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gentlep
USA
114 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 26 2007 : 3:02:45 PM
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I was reading "Loving What is" by Byron Katie in which she says, in my own words about what she said, we don't make decisions and they are just made by themselves. And it's after the fact that the thought comes to us saying we made the decisions and this thought causes misery or happiness depending on the outcome of the decision. So we shouldn't stress ourself about trying to make any decisions and just enjoy what is.
Makes sense but still I find it hard to let go e.g. thinking about saving for kids education, retirement, vacation planning and also about short term decisions e.g.what groceries to bring, not forget kids medication, milk etc.
What do you think? |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2007 : 01:19:14 AM
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Hi gentlep,
On the one hand, I don't agree with her that decisions just happen. I weigh the positive or negative consequences of the actions I am contemplating. I make my decisions. I choose. I take responsiblity for what I do. I think that the notion that you are not in control is problematic, confusing and weakening. It retards growth.
On the other, I do agree with not stressing about decisions and enjoying what is.
In a parallel fashion, Eckhart Tolle says that thinking happens and that we do not think of our own volition. I think that this is both true and untrue. There are thousands of random thoughts occurring thru out any given day that are non-volitional from my point of view. But I am the thinker as well and I don't believe that, for example, the thoughts that I am expressing right now are just happening and not of my own volition.
Tolle says that his entire ego structure collapsed when he was struck by the absurdity of the notion that there were two of him. "I just can't go on living with myself like this" is what he was saying to himself in the depths of his suffering. He was right. There is only one of him.
I am me. I am myself. I am I. My sense of self. A radical non dual ego. 
But this is just my point of view, which could change at anytime based on direct experience or some sound reasoning or argument coming from someone else.
Maybe from the point of view of the witness this is the truth. But I don’t have that perspective so it isn’t true for me.
I know there are a few aspirants on the site that study Katie and maybe they can shed more light on the subject.
Katie says, "Love what is." Tolle says, "Accept what is." These are decisions, aren't they?
But when it really happens, I don't think it is a decision, I think it is a realization. Then "it" happens.
Disclaimer:
I didn't think these thoughts myself nor did I make the decision to express them in this post. They just happened. So I cannot be held responsible for any consequences.....or inaccuracies....or lack of insight.
Best to all, yb.
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Edited by - yogibear on Jul 27 2007 1:58:08 PM |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2007 : 03:51:49 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogibear
Disclaimer:
I didn't think these thoughts myself nor did I make the decision to express them in this post. They just happened. So I cannot be held responsible for any consequences.
Best to all, yb.
^^^ cheater 
... but I agree a lot with your point of view 
but then, I am not an expert on Katie ...
Love and Light
Wolfgang |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2007 : 10:14:16 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by gentlep
Makes sense but still I find it hard to let go e.g. thinking about saving for kids education, retirement, vacation planning and also about short term decisions e.g.what groceries to bring, not forget kids medication, milk etc.
What do you think?
Hi Gentlep,
This is a very common confusion that arise in us. Once people are enlightened/realized they will look at us and say.. "don't worry/think about the past and future.. just live in the Now.. and everything else will flow, all decisions will be made for you and everything will work out perfectly."
Last year I was introduced to "Loving What is" and "Power of Now". I remember being confused beyond words at the idea of living in the present. Stop thinking? Stop planning? Let things flow? It was beyond me.. I actually tried to control my mind and stop thinking.. which is really ridiculous (and BTW I had a mind that worked overtime.. never once took a break.. jumped from one thing to the next and actually completely controlled my everyday not living :)).. because what the mind is designed for is "thinking". That is what it does. That is what its job is. And telling the mind to stop thinking is like telling the heart to stop beating.
So what was the solution (for me)?
The first thing that helped was this thread..
Self-Inquiry -- A Practice Between our Meditations
Around the same time I started doing "The Work". Of course continued with my practice. Then somewhere along the way and not sure exactly when I did learn to watch my mind. It is not something that happened to me overnight like Tolle and Katie. It took about a year for me to see changes. But it did happen. That is what I have talked about in these posts.
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=2658#23474
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=2658#23424
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=2738#24236
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=2794
All of these are sorta kinda related, because they all explain in some way what changes I have been observing in myself.
The main thing that helped me would be:
quote:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=2658#23474
Couple of things that helped me with this:
Tolle and people at the forum say.. "Live in the Now".. it was a challenge.. and I went through a period of frustration trying to do that. Till I realized.. (and this is my understanding of the "Now".. I may be wrong.. but it has helped me.).. living in the present did not mean "Lock" your mind to the present. You can still think of the past.. good and bad.. but don't live in the past. Think about the future.. plan for the future.. but I don't build castles in the air.. Future includes later this afternoon, tomorrow, a week from today, your retirement.. make a list of to-dos, a plan... but don't get attached to that list.. If things don't go as planned.. accept and let go.
Katie's statement.. "When you argue with reality, you lose 100 percent of the time".
I have never managed to change the reality of things (and believe me I tried).. good or bad.. and if I ever did succeed in changing something.. it was my false sense of control (like when the child with the toy steering wheel turns left and his father happens the turn the car left at the same time.. he thinks he is controlling the car). Resisting/clinging/arguing/closing up(in fear of being hurt)/fighting reality, has never helped.. and never will.
So the best you can do is (I hope you are not tired of hearing the same thing again and again).. watch life unfold, allow, accept and let go...
Everyone is different and what worked for me may not work for you. All I would like to say is don't expect miracles of waking up one day and knowing how to identify your mind (Hey it may happen to you.. wake up one morning and you know it all.. and if it does, Great!). Baby steps. Like everything else in Yoga.. Baby steps help. Just start with one small thing of self-inquiry. Like Katie. Keep up your practice. Don't expect anything from either one (self inquiry or your practice)... Have faith. Not expecting, having faith, being open, allowing... are all about letting go. And one day you will see yourself observing small things about your mind.. then bigger.. then even bigger... till you come to a point where you can actually smile at it and enjoy watching it and know you are not your mind. The mind is doing what it is supposed to do.. think. It is up to us to decide how much we would like to get entangled into these Mind stories (and I know it is a difficult thing to "get" right now.. "mind stories".. but have faith and pick on one thing that you feel comfortable with and stick to it... and you will see.). And starting with baby steps and being kind and gentle to yourself will definitely do the trick rather than be hard on yourself because we just don't "get it".
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Edited by - Shanti on Jul 27 2007 10:18:07 AM |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2007 : 3:32:43 PM
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Hi Shanti,
Myself, I like to think that my sense of control is true. I don't mind to be the child because I am the child. I just drop any resistance more or less successfully when Dad goes left and I go right.
There is a formula from Ken Keyes, author of the Handbook to Higher Consciousness:
Ask for what you want.
Enjoy what you get.
Work on any difference.
Simple. No force, no resistance. Most of the time, anyways.
I think there are many things that we truly have control over. But there are probably many more things that we falsely think we have control over. In addition, there are things that we falsely think we don't have control over. I guess the trick is to be accurate about which is which. The better your power of discrimination, the less useless resistance you will have to what is.
Like the evil aliens invaders used to say in those 1950s B movies, "RESISTANCE IS FUTILE, you puny earthlings!"
I just love that. They really got it right!
But then again, maybe we are just puny earthlings with no will of our own, unconsciously controlled by evil alien warlords.
Thanks for the self inquiry thread, Shanti. It was really good. Didn't get to read the other ones yet.
btw, could you or anyone tell me what are Katie's 4 questions?
Much appreciation, yb. |
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gentlep
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2007 : 4:33:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogibear
btw, could you or anyone tell me what are Katie's 4 questions?
Hi yogibear,
Check her website www.thework.com. That has all the info, the 4 questions, the worksheet and videos. |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2007 : 01:07:13 AM
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| Thanks, gentlep. I will check it out. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2007 : 10:04:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogibear
Hi Shanti,
Myself, I like to think that my sense of control is true. I don't mind to be the child because I am the child. I just drop any resistance more or less successfully when Dad goes left and I go right.
There is a formula from Ken Keyes, author of the Handbook to Higher Consciousness:
Ask for what you want.
Enjoy what you get.
Work on any difference.
Simple. No force, no resistance. Most of the time, anyways.
Hi YB,
Thank you.
I think most of us here are looking for a way to find peace and happiness. I feel, there is really no wrong way. All ways will finally lead to the same place.. they are all road maps leading to the same destination. What works for me may work for some and may not work for others. Its just a matter of sharing what works for you and letting people decide if it seems like something that could help them.
I really appreciate you sharing what works for you. And you never know who will read it.. and whose life will change with your words.
Thank you again. |
Edited by - Shanti on Jul 28 2007 10:25:03 AM |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2007 : 10:36:26 AM
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Hi All:
There are a variety of ways to go about self inquiry, all based on the concept that thoughts are objects we can choose to identify with or not. But who is choosing? It is a relationship between the intellect (that which discriminates, or chooses) and our awareness behind that.
If our awareness has not risen to know thoughts as objects, then it will not be so simple with any system of inquiry, and the choosing will be much more encumbered with the perception, "I am these thoughts."
We are not the thoughts, of course, but try and tell that to someone who has little inner silence -- the witness. And therein lies the key point in all self inquiry, the cultivation of inner silence. Without it, doing self inquiry will be like trying to bake a cake with no flour -- not much of a cake.
That's why, in AYP, deep meditation is regarded to be the primary prerequisite for self inquiry. That hasn't been mentioned much in the several self inquiry topics going on in the forums at the moment, so thought to take the opportunity to remind. It is especially important for newcomers who may not be familiar with where all this budding self inquiry is coming from. It is bubbling out from stillness, like everything else.
The guru is in you.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2007 : 10:44:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
We are not the thoughts, of course, but try and tell that to someone who has little inner silence -- the witness. And therein lies the key point in all self inquiry, the cultivation of inner silence. Without it, doing self inquiry will be like trying to bake a cake with no flour -- not much of a cake.
That's why in AYP, deep meditation is regarded to be the primary prerequisite for self inquiry. That hasn't been mentioned much in the several self inquiry topics going on in the forums at the moment, so thought to take the opportunity to remind. It is especially important for newcomers who may not be familiar with where all this budding self inquiry is coming from. It is bubbling out from stillness, like everything else.
The guru is in you.
... and I will agree with Yogani. That is what I meant by
quote:
Baby steps help. Just start with one small thing of self-inquiry. Like Katie. Keep up your practice. Don't expect anything from either one (self inquiry or your practice)... Have faith. Not expecting, having faith, being open, allowing... are all about letting go.
"keep up your practice".. I guess I was not clear which practice.. Meditation and pranayama. Without inner silence self-inquiry is hard to "get".
Thank you Yogani for clarifying this. |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2007 : 2:51:43 PM
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Hi Shanti,
quote:
Shanti wrote:
Hi YB,
Thank you.
I think most of us here are looking for a way to find peace and happiness. I feel, there is really no wrong way. All ways will finally lead to the same place.. they are all road maps leading to the same destination. What works for me may work for some and may not work for others.
No argument from me. I am with you 100%. If you are a human being you cannot help but evolve. We are all wired for it. And so individual in the way we go about it at the same time.
quote:
Shanti wrote:
I really appreciate you sharing what works for you. And you never know who will read it.. and whose life will change with your words.
Thank you again.
Wow, thanks, Shanti. It is gratifying to me that you find some merit in my posts and that you think that someone might be helped by them. I know that there is a lot of outer noise in them, but there is maybe a smidge of inner silence in them too, if you can read between the lines, which I think you are good at.
I appreciate your contributions very much as well.
Wish you well, yb.
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Edited by - yogibear on Jul 28 2007 3:03:32 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2007 : 04:46:18 AM
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quote:
Makes sense but still I find it hard to let go e.g. thinking about saving for kids education, retirement, vacation planning and also about short term decisions e.g.what groceries to bring, not forget kids medication, milk etc.
What do you think?
I agree, it is very difficult to understand how daily life can be lived without all those decisions. Think of just driving a car... You think you need a lot of concentration and you need to be in control and make decisions all the time of when to change gears, watch out for the rest of the traffic etc. I drive the car, that's the feeling of it.
Now, I know Yogani's metaphore for the spiritual path is driving a car, and many phrases have been used to describe the fact that "you are actually not in control, driving that car!"
Now, I took that metaphore seriously and literally the other day while driving a long distance!  Absolutely wonderful to get into stillness and realize "I don't drive this car anyway!" Total trust needed of course in that situation, total non-fear of death in that moment, cause if the experiment would fail I'd be in a car crash! But I did it! Haha! I just let go of controlling that car, and it went sooooooooo smoooooooooth!!!!! Car with body in it was moving. That was all. And it was wonderful. No decisions made! Car moved perfectly. I watched. Mile after mile.
So I guess that milk will be bought whether you decide to do it or not!  |
Edited by - emc on Jul 30 2007 04:48:28 AM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2007 : 05:02:23 AM
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I have a friend who also thought like this about driving his car. He relates how he was driving around blind bends on the wrong side of the road. He said he just knew he was ok.
He's still alive to tell the tale and maybe that says something or not, maybe he was just lucky. (maybe he can comment on it himself if he is reading this  )
If you are going to experiment with this kind of thing, it is recommended you don't do it whilst driving a lethal weapon which could kill and/or maim you and many others if you don't quite get it right.
my 2 cents
Louis |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Aug 17 2007 : 4:19:27 PM
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"If you are going to experiment with this kind of thing, it is recommended you don't do it whilst driving a lethal weapon which could kill and/or maim you and many others if you don't quite get it right."
When else could you find out that you are not driving the car? You have to dare to take risks to try your faith or knowing. You have to let go and let God. You have to understand that nobody ever dies if there would be an accident. You have to understand that you are THAT which is driving the car and IT never makes any mistakes. Or else you will be trapped in your mind for a while longer. And that is perfectly fine as well!
It is a self regulating thing. When you are afraid in that situation the ego will grip the wheel tight and stay in (false) control to make sure nothing happens. LOL! When you shift identity into THAT, the hands still grip the wheel and movement occurs. Without movement, no living, no earth, no nothing. Movement creates the world as a reflection. Otherwise there would be just stillness.
Stillness in action is it. Otherwise there would be only emptiness.
Human beings. We are actually only timeless beings, but movement makes us timebound humans in this existence. Thus, human beings.
Dare to challange the living as human in order to find life as being! It's a coming home. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Aug 20 2007 : 6:36:16 PM
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Hi emc
I seemed to miss this for a while.
quote:
When else could you find out that you are not driving the car?
When you first practice it on something else like walking the dog or chopping carrots or moving a cup up to your mouth.
Then its time to move to something like a car - in my, not so humble, opinion
Actually your example about the car triggered memories of conversations with people about driving cars. I would often practice mindfulness whilst driving, but on saying this to some people they have gotten quite alarmed saying, if they meditated whilst driving they would crash. So its different strokes for different folks. My concern is that someone might mis-construe what you are saying and do some damage.
quote:
Without movement, no living, no earth, no nothing. Movement creates the world as a reflection. Otherwise there would be just stillness.
Stillness in action is it. Otherwise there would be only emptiness
I really love this, thank you.
I have been trying to integrate what you have being saying, and I think also what Katrine has been saying in:http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....ID=2836#2836
Can you give me any insight on how I would integrate what you are saying with mindfulness?
Love, Louis
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 20 2007 : 7:37:00 PM
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| Of course mindfulness is different from many other meditations. But it is the proper one to use while driving. If you don't analyze or tell stories; but just be very aware and react, you will be a very good driver without any effort. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Aug 21 2007 : 08:15:26 AM
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| Louis, the way Bernie led us into it was to feel your feet. You are where your feet are. Who is feeling your feet? That's who you really are! Identify with nothing else but the feeling of your feet. Stay with the feeling. Awareness of that sensation is the base. What you feel is in the now and can't be anything else. It is your being that is aware of the sense-perception. Identify with that which is aware of that. Be aware of the awareness. That feeling grew for me until I totally realized I am not my body. I am what "feels" through the body-vehicle. I am looking out from my body. I am nothing but space, I am nobody but awareness, but I have a body-mind vehicle which through movement and sense-perception is creating existence. And since we're all connected and one, I am able to experience what anyone else is experiencing. It is I who sense the AaaaaaaaaaHHHHHHHH when the fly is killed, It is I who sense the wind blowing through the leaves of the tree, It is I who sense my cheek when I as the wind strokes it gently. Everything is the other way around. My ego is suddenly not the center of the world. I am. And I am both an individual being and the One, since all multiplicity is stemming from The One. Competition is therefore silly. Comparison is silly. All self-concern is silly. Ahimsa is natural. Although death is a celebration, and killing is a part of existence, ahimsa is the compelling ethic for some reason. Why kill an appearance, a reflection, another being mirroring life? |
Edited by - emc on Aug 21 2007 09:43:04 AM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Aug 21 2007 : 12:17:24 PM
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Hi emc
As I read down through your words I just went deeper and deeper into meditation.
quote:
My ego is suddenly not the center of the world. I am. And I am both an individual being and the One,
In your use of "I am", does this equate to Soul or Spirit in any way, or is this something different?
quote:
ahimsa is the compelling ethic for some reason
I was also intrigued by this statement and since I am doing a little study of NVC (non-violent communication) I came across this passage:
"What is Nonviolence?
It is more than "not being physically violent.” Nonviolence represents a way of being in the world. The two related terms that Ghandi wrote about are the Sanskrit, “ahimsa”, which means “harmlessness” and “satyagraha” which translates as “the force of truth.” So the spirit of nonviolence (ahimsa) means that when I am in contact with any life form my message to that life, in thought, word and deed is, “I will not harm you. I will not violate the integrity of your being.” I am guided by my awareness of the force of truth (satyagraha) because I sense in the depth of my being that all human beings are only trying to fulfill life-giving, universal values and needs. With this awareness, I know that any form of communication, no matter how hostile, critical or judgmental it seems, is an attempt to express unmet needs, values and desires. When I tune into these needs and values I see only life trying to fulfill itself. I do not see or hear the life alienating images or thoughts, I see and hear only feelings and needs."
It seems that you might also be talking about this term "satyagraha" which Ghandi talked of, the force of truth.?
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Aug 21 2007 : 5:23:48 PM
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Yes, Louis! Oh, thank you so much for that quote on NVC! It increased understanding even more! The force of Truth is it! It's a force obeyed. The love of it melts all resistance.
quote:
I am guided by my awareness of the force of truth (satyagraha) because I sense in the depth of my being that all human beings are only trying to fulfill life-giving,- - -When I tune into these needs and values I see only life trying to fulfill itself.
That's it!
I haven't got a clue about the soul and spirit. The meaning of those terms are so diverse and I have never used the terms before, never knew the difference. I know myself as being. And I know I am one and absolutely equal to all other beings and manifestations on this sacred Earth. That's about it, for now.
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