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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 20 2007 : 11:12:15 AM
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I feel that the detachment is one of the most misunderstood concepts within spirituality today and I've heard some say that it's necessary to detach from the Self and from God, heaven forbid, and I think that the confusion lies from Spiritual Teachers also admonishing the necessity of detaching from everything on 'heaven and earth' and also from 'God' in order to realize the Self, or God, or the Self in its relation to God.
To "de" attach from a thing is connotative that something needs to be removed, reduced, or peeled away to realize its source and also alludes to something accrued or added on to its essential nature and is now necessary to "de" attach from "it" and realize its origin.
If the Self is complete, perfect, in its relation to Perfection or God, The Higher Source, or whatever other word we choose to conceptualize something that is free from attachment, then something other that detaching from the true Self or God was meant when these Spiritual Powerhouses mentioned the need for detachment from God.
In other words, it's impossible to be detached from the Self or from God, because the Self in its relation to God is free from attachment and is Complete - It was never attached to a thing in the first place, so it's our imagination of what the Self or God represents that needs to be detached and not the Reality Itself:
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on Mar 20 2007 11:41:00 AM |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2007 : 11:45:31 AM
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Namaste VIL:
Outstanding post! Tell it, man, tell it! I have wondered also of late about how to address this issue of 'detachment', but hadn't as yet settled on a response that seemed appropriate.
But you hit the mark right on target. Thanks for putting it into words I can relate to.  
Hari OM!
Doc
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2007 : 12:50:14 PM
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Thanks, Doc:
VIL |
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Mike
United Kingdom
77 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2007 : 1:40:50 PM
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quote:
In other words, it's impossible to be detached from the Self or from God
Unless you are Buddhist my friend  ... in which case neither of the above exist (in the sense you mean them) 
Now is it possible to detatch from the pleasure/displeasure reaction that might occur when folks reply agreeing/disagreeing to/with posts? 
Peace
Mike |
Edited by - Mike on Mar 20 2007 1:48:58 PM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2007 : 2:47:22 PM
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quote:
so it's our imagination of what the Self or God represents that needs to be detached and not the Reality Itself:
Yes VIL agree fully, The same can be said when we look at, or think of, a tree, a flower, the computer, a person, every little item on earth and also the planets and the whole cosmos.
To look at something with no identification, no idea, no memory of a name for it, no concept of what it is, in any shape or form, is detachment imo.
What we are looking at then is actually God, if God is what you want to identify this detachment as.
Enter the paradox of duality and non-duality.
Louis
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2007 : 6:29:22 PM
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Hey, Mike, I'm not Realized or even Enlightened and post things from a perspective that I hope will help another person that may be struggling with a concept that had once caused me difficulty. That's it. I try to be as real as possible and free from pretense, like we all do:
I know that "detachment" was something that I needed to spend many hours of research and correlate just about every spiritual teaching to understand and then contemplate its meaning in accordance with reason and common sense. I approach things in a deductive fashion that may have something to do with my Kundalini Awakening years back or an anal retentive aspect of my personality that God refuses to remove, so that the true Self will shine through. (God's way of having fun with me). So there is a reason behind it all, I exist for God's good pleasure/humor: LOL:
quote:
Now is it possible to detatch from the pleasure/displeasure reaction that might occur when folks reply agreeing/disagreeing to/with posts?
Peace
About your above post...
It is clear if I were to reply that another's post caused pleasure or displeasure than the fact that I bothered posting in the first place would show either or and would prove your argument from a Buddhist perspective that between pleasure and pain exists peace and the very fact that I responded would further show that I was still caught in the matrix and could not possibly understand the concept.
quote:
Mike: in which case neither of the above exist (in the sense you mean them)
I didn't understand the above, though, since I'm not sure what sense you thought that I thought that you thought that I thought that I meant that you meant:
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on Mar 20 2007 6:46:41 PM |
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darrylc
Australia
9 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2007 : 8:48:36 PM
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quote:
Unless you are Buddhist my friend ... in which case neither of the above exist (in the sense you mean them)
Now is it possible to detatch from the pleasure/displeasure reaction that might occur when folks reply agreeing/disagreeing to/with posts?
That's funny
My take on the attachment/dettachment thing is this.
It's all a mental attitude on how we interact with the environment we live in. Attachment is a mental attitude that exagerates the qualities of an object or adds qualities to that object that do not exist. Dettachment is training yourself not to do this, and just see the object for what it is.
Hope that is useful to someone.
darryl |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2007 : 9:08:26 PM
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Good post, Louis, and it reminds me of the stories of Nasreddin Mullah, one that I feel is appropriate for this discussion:
"The Moving Friend
"Nasreddin," a friend said one day, "I am moving to another village. Can I have your ring, so that I will remember you every time I look at it?"
Nasreddin replied, “Well, you might lose the ring and then forget about me. How about I don’t give you a ring in the first place—that way, every time that you look at your finger and don’t see a ring, you will definitely remember me.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasreddin
"It is believed that the mystical effect of seven Nasruddin tales, told in succession, is enough to prepare an individual for enlightenment. "
Here are some Nasruddin tales:
http://www.cse.ucsc.edu/%7Ejyoti/mulla.html
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on Mar 20 2007 9:24:24 PM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2007 : 9:59:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by darrylc
My take on the attachment/dettachment thing is this.
It's all a mental attitude on how we interact with the environment we live in. Attachment is a mental attitude that exagerates the qualities of an object or adds qualities to that object that do not exist. Dettachment is training yourself not to do this, and just see the object for what it is.
Hope that is useful to someone.
darryl
Hi Darryl,
Welcome to the forum and thank you for your succinctly expressed perspectives.
All the best to you,
A
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2007 : 10:45:48 PM
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Yes, darryl, thank you for your honesty and contribution to the thread. And welcome to AYP!:
VIL |
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darrylc
Australia
9 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2007 : 03:14:11 AM
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Thanks for the Welcome. Been a lurker here for many years, I'll try not to be a stranger.
This attachment thing took a long time for me to get my head around. When we start adding things to the object we interact with (person, cup of coffee ...etc) we start to think that the pleasure we feel comes from that object. This leads us down the path of habituation (and in the worst case addications), that's when the trouble starts ;-)
Pleasure or happiness(of the lasting kind, ie: estatic conductivity) can only come from within, we have to stop looking outside for it. That doesn't mean we can't enjoy stuff, just realise that it doesn't last and is only a fleeting experience.
May we all speedily gain enlightenment for the benfit of all.
regards
darryl
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2007 : 04:47:11 AM
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"That doesn't mean we can't enjoy stuff, just realise that it doesn't last and is only a fleeting experience."
Great post, darrylc! In my experience, though, it happens more and more often that when I realize how much ornamentations and "blingbling" my mind has added to a person, a thing, a situation etc, it sort of takes away A LOT of the enjoyment of it that used to be there. It is impossible to enjoy it like I used to, when I at the same time see how I fool myself into believing untrue stuff about it. I feel ridiculous. I stop.
It's like... say I like chocolate pudding a lot. Enjoy it a lot. Gives me a sense of feel good and relaxation. Then I go to therapy and start to remember that I started to eat chocolate pudding everytime my mom didn't have time for me. It was just a pain killer, relieving anxiety from being not seen and feeling lonely. Then suddenly chocolate pudding gets a different connotation and no longer gives me a sense of feel good. It awakens sorrow, which is the real underlying feeling. So I might enjoy chocolate pudding, but now for the reason that it shows me who I am, how my strategies have been trying to protect me from pain, and it is a constant reminder of my journey of self-inquiry. I am no longer able to enjoy it when I know why I enjoy it. If I on top of that gain knowledge of how damaging chocolate pudding is for my body (lots of sugar that is just giving me a kick, disturbing my insuline balance, making me gain weight etc etc) and how I support a system of sugar addiction in the world that people do not fare well from, because many, many more than I have learned to suppress anxiety with sugar etc etc... well... then more and more things add to my insights on what that previously enjoyable chocolate pudding actually is about in a larger picture. Detachment becomes easier, at least for me. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2007 : 6:30:15 PM
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Hi All
Emc
quote:
So I might enjoy chocolate pudding, but now for the reason that it shows me who I am
And....paradoxically.....it shows you who you're not
That is why it is so important to surface......what is hidden/suppressed/"forgotten"....because the very surfacing of all the material in a given situation; a given now; is what makes detachment possible. There can be no detachment in an unaware habit pattern; a reaction. I cannot see what is not in front of me. First - all needs to surface. And I resist the surfacing - because (like you describe it so well) it involves facing pain. Like so many....nobody told me (when i was a child) that suppressing/hiding/ pain was a self-harming habit. Nobody told me that inner talking about the pain....making an embroidery of pain......was also a prolonging factor. Nobody told me until i found out as a grown-up.... Through awareness training (meditation), great literature, self-inquiry......and many, many patients, friends, husband, children..... that truly are all gurus to me. I learn much from them. All my lies mirrored back to me. Again and again.
Inner silence is compassionate. From it springs the courage needed to face myself.....the self I think I am.
In facing the pain....without escape....something else reveals itself in the depth of it. It is awareness that sees truly. That which first reveals itself when the pain; and the story I tell about it; has died down is what I am. Awareness is both the agent that sees (what makes registration of objects possible), the source of the objects, and also what is left when what is seen has died down. Awareness is constant. It is I (thoughts, images) that come and go.
So...
Detachment or disidentification is not something I do. On the contrary.....I don't do....I relax. I open up to myself. I just am.
No "turning away from something in order to detach" is necessary. Nobody "peals" anything. On the contrary; all is allowed. The very seeing of the material is enough. No "forcing things to surface" is necessary either. Awareness is needed. That is all. All will surface in awareness.
Spontaniously.
Intelligently.
Eventually .....there is a shift. So much awareness is non-clouded (so much detachment has happened) that instead of staying with the objects, I stay with myself. There is a shift of identity. It is possible to stay focused in what I am - no matter the objects surfacing (any perceivable thing/emotion/thought/sensation).
What started out as "glimpses" and "gaps" is then revealed to be the only constant fact.
And this loving fact is who you are, emc
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2007 : 10:24:37 PM
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Hi to all ~
I thought that the following article expressed some points regarding detachment, so I present it here for your review.
http://www.arpana.org/research/imag...unset-om.jpg
What is detachment - by Remez Sasson
Count the number of times you got emotionally involved in something against your will and better judgment. How many times have you got angry, frustrated or disappointed? How many times have your moods swung high and low? Each time you told yourself that next time you will stay cool, and yet each time you forget what you said.
Life is like this. When it comes to your personal affairs, it is hard for you to be indifferent. You get involved, and this is quite natural, otherwise life would have been boring. Involvement makes life ticking and active.
Detachment is being cool and uninvolved on the emotional level. It is definitely not indifference. Indifferent people do not care, do not mind, and are not active and initiative. On the other hand, a detached person can be very active and caring, though he accepts calmly whatever happens.
If he cannot do or change something, it does not disturb his peace of mind. On the other hand, if he needs to do something, he will pursue it whole-heartedly. He will do everything needed to succeed. If it does not work out, he stays calm, and will either try again, or forget the matter easily and move to something else.
Every spiritual tradition speaks about detachment, but detachment cannot be confined only to spirituality. Detachment is important in daily life, in pursuit of ambitions, and on the spiritual path. It is of great importance to everyone, whether pursuing spirituality or material success.
Let me give you two examples of detachment, one on the spiritual path, and the other in daily ordinary life. A person who engages in meditation tries to quieten his mind during meditation and in his everyday life. If he gets emotionally involved with his thoughts, he follows them, forgets about his meditation and concentration, and loses his peace of mind.
On the other hand, the more detached he is, the easier it is for him to ignore disturbing thoughts. Detachment helps him to stay collected and concentrated.
When someone says to you something you do not like, you may become disappointed, angry, or feel down. Why is it so? Because you value other's people words and opinions, more than you value your thoughts and opinions of yourself. You let other's people thoughts, words and actions influence your happiness, actions and reactions. Your happiness and actions depend on them.
On the other hand, if you learn to stay detached, you may listen to what they say, but as if they are saying it about someone else. If they are right, you can benefit from what they say. If they are wrong, you go on with your life as if nothing was said.
Have you ever thought how much time and energy is wasted every day, over brooding on thoughts and feelings, because of the lack of detachment? Much of the anger, frustration, disappointments and fights come about because there is no detachment.
Detachment develops automatically, when one engages in meditation. It is a gradual automatic process. In meditation one endeavor not to follow the thoughts and feelings that rise. It is a time of a mental and emotional vacation. Meditating day after day develops the habit of staying cool and calm, not only during meditation, but also in all daily life.
If you practice any kind of meditation, sooner or later you will start to experience detachment. You will find that you feel and behave in a different way under circumstances that previously raised anger or agitation. You will find that you handle your daily affairs of life in a calm and relaxed way.
Real detachment means inner strength, and the ability to function calmly and with full inner control under all circumstances. A detached person is not harassed and hurried, and can do everything with concentration and attention, thus insuring a successful outcome of his actions.
http://bvml.org/SSG/Sanatana.jpg
Hari OM!
Doc
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2007 : 04:13:34 AM
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Thank you, Katrine! I get so touched - it is as if you always write what I need to hear in the exact right moment. Very intelligent, indeed!
quote:
And....paradoxically.....it shows you who you're not
Yes! It hit me really hard just the other day... A total AHA-insight. I had a little conversation with myself about how I fool myself all the time (adding attributions to stuff), but the conversation was with my identity based in my ego-mind, so I sort of felt as if something would have to "drop away" from me, as if something I had had a grip on for so long would now have to go, as if I would lose something. Then my inner voice said:
- But you never ever had it, did you? It was never yours, you only thought it was...
Boy, that feeling of a coin dropping down... I cannot lose anything I never had. The feeling of "giving something up" when I detach from my attributions is so false! My mind has claimed to be the owner of pleasures and pains - but it never was! Gosh, what a relief!
quote:
There can be no detachment in an unaware habit pattern; a reaction. I cannot see what is not in front of me. First - all needs to surface. And I resist the surfacing - because (like you describe it so well) it involves facing pain.
I love those words! Thank you! That shows the importance of self-inquiry, therapy, feed-back from partners, family and friends, which you mention!
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Edited by - emc on Mar 22 2007 04:18:15 AM |
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Detachment
