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grinspoon
Philippines
4 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 06 2007 : 3:50:43 PM
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The concept of sacred sex, finding spiritual union through a sexual one, is slowly gaining ground in North America. Our psyches are certainly ripe for it. As a society we're obsessed with sex. In part it's a lustily healthful obsession, a celebratory dance of life's great force, but much of it flounders in darkness and neurosis - sex for power, sex for profit, sex for oblivion. We use and abuse sex for everything from selling soap to making or breaking political leaders.
At the same time there's a spiritual hunger running rampant through the land. The ache for meaning stretches from radical through traditional - Nina Hagen follows guru Babaji, Madonna embraces the Kaballah, the Peace Makers hail conservative Christianity. We're screaming for substance.
Well why not unite the two? Bring sex and spirit together and find your magic! The idea's definitely not a new one. Ritualized sex has been an acknowledged sacred pathway in Eastern philosophies for several thousand years. Tantra, probably the most commonly known form of sacred sexuality, has its home in branches of the Hindu and Buddhist cultures of India and Tibet. Like Al Link and Pala Copeland who teaches Tantra, explains how this sacred spiritual sex disciplines the mind and the body. Based on a belief that the union of male and female principles (yin and yang, yab and yum) will lead to enlightenment, traditional Tantra uses a complex series of sounds, visualizations, breath control, and sexual positions combined with prayerful thought to reach the heights of godly bliss.
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2007 : 05:42:49 AM
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Hi,
Actually the right side of Tantra is celibate according to my teachings.Conserving the sexual energy leads to greater purification.
Dave |
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Hannah
38 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2007 : 6:19:03 PM
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It is not just according to your teachings, Dave. The highest form of tantra, samaya, is right hand and does not include sex. There was a recent discussion on tantra and the energies it can carry. It was a less than pleasant thread, as those who are practicing the left sided tantra fiercely protect it. But hey, to each his own.
quote:
Originally posted by riptiz
Hi,
Actually the right side of Tantra is celibate according to my teachings.Conserving the sexual energy leads to greater purification.
Dave
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grinspoon
Philippines
4 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2007 : 12:53:14 PM
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What is the difference between samaya and tantra.?Like you said that samaya, there is no sex.
Sorry i have no time to search about samaya..hehehe..Thanks |
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Hannah
38 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2007 : 6:57:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by grinspoon
What is the difference between samaya and tantra.?Like you said that samaya, there is no sex.
Sorry i have no time to search about samaya..hehehe..Thanks
Samaya is a form of tantra, the highest form. It incorporates the guru chakra, mantra, and is completely internal. What has become popular is the kaula form of tantra, which is the lowest form and is often associated with sex or sexual energies. It works, but it is simply a lower form. |
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grinspoon
Philippines
4 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2007 : 09:52:33 AM
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[/quote]
Samaya is a form of tantra, the highest form. It incorporates the guru chakra, mantra, and is completely internal. What has become popular is the kaula form of tantra, which is the lowest form and is often associated with sex or sexual energies. It works, but it is simply a lower form.
[/quote]
Now I know, I'll search for more about that later. Anyway, Thanks a lot Hannah! |
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avatar186
USA
146 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2007 : 05:41:43 AM
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both practises are one and the same, the gross internal and the subtle internal techniques. I once read a chinese text that stated if one does not know the method of melting, one will hardly produce the elixer of life. as the gross will grossly purify the body, one will be mostly celibite, circulating the light no? only preforming the gross on occasion. i believe theirs a reference to this. yet when one advances far enough, the gross will be consistantly subtle no? gross techniqes never even being needed, as all is preformed without aciton.
yet combine the subtle and gross techniques. as your subtle techniqe should work, being like the wind should work immensly on the base, moving it upwards strongly and fast. once heard one should have his foundation on the rock.
if one has a strong backwords flow, even the gross techniqe, can be subtle, as one dosnt have to ever reach creation of fluid.
I believe it is the breathe that pruifys no? so fix the breath using gross tantra on the short term. hence on occasion. as being completely celibate is unbalanced no? yet too much sex and be sucked in huh? completly reversing your flow. less depeding how far one is mabey eh?
Not only do i have a left hand, but a right hand too. LOL |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2007 : 10:18:13 AM
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Hi Hannah:
I don't believe there is "high" or "low" in tantra, except as may be imagined in an ideology, and that is not very relevant to individual needs, or the wide range of practical methods available for cultivating human spiritual transformation.
If celibacy is undertaken prematurely, without effective means in place for cultivating and expressing the accumulating inner energies, it can end up being a very low path, as the priesthood has clearly demonstrated. So, high can be low and low can be high, depending on the person and the means applied. It does not lend itself to rigid points of view on either side.
Our spiritual progress depends on balanced practice according to our inner condition and bhakti (spiritual desire). Our approach to tantric practice will shift gradually over time as inner purification and opening advance. It is an organic process, not an ideological one.
Avatar makes the point quite well. Two hands are better than one -- less chance of getting stuck using the wrong hand. A key ingredient in self-directed practice is flexibility for the sake of maintaining good progress with safety. We also call it self-pacing.
The guru is in you.
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Hannah
38 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2007 : 8:19:06 PM
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God Bless you Yogani. It is always refreshing to witness a soul so passionate about their own practice. That alone should carry one far. Let's not confuse the meaning of what I was saying though. I never mentioned celibacy, only the differing forms of tantra. And yes, there are different forms. Look at Choosing a Path by Swami Rama. I believe he is listed as one of the sources which you have drawn from in your own teachings. You can also do a simple Google search on the TYPES of Tantra and read of the differing forms, and yes, they are divided into higher and lower. No reason to deny it. It is only proper in a yoga forum to disseminate the information and let the individual decide for themselves which path to follow, since the Guru is in us. Now, I am excusing myself from this bantering (an ego tactic) in order to get some practice time in. 
Love and Blessings
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Hi Hannah:
I don't believe there is "high" or "low" in tantra, except as may be imagined in an ideology, and that is not very relevant to individual needs, or the wide range of practical methods available for cultivating human spiritual transformation.
If celibacy is undertaken prematurely, without effective means in place for cultivating and expressing the accumulating inner energies, it can end up being a very low path, as the priesthood has clearly demonstrated. So, high can be low and low can be high, depending on the person and the means applied. It does not lend itself to rigid points of view on either side.
Our spiritual progress depends on balanced practice according to our inner condition and bhakti (spiritual desire). Our approach to tantric practice will shift gradually over time as inner purification and opening advance. It is an organic process, not an ideological one.
Avatar makes the point quite well. Two hands are better than one -- less chance of getting stuck using the wrong hand. A key ingredient in self-directed practice is flexibility for the sake of maintaining good progress with safety. We also call it self-pacing.
The guru is in you.
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2007 : 11:09:39 PM
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Hi Hannah:
Actually, all forms of tantra overlap. It is only a matter of emphasis according to the needs of the practitioner. Hopefully, these will be organic needs associated with bhakti (spiritual desire) and the natural processes of human spiritual transformation, rather than ideological.
It should be mentioned that my path for quite a few years has been and is currently along the lines you are seeking, and it is covered in the lessons. So there is a small irony here. It should also be said that it took me many years before that to make the transition, which is why I endorse both left and right handed tantra -- whatever works for the aspirant in the present, and whatever will work for the aspirant in the future. For most people, spiritual transformation is a gradual progression, with much overlap in the many grades of practice and experience along the way. In that sense, each person's path is unique.
There is nothing to defend but what is practical for each person on their path. I am happy to do the same for you, but not at the expense of the spiritual progress of others.
As for Swami Rama, he was a pioneer in his fine writings on the frontier of the increasing transmission of yoga practices in the 20th century. Actually, he is much better in writing than he was in person (just my opinion). As is the case with all pioneers, they provide a foundation and a launching pad for others to carry on to new and broader horizons. If AYP can serve that purpose also, even a little, it will be a success. We are all stepping stones on the way to a more illuminated humanity.
Wishing you all the best on your path. Carry on!
The guru is in you.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2007 : 09:43:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Hannah
The highest form of tantra, samaya, is right hand and does not include sex.
Hannah, I swear to Patanjali I'm not baiting you on this, but what do you consider sex?
I don't ask from a semantic Bill Clinton/Monica-gate perspective. I mean it literally.
I'm not even consciously practicing tantra, but every step of the spiritual path beyond a certain point feels like hotter and hotter sex and orgasm. No. Not "feels"....it IS sex and orgasm...the very essence of it. As kundalini thrusts up the back, it is totally hot and juicy. As it sucks back down the front, through the vulva that is ajna, it is pure and utter copulation. I'm not speaking metaphorically...I mean it literally.
It's all sex. Mostly my genitals happen not to be involved these days. But when I do make use of my genitals, it's just more of same. That particular part of my body is just another way station on the bodily route, and not a particularly significant one (no wisecracks, you guys).
So I'm GUESSING when you say "sex" you're speaking, specifically, about genital friction? If so, what a weird place to draw a distinction. When I have an orgasm in my heart or ajna, the sex is EXTENDED, not sublimated or transcended. At no point, even as genitals have become less involved and relevant in my sex life, have I pointed at my groin and said "Penis: BAD".
It's almost unimaginable to me to divide the huge throbbing experience of cosmic sexuality along the basis of genital/non-genital. Sex is huge. Sex is everything. It's the all-pervasive ecstatic energy of our universe, our God, our soul, our everything. So whether you're actually doing stuff with your naughty bits or not is just a tiny footnote in a very large book indeed. Why elevate its importance by making it so crucial? |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2007 : 7:57:23 PM
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Hi Yogani,
quote:
As is the case with all pioneers, they provide a foundation and a launching pad for others to carry on to new and broader horizons. If AYP can serve that purpose also, even a little, it will be a success. We are all stepping stones on the way to a more illuminated humanity.
It been that for me, so thanks.
quote:
It should also be said that it took me many years before that to make the transition, which is why I endorse both left and right handed tantra -- whatever works for the aspirant in the present, and whatever will work for the aspirant in the future. For most people, spiritual transformation is a gradual progression, with much overlap in the many grades of practice and experience along the way. In that sense, each person's path is unique.
The use of tantra is perhaps like the use of diet. What works and is appropriate at one point in time may not be so at another.
One little direct experience with Swami Rama. I met him one time. I was with a couple buddies who were given mantra initiation by him. He was giving a pep talk to a group of his devotees. I can't comment on his talk as I don't remember it much and we were in the back but he was inspiring his students. Afterwards, he was informally talking to a group of people and suddenly he left the group, came over and put his hand on my cheek, and gave me a benevolent look like in one of his pictures. Then he left the room. I think he must have sensed what was going on with me at the time, because I did nothing to attract his attention that I am aware of and out of 50 people in the room, why would he single me out?
I read the part of the book called Swami by Doug Boyd in which he talks about being Swami Rama's personal secretary and attendent while he was being studied at the Menninger Foundation and demonstrating his physical and mental mastery with biofeedback.
He said that Swami Rama was an extremely sensitive individual and could not but help to respond to what he sensed in his immediate environment. He called him a responder.
During his talk, I saw little blue thought form squares rising from his head region up into the air above him. They were the color of the standard upper border of windows xp.
quote:
When I have an orgasm in my heart or ajna, the sex is EXTENDED, not sublimated or transcended. I'm not even consciously practicing tantra, but every step of the spiritual path beyond a certain point feels like hotter and hotter sex and orgasm.
Wow, Jim, I am happy for you. Enjoy! I am sure you are. 
Happy tantra, everybody, which ever hand you are usng.
Best, yb.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2007 : 8:02:16 PM
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Hanna said:
The highest form of tantra, samaya, is right hand and does not include sex.
I agree with Yogani that there is no 'higher' or 'lower' in tantra. A good question for you Hanna is what does 'highest' mean here? Can you unpack it? Does it mean 'more appropriate' or 'less appropriate' or does it depend? If it depends, well, we come back again to the question -- what does it mean? Be deeply honest about it means. When you unpack the meaning of it, you may find that the notion starts to break down.
Is it really anything more than an assertion of status for those who practice it?
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2007 : 8:40:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogibear
quote:
When I have an orgasm in my heart or ajna, the sex is EXTENDED, not sublimated or transcended. I'm not even consciously practicing tantra, but every step of the spiritual path beyond a certain point feels like hotter and hotter sex and orgasm.
Wow, Jim, I am happy for you. Enjoy! I am sure you are.
No, I'm not, actually. I didn't get into this for thrills or buzz. That stuff is exciting and distracting, whereas I seek clarity and peace. Here's a great treatment of the issue: http://www.aypsite.org/258.html
It's turbulence to work through- part of the "experiences" Yogani warns not to attach to. You identify with your silence, not with the scenery (even if the scenery is endless ecstacy). As you attain more and more silence, the sirens get more seductive and one's desires grow more powerful. But it's all just stuff. Keep letting go into silence (which roils it up still more...but eventually you instinctually react with detachment as a knee jerk habit). |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Aug 11 2007 8:47:29 PM |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Aug 15 2007 : 2:40:22 PM
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Hi Jim,
Thanks for the link.
I feel so bad for you and this lady. I have great sympathy for you both. How terrible it must be for you!
Seriously, I think that you and the lady have a great ability, one that a lot of people would love to have as they are progressing to higher states. It is curious to me that you consider it to be a negative or pain in the butt.
Who wouldn't like to have a built in IV of opiods dripping into their blood stream on demand. Think of all the people who have chronic pain and the decrease of suffering and the increase of health and well being on the planet that would occur. You could just kind of modulate it so that it is there but not interfering with your functioning. And you just feel good like a human being should.
I would think that having this pleasure in side of yourself would create a feeling of contentment and increase inner silence as the feeling of fulfillment within would decrease a lot of chasing around after stuff inorder to be happy, because you already feel good from within and you let go of seeking happiness.
Anyways, don't you have to have a parallel amount of inner silence inorder to have the experience you are describing?
I don't know. May be when I get to feeling things as intensely as you describe, I will have the same attitude.
Wishing you continued suffering, yb. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Aug 15 2007 : 5:13:12 PM
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From where I sit now, sex is everything that has an ego involved. Sex is not IT. Never has been, never will be. As soon as you are there to take pleasure from it, it's sex. Making love is sacred in the sense that you are making love to the opposite pole of the universal principles of feminine and masculine. A woman manifested in existence is but an extention of the female principle, stemming from the Source, the One, the nothingness. A man manifested physically in living on earth is only an extention of the male principle stemming from the absolute emptiness. In order to celebrate that constant ongoing copulation betweent the poles, we as manifested beings must leave behind the mind, the ego and the self conciderations implying wanting, needing, cunning to get pleasure out of a sexual experience. Playing with energies goes a long way - ego can take great pleasure from different types of advanced tantra exercises. It can however never follow to the union of the divine HE and SHE. You can surely make that marriage inside yourself, but boy - until you unite in physical manifestation there's no real celebration. When man and woman make love in stillness and truth the cosmos transforms. Every single man and woman making true love is a blessing to the universe.
And ego wont be there experiencing it. Can't be. IT will be love experiencing itself. Pure love.
During the "process" of getting there, there will be a mix of sex and increasing stillness bringing greater glimpses of true love. Sex will diminish since truth is so much more interesting. Sex is distortion of the mind to relieve the fear of the unknown. It freaks the mind to go into the depths. Sex is a quick fix and relief. Sex is mind made, showing up as the potential for true divine love, but that's all it is. A potential.
True love involves penis in vagina, not to make anyone believe there will be no physical contact. The flesh is the wonder of the universe. Itself sensing itself through manifested matter. Beautiful. |
Edited by - emc on Aug 15 2007 5:18:24 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Aug 16 2007 : 12:31:14 PM
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quote:
Seriously, I think that you and the lady have a great ability
It's not helpful IMO to think of the spiritual path as adding abilities, like saying I've accomplished the ability to speak French or to mambo dance. This path is subtractive, not additive. It's about clearing mud off windows, reducing noise, casting off delusions. Accomplishments conflate Me. The spiritual path is about less me and more silence (or God, or The Flow, or whatever).
Any notion of my individual merit or progress or achievement is conflationary - including any conflationary feeling of accomplishment for achieving subtractiveness! That's just a backdoor way to the same problem. It's one reason I sit down to my daily practice with the attitude that I'm letting the Cosmic Barber trim my hair. I'm out of it entirely (and if it doesn't "work", we can all blame Him!). Otherwise, the more the practices melt Me into it all, the more separate I become as I point at the action and think to myself "look how much progress I've made!". It's the chief irony (and trap) of this path. Many (most?) seekers inadvertantly stoke their delusion of separateness by exactly that ironic mechanism.
Listen, the thin veneer of my ego mind (it's that thin for all of us, though a bit less opaque for those who practice or have been graced) will very gladly accept the compliment. Hey, look at my spiritual advancement! But that veneer, which always wants to both manage and to seek credit, had nothing to do with it. While my ego swells with pride, my emptiness throbs blithely. Thinking my ego mind has gloriously completed the task of loosening the binds of ego mind is an archetypal example of the deviousness of ego mind (and that sound you hear is the binding tightening). I don't want to kill the ego mind (it's useful - even necessary!), I just don't want to be enslaved to it.
Of course, even the chattering ego mind is a product of silence (NOTHING is not "in it") but I don't fully feel that yet, so I continue to express it in these dualistic terms.
quote:
Who wouldn't like to have a built in IV of opiods dripping into their blood stream on demand.
I, who am not in acute physical pain, find the very notion of that repulsive. But, hey, different strokes...
quote:
Wishing you continued suffering
Ha. But I'm not suffering. Just realizing that further transcendence (or silence, or non-attachment, or whatever you want to call it) is necessary......and also that seeking an end result - e.g. a vein full of opiates or ability to say you've reached a given benchmark in your practice - feeds the tyrant and sticks you in the mud. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Aug 16 2007 9:40:59 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 16 2007 : 7:24:51 PM
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| I have a friend who has exactly that; morphine patches 24/7. She's not at all happy about it, but she is happy to have refused 25 other drugs the doctors want her to take. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4513 Posts |
Posted - Sep 30 2007 : 04:33:45 AM
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Hi Hanna,
quote:
Samaya is a form of tantra, the highest form. It incorporates the guru chakra, mantra, and is completely internal. What has become popular is the kaula form of tantra, which is the lowest form and is often associated with sex or sexual energies. It works, but it is simply a lower form.
I know it is a bit of a personal question but do you practice lower tantra? Or do you only practice higher tantra, and if so which forms? If you don't practice lower tantra, does that mean you are celibate?
Christi |
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