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gentlep
USA
114 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 17 2007 : 1:51:27 PM
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| If I relax in deep meditation i.e. let go even to attach to the repeatation of "I AM" mantra, I kind of get some dreams (day dreaming?) It's confusing because it's not really images but seems like images and seen by somewhere in the back of the brain, not from the forehead as I always imagined where I would see visions. Now if I try to control it and come back to mantra exclusively, it feels too rigid and not relaxing. Then the mind gets into analyzing and unnecessary thought. I find most relaxation by letting the images run alongwith the "I AM" mantra as and when possible. Is that a correct way? |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Sep 17 2007 : 3:09:10 PM
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Hi Gentlep:
Yes, that is correct, but keep in mind that in deep meditation we are using a specific procedure. We favor the mantra whenever we notice we are off it -- no forcing, no strain. If there is some strain when going back to the mantra, we may be forcing to a less refined (more concrete) level of mental pronunciation. Or there could be a lot of purification going on -- see lesson 15 for what to do if excess purification and discomfort are occurring during deep meditation.
Either way, we take it easy. We just favor the mantra whenever we realize we are off somewhere in the labyrinth of the mind, and the move will naturally be to less activity in the mind. At times, the mantra can be very faint and fuzzy, barely recognizable, a mere nothing. There can be other things going on at the same time -- thoughts, feelings, sensations. It is fine to let the other things be there at the same time, but not deliberately favoring them. When we notice we have wandered off into thoughts or sensations, no matter how refined or entertaining, we just favor the faint vibration of the mantra without undue strain.
Deep meditation is not about deliberately getting rid of thoughts, feelings or sensations, or about forcing our attention to be on one thing or the other. Many experiences will be coming and going during deep meditation, and changing all the time. This is fine. It is part of the process of purification and opening. Everything else will be changing during meditation, but the procedure does not change. It is the procedure that brings us home to inner silence over and over again. Through daily practice we gradually come to know that we are pure bliss consciousness 24 hours a day. This has many practical benefits, going far beyond any experience we may have in any given meditation session. That is why we stay with the procedure.
This is also why we often say, "Favor the practice over the experience."
Forgetting to favor the mantra, getting lost in whatever may be happening, is not being off the procedure. We are only off the procedure when we consciously choose to favor our experiences over the mantra -- you may be flirting with this one a little bit. When we are in our deep meditation session, when we have a choice, the choice is always the same -- favor the mantra on whatever level of the mind we are -- clear or faint. And when we don't have a choice (lost in thoughts, feelings or sensations), no one will come and hit us with a stick, and we don't have to hit ourselves with a stick either. 
It is an easy and fun practice, and very powerful too, if done daily.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Richard
United Kingdom
857 Posts |
Posted - Sep 17 2007 : 3:12:11 PM
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Yes that's OK gentlep it is quite normal for images to seem to be seen at the back of the brain I see them there too, and quite normal for other thoughts to occur at the same time as the mantra (in your case images)
Never try to force the mantra just come back to it gently when it is easy to do so.
If the images want to run alongside let them but favour the mantra, In other words give the mantra more attention than the images. |
Edited by - Richard on Sep 18 2007 08:49:52 AM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Sep 19 2007 : 03:50:13 AM
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"And when we don't have a choice (lost in thoughts, feelings or sensations), no one will come and hit us with a stick, and we don't have to hit ourselves with a stick either."
Thank you for those words, Yogani. These days it seems I don't have much choice at all about anything but to stay with my inner guru and what is true. As soon as I'm mindy (in or out of meditation), that strain and following problems come.
The line between what is "experiences" happening to the person (not to be attached to, just enjoy and then let go of), and what is merely being with what IS (neither thought or feeling nor sensation, no person there, just being the now and therefore impossible to DO anything, noone there to pick up the mantra) is very, very blurry...
I guess this is also just a phase... change will come.
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Sep 19 2007 : 08:32:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
The line between what is "experiences" happening to the person (not to be attached to, just enjoy and then let go of), and what is merely being with what IS (neither thought or feeling nor sensation, no person there, just being the now and therefore impossible to DO anything, no one there to pick up the mantra) is very, very blurry...
Hi EMC:
Being absorbed in "what is," without thoughts, feelings or sensations, is being absorbed in inner silence, which is samadhi, the destination of meditation. Whether we are absorbed in that, or in thoughts, feelings or sensations, there is not a requirement to force our way back to the mantra. But when we realize we have been off into any experience or state of awareness, including samadhi, and have a choice about what to put our attention on next, then that is when we favor the mantra on the level we are at in the mind. Depending on where we are, that can be a clear mental pronunciation of the mantra or a very faint and fuzzy favoring. We will know where we are in that by sensing the lack of strain in picking the mantra up. This a finer point in favoring the mantra, and it takes some practice. Once we are favoring the mantra, it serves as a vehicle to go deep into absorption in inner silence (samadhi) again. We may not even notice until we are aware that we are out on a thought, and then we have the option to favor the mantra again. Very simple.
When we have a choice and instead decide, "I will just be here in the now with no mantra," then this is a choice to do another kind of practice, and this is no longer AYP deep meditation. That may or may not be an effective practice, and I could not predict the long term result. If there is no precedence or other external guidance for the procedure, then it is the practitioner's experiment and it will be what it will be.
It is important to know beforehand what our choice for practice is going to be, and favor that consistently over time. Otherwise, we will be relying on the vagaries of the mind during meditation, or on "automatic yoga." Neither of these is going to be consistent, and will not always be in our best interest.
Again, none of this is to say we are obliged to be yanking ourselves out of samadhi or any other condition of awareness with a "mindy" approach to meditation. The mantra can be extremely "unmindy" -- practically no mind at all. From there it is a short hop to absorption in inner silence. If we just "let it be" without mantra, we may or may not make that hop. It is impossible to measure the results of meditation during meditation. The mind will play a thousand tricks on us. We can only know later by how we feel in daily activity. If we have increasing resident inner silence, creativity and energy, then we will know our meditation is working. The results of effective meditation are very practical in daily living.
It has been said elsewhere in the AYP writings that deep meditation with mantra is "proactive" in relation to mindfulness style techniques (letting it be). Mindfulness methods assume that that doing nothing will lead to samadhi (it is a big assumption), whereas mantra style deep meditation virtually guarantees samadhi by its dynamic nature. This is why deep meditation with mantra may be regarded to be more powerful than mindfulness techniques, requiring shorter sittings and more management of results (cause and effect) through the use of self-pacing. This is as true for practitioners who are undertaking the cultivation of inner silence in a systematic way for the first time as it is for practitioners who are already falling into inner silence at the drop of a hat. Both would like to have the whole enchilada, and the procedure of deep meditation is equally effective for both, assuming familiarity is developed in applying the procedure at all levels of awareness. Like anything else, this takes practice over time.
Do keep in mind that whether we are choosing to do something or not do something in our meditation sittings, we are always making a choice. What we consistently choose to do or not do in our sittings (whenever we have the option) will determine the outcome over the long term. As we develop the habit for the procedure we have chosen, that blurry area between experiences and samadhi will become more clear, because the habit of our practice will automatically be taking us to inner silence again and again. That is the case with deep meditation anyway.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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thomas
USA
22 Posts |
Posted - Sep 19 2007 : 12:02:05 PM
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Yogani,
quote:
But when we realize we have been off into any experience or state of awareness, including samadhi, and have a choice about what to put our attention on next, then that is when we favor the mantra on the level we are at in the mind.
Thank you for the clarification regarding absorption, samadhi and the correct procedure for still coming back to the mantra in AYP deep meditation when these states are encountered. Much appreciated.
Thomas |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Sep 19 2007 : 4:55:48 PM
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Thank you for a great answer, still it brings more questions to me... and it's getting me very mindy and thinking and worrying... 
quote:
We will know where we are in that by sensing the lack of strain in picking the mantra up. This a finer point in favoring the mantra, and it takes some practice.
Definitely sounds like I need some calibration and further practice here in order to find that level of "fine mind"!
quote:
When we have a choice and instead decide, "I will just be here in the now with no mantra," then this is a choice to do another kind of practice, and this is no longer AYP deep meditation. That may or may not be an effective practice, and I could not predict the long term result. If there is no precedence or other external guidance for the procedure, then it is the practitioner's experiment and it will be what it will be.
It is important to know beforehand what our choice for practice is going to be, and favor that consistently over time. Otherwise, we will be relying on the vagaries of the mind during meditation, or on "automatic yoga." Neither of these is going to be consistent, and will not always be in our best interest.
Getting paranoid here... Everything has been so smooth, simple and right until now. Is that inner voice/knowing (which I have taken to be my inner guru) who is telling me to stop the mantra perhaps only a trick of the mind or automatic yoga leading nowhere? Gosh... Shall I trust my intuition, my inner guru, the one and only thing that has intelligently and lovingly been leading me to the state of consciousness where I'm now, or shall I trust the procedure? They don't agree at the moment, and the way of least resistance at the moment is to follow my inner urge. Doubt has entered... because I'm prone due to patterning to trust outer sources more than inner.
quote:
It is impossible to measure the results of meditation during meditation. The mind will play a thousand tricks on us. We can only know later by how we feel in daily activity.
This caused a huge smiling.  This is actually no problem at all unless I make a problem of it. |
Edited by - emc on Sep 19 2007 4:56:21 PM |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Sep 19 2007 : 10:31:58 PM
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Hi EMC:
Not to worry. I am only describing how AYP deep meditation works, and offering thoughts in general on using a procedure, as I am obliged to do. Systematic and safe so more can fly and arrive. You know, like an airline.
You will choose your own way, and I encourage that. Your bhakti will lead you on. Being an inquiring person, you will continue to explore and gravitate toward the things that work best for you long term, which is how it should be. They are all your choices.
What you may not have thought of before is that using no procedure is a procedure -- maybe a sobering thought. But it could also be called a vacation. 
Have fun!
The guru is in you.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2007 : 03:00:11 AM
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I'd definitely call it vacation! I'm suspecting I'm guided toward an approach of not taking anything very seriously, not even the mantra. Easy is the way. I might have had a too rigid approach, always wanting to be a "good girl" and do things right, causing guilt and strain. If I let go of "have to do this right" and listen inwards and relax I might hear that mantra vaguely in the background...!? 
Thanks for your wisdom, Yogani! |
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gentlep
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2007 : 3:08:23 PM
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For me the biggest thing in life is trusting to lose control. If I look back probably everything would have happened the same whether I tried to control or not. I guess it's the mind trying to take over everything. It's the same thing I bring to meditation. Trying to control myself to the "I AM" mantra rigidly and that brings the same kind of stress as in life. I guess the key is to be in less refined version of the mantra as Yogani said. And also it's getting the right balance between relaxation and mantra. It sounds hard if I think about it but not so if I just trust right thing is happening.
Regarding emc's question, isn't getting lost in thought and no-thought are both mind's play. So it should be the same as far as getting back to mantra is considered when one realizes that. But then what does it mean by transcending mind? |
Edited by - gentlep on Sep 20 2007 5:27:48 PM |
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deep meditation and dreams/vision
