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Kris
United Kingdom
18 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 05 2007 : 07:59:35 AM
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Having read the thread by Kirtanman I have a couple of questions which I hope someone may be able to help me with.
Firstly, is it correct to equate Nirvikalpa Samadhi with Buddhist Nirodha? Nirodha is described as “cessation” but in order to elaborate, I have found the following:
quote:
One way traces the etymology to “ni” (without) + “rodha” (prison, confine, obstacle, wall, impediment), thus rendering the meaning as “without impediment,” “free of confinement.” This is explained as “free of impediments, that is, the confinement of Samsara.” Another definition traces the origin to anuppada, meaning “not arising”, and goes on to say “Nirodha here does not mean bhanga, breaking up and dissolution.”
“Therefore, translating Nirodha as “cessation”, although not entirely wrong, is nevertheless not entirely accurate. On the other hand, there is no other word which comes so close to the essential meaning as “cessation.” However, we should understand what is meant by the term. In this context, the Dependent Origination cycle in its cessation mode might be better rendered as “being free of ignorance, there is freedom from volitional impulses ...” or “when ignorance is gone, volitional impulses are gone ...” or “when ignorance ceases to give fruit, volitional impulses cease to give fruit ...” or “when ignorance is no longer a problem, volitional impulses are no longer a problem.”
http://www.angelfire.com/electronic...orption.html
My second question concerns the meditative experience itself. I feel that I can abide in varying degrees of Savikalpa Samadhi but I know that from time to time I have drifted deeper into Nirvikalpa Samadhi. The only problem is (that within this state) there is no reference to, or awareness of “self and experience”.
When I become aware that I have touched this state, I’m ejected pretty quickly out of it - in fact this very awareness marks my abrupt exit.
How do you become able to ‘consciously’ abide within it, without being thrown out?
It seems a paradox.
I’d be grateful for any advice.
Kris |
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Kris
United Kingdom
18 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2007 : 10:59:33 AM
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I guess it's a tough question.
Kris |
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thomas
USA
22 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2007 : 11:30:28 AM
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Hi Kris,
Its a matter of definition and classification and in different traditions it can vary somewhat. However, from my understanding in AYP nirvikalpa samadhi would most correspond to that state when the "witness" becomes permanently sustained through all levels of consciousness, ie. waking, dreaming and sleeping. In other words, the nervous system has become sufficiently purified to prevent the clouding over of the witness by experience or whether one is sleeping or awake.
This, of course, is not an end state but really a new beginning. The Heart then begins to play a more dominant role and begins to dissolve the boundaries between in and out ... this and that ... giving rise to increasing levels of Love to be shared with all.
Perhaps, Yogani would clarify or correct ...
Thomas |
Edited by - thomas on Sep 24 2007 11:37:43 AM |
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Darko
21 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2007 : 1:45:53 PM
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quote:
I know that from time to time I have drifted deeper into Nirvikalpa Samadhi.
This is not Nirvikalpa Samadhi. There are still two self's. One self that knows about a second self that has drifted. It is still duality.
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The only problem is (that within this state) there is no reference to, or awareness of “self and experience”.
Yes, because self and experience became one. Not because awareness vanishes.
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When I become aware that I have touched this state, I’m ejected pretty quickly out of it - in fact this very awareness marks my abrupt exit.How do you become able to ‘consciously’ abide within it, without being thrown out?
There is no way to ‘consciously’ abide within. Yo can go very far with meditation and "techniques" but the final step into your own self is not doable by your own self. This final step happens by itself and there is no, no, no way to "do" it or to ‘consciously’ stay in "it". When you realise that you are all that is then nobody is left to stay in yourself or fall out of yourself.
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It seems a paradox.
You got it. 
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I’d be grateful for any advice.
Don't fool yourself with "higher" states of consciousness. Don't bother about different states of "Samadhi". Enjoy. Meditate. Or just relax...  |
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yogani
USA
5245 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2007 : 2:49:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by thomas
Its a matter of definition and classification and in different traditions it can vary somewhat. However, from my understanding in AYP nirvikalpa samadhi would most correspond to that state when the "witness" becomes permanently sustained through all levels of consciousness, ie. waking, dreaming and sleeping. In other words, the nervous system has become sufficiently purified to prevent the clouding over of the witness by experience or whether one is sleeping or awake.
This, of course, is not an end state but really a new beginning. The Heart then begins to play a more dominant role and begins to dissolve the boundaries between in and out ... this and that ... giving rise to increasing levels of Love to be shared with all.
Perhaps, Yogani would clarify or correct ...
Hi Thomas, Kris and Darko:
Yes, that is a reasonable explanation of rising nirvikalpa samadhi, and it would seem to be in the direction of nirodha as well. One nervous system, the same emerging enlightenment experience, and different words to describe it. It is the process of attachment (identification) becoming less and less as inner silence comes up within us, even as we may become more and more engaged in the processes of the world around us, because they are all aspects of our own dear self.
The abiding inactive witness, finding itself awakened amidst activity, could be said to be mid-stage nirvikalpa. In AYP, we call it the first enlightenment milestone.
Inner silence is known in deep meditation, going in and out, due to our process of inner purification and opening driven by seeds (savikalpa). By this process, inner silence becomes gradually more present in daily activity as the abiding witness (impervious to seed). Then, with the awakening of ecstatic conductivity over time, the witness emerges to become one and the same as, and consciously expressing through, all activity. The active witness!
Oddly enough, the highest stage of nirvikalpa is often found to be very active in the world, with inner silence (the witness) fully engaged in action without attachment (seedless).
In the Yoga Sutras, Patanjali calls this "Dharmamegha -- the virtue-pouring cloud" (4-29). In AYP we call it outpouring divine love. Whatever we call it, it is fully engaged disengagement -- the paradox of stillness in action, the state of unity. Some call it sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi. Others, like the Buddhists, simply call it "being awake." We'd like to be in the position to offer our own description based on direct experience resulting from effective daily spiritual practices. And so we shall! 
There is some debate among scholars and theorists as to whether the fluctuations "stop" or not in nirvikalpa samadhi. To me, this the same as the argument over whether the nature of existence is non-dual or dual. It is all semantics. It is what it is, no matter which system is used to describe it. When we see for ourselves through our own purifying nervous system and refining perception, we will know what it is, and can call it whatever we wish. The names are derived from the experience, not the other way around.
Seeing is believing. Therefore, much better to practice and find out, than to theorize. It doesn't matter how enlightenment is described. It is still enlightenment, and it is open to everyone.
The guru is in you.
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thomas
USA
22 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2007 : 3:10:55 PM
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Thank you Yogani for the clarity, simplicity and encouragement to just practice and enjoy living life. Your sharing and love touch us all.
Thomas |
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2007 : 5:21:34 PM
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| I second that, thomas. |
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Kris
United Kingdom
18 Posts |
Posted - Sep 25 2007 : 07:55:09 AM
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Dear Yogani, Thomas & Darko,
Many thanks for a clear and wonderful explanation. As the suttas often say: "The Dhamma has been made clear in many ways... as though... turning upright what had been overthrown, revealing the hidden, showing the way to one who was lost, holding up a lamp in the darkness for those with eyes to see forms".
Plenty for me to think about and very inspirational.
namaste
Kris |
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jillatay
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - Sep 25 2007 : 5:00:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
It is what it is, no matter which system is used to describe it. When we see for ourselves through our own purifying nervous system and refining perception, we will know what it is, and can call it whatever we wish. The names are derived from the experience, not the other way around.
Seeing is believing. Therefore, much better to practice and find out, than to theorize. It doesn't matter how enlightenment is described. It is still enlightenment, and it is open to everyone.
Yogani,
My heart overflows with joy at these wonderful wise words.
My own thoughts: After this stage there are only two things left to do. One of them is nothing. The other is do whatever needs doing.
But finally what needs doing will not need to be done by "you" 
Feeling very grateful today for all the teachers of the dhamma past and present.
Jill |
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Nirvikalpa Samadhi & Nirodha?
