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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 12 2007 : 8:56:13 PM
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Hi Katrine,
I wonder what the reason is for your needing to rest? May it bring something wonderful.
Not sure if I understand your dilemma, but prayer always works for me in such situations. I just ask God to show me the solution, know that he will, and completely let it go and don't think about it anymore. Sometimes it takes a few days, but for me the answer comes in the form of something happening that I witness, and I realize it is the answer.
Get better soon! |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2007 : 03:11:08 AM
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Hi Nagoya, Jill and Ether
Thanks for all the wonderful input. I'll look into everything and report back later.
This whole thread actually started off somewhere else in the forum:
Here:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....&whichpage=2
Somehow....the posts are connected. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2007 : 05:16:27 AM
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Hi Anthem
quote:
Can you really be annihilated?
This sticks with me.......
There is something about this question.
.................
Looking at it......it is clear that the fear is......of something imagined. So, it is the idea itself that triggers the fear.
And.....when continuously looked at.....the question of annihilation implies that there is something here that can actually be annihilated. But is this true? The statement: "It will annihilate me".......who is this me.......but a set of memories? A seeming continuum....making up the person I think I am.
But it is not this person that exsists....is it? In fact.....it never did, did it? I mean - looking for it inside.....it is not here now. I can't find it anywhere. What makes me cling to the belief that it was here in the first place? And if not, then there is simply nothing to annihilate.
So, Andrew, you are right!
I can't be annihilated. I am not. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2007 : 08:04:06 AM
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I think the fear may be from the feeling that what we are has value, and the desire to not lose that value.
i think this is just a misunderstanding, because I believe that value can not be lost, but also it can not be held onto. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2007 : 09:02:30 AM
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Hi Ether
quote:
I think the fear may be from the feeling that what we are has value, and the desire to not lose that value.
i think this is just a misunderstanding, because I believe that value can not be lost, but also it can not be held onto.
Yes.....
The misunderstanding being that what we are has value. What we are is value itself. But thinking myself away from myself, and then running from the grief caused by loss of inner contact, makes value seemingly outside of what I am. As if the wetness of water could ever be lost! It couldn't, of course. But being an ice cube would ....make the wetness less available for perception.
So...again....
all I have to "do" is melt  |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2007 : 12:10:40 PM
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I am back with the shine today....
In this morning meditation..."i am"...."i am"...I dived....and dived and dived. Into a darkness that I have encountered before....but not so clearly. It is a vibrating darkness - not the darkness of encountering hatred, anger, hardheartedness......that darkness is always colored by its emotions. No - this darkness is velvety black/blue. I merged with it. It was like being a huge womb - the womb witnessed everything that happened.....the womb was fully pregnant (although completely empty)......and was continously giving birth to appearances. Being the womb, I saw how yesterday and tomorrow always happen now. I saw the illusion of time.
Coming out of the meditation, I opened the eyes and looked at the body. It was like looking at any other body. It had absolutely nothing to do with me. I looked at the rod of ecstatic energy that went through this body - or rather, I looked at the effect this energy had on the body - and it became clear that this effect was not me either.
I sat there - and slowly i became aware of bells chiming within. It was the sound of many churches chiming together - calling people to service. The sound had a color - it was silvery white....The sound also had texture....almost like quicksilver. The sound was a thick, flowing , silvery, white light. The room reverbated with it. All through the sound of the bells was also the sound of the rod. The rod of ecstatic energy.
All this appeared from the womb |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2007 : 2:31:23 PM
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PS.
I don't know why i was so afraid....earlier. The darkness is to drown in. As you would drown in the arms of your parent when you were little. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Apr 15 2007 : 1:04:05 PM
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| There's no reason really. Fear is something we indulge in. It's addictive, and it is a wheel of words that are all interconnected. Fortunately you can throw the whole wheel away from you at once. |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Apr 15 2007 : 4:31:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
There's no reason really. Fear is something we indulge in. It's addictive, and it is a wheel of words that are all interconnected. Fortunately you can throw the whole wheel away from you at once.
Something I've learned in the last months is that fear is a construction of the mind and has no basis in the present. Which is true of so many things, but fear is particularly insidious b'c it involves dread, which points to the future. We don't dread the past. We dread the worst possible thing that might happen in a given situation.
As Ether wrote, you can throw the whole wheel of fear away from you. In theory this is true; in practice it's quite difficult, unless there is something else for the mind to focus on. I've invented a little game for myself that seems to be working. I take whatever situation or event that I'm worried about, and in my mind I create a best case scenario around it, with as many pleasant and fortuitous details as I can conjure. (Not in a ridiculous way, as in "I shall be Queen!" but by envisioning my upcoming situation in the way I'd like to see it happen). Then the next time my mind starts spinning off on the dreaded worst case scenario, I try to substitute those fearful thoughts with the more hopeful ones. It may seem too fluffy an approach to someone who's more logical in their thinking, but it's simply a matter of changing one's thoughts to something more pleasant, and, after all, equally likely to occur. And it's a whole lot more productive than indulging in the paralyzing effects of fear. As for whether or not one can create a positive future event simply by controlling their thoughts - I'll get back to you on that. :) |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Apr 15 2007 : 10:43:18 PM
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Sometimes people have established fear as a belief system, then it becomes strong. The way that is done is by believing something so strongly that you are constantly searching for confirmation that it is true.
For instance, if a poor person doesn't have money to pay a bill, they think "See, that proves I'm poor." Sometimes it is subconscious and deeply ingrained. A rich person in the same situation would think "I will find a way to pay this in a little while."
This process goes on all of our waking hours. Everything we do, we are constantly confirming our beliefs on every subject you can think of.
If you want to change a belief, you have to begin searching for proof that the opposite is true. Just thinking positive thoughts isn't enough, because part of your mind doesn't believe them. You have to be looking for something that will confirm what you want the new belief to be.
For instance, the poor person should think "I know there is a way for me to pay the bill, I just have to look for it." Then continue the search until they find the solution. It is this process of looking for confirmation that establishes a new belief.
So in the case of fear, it's not enough to say "I'm not afraid" over and over, because there is a part of your mind that doesn't believe it.
Instead you have to look for proof that you are not afraid. You don't even have to believe it at first, as long as you try really hard. Think about things that happened in the past; think how you are acting as you go through the day, etc. and eventually you will find something that proves it. Then save that in your mind and look for another clue. Pretty soon your belief will be changed.
It's very powerful.
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Also, when you start to feel fear, you have only a few seconds to make a strong decision to not indulge in it. During that time, it is easy to put your foot down and say "No, I won't allow that." After that first few seconds it is much harder. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Apr 15 2007 11:02:32 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Apr 15 2007 : 11:36:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
PS.
I don't know why i was so afraid....earlier. The darkness is to drown in. As you would drown in the arms of your parent when you were little.
Hi Katrine,
Thanks so much for your courage, openness and candor in sharing your recent struggle with us -- though, like the "bad dream" it was, it seems to have dissipated, yes?
Until the next time the energy flows that way, at least.
I have recently been "graced" with a more clear-seeing of how the three composites of prakriti (thought-matter, matter-thought ... physical-plane building blocks) - the three gunas - tamas, rajas and sattva, are *so* much a part of the us we think we are, and the life we think we're living.
Tamas is inertia, physicality, resistance ... gravity (i.e. L4-L5 disc inflammation, aka "holding back" <-- not said to minimize your injury in any way; I lived the herniated disc thing for over a year, a few years back ... my phrasing is more to highlight that "metaphorical reality" *can* be that plain. )
Rajas is the impulse to act, the need to know ... the energy that is chomping at the bit to move.
Sattva is the pure light of being, which imbues it all - ALL-all - you, me, your life, your back, this Universe ... ALL.
When the dream-we (aka ego, ahamkara, {insert birth-name of choice here}, which is itself a moderate, reactive ping-ponging of energies, allows itself to be ping-ponged, reactively, between Tamas and Rajas ... suffering ensues.
When we allow ourselves to consciously experience the Will which is always perfectly dancing us ... we step out of our movie, and place ourselves (see ping-pong analogy, above ...  ) on the Altar of Life. Suffering ceases. Regardless of apparent circumstance.
And I'm in no way trying to preach or teach, here - just sharing some insight which I hope may prove useful - as A Course in Miracles states, "We are all students and teachers to each other".
And I do add my healing intentions for you - however Life may apply them (i.e. "Life knows what it is doing" - a whole lot more so than your friendly-neighborhood Kirtanman ...  ).
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2007 : 06:36:27 AM
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Thanks Ether and Meg
I enjoyed your perspectives on fear.
Meg wrote:
quote:
As Ether wrote, you can throw the whole wheel of fear away from you. In theory this is true; in practice it's quite difficult, unless there is something else for the mind to focus on
quote:
I try to substitute those fearful thoughts with the more hopeful ones. It may seem too fluffy an approach to someone who's more logical in their thinking, but it's simply a matter of changing one's thoughts to something more pleasant, and, after all, equally likely to occur
Yes. This definitely works for the time being. I can substitute one idea with another. I avoid the embroidery of fear then. But I am interesting in understanding the workings inside me. I don't want to keep repairing. There is information hidden behind the appearance of fear.....the tracks within me that leads to the fear.....I need to see them to transend them.
Ether wrote:
quote:
There's no reason really. Fear is something we indulge in
Yes! Great observation, Ether. This is true. And how come....this indulgence happen? These are the tracks again.....a billion years of habit....that turns my mind outwards into words/images that gives birth to the feeling called fear. Fear is always about an idea (of what could happen in the future - based on the experience of the past, as you said, Meg).
But, since everything always happen Now.......the fear is always an illusion. There is no time.....not really. Looking at this.....to not indulge the fear, has a hidden implication. If I don't indulge.....if I let go immediately....then where am I? I - my mind - is not then. It becomes obvious that I never was. Not only am I "annihilated"....it is revealed that I never was in the first place. And if I am not, then what is? I - my mind - can never know, can it? It is impossible for the mind to actually know what is beyond itself. So......no wonder the courage is needed. To face ones own death, in a way.
Of course, the instant the identification with the mind dissolves....then the "trouble" is instantly gone. As with the nightmare..... awakend from.
quote:
If you want to change a belief, you have to begin searching for proof that the opposite is true
Yes. I see that, Ether. But I don't want to substitute one belief with another. I want direct experience. I am so.....stubborn......it is the only thing that splinters my dream.
quote:
Instead you have to look for proof that you are not afraid. You don't even have to believe it at first, as long as you try really hard
This is what I pondered....while writing "Earnestness"
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=2414
Yes. It is the looking that is essential, though. I don't look for anything special. I don't look for proof of the opposite. I am interested in what is here in the first place.
When I am not connected (as with the back) - the indulgence to go with the mind, is a set route. And always a dead end. The difficulty being... that when i need clarity the most - it is nowhere in sight. I am not sight, then. When not connected (when fragmented....different thought identifications....split; as in minor schizofrenia), I have no sight. There is no available clarity.I have split myself off from the clarity. Hence the....roaming about....looking elsewhere. Anywhere, but here. Because here is where the pain is. As well as peace.
So....
You are right, Meg. About the new focus of the mind. Thank you! The way i experience it right now ......is that the new focus of the mind....is actually a relaxation. A quieting down, so that the gaps between the thoughts/images/feelings can shine through. My (the mind) only task .......turns out to be: To be available.
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2007 : 06:49:38 AM
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Oh.......
It just dawned on me....
This (the availability) has another implication
quote:
In that case......it is crucial that I find the outlet (or....that the outlet finds me).....if I can't continously empty myself....I'll be blown to pieces very soon
I don't have to look for "the outlet" ! I am it. The outlet is all I am. A passage......
So.....this means I don't have to try to empty myself (it can't be done that way.....the instant I do (effort)...that very instant I am identified with the separate room that is the mind). All I have to "do" is relax. Stop.
And in this case......I don't have to worry about being blown to pieces either. Everything can blow right through.
This also reveals.......that it is not particularly about "the writing" either......It is all about availability. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2007 : 07:14:03 AM
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Hi Kirtanman
Thank you so much! You are a well of marbles
quote:
Tamas is inertia, physicality, resistance ... gravity (i.e. L4-L5 disc inflammation, aka "holding back"
This is interesting.....because I have pondered the location of the injury......that it had something to do with sustaining myself. The job that I took in August was a very needed shift in my daily life. It freed me completely of the whole identity with the "therapeut".....the one who fixes things in others. (BTW - this is not to degrade therapy in any way - millions are helped by it - myself included). I never knew what a prison that identity had become until I quit. It is not that i don't want to help....or to heal. It is more the way it is done. I simply couldn't be imprisoned by rules and regulations anymore. It is not that particular identity ......it is any identity. I was good at what I did......but it had me believe that I was somebody. Do you see?
Deep down.....something says that it is possible for me to do more (workwise)....to help more people....with much less effort. Deep down....something says that the inner can be reflected in the outer....that everything in life can be alligned to truth. Why should there be a discrepency between what I do for a living, and what I am?
So....the L4/L5.....what do you think i am holding onto?
Oh.....
It's myself, isn't it?
I am holding on to the idea of myself.......
yes....of course....
this also implies that it was not really for my family....it was always for me. I "took care of them"....in order to take care of me. It is this that is the prison.... |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2007 : 07:28:30 AM
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Just want to tell you that i added Samyama to the meditation two days ago.
I have tried Samyama once before......my mind decided that it would do with just "Love".
(See how it looks after itself....itself only? )
After just a short time, i had to stop it because of the overwhelming ecstacy. (Jim - again; you were right. I get what I ask. You have taught me much, Jim. Thank you.)
Now i do all of it. All 9. The first time (yesterday morning)....I forgot one of the sutras. I waited to see if it would surface during the day. It didn't. So today i looked it up. The one i had "forgotten" was STRENGTH.
From now on,
here is:
LOVE
RADIANCE
UNION
HEALTH
STRENGTH
ABUNDANCE
WISDOM
INNER SENSUALITY
AKASHA - LIGHTNESS OF AIR
Thank you, everyone |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2007 : 07:33:53 AM
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Hi Katrine,
quote:
Fear is always about an idea (of what could happen in the future - based on the experience of the past, as you said, Meg).
It is just a feeling.... but isn't the most terrifying thing in the world what is right here, right now? Isn't that why we spend most (all) of our lives trying to get away from it?
The future seems relatively safe to me compared with that.
Christi |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2007 : 07:52:11 AM
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Yes, Christi
The future seems to be preferable to my own death.
Yet all life, springs from death.
So ....by giving away "my own".....by letting go of that limitation...then who knows?
Even these... are just words......
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2007 : 08:08:45 AM
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Katrine wrote:
quote:
So....the L4/L5.....what do you think i am holding onto?
This is the process I was talking about; this is you looking for confirmation of a belief that you already have. It is a searching, but the mind is holding at the same time what is is searching for.
There is nothing wrong with that process; it is natural for all of us.
All I am saying is you can change what it is you are holding during the process.
Of course you can "let go" of everything, but that's a different subject.
It's during normal waking hours, not during practices, that we do this searching while holding an imaginary concept.. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2007 : 08:32:47 AM
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Hi Ether
quote:
All I am saying is you can change what it is you are holding during the process.
But I don't want to hold anything at all, Ether.
I am tired of grasping. Still, I ask Kirtanman to clarify his statement......Why is that?
quote:
Of course you can "let go" of everything, but that's a different subject
Is it, really?
quote:
It's during normal waking hours, not during practices, that we do this searching while holding an imaginary concept
Well.....they.....float into each other, Ether. The waking hours and the practises.....there is no clear demarcation.
Thanks for not giving up on me. I'll come around....
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2007 : 08:45:36 AM
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Hi Katrine
quote:
I never knew what a prison that identity had become until I quit. It is not that i don't want to help....or to heal. It is more the way it is done. I simply couldn't be imprisoned by rules and regulations anymore. It is not that particular identity ......it is any identity. I was good at what I did......but it had me believe that I was somebody.
I wonder is it possible to have an identity but not have one - both at the same time. Sounds very zen I know. Like holding the dual/non-dual together as one.
Whilst I was reading this post I got a phone call from one of our group meditators to tell me she would not be at the meditation for a while because she had torn the ligements in her right foot.
She went on the tell me she had been very busy during last week and had stopped her regualr practice. Her husband was telling her to do her meditation because she was grumpy without it. Then she had the fall and injury.
She feels quite strongly that it happened to slow her down and now she is back meditating because she can't do all the things she is "supposed" to be doing.
This has happened me also, where I have injuries that stop me doing things that would be a distraction to what I know I need to do.
Just thought I'd offer that perspective.
Louis
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2007 : 09:00:12 AM
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Louis.....
I've told you before, and I say it again: You're a fortune
quote:
She feels quite strongly that it happened to slow her down and now she is back meditating because she can't do all the things she is "supposed" to be doing.
I knew - the instant I read it - that this is true.
The implications of it.......
I can't tell yet.
I just pray that I manage to stay true. |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2007 : 09:15:19 AM
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I have a hard time following your thought process, Katrine, but it would seem that the general discussion of fear is helpful to you, and I'm glad for that. It's a subject that I've been looking at closely as well, so we share that interest. For the record, I didn't say, or at least didn't intend to say, that fear is an idea based on past experience. It may be, but more often it has no basis whatsoever. Most of the fears which we dread have never, ever occurred. :) What a hoot! So if they haven't happened before, why should they suddenly happen now? In fact, I've been incredibly blessed in so many ways in the past months that it's practically absurd that I should now fear/dread that something will go terribly amiss.
Ether - thanks for the suggestion to search for proof that the fears are unfounded. That's helpful, and there is no shortage of proof for me at the moment. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2007 : 09:33:19 AM
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Hi Meg
You know - it is not you that is at fault for having a hard time following my process; thought based or otherwise
I am not very structured right now.
Thanks for sharing of yourself. It is more than enough.
And you are helping me.
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2007 : 09:43:53 AM
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| Thanks, Katrine. While I appreciate your style of writing that I would call 'stream of consciousness', I admit to (often) finding it difficult to follow in terms of practical usage. Not always, mind - sometimes it is very clear and I understand your meaning perfectly. I'm grateful that you've instigated the discussion of fear, as it's timely for me, and there have been some really good nuggets for me to digest. :) |
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