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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 19 2007 : 11:43:38 PM
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Hi All,
I was asked about experiences of Samadhi in another thread, and thought I'd post here, so that more of us can participate. I'd also appreciate the input of others who have, or do, experience Samadhi, so that any reading this who do not experience Samadhi as of yet, may be able to form a more clear sense of what Samadhi is all about.
Like many aspects of yoga, Samadhi is paradoxically both more and less (amazing, powerful, important, etc.) than many practitioners tend to expect.
And please note: I can really only speak to my own experience; as of yet, Samadhi is not measurable by any means other reports of those who have experienced it.
Probably the most important thing I can say about Samadhi is:
Samadhi is not so much something that happens, or that is attained, as something that "un-happens" ... enough dream-barriers finally fall away, that we experience being "tossed" into the ocean of limitless beingness that is our true nature, home and self.
As glorious as the experience can be, it also comes to be experienced as consummately normal (albeit very enjoyably so ... our mind finally gets to experience the adoration and celebration of That which is infinitely more vast than itself; yet is itself ... much like a city-dwelling dog allowed to run free on a farm. Much fun, all around.  )
Like so many other "things yogic", if you're striving for Samadhi, or badly want it, you're probably actually pushing it away. I'm not positive I did this, but pretty sure I did. When I relaxed, let go, and became truly willing to be led or shown ... the mist dissolved, and Samadhi became part of my daily practice.
Samadhi is a natural outcome of yogic practice; if you haven't experienced it, you will.
If you have been practicing AYP, or a similar type of yoga for more than a few months, and especially if you experience inner silence, you are:
A. Quite possibly closer to Samadhi than you know.
B. Realizing a good majority of all benefits stemming from Samadhi, already.
Samadhi has two fundamental divisions:
Savikalpa - with seed.
Nirvikalpa - without seed.
"Seed" refers to seeds of karma, still extant and created, any time there is still enough mind-oscillation to retain a sense of self (and I'm not offering any insight concerning this, on any level; I'm simply explaining what the Sanskrit terms mean).
A good 98%-99% of all Samadhi I have, and do, experience has been Savikalpa Samadhi (point being: often, once we realize a "peak", in this case, Nirvikalpa Samadhi, in yoga, we realize that it is available, and thus, proceed based on inner guidance, more than any seeking for the state which is thought of as "most" or "best").
It (our personal sadhana / practice) really, really, really is about the journey and not the destination.
Most of us can't remember the first time we experienced such-and-such a (so-called) milestone; the "milestones" just happen when they do, and ... you keep going.
Focusing on the magnitude or magnificence of any attainment (yogic or otherwise) is simply a good recipe for trouble.
Samadhi is much LESS of a big deal than maintaining daily practice (which will help the mists and mud clear enough, for you to become aware of your Samadhi nature).
Having said all that, it's not minor, either -- i.e. if you're wondering whether or not you've experienced Samadhi - you haven't. If you have, and there was still a you experiencing it, it was Savikalpa, not Nirvikalpa. And if it never stops (if selfless awareness has resolved into the steady-state bliss-peace Yogani speaks of) well then ... Welcome Home. 
So, yes, Samadhi (all "flavors", and their sub-divisions) are decent benchmarks or milestones ... though at the same time, it is critical to remember:
Realization is not an experience; Realization is awareness of who you are and have always been, in reality.
It took me quite a while, and until very recently, to get this; really (if ya don't believe me, check out some of my "ecstatic about ecstasy" and/or "trippin' about Kechari" posts from last year).
Forget accomplishment.
Forget attainment.
Forget samadhi.
Open your heart.
Let go.
Be Willing.
Allow.
And of course, most important of all:
When in doubt, LOVE.
When not in doubt, LOVE.
Love, Let Go, Practice Daily -- everything else will take care of itself; and in all likelihood, faster, more gloriously and more powerfully than currently limited perspective can even dream.
I really am just "some guy", whose life really has been anything but exemplary, at least for most of it ... how did I get to be so fortunate, as to be able to write this post from a place of experience and actual awareness?
I somehow tripped into a few years of consistent yoga practice, and my heart was sincere.
When I was having a rough time, and couldn't center in that sincere heart, I learned that it is enough to be "willing to be willing".
Nothing more.
Nothing more.
Life wants us to win.
Do you get this?
If you are reading this post, you know of AYP. If you know of AYP, you can practice AYP. If you practice AYP, you're rolling downhill with increasing speed, straight toward the home you never left.
If you are reading this post, please know that you are in a position where realizing enlightenment in not the miracle; no kidding.
If you don't realize enlightenment; that will be the miracle.
No kidding.
Your life; it's yours to lose.
Go for it.
Jai Hridayam,
Kirtanman
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2007 : 11:11:58 AM
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Hmmmm interesting. Can you write sth about how your daily life outside practices has changed if at all
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2007 : 11:42:18 AM
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"Like so many other "things yogic", if you're striving for Samadhi, or badly want it, you're probably actually pushing it away."
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Corollary: as you pass through a bunch of those "things yogic", and discover (through actual experience) that you must give up to get (and let go to get on), it starts accelerating. Nonattachment sounds very noble and profound, and in a sense it is. But the basic kneejerk reaction of nonattachment is almost mundane. It's very much like learning to steer into a skid rather than (per instinct) against one. As that instinct/reaction is cultivated (actually, it's more "unearthed" than "cultivated" - from underneath all the tons of grasping we've ever done in our lives), things start getting juicy.
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When I relaxed, let go, and became truly willing to be led or shown
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For me it feels a bit "hotter" than that, per the first and third stanzas in this poem
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=1189
The poem's about seva, but, really (as you know), it's all just one big ball. Seva is samadhi is kundalini is self is god is yoga is yama is mantra....etc.......
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"Seed" refers to seeds of karma, still extant and created, any time there is still enough mind-oscillation to retain a sense of self (and I'm not offering any insight concerning this, on any level; I'm simply explaining what the Sanskrit terms mean).
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For me, the seed, the karma, the attachment, the ego mind....all of these are ways of describing whatever has not yet "let go and let god". It's not stuff separate from God, it's just the points of resistence-from-itself. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jun 20 2007 11:55:43 AM |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2007 : 1:30:44 PM
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Hi,
My experiences of samadhi.
Haapens very often when I'm sitting just about anywhere, drifting off even when talking with others sometimes.Mainly all the time during meditation, a blank canvas, like in a comatose state aware of nothing around yet still something triggers the awakening state when the time is right.
L&L
Dave |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2007 : 11:12:11 AM
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Hi Kirtanman!
Thank you for your posts. I haven’t had the time until now to devote some serious attention to them.
The main determining factors of Samadhi are: a peace that is difficult to disrupt; a vast peace which extends infinitely and eternally; any sense of border or limitation falls away. Blissful stillness.
Tolle said that he experienced an 80% reduction in thought and that the labeling habit is greatly reduced if not gone. Is it that way with you? He says that the amount of inner silence is a direct measure of spiritual progress. Sounds like Yogani.
“The peace that passeth all understanding.” I think that is from Jesus.
What is your experience of ecstatic conductivity?
When I think of it I think of Ramakrishna barely able to stay upright with every hair on his body standing on end.
To me, if you could see it, it would be like the snow you see in the tv set except that all the little particles are particles of pleasure. That is how I experience it. This is what I feel presently. It is accumulating. My body is like a container with no leaks. So it is building up.
I think I experienced I AM’s hug for the first time last nite during meditation. It is hard to describe but it is like a coordinated synergistic simultaneous occurrence of all the mudras and bandhas with the ecstatic conductivity simmering and buzzing gently thru out my body. It seemed like a general squeezing in an upward direction occurring in my body. When I was lying down for relaxation after meditating, I couldn’t wipe the smile off my face.
The ec is starting to become more and more an aspect of my normal experience. I think it is pretty physical type of ec.
Pretty low voltage compared to Ramakrishna who would fall to the ground he would become so blissed out. But it is a start.
What is your experience of this type of thing?
Not 24/7, not 100%, but probably at least 75% more so than I was even a few months back. Guessing, here ... here, now 90%-95% of the time, now.
That is pretty darn good. I had an experience of higher consciousness once. I achieved it thru meditation and spinal breathing and a few other things. One aspect of it was my experience of the now. That is why I asked you about your experience of the now. It was overwhelming, for me. It was intense. It was so different than my ordinary state where it is so easy to day dream and become lost in the memory and imagination. But in that state, I could not get lost in the past or future because they literally did not exist. They only existed in thought and since I experienced my thoughts and feelings in a very detached way as something like clouds passing thru the sky, they were devoid of the reality that they formerly possessed. The now was the only real thing.
Lead me from unreality to reality,
Lead me from darkness to light,
Lead me from death to life.
Om, peace, peace, peace.
I woke up from the dream of the past and future. From unreality. But I fell asleep. Must have hit the snooze and dozed off again.
“In the sky of your mind you are the sun.” This is how I experienced myself at that time. 5-10x as alive as I normally am. Nothing but now. Very intense now.
Not overwhelmed; not underwhelmed.
Just happily, garden-variety "whelmed".
Perhaps it would be less extraordinary to me if it was my normal state like you.
My teacher told me that this was a “lower to middle experience.” He did not say that it was a state of Samadhi or a state of dhyana. So I have always regarded it as a state of at least dhyana.
Disruption of peace is the very, very infrequent exception, rather than the way of life.
It sounds like you have achieved a significant rewiring of your nerves so that the environment has a hard time accessing your sympathetic fight or flight system. Using the Handbook to Higher Consciousness’ model of the chakras or “centers of consciousness”, and what you describe as your normal waking state, it sounds like you experience life from the fourth, fifth and sixth centers which basically translates into acceptance, faith and witnessing. That is what I get from your description. The seventh center is oneness, the total eradiction of the separate self. I am really happy for you and hope to join you there when my karma permits.
b]A good 98%-99% of all Samadhi I have, and do, experience has been Savikalpa Samadhi (point being: often, once we realize a "peak", in this case, Nirvikalpa Samadhi, in yoga, we realize that it is available, and thus, proceed based on inner guidance, more than any seeking for the state which is thought of as "most" or "best").[/b]
I have these ideas of what Samadhi is based on what I have read in the past. Hence they are a little naïve, black and white and probably inaccurate.
Achieving Nirvikalpa Samadhi is the equivalent of Moksha, liberation, the free soul as all the seeds are burned. There is no more karma. It has been neutralized. It is not that you do not continue to create karma, it is just that you are free of it and no longer bound by it. Therefore once there, you have achieved the goal of life. Is that how you understand it?
Also, I have these concepts of periods of time that are assigned to the 6th 7th sand 8th steps of Raja Yoga. 12 seconds equals one period of dharana, 12x12 equals one period of dhyana and 12x12x12 equals one period of Samadhi.
I got these periods from reading Vivekananda about 30 years ago. I tried to find it lately but haven't as of yet. Another author used 7 seconds. I think it was Isherwood and Prabhavanada. I don’t see these time periods mentioned in AYP. I suppose from the perspective of higher consciousness there would be no concern about this and one would not be aware of it anyways since these are states devoid of psychological time, but still I know that I read these when I studied the Sutras.
"As Adyashanti says about awareness of Presence, "It's not a special awareness, it's not a holy awareness; it's regular old 'awareness-awareness.'"
There is a story of the Buddha shortly after he got done sitting under the bodhi tree:
He was walking down the road and a man, struck by his extraordinary radiance and presence asked him, “Sir, are you a god or a celestial being?”
The Buddha answered, “No.”
“Are you a wizard or a magician?”
“No.”
“Are you a man?”
“No.”
“Then what are you?”
The Buddha replied, “I am awake.”
How perfect. I love that. I just read it for the first time the other day. Probably a pretty common Buddha story but I thought it was so good.
What is the difference between the Pharaohs of old, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, Ramakrishna, Vivekananda, Yogananda and us? They were all powerhouses. What are they experiencing as a normal state of consciousness? Can one function from the Sahashrara or do you have to come down to the 6th center at least?
Is it different than what Adyashanti and Tolle talk about?
Have they achieved perfection, i.e., total enlightenment?
If you could meet Jesus or Buddha today, how would there radiance and presence compare with the teachers of today?
I have this description of Samadhi from Yogananda in Autobiography of a Yogi:
My body became immovably rooted; breath was drawn out of my lungs as if by some huge magnet. Soul and mind instantly lost their physical bondage, and streamed out like a fluid piercing light from my every pore. The flesh was as though dead, yet in my intense awareness I knew that never before had I been fully alive. My sense of identity was no longer narrowly confined to a body, but embraced the circumambient atoms. People on distant streets seemed to be moving gently over my own remote periphery. The roots of plants and trees appeared through a dim transparency of the soil; I discerned the inward flow of their sap.
The whole vicinity lay bare before me. My ordinary frontal vision was now changed to a vast spherical sight, simultaneously all perceptive. Through the back of my head I saw men strolling far down Rai Ghat Road, and noticed also a white cow who was leisurely approaching. When she reached the space in front of the open ashram gate, I observed her with my two physical eyes. As she passed by, behind the brick wall, I saw her clearly still.
All objects within my panoramic gaze trembled and vibrated like quick motion pictures. My body, Master's, the pillared courtyard, the furniture and floor, the trees and sunshine, occasionally became violently agitated, until all melted into a luminescent sea; even as sugar crystals, thrown into a glass of water, dissolve after being shaken. The unifying light alternated with materialisations of form, the metamorphoses revealing the law of cause and effect in creation.
An oceanic joy broke upon calm endless shores of my soul. The Spirit of God, I realized, is exhaustless Bliss; His body is countless tissues of light. A swelling glory within me began to envelop towns, continents, the earth, solar and stellar systems, tenuous nebulae, and floating universes. The entire cosmos, gently luminous, like a city seen afar at night, glimmered within the infinitude of my being. The sharply etched global outlines faded somewhat at the farthest edges; there I could see a mellow radiance, ever undiminished. It was indescribably subtle; the planetary pictures were formed of a grosser light.
The divine dispersion of rays poured from an Eternal Source, blazing into galaxies, transfigured with ineffable auras. Again and again I saw the creative beams condense into constellations, then resolve into sheets of transparent flame. By rhythmic reversion, sextillion worlds passed into diaphanous luster; fire became firmament.
I cognized the center of the empyrean as a point of intuitive perception in my heart. Irradiating splendor issued from my nucleus to every part of the universal structure. Blissful amrita, the nectar of immortality, pulsed through me with a quicksilver-like fluidity. The creative voice of God I heard resounding as Aum, the vibration of the Cosmic Motor.
Suddenly the breath returned to my lungs. With a disappointment almost unbearable, I realized that my infinite immensity was lost. Once more I was limited to the humiliating cage of a body, not easily accommodative to the Spirit. Like a prodigal child, I had run away from my macrocosmic home and imprisoned myself in a narrow microcosm.
What is that? Is that just purification? That sounds pretty special to me. And yet impermanent. Some state like that has been my concept of Samadhi up to know. What is the difference between that and what Adyashanti talks about? So there are all these thoughts regarding Samadhi and siddhis floating around in my mind and I am trying to sort them out and clarify my understanding of this.
Any thoughts, help on the subject is appreciated. Thanks again, Kirtanman for sharing your experience and perspective, yb.
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Edited by - yogibear on Jul 01 2007 7:12:27 PM |
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2007 : 9:52:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
... as of yet, Samadhi is not measurable by any means other reports of those who have experienced it.
This is not true. Samadhi is physically measurable by cessation of respiration and stopping of the heart rate. If you are still breathing and your heart is still beating that is not samadhi, although could be a prelude to it. |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2007 : 10:04:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogibear
“The peace that passeth all understanding.” I think that is from Jesus.
“Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which passes all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.”
-- St. Paul |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2007 : 10:38:49 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
It (our personal sadhana / practice) really, really, really is about the journey and not the destination.
Most of us can't remember the first time we experienced such-and-such a (so-called) milestone; the "milestones" just happen when they do, and ... you keep going.
Thanks Kirtanman,
I found that whole letter inspiring, and enjoyed the responses too.
Regards,
Bewell
"On grades of samadhi, you know, the Eskimos have many words for snow.
Why? Because they see so much of it, and have come to know its many
grades of manifestation. Do all these different words for snow mean
anything to a Hawaiian? Not much -- not until the Hawaiian goes and
lives with the Eskimos for a while. Then the words for snow begin to
make sense. Samadhi is like that. When it becomes the common
experience, then conversation about the different grades of samadhi
begins to make sense. Until then, to study all that is an academic
exercise. Does this promote enlightenment? Not really. Well, maybe it
can motivate one to do practices. That is the real value of
intellectual knowledge -- its ability to inspire action!"
Yogani, Lesson 248 http://www.aypsite.org/248.html |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2007 : 01:02:22 AM
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Originally posted by yogibear:
“The peace that passeth all understanding.” I think that is from Jesus.
Originally posted by bewell:
“Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which passes all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.”
-- St. Paul
Thanks for the link and the quote, bewell; knew I was in the ball park.
yb
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Christi
United Kingdom
4513 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2007 : 12:22:52 PM
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Hi Chiron,
quote:
quote:
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Originally posted by Kirtanman
... as of yet, Samadhi is not measurable by any means other reports of those who have experienced it.
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This is not true. Samadhi is physically measurable by cessation of respiration and stopping of the heart rate. If you are still breathing and your heart is still beating that is not samadhi, although could be a prelude to it.
I don't think you are right here. I have heard that in nirvikalpa samadhi the heart beat stops and the breath becomes suspended. I have only experienced this kind of samadhi once, and nobody had me wired up to any machines, so I don't know if this is true. I was certainly not conscious of my physical body at the time so I cannot say.
But there are many different levels of samadhi where the breathing continues and so does the heart beat. They may noticeably slow down but they don't stop. In fact in the lower states of samadhi (before entry into the pure mental, astral or celestial realms) the yogi is still aware of his or her physical body, so they know first hand that these physical functions are still going on. All the states of samadhi below nirvikalpa samadhi are called samvikalpa samadhi in yoga.
The whole thing becomes confusing because of a number of myths that go around. So here are some myths exposed:
Myth one: Samadhi is the highest state in yoga and once a yogi has attained this state they are enlightened.
This isn't true; we can (and do) enter samadhi many times without being in the least bit enlightened.
Myth two: Nirvikalpa samadhi is the highest state in yoga and once a yogi has attained this state they are enlightened.
This is also not true. It is possible to attain the highest state of samadhi (stage 8 by some counts) temporarily in a trance where consciousness is absorbed fully into the absolute. But it is possible to do this without being in the least bit enlightened. It does however (and did give me) a glimpse of ultimate being, an understanding of peace, bliss, and of the true nature of reality, and of the nature of our true (higher) self.
And it is true... it is a peace that surpasses just about everything, including our understanding.
Christi
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2007 : 11:20:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lili
Hmmmm interesting. Can you write sth about how your daily life outside practices has changed if at all
Hi Lili,
Good question; thanks.
My daily life has improved with roughly a 1:1 correlation to the recent expansion of experiences in my sitting practices.
Literally every relationship, every circumstance, every aspect of my life is experienced somewhere between "amazingly better" and "better than I could have dreamed possible in my wildest imaginings". Exactly as has been the case with practices, lately, also.
Hm.
From where I sit now, I don't see how it could be any other way.
When we truly experience the Self, and know by experience that this is who we really are, we also realize that all our suffering comes from disturbance in the ego-mind. I heard this for years, and conceptually somewhat-understood it, but basically had a hard time accepting that it could be true.
It is true, though far different in experience than we can imagine, prior to having the experience.
When the mud starts to settle down, and the water starts to become clear -- all the water starts to become clear; that which our ego thinks of as being "inside" us, and that which our ego thinks of as being "outside" us, or as being life circumstances that are happening to us.
Everything we experience from our ego-centric dream (the sense that "I" am this specific body-mind) is a distortion, a disturbance.
When the mud clears, or the waves settle down ... it all becomes much more peaceful, clear, beautiful and enjoyable. This includes perceptions, thoughts, feelings, experiences, relationships, aspects of life, and so on ... because all of the items in this list are mind-created definitions in the first place.
Yoga / Samadhi (yogash) is nothing more nor less than the settling (nirodhaH) of the disturbance-waves (vrtti) of our mind-field (chitta).
Hence the first (and complete) description in the Yoga Sutras, YS I.2:
Yogash Chitta-Vrtti-NirodhaH
Samadhi isn't a state we attain; it's the stilling of unnatural, conditioned disturbances, so that we can experience our Self as it is: as One, as Peace, as Love, as THIS.
And this is all a lot less mysterious than most of us have conditioned ourselves to expect and perceive.
Just see through the veils of misidentification with body, mind, perceptions, thoughts, feelings and so on. Just stop. Let everything quiet down.
This is where AYP comes in; it helps us to prepare our body-minds as a "Realization-Rich Environment"; awakening can happen without yoga practice, but yoga-practice certainly seems to make it a lot faster and easier, at least for most of us.
When everything quiets down enough, then the Self; pure Being, simply presents itself.
Then we simply know.
Ohhh ... THIS is who I am.
Wow.
Nothing to be afraid of. Nothing that could die. Nothing imperfect. Cool. Who knew? Hey, time to go grocery shopping, and get gas in the car. Cool.
Now, yes, there are often (certainly in my case), a few periods of copious tears of gratitude, spontaneous and extensive laughter, and sheer bathing in the wonder of it all ... but the essence of it is truly as described above. The other stuff, whether ecstatic, or emotion or energetic ... is just kind of ... punctuation, if you will.
The other night, I got lost on the way home from Atlanta (yes, a kirtan! ), and got pulled over, and got a speeding ticket. I was on the phone with my daughter afterward, and said, "It's funny, I just couldn't, and can't, bring myself to get upset ... at all; not even a little. When Adya used to say things like, "life still happens; you still get sick, there are issues at work, and so on ... you just don't care!' ... I thought that sounded kind of bland, or possibly unhealthy, a little ... but it's not bland; it's actually rather awesome."
She responded by saying, "Yeah, I don't always live what I know, spiritually, but I react to things emotionally a lot less than I used to."
To which I responded, "Yeah, that's one of the best things about this whole spiritual-yoga thing; ultimately, it's a One-Way path."
The only aspects that are as good, or better, that I can think of, at the moment, are:
1. Realizing Your True Nature as Stillness and PEACE.
2. Realizing that life and the benefits of yoga practice are at least a million times better than you ever could have imagined possible, and then having it made amazingly clear that they're actually a million times better than that. Over and Over and Over again.
Every religion and spiritual path points toward union / communion with God, aka Self-Realization. Every religion has at least a handful of examples of those who have "made it".
As Yogani has pointed out, the numbers of people who are realizing Self are increasing, all over the world.
The Self-Realization that we are discussing here is not different than that realized by the greatest saints and sages of the world, who have been revered and even worshipped throughout history.
Not.
Different.
The danger is not that you'll practice and not get results; the danger is that when the results do come, they'll be SO amazing, that you'll perceive yourself to be fully Realized before you are.
No Kidding.
In the Yoga Sutras, where every syllable is at a vast premium (per oral tradition; no writing - at the time ... hence the sutras being almost algebraic in their efficiency) - Patanjali devotes several sutras (in Chapter I, the Chapter on Samadhi) to issue a very clear and powerful warning, regarding the dynamic mentioned above.
That's how powerful yoga is.
And, FYI, it's not like I'm an exception, or an "overnight success"; I've been at this all for several years, and AYP specifically, for a solid couple. The "big results" have accelerated significantly, monthly or so, in recent times.
Point Being: Most of us don't hit life-altering, vast results in a handful of months ... but most of us don't have to slog away for decades, either. Especially once we have access to the non-culturally-complicated, ultra-efficient and clear teachings and practices of AYP.
From where I sit now, the handful of years (total) that I've invested in spiritual focus, meditation and yoga seems like "less than nothing".
(When you really start to awaken from the dream, even the most arduous parts of the dreams don't seem like that big of a deal.)
Adyashanti offers a good overview of this whole dynamic, in his video clip called The Gaze of Eternity.
It's from a satsang earlier this year (I attended; I still lived in California then; it was one of Adya's more powerful satsangs, and I've attended at least a hundred of them.)
Ultimately, it's all a lot more simple than our egos can ever imagine.
The only thing that makes it challenging is that we have such a tough time just letting go of all the ego-distortions, created by our noisy minds.
THAT'S why Inner Silence is THE Most Important Thing.
Samadhi is nothing more nor less than the experience of Self which shows up when we finally get Silent.
Peace, Namaste, Aum Hridayam,
Kirtanman
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 04 2007 : 12:18:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogibear
Hi Kirtanman!
Thank you for your posts. I haven�t had the time until now to devote some serious attention to them.
No problem, YB - ditto, hence my lack of response before now. I just did a detailed reply, regarding Lili's question, which may have covered some of your comments and questions as well, so please check that post out, too.
quote:
Tolle said that he experienced an 80% reduction in thought and that the labeling habit is greatly reduced if not gone. Is it that way with you?
My % of thought reduction is probably less (40-50% maybe, which for me is a LOT), but yes, the labeling habit is largely, if not completely gone. As Adyashanti says, "Judgements arise; they just don't stick". There's also a mental and emotional equanimity that I truly never had any idea was even possible. This comes from having seen through the illusion that thoughts and emotions are "me" or "mine". I sorta-conceptually understood this, but my body and mind reacted "as-if" I was my thoughts and emotions. Not so, now ... and the difference is truly beyond description.
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He says that the amount of inner silence is a direct measure of spiritual progress. Sounds like Yogani.
Yes. Adyashanti has also described stillness, or inner silence, as "the most important aspect or factor" in spirituality, or consciousness paths.
I would clarify, though: it is not the amount of thoughts during daily life, but the amount of identification with thought, which is the mark of spiritual progress. Some body-minds will have babbling thoughts far more than others; if you're not identified with them, it doesn't matter.
The silence doesn't mean "no thoughts"; the true silence underlies thought. Thoughts arise from, and disappear into, Silence.
Nothing has to be fought, or eliminated, or suppressed; the dream just needs to be seen for what it is; a dream.
This is just my experience though; please take my comments, and Tolle's and Yogani's and anyone else's, for what they're worth ... they're all just pointers.
The only aspect of yoga which ultimately matters is your own realization.
And, IMO, Tolle, Adya and Yogani are three of the most "clearly and authentically awake, yet normal" people / teachers I have been exposed to (there are quite a few others; Byron Katie comes to mind), and my own experience tends to strongly support what they've taught concerning silence.
The upshot of which is: if there's anything you have to sacrifice on a given day, sitting meditation probably should not be it.
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What is your experience of ecstatic conductivity?
"For"
Seriously: it's amazing, and I have more of it, more often, than I ever dreamed was possible for a human body-mind to experience. States beyond my wildest imagining are available in any moment, by engaging in specific yogic techniques (aka kind-sorta-barely starting to put my intention in that direction).
When I first tapped into this, I was focused on the "feature" ("Oh My God!! No WAY is it possible to feel THIS good! NO WAY!")... until I began to experience that the more I experienced this kind of ecstasy, the more I then clearly experience myself.
As In: All that ecstasy is simply a side-effect of the purification that is taking place. The result of this purification is silence. When the noise settles, the Self that is ever-present is revealed to us, as us.
People would live fifty lifetimes to experience that kind of ecstasy for a day (no kidding; I would ... in a heartbeat! Heck, maybe I did. )
And guess what?
Next to experiencing the Peace and Stillness which is Self ... all that ecstasy is worth so much less than nothing, there is no way to describe it.
The great yogic rishi Vyasa summed it up nicely in his commentaries on the Yoga Sutra II:42:
Yac'ca Kaama-sukham Loke
Yac'ca Divyam Mahat-sukham
Trishnaa-kshaya-sukhasyai'te
NaarhataH Shodashiim Kalaam
Whatever sensual pleasure there is in this world
and whatever great pleasure there is in heaven
these cannot equal a sixteenth of the happiness
derived from the cessation of desires
Once we experience the Self, for real, all that noise regarding a desire for things to be different than they are, dissolves.
The value of that, the magnitude of that, cannot be described.
But it can be realized.
Regarding Sri Ramakrishna's experiences, I haven't had the hair thing, but I've had the rest of it (being kicked into ecstasy by hearing or seeing something that reminds me of the Reality of the Self). In my experience, this can be managed (I can stop the ecstasy from spiraling into "non-functional-regarding-regular-tasks" levels.)
Sri Ramakrishna apparently considered the adoration and ecstasy to be the priority; I get that. I'm just a bit reluctant to do it (Realization, on any level, does not erase cultural conditioning; it just erases identification with cultural conditioning.)
There seem to be two key ongoing states that could be called "enlightened": the transcendent states often displayed by a Ramakrishna or Nityananda, and the embodied states displayed by Nisargadatta, Ramana, Yogani and Adyashanti.
Both are legimate emanations of the Self shining through a given body-mind (as is everyone and everything else; the only difference is that these are conscious emanations ... everyone else just isn't consciously aware they're the Self; they're no less the Self; there's only One Self. Really.)
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I think I experienced I AM�s hug for the first time last nite during meditation. It is hard to describe but it is like a coordinated synergistic simultaneous occurrence of all the mudras and bandhas with the ecstatic conductivity simmering and buzzing gently thru out my body. It seemed like a general squeezing in an upward direction occurring in my body. When I was lying down for relaxation after meditating, I couldn�t wipe the smile off my face.
I get that, too. It's awesome. It's nothing like realizing "I AM", though (and I say that not to diminish your experience in any way; I know how awesome it is; it gets far better, though ... and becomes available on demand. <-{just checked}. )
The important thing to know is: realization of the Self is not a state; it is literally a fundamental shift from dreaming to waking; to literally and directly experiencing who you really are, and who and what everything is; what THIS is.
"The world is not my concern; it is myself." - Adyashanti
And I know how kinda-half-crazy that kind of talk can sound. It does, to some.
Right up until you experience it for yourself.
Hope this helps; thanks for your further questions and comments ... I sincerely hope that this dialog is useful for all of us.
Aum Shanti, Aum Hridayam,
Kirtanman |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4513 Posts |
Posted - Jul 04 2007 : 09:36:31 AM
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Hi Kirtanman,
Thanks very much for your detailed descriptions of samadhi, and how your life is changeing. It sounds very beautiful. I was just wondering if you could say something about how you are experiencing love in relation to samadhi. Is love always present when you are in samadhi, or only sometimes? Can you tell what it is that creates love when it is there?
Christi |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2007 : 01:12:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Kirtanman,
Thanks very much for your detailed descriptions of samadhi, and how your life is changeing. It sounds very beautiful. I was just wondering if you could say something about how you are experiencing love in relation to samadhi. Is love always present when you are in samadhi, or only sometimes? Can you tell what it is that creates love when it is there?
Christi
Great Question, Christi - Thank You.
I would say that Love, actual, real Love ... is indistinguishable from any other aspect of the Self, experienced in Samadhi.
In my experience, your question is kind of like asking, "Where exactly does that part of the pool leave off, and the other part begin?" ... other than to say that there's certainly no "non-Love" in Samadhi.
And hopefully this will be helpful: one of the greatest milestones I've experienced in recent months is a fundamental shift in my experience of Love; what it is, and what it's all about (in life overall).
Prior to this period in my life, love was pretty much synonymous with "emotional attachment"; I truly cared for people close to me, but often I would feel a strong sense of attachment, as well as a strong sense of aversion toward anything which felt like a threat to the way that my ego has pre-judged the given relationship should be (or not be).
Essentially, I have since realized that Love is simply not like that; not even a little bit.
Love feels much more vast, much more inherent, much more fundamental, and much more pervasive than I ever could have imagined. Almost more like a raw power, like a vast wave, lifting and propelling my life. Attachment and aversion don't enter into it; neither do manipulation or control (or attachment or aversion "thereto" ) ).
And I'm not claiming to be entirely free of natural and healthy emotional connection; I've just largely released the truly addictive attachments that pass for love in almost all of modern society.
Hope that helps.
"When the infinite is still, I call that Emptiness; when it moves, I call that Love" - Adyashanti
Aum Hridayam,
Kirtanman |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4513 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2007 : 06:59:53 AM
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Hi Kirtanman,
Great post, and thanks for being so open in your sharing.
quote:
In my experience, your question is kind of like asking, "Where exactly does that part of the pool leave off, and the other part begin?" ... other than to say that there's certainly no "non-Love" in Samadhi.
I realize we are into kind of rivers entering oceans territory, and it does get hard to say where one thing ends and another begins.
My own experience is not exactly like yours. I can enter states of samadhi which are characterized by bliss, and by a profound silence which, as you say, surrounds and supports everything. It can happen in practices or in normal life. When it happens in normal life, it is as if everything and everyone is floating in this ocean of peace and bliss. But love is not always present. It can feel a bit superficial, or head centred.
I feel love in the samadhi state when the energy current is rising through my center whilst in the samadhi state. I guess this is the lovemaking of siva and shakti happening in the heart that Yogani talks about in the main lessons. Samadhi without love feels somewhat empty to me, as you can imagine.
I am not surprised that you feel samadhi is synominous with love, as you have done a lot of ecstacy raising practices (in fact you might even be the ecstacy raising practices poster boy by now ).
This love seems to me to be the most amazing aspect of the spiritual path, and I am surprised that it does not get more mention, at least in Eastern spiritual traditions. In the Buddhist literature, samadhi is discussed in great deal, and the characteristics associated with different samadhi states is discussed. But love hardly gets a mention.
For me, at the moment, this love that you talk about in your post above, is the only thing that interests me in my spiritual practice. When it is present, I feel it in the heart, and it spreads out to fill my whole body from there, and further into the air around my body. When it is not present I feel empty inside, and a sense of loss and a longing for the divine.
I know I still have a long way to go, but I also feel impatient (like a quickening, or an urgency in terms of my spiritual path).
Lots of thoughts, in no particular order...  Just wodering if this resonates in any way with you.
Christi |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2007 : 10:14:34 AM
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Hi Christi,
I have to admit to having a hard time understanding the idea of bliss without love, to me they are part of the same, are you sure there is no love there? To me bliss without love sounds like ecstasy no?
In any event, here is a little exercise, the second one in particular can really help us to expand our sense of love in our daily lives:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....ID=1344#1344
To me that sense of love comes naturally from within for everything around us. When we are in love with the world, we find that we just love and that is everything. So instead of I love her or I love you, just "I love"...that's it and we have it for everyone, everything and all the time.
A
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Edited by - Anthem on Jul 05 2007 10:38:57 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4513 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2007 : 05:32:16 AM
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Hi Anthem
quote:
Hi Christi,
I have to admit to having a hard time understanding the idea of bliss without love, to me they are part of the same, are you sure there is no love there? To me bliss without love sounds like ecstasy no?
Well, we are definately into oceans and rivers territory now. But I'll try not to give up. What I was trying to say was that I do not always feel love when in samadhi, although I often do. I tried to explain a few months ago how I experience the difference betreen bliss ecstacy and love in this post here:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....page=2#21460
But I'll try again to explain what I was trying to say above as it interests me greatly in terms of the spiritual path and what we are all doing.
Basically I can, during meditation, or during the day, enter a state of mental absorbtion where I am merged with silence. It is incredibly peaceful and there is either no thought at all, or thoughts appear to happen in the distance and have very little to do with me. Everything is immediately present in a very powerful way. There is a wonderful acceptance of everytghing as it is, which could be called a form of love, but compared to the love that I want to talk about, it is really more of a sence of holding and accepting everything as it is. The characteristics of this kind of samadhi are equanimity, peace, bliss, stillness and an abiding sense of presence. Everything seems perfect and wonderful.
But at times I enter another kind of samadhi. In this state, ecsasy is present in the body, moving upwards in a continual flow and expanding out to fill every cell. When this happens at the same time that I am present and merged with the silence, then my heart opens and expands and I feel a new energy which seems to be created in my heart and flows outward from there to everything and everyone around me. This is the love that I was talking about above. As I mentioned above, it is discussed in the main lessons as the merging of shakti and shiva in the heart.
But I don't have enough control of the energies to be able to move into different states of samadhi at will, so I just have to accept what is happening in the moment (probably a useful skill to have  ). But I find that if I feel bliss without love, or ecstacy without love, then I have this longing, or sense of emptiness, like something real is missing.
Hope that clarifies somewhat.
thanks for the link to the exersices, I hadn't seen that thread before.
Christi |
Edited by - Christi on Jul 06 2007 06:28:17 AM |
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glagbo
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2007 : 08:53:26 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
In any event, here is a little exercise, the second one in particular can really help us to expand our sense of love in our daily lives:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....ID=1344#1344
Hi:
Another major tool of Bhakti Yoga is Kirtan, the singing of devotional songs to/about the Divine. That seems to be the Kirtanman's "secret weapon/tool", along with the "main stream" AYP practices and his hefty doses of self-enquiry/"non-dual practices".
We are told that once some inner silence is available, some of the most efficient tools for further progress are from intense Bhakti (Divine Love/ Love for Divine) Yoga. Unfortunately, the yoga community generally tends to relegate most Bhakti yoga practices to their fringe elements and to "organized religions". More enlightened teachings recognize the importance of developing (Unconditional/Divine) Love. It is then not a mere coincidence that the first (and fundamental) one of the nine basic AYP Samyama Prayers (Sutras) is Love, followed by Radiance, and Unity.
Few things threaten (and thus arise deep aversion from) the ego more than self-abandon to intense Bhakti Yoga. I used to be severely annoyed by (and would greatly recoil from) the mere sight of unorthodox "Bhakti Yogis" displaying their unique form of devotion in public squares.
Lately, however, something melts deeply in my heart as I listen to even these extreme renditions, and to other contemporary inspired kirtan songs (e.g):GIRISH - Sita Ram , Ragani
Now and then, I would listen to Kirtan songs again and again, and again. Then the ego eventually self-paces me to "safer" firmer grounds. One of these days, Kirtan; I know you have been calling me.
Peace
B.R.V. |
Edited by - glagbo on Jul 09 2007 1:14:16 PM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2007 : 10:30:14 AM
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quote:
Basically I can, during meditation, or during the day, enter a state of mental absorbtion where I am merged with silence. It is incredibly peaceful and there is either no thought at all, or thoughts appear to happen in the distance and have very little to do with me. Everything is immediately present in a very powerful way. There is a wonderful acceptance of everytghing as it is, which could be called a form of love, but compared to the love that I want to talk about, it is really more of a sence of holding and accepting everything as it is.
Hi Christi,
This paragraph you wrote nicely describes a space I experience often as well, but I wonder why bother defining it? There it is, it happens, enjoy it and then whatever happens next enjoy that too. The truth is, I never know when it is going to come next and more accurately, I never know what is going to come next either. For a while it was happening at the end of the days but then it changes and there is something new which if you look carefully is equally wonderful too. To me, labelling or trying to bring about a particular state is a grasping or an attempt to attach which only leads to suffering, however mild when it is gone. Stillness is in perpetual motion, flow with it and enjoy the next thing life is trying to show you.
quote:
But at times I enter another kind of Samadhi. In this state, ecstasy is present in the body, moving upwards in a continual flow and expanding out to fill every cell. When this happens at the same time that I am present and merged with the silence, then my heart opens and expands and I feel a new energy which seems to be created in my heart and flows outward from there to everything and everyone around me. This is the love that I was talking about above. As I mentioned above, it is discussed in the main lessons as the merging of shakti and shiva in the heart.
This occurs here too a gentle and pervading love that is incredibly tender in its embrace of others. Too be honest, I pretty much avoid putting any names and labels on to any of these states. I have to admit to glossing over all the technical definitions to Samadhi etc. and couldn't tell you which was which or what it really is. To me, it is an attempt to say "oh I am here now" and achieved such and such a state and only serves to pigeon hole and limit us. Let go and dare not to know.
quote:
But I don't have enough control of the energies to be able to move into different states of Samadhi at will, so I just have to accept what is happening in the moment (probably a useful skill to have ). But I find that if I feel bliss without love, or ecstacy without love, then I have this longing, or sense of emptiness, like something real is missing.
Sometimes the love is here and it is wonderful, other times the deep peace and quiet, and that is amazing but in a different way. I also enjoy when ecstasy is here, though I admit to finding this last one the most distracting during sitting practices for some reason particularly when it manifests in the lower chakras. I prefer when it comes outside of practices. In any event, I don't see how we can ever control these states, they come when they come, go when they go but do become an increasing part of our lives the more we practice. So we continue to practice.
I get that longing you are talking about too, this overwhelming internal urge for total connection, but my perspective here is that these are times when my bhakti needs a little self-pacing. Enjoy the here and now, you'll never get to be here again and never get the chance to enjoy this part of your unfolding again. It's that old adage, enjoy the journey, there are no destinations.
A |
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2007 : 12:44:51 AM
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When we have that first experience where all our walls are brought down and we know that even our most prized possession, our self, was never real as we imagined it to be, and are then thoroughly flooded with bliss, love, appreciation, release, which literally lasts for weeks if not months, isn't that samadhi?
How is this first and absolutely disarming experience characterized in relation to samadhi? |
Edited by - Kyman on Jul 07 2007 07:06:07 AM |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2007 : 1:32:47 PM
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Hi Kyman,
Some quotes that sprung to mind when I read your post. They perhaps don't answer your question directly but still relate.
I think what you are referring to in your post is what Christ (but this only my thought)was talking about when he said,
"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, unless a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God(nirvikalpa samadhi)....Marvel not that I say unto thee, Ye must be born again." (John 3;5,7)
It is the birth of the spiritual consciousness. It is the beginning.
"The appearence of the bud of spiritual consciousness-the first rays of spiritual illumination-mark a most critical period in the evolution of the soul.
The time of mere blind belief is passing from you--the time of knowing is at hand."
The perception of the "I am" consciousness may be likened to the bud of the flower--the flower itself being the cosmic knowing.
Not until the whole personality of the man is dissolved and melted, not until it is held by the divine fragment which has created it as a mere subject for grave experiment and experience--not until the whole nature has yielded, and become subject unto its higher self, can the bloom open.
It must not be imagined that this budding consciousness springs fullgrown into a man's mind at once. It has done so in some cases, it s true, but in the majority of instances, it is a matter of slow growth, but the man is never just the same after the growth commences. He apparently may lose his full consciousness of the truth, but it will come back to him again and again, and all the time it is working gradually to make over that man's nature and his changed mental attitude manifests itself in his actions. He becomes more cheerful and happy. Things that worry his neighbors seem to have but little effect upon him. He finds it hard to manifest a respectable amount of regret and grief over things that bear heavily upon those around him. He is apt to be regarded as unfeeling and heartless, not withstanding his heart may be full of Love and Kindness. His mental attitude is changed--his viewpoint has shifted. He finds himself ceasing to fear, and those around him are apt to consider him reckless or thoughtless. Time has less meaning to him, for the idea of eternity has come to him. Distance ceases to appal him, for is not all space his? Such a one had better keep quiet, or he will be sure to be considered a "queer fish," and people may tap their foreheads significantly when speaking of him (behind his back).
From Advanced Course in Yogi Philosophy by Yogi Ramacharaka.
Best, yb. |
Edited by - yogibear on Jul 07 2007 6:43:58 PM |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2007 : 7:12:19 PM
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quote:
Anthem wrote:
In any event, I don't see how we can ever control these states, they come when they come, go when they go but do become an increasing part of our lives the more we practice. So we continue to practice.
Hi Anthem,
A long time ago I went into a state of higher consciousness. I didn't understand it well. I told my teacher about it and he asked me if I could reproduce it at will. I said no and he told me to come back to him when I could. That was all he ever said. He never said much.
He had radiance and peace and had meditated religiously for about 12 years when I met him. I think he was able to produce a state when he wanted but I know that he was riding at a higher baseline level. "He was smarter than the average bear."
So I have always assumed that this was a desirable and possible thing to do.
I know that Swami Rama was able to do it, at least from what I have read about the biofeedback work he did at the Menninger Foundation, way back when. At least in his tradition, this is a goal, I think.
Sounds like maybe you are doing this too since you experience this alot anyways and you just don't think of it that way.
Am I right?
Best. yb.
P.S. Really great posting. Thank you all for sharing your experiences and thoughts. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2007 : 8:13:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogibear
quote:
Anthem wrote:
In any event, I don't see how we can ever control these states, they come when they come, go when they go but do become an increasing part of our lives the more we practice. So we continue to practice.
Hi Anthem,
A long time ago I went into a state of higher consciousness. I didn't understand it well. I told my teacher about it and he asked me if I could reproduce it at will. I said no and he told me to come back to him when I could. That was all he ever said. He never said much.
He had radiance and peace and had meditated religiously for about 12 years when I met him. I think he was able to produce a state when he wanted but I know that he was riding at a higher baseline level. "He was smarter than the average bear."
So I have always assumed that this was a desirable and possible thing to do.
I know that Swami Rama was able to do it, at least from what I have read about the biofeedback work he did at the Menninger Foundation, way back when. At least in his tradition, this is a goal, I think.
Sounds like maybe you are doing this too since you experience this alot anyways and you just don't think of it that way.
Am I right?
Best. yb.
Hi Yogibear,
Thanks for your post, it makes me reflect over the last couple of years, particularly the last year, I have definitely experienced some states that I would describe as higher (as in more fulfilling) than others. The ones I would describe as the most amazing for me, seem to come very rarely, like a moment of grace where the oneness of everything is known. If I could reproduce it I surely would, but wouldn't know where to begin.
What I am noticing by looking back is that some of the states I experience pretty regularly now, like feeling intensely present, deep peace and quietness of mind, love for life and others, ecstasy etc. come more often than they used to and are more accessible. So maybe those very special moments that are rare now will become more common in the future, I certainly hope so!
I guess I wouldn't know how to reproduce those rare higher states, they come they go, and are never the same twice. I love it when they come but would only frustrate myself in trying to get them back. In between, I enjoy the ones that are accessible now, love and gratitude is close to the heart and is just a matter of putting the awareness there. Sometimes it just comes spontaneously for other people, it washes over me and makes me want to give them anything. Calm and peacefulness is always there as long as I don't go over. Ecstasy is a matter of attention on the spinal nerve, but too much play with this puts me over too, so I'm very careful.
For the most part, the only thing that tends to take me out of some of these states is "going-over" in practices. Personally, I find it very challenging these days to stay on the right side of the equation in terms of self-pacing. My whole routine including pranayama, meditation and samyama is over in less than 20 minutes. This has become the most important part of my practice, making sure I "self-pace" properly. I don't know if others here have experienced the same thing, but if I deviate by so much as a minute or add in a few extra reps or something new to the routine, I can end up with symptoms of over-doing which quickly takes me out of any of those feel good states, so it's pretty motivating to get it right!
Thanks for making me reflect.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 08 2007 : 02:04:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by glagbo
I used to be severely annoyed by (and greatly recoil from) the mere sight of the like of these fellow yogis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6DbyJ3x0p0
Funny; I used to be the same way. These days, I don't have any aversion to that type of expression of bhakti, but no strong resonance, either.
Kirtan, Bhajans ... and devotional chanting in general ... have *many* musical and cultural styles, and forms of expression. There are well known Sikh styles (hint: they're the ones who wear turbans, and chant in Gurmukh, rather than Sanskrit), traditional Indian, Western forms of traditional Indian (i.e. the Hare Krsna approach, which I believe is the style shown in your video link, above), and at least a few others ... many of which would fall into the realm becoming known as "Kirtan Fusion" (yogic kirtan lyrics; mantras / names of God in Sanskrit ... with modern Western music as the underlying musical style).
Kirtan Fusion tends to be a lot more palatable to Western cultural sensibilities and musical tastes than the type of approach shown in your link above ... which does not lessen the perfection in that approach in any way.
Candidly, though, if I saw that, even today ... I would feel a sense of loving appreciation, as I do for any demonstration of sincere devotion to that which is sacred (permanent, real) ... yet just as definitively, I would say to myself, "If that's kirtan, then kirtan's not for me!"
So, I thought it might be helpful to remind people that A. kirtan approaches which may "resonate" more readily with people reading this thread are easily available, and B. any spiritual benefit I have gained from kirtan (which is far, far beyond the ability of words to convey, to be sure) has not been from the style of devotional chanting displayed above, but from the Kirtan Fusion styles I outlined in this post a while back.
For an example of the turbo-charged bhakti available with this approach, I highly recommend checking out (and chanting along with) this clip highlighting Krishna Das and a few hundred of his closest friends diving straight into the Heart (of it all) ...
Hare Krishna, LIVE, from the album All One.
The whole thing is probably 20-25 minutes long, and takes a good 3 minutes to really get started. I would invite anyone to spend a full five minutes, chant along ... and feel what you feel.
And, please know: like any practice, kirtan may not "kick in" right away; it didn't for me, either. I just really kind of enjoyed the variety (compared to good ol' rock n' roll I'd listened to for many years) and unique sound and vibe of the mantra reptition.
Then, I noticed a subtle difference (kind of like a sonic boom is subtle ) in how kirtan made me feel, compared to regular singing.
So, I decided to investigate. I made it part of my daily practice.
I'd been doing that about a full year, when I joined the AYP Forum, last summer.
The rest is bliss-story.
Heart is Where the AUM Is,
Kirtanman
PS - Lest I seem culturally myopic: I fully realize and support that some folks my resonate *more* with the YouTube clip that Glagbo posted. Awesome! There's all kinds of MahaBhakti going on out there! For instance, I'm going to see This Guy, next week! Listen closely to the lyrics.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 08 2007 : 02:32:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Kirtanman,
Great post, and thanks for being so open in your sharing.
quote:
In my experience, your question is kind of like asking, "Where exactly does that part of the pool leave off, and the other part begin?" ... other than to say that there's certainly no "non-Love" in Samadhi.
I realize we are into kind of rivers entering oceans territory, and it does get hard to say where one thing ends and another begins.
My own experience is not exactly like yours. I can enter states of samadhi which are characterized by bliss, and by a profound silence which, as you say, surrounds and supports everything. It can happen in practices or in normal life. When it happens in normal life, it is as if everything and everyone is floating in this ocean of peace and bliss. But love is not always present. It can feel a bit superficial, or head centred.
I feel love in the samadhi state when the energy current is rising through my center whilst in the samadhi state. I guess this is the lovemaking of siva and shakti happening in the heart that Yogani talks about in the main lessons. Samadhi without love feels somewhat empty to me, as you can imagine.
I am not surprised that you feel samadhi is synominous with love, as you have done a lot of ecstacy raising practices (in fact you might even be the ecstacy raising practices poster boy by now ).
This love seems to me to be the most amazing aspect of the spiritual path, and I am surprised that it does not get more mention, at least in Eastern spiritual traditions. In the Buddhist literature, samadhi is discussed in great deal, and the characteristics associated with different samadhi states is discussed. But love hardly gets a mention.
For me, at the moment, this love that you talk about in your post above, is the only thing that interests me in my spiritual practice. When it is present, I feel it in the heart, and it spreads out to fill my whole body from there, and further into the air around my body. When it is not present I feel empty inside, and a sense of loss and a longing for the divine.
I know I still have a long way to go, but I also feel impatient (like a quickening, or an urgency in terms of my spiritual path).
Lots of thoughts, in no particular order... Just wodering if this resonates in any way with you.
Christi
Hi Christi,
Yes, pretty much all of it resonates. I've had pretty much every experience you describe, including that "blissful yet cold" sense, yet knowing I was in a very high, conscious and unified state.
In my experience, it's almost like ecstatic love "rose up to meet" that other state (the "connected and blissful yet somewhat superficial") ... and the two integrated into one, and that one was, and is ... HOME.
The infinitely-more-real than I ever dreamed possible Love that I experience now is both FAR more vast and powerful, yet far less sentimental and emotional and attached than even my most refined and conscious experiences of love were, before (I had the experience / realization / resolution of experiences).
And please know: I'm not attempting to say that I'm "beyond" where you are; I don't have a sense that that's a knowable, or pertinent thing ... I'm simply describing what it has been like, and is, for me.
Cutting to the chase, so to speak ... here's what is, for me, the single most powerful, clear and oh-so-pragmatic quote concerning bhakti in the history of ... well ... quotes. And history.
"If the longing is there, realization will be forced on you, even if you do not want it. Long for it intensely so that the mind melts in devotion. After camphor burns away, no residue is left. The mind is the camphor. When it has resolved itself into the Self without leaving the slightest trace behind, it is realization of the Self."
-- Sri Ramana Maharshi
"Be As You Are: The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi", pg.88
That's the great secret.
That's why kirtan works.
That's why AYP works.
ALL these practices, all these awesome states, all these glorious experiences, ultimately take us beyond the mind, completely.
They have to; we're literally designed this way (hence Sri Ramana's first sentence, in the quote above ... it's that much of a sure thing.)
Even now, tears of gratitude spring unbidden to my eyes, as I write this.
Ultimately, all we have to bring to the table is sincerity. Adyashanti call it "earnestness". Adya's teacher (Arvis Justi) said, "Only the phonies don't get enlightened."
Out of several solid years of practice, I didn't experience major "payoff" until very recently.
The major payoff resides in literally realizing: there is no payoff.
Practice results, even the most unspeakably glorious ones, are the sorta-teaser for the Reality, which is:
Realization is not a state, nor is it an experience; it is what we are.
Our sense of this, prior to Realization, is essentially inverted ... we truly feel like we're body-minds, tasting eternal spirit.
We're actually eternal spirit, tasting these body-minds.
REALLY.
"Life is but a dream of a dream. This world is not what it seems."
-Tina Malia
As you can imagine, literally realizing this only changes .... everything.
Heart is Where the AUM is!
Kirtanman |
Edited by - Kirtanman on Jul 08 2007 02:35:15 AM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jul 08 2007 : 2:06:08 PM
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Really nice and insightful posts Kirtanman, thanks for them.
I especially like this great reminder:
quote:
Realization is not a state, nor is it an experience; it is what we are.
Our sense of this, prior to Realization, is essentially inverted ... we truly feel like we're body-minds, tasting eternal spirit.
We're actually eternal spirit, tasting these body-minds.
REALLY.
Also, wanted to mention that because of your posts and passion for "Kirtan" which I had never heard of prior to you, I listened to the whole thing and really liked it, thanks for the link.
All the best,
A
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Samadhi
