See my postings here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=3296 , especially this:
quote:
Energy shoots up the spine like a phallic snake, thrusting through the gaping channel of spine toward ajna. If you try to move energy down the front channel in similar fashion, you'll find it frustratingly ineffective. While energy up the spine manifests as a phallic thrust, energy down the front manifests as a more passive vaginal suck. In the back, a thrust from root pushes to pierce and penetrate ajna. In the front, a sucking from root cajoles, entices, and pulls energy down the front.
and here:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=2939
The same issue was also noticed by Keith, the guy who wrote the page we both like at http://www.precisiondocs.com/~altaoism/kunlun.htm
In another page (at http://www.precisiondocs.com/~altao...irFields.htm ) he writes this:
quote:
Often the receptivity and openness that is needed to get the most out of the front vessel is missed. For most people, it's a more familiar sensation to let the substantial yang flow of the back vessel simply continue on to run over the top and down the front; the front vessel gets run by the momentum of the back vessel. Big mistake. You'll get next to nothing out of the microcosmic orbit this way.
Max alludes in his book, but clearly states in the video on his site, that this practice is much easier for women than for men; and that most men can't go far with it without the support of women practicing around them. Women, however, require no help from men at all. I think he's refering to the same issue. I suspect kunlun, in and of itself, makes the yin more accessible, and Max's "learn from women" tack picks up the slack.
So....what's new (both for taoists and for yogis) in Max's practice is:
1. Max is trying to resolve the dilemma of men trying to come to grips with their yin front channels.
2. instead of working at completing orbits with chi, orbits are loaded with kundalini. That's a very new and esoteric thing for Taoists, who don't have reference to kundalini in their literature (though Chia, a modernist with yoga training, sometimes mentions it, though doesn't, to my knowledge, teach ways of working with it). This is one reason many Taoist practitioners are finding kunlun so fresh a sensation. That's not regular old chi....
Another new thing is how kunlun, according to Max, rapidly delivers some of the later stages talked about in yoga. If he's correct, it shortcuts from kundalini awakening to samadhi to what the yogis refer to as merging of Shiva and Shakti. Max writes:
quote:
During Kunlun level one, breathing becomes less and less and eventually ceases as the sun and moon channels energeticallyh collapse. When this occurs, the central channel activates and opens one up to a pure magnetic reality".
The breathing thing is samadhi. And sun and moon channels are directly analagous to Shakti and Shiva (and front and back...and yin and yang). Those who think I've completely digressed into Taoist esoterica should bear in mind that 'yoga' means sun/moon! The more I learn about Yoga, and the more I learn about Taoist practices, the more I realize they're the exact same thing, though with different emphases.
I don't in any way shortchange this shortcut. If it works, it's a huge, huge thing. It's possible - again, if it works - that this is indeed a much faster way than yoga. But I like yoga. And kunlun definitely involves crown, and as an AYP stalwart, I just don't go there. I suspect the crown element accounts for the different nature and flow of the energy some students report to distinguish it from kundalini.
Again, I'll try to find time to back up my point that kunlun is all about kundalini. I think you were right a few posts ago when you said that the people insisting this isn't about kundalini are people who don't know kundalini. I'm not sure Max himself draws that distinction...it may come from Chris, the editor/disciple/handler.
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Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 11 2008 12:11:15 AM |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2008 : 02:43:27 AM
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Jim,
quote:
Fair question. I'll answer specifically if I can get some time in the next few days to go thru the book and pull out the more obviously kundalini-ish statements. Really, it's pretty super clear to me. It'd be a much shorter list to tally the things that make it NOT seem like kundalini!
Sounds good. I look forward to seeing what you think.
When I made the statement that kunlun utilizes a different energy than kundalini, it was based off of a few practice sessions. Now I've had a few more so I can comment even more on it...
The way that the alchemical tao website description describes kunlun energy is spot on - cool, rich, unaroused, healing and nourishing. The specific energy seems to be generated by the spontaneous shaking of the legs, and not as a dormant energy contained somewhere near the root chakra. That is why I say they are two separate things.
When the specific kunlun energy is generated and allowed to work through the body (by letting go), it seems to harmoniously open every energy channel the body has.
Of course kundalini is going to be activated by opening all of the body's energy channels...especially since the practice is tantric, where the practitioner blends heaven and earth, fire and water, or shiva and shakti. So for me, during practice the inner heat gets activated.
I think this heat, or the "blissful fire" that the book discusses, might be kundalini. Except here is a difference I've noticed: with AYP, for me, the fire was moved upwards to the third eye and it was hard to bring it back down. With kunlun, the fire is mixed with water (cooling sensations) in the torso (heart down to lower abdomen).
Kundalini is not just heat sensations in the body, though. The heat is a side effect of kundalini purifying the body. To explain more of what I mean: a person can get sick and develop a fever, yet it'd be wrong to say that the heat caused by sickness is kundalini. So when there are two tantric practices which involve heat, it's also just as wrong. Maybe the heat (side effect of purification, and not necessarily a direct effect of kundalini) is brought about by a different sort of energy? I'm not necessarily saying it is so, but it's something to think about.
So how do we know what's what? To discern that kundalini has actually been awakened, aside from symptoms of purification, is shifts in consciousness. The merging of shiva and shakti is a sign that kundalini is truly awakened...and in the kunlun "tradition" this state is definitely reached. They call it the death experience.
So..haha..yea..to sum it up from my point of view - the kunlun level 1 practice generates a certain vibration which passes through the body, awakening it, and invariably awakening the kundalini...but in a harmonious and natural way.
But maybe I'm wrong regarding my conclusion! I've only been doing kunlun for a little over a week, and as we all know, internal practices take a while to reach fruition.
quote:
So....what's new (both for taoists and for yogis) in Max's practice is:
1. Max is trying to resolve the dilemma of men trying to come to grips with their yin front channels.
I don't know if it's Max exactly who is trying to resolve the issue, but it seems that by teaching the practice he may be doing so. I think you're right that it's new for both taoists and yogis - the front channel is tough for men. We pursue and seek out by nature. We hunt for the goal. We are active in our enlightenment...and to open the front channel in yoga we would have to make our nature somewhat passive, which it is not. We would have to fully surrender!
quote:
Another new thing is how kunlun, according to Max, rapidly delivers some of the later stages talked about in yoga. If he's correct, it shortcuts from kundalini awakening to samadhi to what the yogis refer to as merging of Shiva and Shakti. Max writes:
quote:
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During Kunlun level one, breathing becomes less and less and eventually ceases as the sun and moon channels energeticallyh collapse. When this occurs, the central channel activates and opens one up to a pure magnetic reality".
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The breathing thing is samadhi. And sun and moon channels are directly analagous to Shakti and Shiva (and front and back...and yin and yang). Those who think I've completely digressed into Taoist esoterica should bear in mind that 'yoga' means sun/moon! The more I learn about Yoga, and the more I learn about Taoist practices, the more I realize they're the exact same thing, though with different emphases.
I don't think that the kunlun practice does this rapidly is so new. There are many practices which get you there rapidly...AYP definitely being one! What's new is that kunlun seems to do it in a more harmonious way.
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I don't in any way shortchange this shortcut. If it works, it's a huge, huge thing. It's possible - again, if it works - that this is indeed a much faster way than yoga. But I like yoga.
I'd say AYP is just as fast. The only reason why kunlun might be faster is that the negative side effects may be toned down due to the harmonious nature of the practice, so that one can push forward faster and not be so worried of going overboard.
I completely respect you wanting to stay with yoga. It's good to follow through with what you've started...and AYP is no joke!
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And kunlun definitely involves crown, and as an AYP stalwart, I just don't go there. I suspect the crown element accounts for the different nature and flow of the energy some students report to distinguish it from kundalini.
I don't see how level 1 involves the crown at all...besides the advice to smile? |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2008 : 11:10:46 AM
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I sort of hit a dead end above, mostly due to terminology. Let me try again, in response to your insightful and extremely useful posting. Hopefully this will jibe better with yoga, with taoist practice, and with your specific experience.
quote:
Originally posted by Scott
The way that the alchemical tao website description describes kunlun energy is spot on - cool, rich, unaroused, healing and nourishing. The specific energy seems to be generated by the spontaneous shaking of the legs, and not as a dormant energy contained somewhere near the root chakra. That is why I say they are two separate things.
The experience of yin/front-of-the-body/shiva/moon/water is indeed cool, rich, unaroused, healing and nourishing. I'm starting to experience that as I experience grounding, and it's been confirmed by other writers (e.g. Michael Winn, who started as a kundalini yogi). I experience it as "kundalini coming down the front" or "kundalini finding grounding". This disjoints with yoga. So let me stop over-using (misusing?) the term "kundalini".
It seems that kunlun matches yang back-of-the-body/sun/fire/Shakti in balance with yin/front-of-the-body/shiva/moon/water. In AYP this "union of shiva and shakti" takes place only after each half is cultivated separately. It's the ultimate stage of AYP.
Max, you, and other practitioners describe a combination of penetrating, purifying, heating, firey energy and cooling, nourishing, watery "energy". The penetrating, purifying, heating, "firey" thing can only be one thing: kundalini. No doubt in my mind. The "other thing", the energy that does not seem like kundalini, yoga would say isn't energy at all, but pure bliss consciousness. Shiva. The grounding of Kundalini.
In some systems of yoga, Shiva is not perceived to move. AYP is different. See lesson #69, where Yogani writes:
quote:
The answer to this is to get Shiva off his butt and doing something.
He has to get off his lofty perch and "get down" with Shakti wherever
she may be in the body, which is everywhere once she is awake and
coming up. While their union may finally end up somewhere "up there,"
Shiva and Shakti must be brought together everywhere in the body
first. If this is done, some craziness may still be there, but it
will be the craziness of the ecstatic union of Shiva and Shakti going
on in every nerve and cell in the body, rather than the blistering
chaos of Shakti's energy alone burning through everything it meets,
all of which is in your body.
These are, of course, all metaphors. All the terms we're using. But the purifying, penetrating, firey energy needn't be considered a different energy for from the cool, nourishing element. The latter can be seen as grounding (to Taoists) or as shiva (to the Yogis. That grounding of energy can itself seem energetic is not the contradiction it seems. Yin begets yang begets ying, after all.
quote:
Originally posted by ScottWhen the specific kunlun energy is generated and allowed to work through the body (by letting go), it seems to harmoniously open every energy channel the body has.
That's precisely the action and function of kundalini.
quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Of course kundalini is going to be activated by opening all of the body's energy channels
I'd say that's backwards, but I'm quibbling!
quote:
Originally posted by Scott
I think this heat, or the "blissful fire" that the book discusses, might be kundalini. Except here is a difference I've noticed: with AYP, for me, the fire was moved upwards to the third eye and it was hard to bring it back down. With kunlun, the fire is mixed with water (cooling sensations) in the torso (heart down to lower abdomen).
That confirms what I'm saying above. Kunlun seems to achieve a balance of yin/shiva/front-of-the-body/moon/water and yang/Shakti/back-of-the-body/sun/fire from the get-go. This is a remarkable thing, btw. The ancient rishis surely would have embraced a way to arouse kundalini in a balanced way if they knew one. They concluded that the only way is to take the fire path upward and then await integration. I guess they never hit upon this particular little move.
So....why not jump from yoga into kunlun practice? 1. it opens crown, and dramatic premature crown awakenings seem to be risky, 2. yoga is a full-fledged practice backed by centuries of experience and literature, whereas, at least for now, Kunlun has only Max's somewhat cheesey little book. He didn't invent the practice...it's ancient from certain monasteries in China. So it may be that more data and detail eventually comes to light. But for now, it's kind of flimsy, if promising.
quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Kundalini is not just heat sensations in the body, though. The heat is a side effect of kundalini purifying the body. To explain more of what I mean: a person can get sick and develop a fever, yet it'd be wrong to say that the heat caused by sickness is kundalini. So when there are two tantric practices which involve heat, it's also just as wrong. Maybe the heat (side effect of purification, and not necessarily a direct effect of kundalini) is brought about by a different sort of energy? I'm not necessarily saying it is so, but it's something to think about.
Heat in spiritual work (at least at our stages) is generated by the friction of energy passing through obstructions. Greater heat comes from a greater intensity of energy. That's about it. You're correct that it's "generic" and the quality of "heat" doesn't belong to any one energy. But nothing you've said dissuades my conclusion that kunlun deals in kundalini energy.
quote:
Originally posted by Scott
So how do we know what's what? To discern that kundalini has actually been awakened, aside from symptoms of purification, is shifts in consciousness. The merging of shiva and shakti is a sign that kundalini is truly awakened...and in the kunlun "tradition" this state is definitely reached. They call it the death experience.
I think you're off on the yoga part. Silence (Shiva) and Kundalini (Shakti) are cultivated separately, and it's a long process before they both reach fruition and then unite. In fact, that's the entire journey of AYP. And it takes years. From lesson 169:
quote:
When kundalini begins to awaken, the inner
union, the marriage of our divine polarities, is in the offing. It
could take only a few years, or many years, for the process to
complete itself, depending on the remaining obstructions in our
nervous system, and the degree of dedication we have in our daily
practices. And where will it lead? Union is freedom in unending
ecstatic bliss and divine love, of course.
Moving on....
quote:
Originally posted by Scott
So..haha..yea..to sum it up from my point of view - the kunlun level 1 practice generates a certain vibration which passes through the body, awakening it, and invariably awakening the kundalini...but in a harmonious and natural way.
I don't think we're disagreeing in any meaningful way.
quote:
Originally posted by Scott
I don't think that the kunlun practice does this rapidly is so new. There are many practices which get you there rapidly...AYP definitely being one! What's new is that kunlun seems to do it in a more harmonious way.
AYP is among the most rapid yogic method. But yoga deals with three steps separately: cultivate silence to attain samadhi, cultivate energy to attain shakti awakening, and then await union of shakti/shiva. These are separate but related processes, achieved via one inexorable, innate process of evolution in the human nervous system. In kunlun, they seem to happen simultaneously....integrated from the get-go, and that's definitely a shortcut not found in yoga, generally, or AYP, specifically. And this integration seems to be near-immediate. But, again, the shortcut may not be without risk. Yoga can be done quickly, if you're willingly to put yourself at tremendous risk and possibly fry yourself to a crisp. That's why we pace...to find the "sweet spot" between no progress and overdoing. At any rate, kunlun is only .000001% as understood, documented, and experienced at this point. I'd give it a century or two! 
quote:
Originally posted by Scott
I don't see how level 1 involves the crown at all...besides the advice to smile?
I could be wrong, and this is something that you, as you practice, will be better able to shed light on. But in the book Max references several times the fundamental importance of crown. Or at least I so recall. I'll try to leaf through again.
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Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 11 2008 8:01:26 PM |
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matangi
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2008 : 11:16:09 AM
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Scott, thanks for sharing your experiences with kunlun practice.
Since kunlun was introduced in some threads here I did some of my own searching. This may be of interest to you. The thread is all over the place but there are spots where the focus is on managing excess heat and also thinking level 1 kunlun generates lots of energy in the head.
http://www.thetaobums.com/lofiversi...p/t3646.html
In other kunlun-related threads on the same site I read even more intense discussion about managing the heat, sleeping reduced to 3-4 hours nightly, and practicers dealing with quite a bit of irritability. I wasn't sincerely thinking of trying kunlun at this point (I enjoy the ayp practices) but some of what I read gave me the sense that kunlun is energy heavy. I don't need that so I am pretty well convinced that I'll remain a curious observer of others practicing kunlun. (I'm still fine tuning my own proclivity for energy overload. It's getting better though.)
I still enjoy learning from others so please keep sharing!
-m |
Edited by - matangi on Feb 11 2008 11:20:00 AM |
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atena
113 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2008 : 12:49:59 PM
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| One interesting thing with kunlun. In 'Pillars of bliss' -book there is a chapter about sexual energy and its relation to kunlun. There is a chi lock -technique suggested. You are supposed to draw the sexual energy upwards to the crown which brings this question is kunlun really incompatible with other upward fire -type of kundalini practices? I'm not sure. |
Edited by - atena on Feb 11 2008 1:07:22 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2008 : 2:29:34 PM
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| One more thing...actually, I may have mispoke when I said that this is a Chinese practice with long history. The part about testing your kunlun abilities by seeing if you can dry wet cloths in the dead of winter via body heat alone is lifted completely from Tummo (which is Tibetan) without explanation. So Max is doing some mixing and matching.....though who knows how much. I really doubt, too, that previous practitioners have taught it to women, so that's likely another new element. |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2008 : 5:51:08 PM
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Hey, Scott, I was curious if you used sound with your kunlun practice. There are some that state that this increases Pai-hui or niwan (a word of caution: Do not listen to these frequencies if one is pregnant or prone to seizures, the author notes):
quote:
I have developed a brainwave entrainment track for Kunlun. It is based on the Schumann Resonance, the natural frequency of the Earth's magnetic field. It tracks you down from beta to 7.83hz, the same frequency the Earth vibrates. This frequency has been proven to increase human growth hormones, increase blood flow to the brain, and is the most prominent brainwave reported during out of body experiences and other paranormal phenomena.
http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php...ic=4551&st=0
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on Feb 11 2008 6:05:13 PM |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2008 : 6:02:41 PM
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| I don't use sound with the practice, and wouldn't recommend doing so to anyone. |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2008 : 12:46:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by matangi
In other kunlun-related threads on the same site I read even more intense discussion about managing the heat, sleeping reduced to 3-4 hours nightly, and practicers dealing with quite a bit of irritability.
Do they consciously force themselves to only reduce their sleeping to 3-4 hours (i.e. using an alarm clock) or do they naturally at some point only need 3-4 hours of sleep then wake up fully rested all day long ?
Albert |
Edited by - selfonlypath on Feb 13 2008 03:00:11 AM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2008 : 5:13:43 PM
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Scott, since you're brave enough to try this out and generous enough to share your experiences, which are incredibly useful for the rest of us (our very own resident intrepid explorer!!), the least I could do is take an hour to fulfill your request to dig up evidence from Max's book that kunlun is about kundalini.
You and other practitioners describe two contrasting experiences from kunlun. One is firey and purifying (which I believe to be obvious kundalini), and the other is more mysterious: cool and nourishing. Per my previous posting, the cool/nourishing part sounds precisely like what yogis call Shiva, and AYP calls bliss consciousness. It's not an energy so much as a grounding of energy. Both Yogis and Taoists agree that they are two sides of the same coin. Indeed, the way you've described and contrasted each of the two facets makes them seem, on sum, a perfectly integrated whole, no?
Max talks a lot about magnetism...of contrary poles. The first thing we learn about electro-magnetism is that it requires two poles - active and grounding. They appear to be opposite sorts of flow, but it's all the same stream. Think Tao, think the yin/yang symbol. Same in yoga, though it's expressed more abstractly, with the imagery of shiva and shakti. Less abstract, though is that yoga literally means "sun/moon". That's where Taoism sprung from, I guess!
Saying this is about kundalini doesn't amount to a "debunking" of kunlun. Quite the contrary. If kunlun integrates, from the get-go, ecstatic conductivity (active kundalini, i.e. shakti) and bliss consciousness (grounding silence, i.e. Shiva), that is a huge thing. Yoga does it all separately, with each leg taking ample time. And the fact that you seem quite clear and level-headed in your postings in this discussion and elsewhere bode well for the possibility that the danger factor may be low (we're all pulling for you, in any case!).
I'll pull out some excerpts on this from the book that lead me to believe the energetic portion is clearly kundalini, and that the "other thing" is silence, shiva, the grounding of that energy. While I'm at it, I'll also, per your query, watch out for mention of kunlun's crown opening (which AYP warns may be dangerous if premature).
quote:
max wrote:
"This method is a very old "root" practice that has its variations in some of the earth's oldest mystery schools."
"Root" is placed in different places in the body by different traditions, but the term "root" is used to describe the source of kundalini in yoga.
quote:
max wrote:
"the dogens of africa filled their bodies with the power of "na-Um", the power of the fiery serpent"
and...
quote:
max wrote:
"The clans which i have been affiliated with...have been in various forms of the snake clan"
Serpent imagery describes kundalini awakening in a number of traditions.
quote:
max wrote:
"[This art] allows the merging of the microcosm (the universe within) and the macrocosm (the unvierse outside oneself). The union of these two worlds allows activation of the bliss body, and through this bliss body, or dragon body, re-enlightenment [Max's term for enlightenment] is possible to the average person."
That would be recognizable to any yogi as shiva and shakti, silent bliss and ecstatic kundalini.
quote:
max wrote:
"When we realize this great potential a golden blissful nectar fils us to over-abundance. This energy (the sweet elixir of immortablity) flows up the spine and from the third eye, the inner soma drips down our throats"
Compare to AYP lesson 133:
quote:
YOGANI wrote:
"The biology of kundalini involves sexual essences going up the spine,
and also through the digestive system and other channels. Then, in
the brain, there is a process that brings the nectar down into the
digestive system via the front passage mentioned, where it is
reprocessed and sent up again"
Moving on...
quote:
max wrote:
"Practicing...regularly will purify the entire body as the 72,000 nerves, called nadis, are toned and cleared by the psychic heat generated."
that's kundalini yoga 101
quote:
max wrote:
"Kunlun is a magnetic potential that is created bewteen heaven and earth, heaven being the earth, and the earth being the naval area....when we activate the dormant bliss through our practice, a polarity field is created between these opposing poles"
Taoists put the source of all vital energy/chi/prana at the navel, not the mulha. It's a difference, but not particularly significant. Anyway, he's clearly refering to shiva/shakti - hot/firey energy versus cool/nourishing "energy". There's no diff between what he's saying and what I've said above about both being poles of the same thing, and that kundalini is united with the grounding of kundalini, i.e. the opposite pole.
quote:
max wrote:
"the most powerful energy within the body...is the glandular secretioun of the sexual organs...if we can harnass this untapped form of inner energy, refine it, and flow it magnetically upwards to the brain's dormat centers, we could all self awaken"
Kundalini 101. Kundalini does start from sexual energy.
quote:
max wrote:
"Once you have collected the necessary [sexual] energy to reach "critical mass", it will flow upwards to the dormant head centers, and activate tne ni-wan, otherwise known as the secret squre inch located in the center of the brain.
Classic yoga/tantra. sexual energy is pulled up the spine, activating as it goes, until it activates crown (woops...there's crown!)
Max then describes a sexual conservation method identical to AYP's "holdback" method. i won't quote it.
moving on....
quote:
max wrote:
"Kunlun increases the amount of ching-chi produced for use by the brain. Usually when the white semen turns clear, the semen usually dries out and is absorbed from the testes directly by the mechanics of the brain, so that this nucllear material can help the dormant parts of the brain to awaken"
Kundalini 101
quote:
max wrote:
"I have found that women who do level 1 will probably experience the more blissful forms of ecstatic awakenings, bot by themselves and with a partner"
Remarkable parallel to AYP. Yogani uses "bliss" to connote shiva/silence, and "ecstacy" to connote kundalini/shakti/energy. max is recognizing that women are better able to manfiest the former. It is (as you and I have discussed above) harder for men to access the receptive grounding facet. You can't thrust with shiva/silence.
quote:
max wrote:
"the magnetic potential of heaven (your head area) is uniting with earth (the lower spinal centers)"
"Heaven" in Taoism is equivalent to "crown" in yoga. Shiva rests in the crown. This "uniting" is a classic and explicit account of uniting shiva and shakti...the final stage of AYP. In yoga, each is done separately, and it takes years.
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max wrote:
"Resultant Manifestations of Level 1 (but don't look for them to happen): blissful heat and body trembling (this usually happens first)"
Kundalini, baby!
quote:
max wrote:
"the back arches, and the head is thrown back"
Kundalini, baby!
quote:
max wrote:
"[male practitioners] have connected with the "inner" consort, dakini, or female essence within yourself"
United shakti/shiva
quote:
max wrote:
"your heart beat and breathing stills"
Ah! Ok, here we've really come to that "other thing". This has nothing to do with kundalini. This is Silence. Samadhi. Shiva. You do not usually hear about this in the same breath as the kundalini stuff.
quote:
max wrote:
"generation of blissful heat arising from the belly to the top of the head"
Kundalini, though, again, the taoists place the resting place/source at navel rather than mulha.
quote:
max wrote:
"along with a sunburn-like feeling at the top of the crown"
crown!
quote:
max wrote:
"Your head may change shape slightly...the crown may develop a ridge and large bump....this means the crown has opened up"
er...CROWN!
quote:
max wrote:
"Level two allows the experience of the consort within ourselves...teh energetic unjion of the male and female polarity. The is the inner mixing of fire and water, gbetter known as the...merging of yin and yang."
shiva/shakti. Kundalini plus the grounding of kundalini. Firey pole, watery pole. Same as in yoga, only in yoga it takes many years (lifetimes?).
I'll stop here, because it's obvious. The firey upward energy is kundalini. The cooling, quieting effect is Shiva. And he's describing the unification of the two. whether it truly happens, and how one is left, remains to be seen. Please don't stop reporting back!!! |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 14 2008 12:22:58 AM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2008 : 5:34:51 PM
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Hi :)
Very nice analysis Jim. :)
If I could add something it would be this:
Here is a quote from Charles Luk's "Taoist Yoga - Alchemy & Immortality"
On page 171 it says this:
"This is the method of uniting the five vitalities in the heart, spleen, lungs, liver and kidneys into a single vitality which will then rise from the base of the spine and pass through the second gate (between the kidneys) and the back of the head to reach the brain (ni wan) and thrust through the original cavity of the spirit (tsu Ch'iao between and behind the eyes) to knock at the source of the nervous system (pai Hui).
The practiser should look up quickly in order to force open the heavenly gate (at the top of the skull); this consists of opening the eyes to look up (and so give a) thrust to burst open the gate with the combined force of the heart, intellect and thought.
If the five vitalities are full a golden light will soar up to unite with the light of (essential) nature to become a single light which is the union of the radiant vitality of the positive principle (yang) in the head and the bright light of the negative principle (yin) in the abdomen into one single light which will result in the egress from the immortal foetus".
Taoism sounds like kundalini to me. Kunlun is not so far from Taoism.
:)
TI |
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Nilsa
5 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2008 : 11:11:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott
So, I ordered the book, "Pillars of Bliss". To be honest I am not impressed at all with the book. It's not something to read and gain any information on. The only useful part is regarding the actual practice...which could just be written online, and the reader could be spared the introduction and everything...but from what I know, the guys who wrote the book don't want that done (we all need to make a living somehow). I will respect their wishes, and allow anyone interested to buy the book.
The past couple of weeks I made sure to tone down my practices, so that I could try this new one, since you aren't supposed to mix kundalini and kunlun. So I stopped sitting cross legged, and meditating for a while...and I have felt quite grounded.
I did the kunlun level 1 practice just a couple of hours ago and it is effective. I assumed the posture, put on a cd that I like (to measure the time, and also because it's boring to sit there for an hour) ((by the way, the cd was the Jayhawks - Rainy Day Music...I highly recommend it)), then I waited for like 10 minutes. Pretty soon, my left leg started to get a little bounce in it. I made sure not to influence it, and just let it bounce. It started bouncing up and down intensely. Then after a few minutes the right leg began to bounce...and both were bouncing like crazy. Very fast! I just sat there, letting the legs bounce and remaning in the posture. Then after I don't know how long, maybe 15 minutes of bouncing, they seemed to almost abruptly stop, and at that time energy came up through the legs and into my perineum, then surged through the rest of the body. It felt somewhat invigorating, but I didn't really notice any mental changes immediately.
The legs started up again, and I felt inner heat in my right middle finger, and after another approximate 15 minutes, the legs stopped and the same energy thing occurred...but this time it seemed to shift the consciousness slightly, so that it was a very low level of samadhi. After that, I did the grounding exercise as recommended in the book, and here I am!
So, I am new to this practice but it seems nice already. I'll keep going at it, and maybe write up some updates if it gets more interesting.
Hi Scott
I also ordered the book and been practicing since a week. My legs wont bounce, I sense the direction in which the energy will move coming to
my chest, the it starts and it changes direction, stops and starts again...funny |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2008 : 3:00:17 PM
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Hey Nilsa,
From what I understand, just go into the posture described in the book and surrender to whatever happens. Sounds like you're already doing that, so everything is probably working as it should. I think going to a seminar would be the best bet to see how to do the practice in the most correct way. |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2008 : 4:26:21 PM
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Jim,
quote:
You and other practitioners describe two contrasting experiences from kunlun. One is firey and purifying (which I believe to be obvious kundalini), and the other is more mysterious: cool and nourishing. Per my previous posting, the cool/nourishing part sounds precisely like what yogis call Shiva, and AYP calls bliss consciousness. It's not an energy so much as a grounding of energy. Both Yogis and Taoists agree that they are two sides of the same coin. Indeed, the way you've described and contrasted each of the two facets makes them seem, on sum, a perfectly integrated whole, no?
I will need more practice before I can say clearly what is what...but I already believe that you're oversimplifying the matter here. I do not think that the cool energy is shiva, or grounding...or that the hot energy is all shakti and bhakti.
I had a pretty significant kundalini awakening as a result of the kunlun practice a few days ago. I can't say for sure whether this is what kunlun would do for everyone, or if it's just because my kundalini was awakened previously. So I'm not going to say!
What I will say is this - people often mistake strange bodily sensations for kundalini when that is not so. It's not as simple as a tingle in your spine, as I'm sure you can attest to, Jim. I also don't think it's as simple as heat rising up the spine. Kundalini is unbounded consciousness moving through the body. This is most understood when yoga practices have reached fruition, in samadhi. When the energies being awakened and the stillness of the present moment come forth together, in one experience where the breath stops and the awareness becomes extra powerful and shocks the mind so that it grasps at nothing. Ehh, it's hard to describe. A better way to describe it would be that God descends through the body and shakes your brain so that you wake up here and now...but then that's even more confusing I guess...
Sometimes you say that in yoga it's a long path that requires years of separately cultivating shiva and shakti. This hasn't been my experience in yoga at all. My success came about by mixing the two into one practice, and it's not so hard and doesn't take so long. A few years maybe, but not many. At least to reach the "stream winners" level.
In fact, the more I think about it, the more it seems that shiva and shakti CAN'T be cultivated separately. To do so would limit the true power of each. Without the energetic awakening, silence is misunderstood. Without silence, the energies aren't actually awakened.
Sure, we know kundalini signs and symptoms...but I really think those are the byproduct of the internal tantra...or at least when they're manifested on subtler levels (like just experiencing heat), it's just a mimicking of the internal tantra. The actual experience of the internal tantra is more shocking than sensations in the body...it changes your mind.
quote:
quote: max wrote:
"your heart beat and breathing stills"
Ah! Ok, here we've really come to that "other thing". This has nothing to do with kundalini. This is Silence. Samadhi. Shiva. You do not usually hear about this in the same breath as the kundalini stuff.
On the contrary I think it has everything to do with kundalini. In my experience, this state is the union of shiva and shakti.
quote:
I'll stop here, because it's obvious. The firey upward energy is kundalini. The cooling, quieting effect is Shiva. And he's describing the unification of the two. whether it truly happens, and how one is left, remains to be seen. Please don't stop reporting back!!!
It does seem obvious. But then what are the cool sensations which rise upwards?
I was wondering about the crown in regard to level 1 practice, since it seems to avoid the crown entirely. Level 2 is where I could see the crown beginning to become involved. I am going to maintain my position that level 1 does nothing with the crown.
...Sorry if my reply is kind of spacey...I'm about to pass out, due to jet lag. |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2008 : 6:35:16 PM
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quote:
Scott: But then what are the cool sensations which rise upwards?
Scott, this is something that may be of practical use, since I know what you are talking about and combined these two when I was younger.
From what I can remember, the coolness and warmness are both your breath. The reason that you may not perceive the warmness is that you need to actively produce this warmness. The warmness is active and the perceived coolness is receptive. The coolness will rise on its own, but again, the warmness you have to produce by breath control/manipulation. This is the fire on a physical level that you may or may not know that you possess.
I think the reason that you're now feeling the coolness is that your breath is moving into your nervous system and you're able to feel it rising on each subsequent inhale/exhale. Actually, percieved by the nervous system, moving from the respiratory to the circulitory system. Yeah, that's got to be it, since there is water around the heart.
Anyway, this is what worked for me:
1. Get yourself into a meditative state. I did this naturally upon waking up when I was younger. So maybe this would be a good time for you, since the sexual impulse is heightened at this time. And there is a definite connection to this. It must be what they consider earth or the base chakra.
- When you are in this state of consciousness the cool sensations seem amplified by your perception, although they're not. They only appear so, since you are in a more receptive state. Anyway, you don't need to do anything with these cool sensations. They are receptive. DO NOT focus on the sensations, since they will dissipate or stay the same. Merely witness/or observe them and put your focus on your breath.
2. Your breath is cool, normally, so you need to warm it up. What I did was purse my lips and draw the breath over the tongue and exhale slowly through the nostrils.
- At this point you will notice that the warmness will be felt in the upper chest, as it moves downward and the coolness will become more and more apparent, as it naturally rises toward the center of the chest to meet the warmness of your inhale. It will transform in what can only be described as water. This may require a lot of practice to become proficient.
- As you become more aware, you will feel these water sensations or cool prick-lings that will begin to draw from all sides of your chest, almost like the feeling like it's being sucked into toward your heart. (An internal itching may also be present in the center of the chest).
- It will happen fast, at this point, since there will be a point of no return. The water sensation will pool to the center of the heart like a torrent and produce a feeling of hardness. It's definitely sexual. Focus on this area.
4. When this hardness is felt, immediately expel your breath through your nostrils. (You'll know it when it happens).
5. You will have a heart orgasm. You may also have a simultaneous groin orgasm too. At this point the breath has broken the hardness and the water sensation will explode throughout your body.
- These energies (earth/air/fire and water) have combined at this point on a mental/physical level by concentration.
Physical perception:
Earth: Location of the sexual Impulse that drives the method.
Air: Inhale/Exhale: Breath
Mental perception of the same breath:
Fire: Inhale (warm)
Water: Exhale (cool)
I think that must be it or something along those lines.
Anyway, I hope that this will help:
VIL
P.S. When I mentioned this childhood experience a long time ago, why didn't any of you people tell me that it was combining shiva/shakti? LOL. I was like, "Huh, no kidding". LOL. |
Edited by - VIL on Feb 16 2008 9:19:20 PM |
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Nilsa
5 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2008 : 7:27:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Hey Nilsa,
From what I understand, just go into the posture described in the book and surrender to whatever happens. Sounds like you're already doing that, so everything is probably working as it should. I think going to a seminar would be the best bet to see how to do the practice in the most correct way.
Thanks Scott
Im keeping the posture all the way even when the shaking, twisting and turning gets strong, my legs move as a result from the rest.
Well I would love to go to a seminar but am in Switzerland, and we are not in the tour dates ... yet |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2008 : 09:37:07 AM
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Also, Scott, once this happens you have reached the mineral kingdom or will know interconnectiveness with all things. Some call this the realization of 'I am that'. You will forget your physical self and will be at one with everything becoming the nature of an outside object and will witness sexual/blissful/magnetism.
You have split the stone.
This is the true philosopher's stone that Hermes Trisimegistus speaks about or the perception of the constituents of dryness, coolness, moisture, et al, combining these things within the body into a hardness or that of a stone at the center of the chest.
Once this is percieved, death is experienced. Or you become the stone itself; witnessing the object, again, as noted by the process of first combining the elements, until you become the thing, or its essential nature. In this case, the mineral or stone depending on tradition, which is a metaphor for sexual magnetism with all things. The allegory of the path as taught by Moses:
"I will stand there before you by the rock at Horeb. Strike the rock, and water will come out of it for the people to drink." Exodus 17:6
Again, some call this the realization of 'I am that' due to this interconnectiveness of being completely in the moment without trying. It's no longer necessary, at this point, since you are at onement while an aspect of the external/internal Self who is witnessing this. You are aware. The true witness is evident. Anyway, the person no longer cares about knowing any thing, since they are that thing.
This level of perception will pass, since the person does not truly know all things and this is the confusion between that of unknowing and knowing, passing from one grade of subtle object perception, to the next.
After the perception of magnetism is experienced this very force/attachment will pull these two minerals or stones together to produce fire. The reason this happens is due to the gravitational pull of the outside world around you by your own inside world, via, magnetism or bhakti.
This is funny, since the very thing that is the magnet is beginning to turn and become its polar opposite, or opposing force at the same time: LOL. This is the path of the spiritual child that is very often misunderstood, because the child loves all - and all love this child. (which truly isn't love but a feeling). Regardless, with time, inevitably these two stones collide. (The outside world and the inside world). Until an internal spark is produced, which creates fire.
At this point, the mineral kingdom moves into the plant kingdom. Or the Kundalini burns away even this perception. The process/path is previously described (the end justified within the beginning) allegorically by Moses, describing the perception within the body of moving from a physical dying to a mental dying:
"came to Horeb, the mountain of God. There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. So Moses thought, "I will go over and see this strange sight--why the bush does not burn up." Exodus 1:3
Btw, this used to scare the hell out of me when I was younger, due to being brought up in a superstious household. I thought it was something evil. It really was frightening: 
Anyway, I just wanted to share this aspect of the path that I've learned by going backward, and forward, back and forth. Past, future, past future... rediscovering: LOL.
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on Feb 17 2008 09:50:15 AM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2008 : 10:23:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott
I will need more practice before I can say clearly what is what...but I already believe that you're oversimplifying the matter here. I do not think that the cool energy is shiva, or grounding...or that the hot energy is all shakti and bhakti.
You're the one actually doing the practice, so I'll definitely defer to your analysis! Thanks for your reply, I really appreciate it!
quote:
Sometimes you say that in yoga it's a long path that requires years of separately cultivating shiva and shakti. This hasn't been my experience in yoga at all. My success came about by mixing the two into one practice, and it's not so hard and doesn't take so long. A few years maybe, but not many.
You and I both agree it takes years (I never meant to give the impression that AYP takes, like, decades!). But Max seems to claim that Kunlun does it much faster. On the other
hand, I feel like I'm back to square one regarding understanding what kunlun actually does!
quote:
In fact, the more I think about it, the more it seems that shiva and shakti CAN'T be cultivated separately. To do so would limit the true power of each. Without the energetic awakening, silence is misunderstood. Without silence, the energies aren't actually awakened.
But that, fwiw, is what AYP is. And as a true believer of the system, I stand with arm extended, pointing your way, and bellowing monstrously at your infidelity (joking). The yoga answer is that we are nothing BUT shiva and shakti. So the notion of "cultivation" is part of the delusion, and is, at best, a helpful lie to get us to realize what's always been true anyway...to penetrate the layers of recoiling and armoring (and that armor is, itself, just yet more consciousness....per the dishwashing liquid commercial, we're SOAKING in it!).
quote:
Sure, we know kundalini signs and symptoms...but I really think those are the byproduct of the internal tantra...or at least when they're manifested on subtler levels (like just experiencing heat), it's just a mimicking of the internal tantra. The actual experience of the internal tantra is more shocking than sensations in the body...it changes your mind.
That's a little over my head. Maybe Yogani will have something to add on that at some point.
quote:
quote:
"your heart beat and breathing stills"
Ah! Ok, here we've really come to that "other thing". This has nothing to do with kundalini. This is Silence. Samadhi. Shiva. You do not usually hear about this in the same breath as the kundalini stuff.
On the contrary I think it has everything to do with kundalini. In my experience, this state is the union of shiva and shakti.
We're not disagreeing. We're miscommunicating. But I'm not sure how to put it right.
quote:
quote:
I'll stop here, because it's obvious. The firey upward energy is kundalini. The cooling, quieting effect is Shiva. And he's describing the unification of the two. whether it truly happens, and how one is left, remains to be seen. Please don't stop reporting back!!!
It does seem obvious. But then what are the cool sensations which rise upwards?
I'd guess uniting of shiva/shakti...where anything can go anywhere.
quote:
I was wondering about the crown in regard to level 1 practice, since it seems to avoid the crown entirely. Level 2 is where I could see the crown beginning to become involved. I am going to maintain my position that level 1 does nothing with the crown.
ah, so you've had no crown twinges in level 1. That's really helpful to know, thanks! Are you going to move to level 2?
quote:
...Sorry if my reply is kind of spacey...I'm about to pass out, due to jet lag.
Oh, man...then extra thanks for posting! Jet lag tip: don't nap. If you nap, you're dead...will take forever to get back to normal cycle! At least that's true for me... |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 17 2008 10:25:01 AM |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2008 : 3:40:50 PM
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Jim,
quote:
You're the one actually doing the practice, so I'll definitely defer to your analysis! Thanks for your reply, I really appreciate it!
No problem! I love talking about it!
quote:
You and I both agree it takes years (I never meant to give the impression that AYP takes, like, decades!). But Max seems to claim that Kunlun does it much faster. On the other
hand, I feel like I'm back to square one regarding understanding what kunlun actually does!
Same here man. Actually the further I go and the more I experience, the less I seem to understand about anything.
quote:
quote:
Sure, we know kundalini signs and symptoms...but I really think those are the byproduct of the internal tantra...or at least when they're manifested on subtler levels (like just experiencing heat), it's just a mimicking of the internal tantra. The actual experience of the internal tantra is more shocking than sensations in the body...it changes your mind.
That's a little over my head. Maybe Yogani will have something to add on that at some point.
Maybe he will. I feel the need to explain more of what I was trying to say though, because I admit it was pretty unclear...
Heat, tingling, lights, ringing in the ears, spontaneous movements etc...all are sensations which arise from the kundalini. Therefore, kundalini isn't hot, tingly, light, ringy, and it's not the spontaneous movements themselves. It just causes these things to happen. These are all physical expressions of kundalini working inside the body, and therefore, something else may be able to trigger them. Like I said before, an example of this is the flu causing you to overheat.
Lately I've been getting really hot if I drink, smoke, or eat. I'm sure other things would cause it too. Yet, I'm not going to say that those things stimulate kundalini. They may stimulate a similar internal process of detoxification, though.
When I'm watching a beautiful movie or hearing a touching song, or something along those lines, I get huge tingly sensations going through my whole body to the point where I'm sometimes overwhelmed with emotion and feeling that I just want to tear apart the world with my love. Or something like that! But that isn't kundalini...it's just the simulation of a similar internal process going on.
So, I think there are some yogic processes which simulate the kundalini process...but don't necessarily stimulate the kundalini directly. So a person who practices advanced yoga can experience heat, and tingling, etc...but in my opinion none of these things are actual kundalini awakenings.
Someone could argue that they may just be weak awakenings, or not going all the way up to the head to experience super consciousness...but it doesn't make sense that such a power could only awaken half way. It also doesn't make sense that something so powerful could be stopped in its tracks by a blockage...in my opinion it'd blow the blockage away if actually awoken. So I think that kundalini signs and symptoms are only indicators that the kundalini is possibly awakened, but not sure signs that you have an awakened kundalini - especially if it's just something subtle like a slight tingle in the spine after doing a few weeks of spinal breathing. I experience strange tingling most of the time which does have to do with the practices I've done, but does not mean that the kundalini is currently awakened.
I know kundalini is actually awakened when the breath stops, my consciousness gets really powerful to the point of obliterating all of my beliefs, there is a ton of energy coarsing through the whole body...words can hardly describe the state. When the state is deeper, my sense of self is flipped inside out. I'm sure there are even deeper states of it which could last even longer...I'll be the first to admit I'm not that far along with the process. So this has been a horrible description. Especially when I have to recall it from a not so fresh memory...and especially when I feel the need to try to explain it in a way that would make sense to someone who hasn't experienced it (which may or may not be you, Jim...but I do it anyway for the reader's sake).
quote:
quote:
It does seem obvious. But then what are the cool sensations which rise upwards?
I'd guess uniting of shiva/shakti...where anything can go anywhere.
I'm thinking it isn't so simple that we can say coolness is shiva/silence/grounding/front channel/yin and heat is shakti/ecstacy/rising/rear channel/yang. I think coolness and heat are just two sensations which arise from the marriage of shiva and shakti (consciousness witnessing and consciousness embodied). Hmm...maybe we're saying the same thing...?
Anyway about true tantra: I also think that practicing only by trying to awaken the kundalini and not doing anything about silencing the mind is useless because the shakti simply won't awaken that way. I think it'll just create bad energy flows and simulate some of the kundalini symptoms. And the likewise - if someone only meditates and pays no attention to the body, it'll be very hard to progress to a higher state of meditation. It'll take many years, and perhaps even lifetimes...and in fact it does seem to do so for those practitioners. Anyway...
quote:
ah, so you've had no crown twinges in level 1. That's really helpful to know, thanks! Are you going to move to level 2?
I've had lots of strange experiences as a result of level 1. It's a great practice! Better than siddhasana in my opinion! It is definitely REAL chi kung and not something that will take a long time for a person to get on the REAL path to enlightenment. And it is powerful, so I also think it's good advice to self pace the practice and not do the full recommended 1 hour a day. It can bring up a lot of stuff fast that is hard to deal with in our social busy lives.
I have had crown twinges for years now...since 2002 at least! So it's hard to say. But I don't see how the practice would stimulate the crown at all, unless of course you're doing the (in my opinion, useless and harmful) method of blocking your ejaculation and breathing it up into your head. It will get as much stimulation, if not less, than AYP methods...since kunlun is not a head centered practice, whereas AYP definitely is.
In AYP you have the inner mantra, which most people focus in their heads since that's where they're used to functioning from. Then sambhavi mudra. And besides that...all of the practices are upward drawing...in kunlun level 1, you don't focus on anything and are encouraged to let go (which brings the attention down into the heart more), and you do nothing specific with your face or head. And on the advice to smile - using a forced smile, in my experience, does not have the same effect as having a genuine smile as a result of the sublime energetic feelings...and even having that genuine smile, I don't think opens the crown so much. I don't think there's anything to worry about regarding the crown in level 1, besides the bad advice of blocking and breathing it up into your head!
If I continue doing level 1 for enough time to feel ready, I think I will probably slowly add on level 2. One of the prerequisites (kind of) is celibacy, and I am not a celibate person! That will be something I'll need to get accustomed to. AND right now, I don't have the time or place or even the resources to be able to do any kunlun practice for at least 2 months...so new reports will sadly not be coming in for a while.
quote:
Oh, man...then extra thanks for posting! Jet lag tip: don't nap. If you nap, you're dead...will take forever to get back to normal cycle! At least that's true for me...
I did nap a lot. Luckily, I wasn't in a normal cycle already! Thanks for the tip though...when I'm in a normal schedule and have to fly really far away I'll definitely keep it in mind. |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2008 : 5:03:57 PM
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Hi Scott and Jim:
It is not possible to say what is kundalini and what it is not with such parsing and distinctions. It is a never-ending labyrinth, like trying to categorize all the grains of sand on a beach. We we can say with some assurance that kundalini is all energy related to the rise of ecstatic conductivity, no matter how little or how much. That is, ecstatic conductivity radiating up from the loins, which is the source of kundalini (and even that is disputed sometimes). Beyond that general description, we are getting into all the grains of sand. Who needs it?
If a spigot is dripping slowly, it is water.
If it is running in a steady stream, it is still water.
If the pipe breaks and there is a big deluge, that is water too.
It's all water, isn't it? It is all one thing. Enlivened neurobiological energy in this case, to whatever degree that is (via the spigot). Others may wish to make all sorts of distinctions with great authority, but it doesn't mean much.
Regarding breath suspension, that can happen during deep meditation with little or no energy moving, so breath suspension is not necessarily an indicator of ecstatic conductivity or kundalini. It is an indicator of inner silence and a temporary suspension of metabolism. It is common in deep meditation, and gradually shows itself in our daily activity (safely) along with the rise of inner silence.
Energy movements will be accompanied naturally by breath suspension only if there is inner silence present (it will happen). And, as we know, there can be substantial energy movement without much inner silence present. We may call that "premature kundalini awakening," depending on the severity of the symptoms.
Keep in mind that there is only one human nervous system with a given range of transformative and experiential capabilities, no matter what techniques we may be using. When stimulated, those experiences can be described in different ways, but they will be essentially the same experiences.
So, the chances are pretty good that everything we find out about kunlun will be more or less analogous with what we already know from AYP, or from any tried and true spiritual path. It is only a matter of the effectiveness of the particular practices we may be using, and the mental structure that is being built around perceptions of the internal dynamics that are occurring. We can avoid a lot of unnecessary distraction by regarding it all as, yes, "scenery!"
Well, just a few observations from the AYP perspective. I hope to be reading about kunlun in a few weeks. Will let you know if I see anything significantly different. So far, it looks like a lot of attention on "scenery," but that may not be Mr. Max's doing, unless it is mainly the scenery he is selling. If that is the case, then let the buyer beware. 
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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topflight
3 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2008 : 5:20:37 PM
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I wanted to contribute my experiences and observations of Kunlun. I have been practicing AYP for 13 months. This was my practice routine twice a day.
Asanas – 5 min
Mobile body awareness (MBA) stimulation of root and brow – 5 min - see Robert Bruce http://www.amazon.com/Energy-Work-H...p/1571745408 or http://www.astraldynamics.com/downl...%2011-07.pdf
Spinal breathing pranayama – 10 min – including siddhasana, kechari stage 2, sambhavi, and MBA
Deep meditation – 20 min – including siddhasana, kechari stage 2, ujjayi, I AM
Rest – 5-10 min
I have made huge strides in my practice over the past year – thanks Yogani!
I became intrigued with Kunlun based on what I had read in the forums aypsite.org and taobums.org and ordered the book. I wanted to add this to my AYP practice and not replace it - which goes against everything everyone has recommended. But I figured I could add a short routine of Kunlun level 1 and self-pace. The AYP practice seems to have the overall flow of active to passive. Since Kunlun level 1 is a totally non-directed practice so I added it after deep meditation and before rest.
The first practice I did 15 min and it gave me energy overload and an upset stomach. It was just way too much. The second practice I cut back to 10 min and it was much better and smoother. Over the past week I’ve worked back up to 20 min where I think I will keep it for a while. The energy seems to take about 5 to 10 minutes to activate into the practice.
The energy seems to be 95% in the front of the body. It activates between the root and the brow. It does not seem to affect the crown. I don’t know if it inherently does not affect the crown or I have simply trained the energy to go between the root and brow over the past year with my AYP practices.
I can tell it is working on me as I can feel it in my brow between practices. It does not hurt or give irritability like my traditional overload symptoms. The only symptom is a little light-headedness.
I may experiment with swapping the order of meditation and Kunlun. My current revised practice looks like
…
Spinal breathing pranayama – 10 min – including siddhasana, kechari stage 2, sambhavi, and MBA
Deep meditation – 20 min – including siddhasana, kechari stage 2, ujjayi, I AM
Kunlun Level 1 – 20 min
Rest – 5-10 min
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2008 : 6:50:15 PM
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Hi All:
I have had an opportunity to go through the little Kunlun Nei Gung book. It is sincere, and does overlap with most of the AYP energy-related practices, with the possible exception of level 3 kunlun, which is a visualization practice intended for grounding. The prior two levels I'd classify as "kundalini" practices, especially level 2 involving kumbhaka (breath retention) combined with posture and attention.
The central role of sexual energy, including some clear overlaps with AYP, makes it obvious that kunlun is kundalini-related, by whatever other name it may be called. It is an interesting approach, and even speaks to some of the stories of high mountain Asian monks playing "body heat" games in the freezing cold, etc.
It's a nice little book. Clear and concise. We like that around here. The author deserves credit for downplaying the scenery aspect, of which there can be plenty, as has been discussed in this topic already. He also speaks of the reduction of energy friction in the nervous system as the nerves are cleared over time. Energy friction is the primary cause of movements, "automatic yoga" and other energy-related phenomena. The gradual reduction of neurobiological friction leads to smoother practice and more refined experiences. This is the same process of purification and opening we have discussed often in AYP.
It appears that inner silence, to the extent cultivated, is a derivative of kunlun practice, if that. It is not addressed directly. So, deep meditation may be a good complement to kunlun practice. But much of the rest of AYP may be doubling up, including spinal breathing, asanas, mudras, bandhas, kumbhaka, etc. It is back to the same questions about combining Taoist and Yoga practices that were discussed here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=500
As is usually the case when comparing Taoist and Yoga practices, the former tends to be energy-based (martial roots), while the latter tends to be consciousness-based (meditation/vedic roots). That seems to be the case here too. That's just how it is.
As for the long term results of Kunlun versus AYP and other systems, we'll have to see what Scott, TopFlight and others have to say down the road. I'm looking forward to feedback whenever it may come.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2008 : 7:46:58 PM
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TopFlight,
Do you ground according to the instructions as well? I think that the grounding posture is half of the process. Also, you know it's advised not to mix...but since you seem to be making the choice based on what you feel is right for you, I wish you luck with it!
Yogani,
It seems to me that the inner silence aspect is taken care of at the same time as the energy aspect, and that no active meditation is required. Rather, the stillness that results is a byproduct of the internal changes...and also from sitting in one place with no distractions for over an hour! I think it's like shikantaza, from some Zen traditions.
My experience with it is that the mind can drop away easily at various times throughout the practice (more so than sitting in any other way I've sat).
Also, perhaps you're right to say that it's useless to debate what is what under the hood. We are just trying to feel out this new practice to see if it is legitimate and safe, or perhaps if its a superior form of energy control...I don't claim to be any authority. All I know is what I've experienced in both practices, AYP and kunlun, so I bring that to the table. Some things I have experienced so far are similar to AYP, yet some things are different.
quote:
Regarding breath suspension, that can happen during deep meditation with little or no energy moving, so breath suspension is not necessarily an indicator of ecstatic conductivity or kundalini. It is an indicator of inner silence and a temporary suspension of metabolism. It is common in deep meditation, and gradually shows itself in our daily activity (safely) along with the rise of inner silence.
Energy movements will be accompanied naturally by breath suspension only if there is inner silence present (it will happen). And, as we know, there can be substantial energy movement without much inner silence present. We may call that "premature kundalini awakening," depending on the severity of the symptoms.
Perhaps you're right that in truth these things can happen separately...it's just that in my experience, automatic breath suspension without this shift in consciousness and without the resulting huge surge of energy, is not the same. Without those other things, it does seem to be a result of relaxing the body and slowing the metabolism...but what I've experienced doesn't have to do so much with relaxation. It is more like being shocked out of a trance, and the shock is what causes the breath suspension.
But I will be the first to admit I've only gone so far, and have much more to learn. So I will just continue on with whatever practices I'm able to do, and continue, keeping an open mind. |
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Kunlun Nei Gung
