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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 07 2007 : 11:34:13 PM
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Hi All,
I'm starting to surface post cross-country move (California>Georgia), and have become aware that there's an increasing amount of dialog here in the Forum, concerning duality and non-duality (dvaita and advaita).
There's some (in my opinion) decent related discussion at the bottom of Page 1 of the Adyashanti thread, in the "Gurus" section:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....&whichpage=1
(My conversation with Cloud Recluse, and Ajna.)
And, I think one of the first orders of business is to clarify what we're discussing ... what is the Advaitic (Non-Dual) perspective all about?
What is Dvaita all about?
And while I do my best not to label myself or anyone else, I'm clearly in the Advaita "camp" - not as a matter of weighing philosophical arguments, and landing on one side of the "fence of Dvaita"  or the other -- but solely per the deepest experiences I have been privileged to have, as a result of a few very solid years of yoga practice - including the more bhakti-centric paths of AYP and Kirtan, and the more Jnana-centric paths of teachers such as Adyashanti, Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta Maharaj.
Dvaita, however, doesn't just mean that a sadhaka experiences duality, and therefore denies the possibility of Advaita (Oneness; there is only One ... Ayam Atma Brahma - "This Self is Brahman) - but is actually a formal branch of Vedanta, within the Sanatana Dharma (aka Hinduism).
And apparently decent overview is available via this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvaita
And please note ... this post isn't designed to facilitate a philosophical discussion or debate (in my experiences, using the conclusions of the rational / egoic mind as a means to Enlightenment -- or any true expansion of consciousness -- has been greatly overrated) ... though it's certainly not my place to determine if it ultimately goes that way, or not ...
... But it (this post) is offered so that we can converse as a Sangha (spiritual / consciousness-oriented community) about how perceptions and experiences of non-duality and/or duality, may potentially impact our AYP practices - and our perception and experience of the world around us - and of life, itself (tall order for a Forum discussion thread, maybe -- but let's see what we can do!  )
I consider myself an Advaitin (one who is aware of Oneness in my own experience, or more loosely, one who accepts the idea that there is only One) - yet I do engage in daily practices (thought by some to be the province of "dvaitins" ... so I guess you could say I'm a "Practicing Advaitin".
Seriously, though -- it has never occurred to me to consider practices as any kind of a dividing line between non-duality and duality.
Yogani, maybe you can comment on, or clarify your thoughts on this, for me / us, if you don't mind?
I imagine (though I haven't had a lot of association with any adherents) that there are the "hardcore" advaitins - the "nowhere to go, nothing to do" set -- but they don't seem to be reflective of the whole of Advaita, by a long shot.
Essentially, in my awareness and experience as an Advaitin, most of us who accept Advaita as reality, have no issue with acknowledging apparent duality - and consider that the primary benefit of using a term such as "advaita", is to acknowledge the reality of Oneness, and the ultimate unreality (per its transience) of anything which appears to be dual.
Per the title of one Eckhart Tolle interview, "Even the Sun Will Die" -- (but the Self, Consciousness - will not - cannot).
This view is strongly supported by the Mahavakyas ("Great Statements") of the Vedas - per the overview available at this link:
http://www.swamij.com/mahavakyas.htm
For the less "link-ically inclined" - here they are (from Wikipedia), for reference:
The Mahavakyas are:
1. Prajnanam Brahma - "Conscious is Brahman" (Aitareya Upanishad 3.3)
2. Ayam Atma Brahma - "This Self (Atman) is Brahman" (Mandukya Upanishad 1.2)
3. Tat Tvam Asi - "Thou art That" (Chandogya Upanishad 6.8.7)
4. Aham Brahmasmi - "I am Brahman" (Brhadaranyaka Upanishad 1.4.10)
5. Sarvam kalvidam Brahma - "All of this is Brahman" (Chandogya Upanishad 3.14.1)
6. Sachchidnanda Brahma - "Brahman is existence, consciousness, and bliss"
(Side Note: no reference is given for number 6, because the Wikipedia article didn't cite a reference ... dunno why.)
Historically (for what it may be worth) - one of my own "Advaitic" sticking points wasn't practices ... but the path of Bhakti Yoga itself ... if there is only One ... why are we "devoted" to something "other" than ourself?
Even Sri Ramakrishna took a while to get that one (and literally had to be whacked in the head with a rock!) - because his devotion - his Bhakti for Ma Kali was SO much the near-totality of his consciousness - until he broke through, with the power of that earnest love - to experience the integrated, One Self - and realizing (literally) that there can't really ever be "two" (or more) - though there can certainly appear to be - as you have likely noticed.
One phrase I heard a while back, which stuck with me, is that we are all "overlapping Universes".
Even the Yoga-Sutras, which emphasize Bhakti fairly strongly - the idea of the sadhaka bringing the presence of God into practice (I.23 - Ishvara-Pranidhanad Va - "or, by practising God's presence (Samadhi can be attained quickly)".
Patanjali basically identifies what yoga is all about (I.2-I.3) -- levels of consciousness, and various potential traps (I.4-I.19) -- prerequisites / avenues to the various levels of Samadhi (I.20) -- various rates of yogic progress, and reasons for these rates (progressing slow, medium or fast) - (I.21-I.22) ... I.22 being of significant not ("mrdu-madhyadhimatratvat tato'pi visheshaH" - "Even from among those of great momentum, there is a distinction of the slow, medium and ultimate").
Point Being ... the context of sutra I.23 is essentially -- "And for you maniacs who are already among the fastest, but want to 'super turbo-charge' your practice ... "practice God's presence" ... as in: devoting a whole sutra to a single "sub-point" (not only how to attain Samadhi fast ... but "even faster"), in an age when this was all created as part of an oral (not written) tradition ... was a huge deal ... and probably worth noting.
And the Yoga-Sutras and attendant yogic literature - also make clear that Purusha (Self) and Brahman (All-Self / All) are not different ... and that the way to resolve any apparent distinction between the two, is to ... continue practices ... until asamprajnata samadhi is Realized - and all apparent conflicts resolve - within the One - that we each and all ever are (asamprajnata samadhi is simply the most refined / undisturbed samadhi, where no sense of identity or even bliss remains ... only pure being ... pure ... One).
(Though, it is only fair to point out that this is one, albeit seemingly very clear interpretation ... studying the Yoga-Sutras directly, one can see how the overview concerning the nature of God in I.24-I.26 could lead one to a dualistic conclusion - that there is a God that is distinct - or at least a super-set - of the Purusha / Self described throughout the Sutras.)
It is my experience, that like so many practices and teachings in the dualistic realm (mantra, tantra, kirtan, inquiry, etc.), that the Yoga-Sutras meet the sadhaka where he or she is, with the ultimate goal (as Eckhart Tolle says of A Course in Miracles) of "taking you by the hand, and leading you out of all the noise, into the Silence" - where the true nature of Self / God / Reality ... IS.
Still, now (<--- hint, hint  ) - why practices?
If we're all One - who decides to practice?
As Adyashanti says, "Sense of self is an operational necessity." - and adds, "But 'sense of self' is not a self ... it's a sense of self. Big difference. Complete difference."
Late 2004-ish, I actually had a rather hard time, as a "card carrying" Advaitin (not literally .... after all, we're all One ... and the One "don't need no steenkin' cards!" <-- semi-obscure Spaghetti Western - 1960s movie reference) -- when there was such an amazing draw to .... dare I say it ..... chant in Sanskrit.
I thought I was going backwards -- from at least being clear, at the time, on the idea of Oneness, and as an Adyashanti adherent, being clear on the ultimate uselessness of that which we think, say and do as tools to Realize the Self -- to devotedly worshipping way-too-happy blue people with multiple arms.
As Krishna Das so eloquently and succinctly said in a workshop, once, "When I chant to Sri Krishna, I'm not chanting to the blue guy with the flute ... I'm chanting to the One ... in here." (tapping his own heart.)
The apparent self can be drawn to think, say and do that which the Self knows will cause it to be ever more of reality.
Just as our bodies "know what to do" when we experience sexual puberty - so our souls / egoic body-minds "know what to do" (and/or "know what to try to resist" ) -- per what they feel drawn to do, as guided by the Self / Highest Consciousness / Karmic "programming" (pre-disposition to Bhakti, practices, etc.)
Ultimately, Patanjali probably said it best and most succinctly of all all in Yoga-Sutra I.2:
Yogash Chitta-Vrtti-Nirodhah
"Yoga is the control of the modifications of the mind-field"
OR
"Samadhi / Oneness is the result of stilling the waves of the lake of the mind" <-- my paraphrase.
When that last most subtle wave stills completely ... and the pure lake of BuddhiH (Mind) is free to purely reflect the pure light of Purusha (Self) - then it is truly Realized that there is indeed only Self - only One.
And so, while practices may be part of apparent duality - they can be a (seemingly) mission-critical toolset for helping us reach the doorway to the Self ... where (however) nothing dual can cross ("It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven". )
And so, unless there's any major disagreement with what I've said (and as always, A. I'm perfectly fine if so, and B. I'm more than happy to be dead wrong (as Adya laughingly says, "All Enlightenment really is, is realizing we've been wrong about ... everything!")
... I don't see any conflict between practices and Advaita - practices are simply a (powerful, in my experience) means for working within apparent duality, in order to experience that it is (apparent duality) - and that non-duality is simply that which is real and changeless ... the Self (the One, Non-Dual Self) that we each and all are - that THIS is ...
Jayayam!
(Yay, THIS!)
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Mar 08 2007 10:30:20 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2007 : 10:23:48 AM
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Hi Kirtanman:
Glad to hear you have landed.
Great info. Thank you!
Here are two topics that tie in where some "advaita/dvaita" friction has emerged:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=2096 (it started here)
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=2195 (spin off)
These are good discussions, with deeper perspectives evolving about the relationship of practices and experiential non-dualism (advaita).
Also, there is an offline situation we are dealing with where an AYP person was blown to pieces at a recent Adyashanti Zen retreat. Too much of a good thing, resulting in a very sick aspirant. Total lack of "self-pacing" support at the retreat. So we have work to do in sorting out the relationship between AYP and Adya's approach -- which is, indeed, a powerful combination. He should be apprised also.
Aside from advaita/dvaita issues, this comes under the occasionally asked "non-AYP retreat" question. Maybe we need our own retreats? And certainly a better understanding about the potential benefits and risks for AYP practitioners participating in various other kinds of retreats.
This is all very exciting stuff, because we are going to bridge the gap between non-dual and dual one way or another. It is cropping up in multiple places these days, which means we are putting a face on it experientially. No more philosophical arguments about it are necessary. We are nailing "the thing itself." We are not talking about a few people having unity experiences. We are talking about consolidating practical means for everyone to cross over, and gracefully too. Much needed, yes?
Thanks for helping bridge the gap.
The guru is in you.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2007 : 5:26:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Hi Kirtanman:
Thanks for helping bridge the gap.
The guru is in you.
Hi Yogani & All,
Thanks for the kinds words and great suggestions, and yes - I agree that it's very exciting, that those of us with some semblance of perspective between the two views / experiences (advaita / dvaita) can hopefully be helpful to those of us who may not have such perspective yet - and - that offering pragmatic info vis a vis practices can be very, very key to the comfort, pace and relative (literally) success in moving toward Realization.
Per Adya's retreat (and the AYPer who ended up having a rough time) - I know, through my few years of association with Adya that A. the sum-total of his teaching concerning sitting meditation consists of, "Allow everything to be as it is" - period, and that B. he doesn't, as far as I know "speak" Self-Pacing - at least yet (I personally feel that this - Self-Pacing - is potentially one of the most valuable tools that AYP has to offer the world) ... and I'm guessing that Adya would support its applicability for anyone doing AYP-type practices.
(As we're all aware, practices such as spinal breathing, tantra and kechari which can massively increase the flow of kundalini / shakti / prana - can create a need to self-pace which may not be present ... or at least not as present ... in other systems).
As much as Adya "awakened out of Zen", he hails from the Zen tradition, and especially at the retreat levels, the nature and style of practice tend to be Zen-like ... albeit quite a bit more informal, in a good way (unless one is highly tied to the value of formality, of course ..... )
I would *almost* guess - though could certainly be wrong ... that the aspirant who became sick, was not simply "allow everything to be as it is" during the retreat's meditation times - and quite possibly repeating a mantra, and/or spinal breathing (etc. etc., depending upon their level of integration and adoption of AYP practices) - which would mean that (depending on how much of this they may have done) - that they increased their daily practice level "several X" or "several times several X" -- both of which would likely make ANY of us feel whacked, to a greater or lesser degree, proportionately speaking.
Beyond that, the two situations (which are more like two sides of the same coin) which I've seen (and/or heard about) cause deep disturbances (emotionally, mentally, physically, spiritually) when engaging in Adya-style, Zen-style meditation ... is when the individual is either A. dealing with an emotional or psychological imbalance or disturbance that they have brought to the meditation retreat (clinical psychological malady - depression, etc., addiction, highly intense interpersonal situation - divorce, major break-up, financial disaster, etc. etc.), OR, B. not ready spiritually to have the "intense" stuff arise (long-buried emotions, latent karmic energies, etc.) -- which can cause "need to self-pace" on any level (emotional issues can cause physical maladies, energetic release can imbalance emotions and/or mental stability, etc.)
In my experience, these types of crises are probably less than one in a hundred ... but they do come up ... especially when the given aspirant doesn't have enough spiritual experience or information, to realize what's happening (kundalini is simply batting them around like a cat with a mouse -- but not knowing this, they feel like they're "going crazy", etc. etc. .... or, they just feel terrible, with no clear-cut explanation.)
And please note ... I'm not saying any of this from an academic standpoint; I've been there myself ... now, thankfully, I just hopefully have the tools and information to deal with imbalances as they come up ... and the awareness, practices and self-pacing wisdom to help them "not come up" (here's hopin' .... )
So -- it might make sense to try to "troubleshoot", and find out exactly what this aspirant was doing or not doing.
I'm not saying that an Adya retreat couldn't put someone in a tailspin all by itself ... many retreats *can*, per their intensity and focus ... I'm just saying that it's enough of a rarity, that I would guess that the aspirant not understanding how to self-regulate AYP practices may have been a factor.
Another Silicon Valley spiritual group that's fairly popular, is Ananda (SRF offshoot - Kriya Yoga) - and there are a lot of people (including me) who have been involved with both groups.
Point Being: if someone were to actually ask, "Is it okay to do pranayam and mantric meditation, three or four times a day, during the retreat meditation sessions" -- a good number of the people a person could ask, at an Adya retreat, would either say, "No!" or "Not unless you do that every day, already!"
I hope that helps ... I certainly hope the aspirant who got sick feels better ASAP -- such overloads are no fun at all, as many of us know.
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman
PS - I love the idea of AYP retreats ... not sure when / where / how (as I imagine no one else is either, yet ...) - but love the idea!
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Mar 08 2007 10:33:32 PM |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2007 : 11:08:42 PM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2007 : 11:37:33 PM
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Hi Kirtanman:
Thanks for the perspectives. Yes, I think it was overdoing in sittings in the first full day on the 5 day retreat. No other extenuating issues were brought in that I am aware of, except a couple of years of AYP "pre-cultivation." The reported experience actually started out quite good (very advaita-like), but then went into an extreme energy overload with practically no sleep for days, leading to illness. The person is doing better now.
Bottom line: AYP deep meditation and Zen meditation are not the same, and someone with an established deep meditation background is going to go deep in a Zen-style sitting (zazen or vipassana), even without consciously using the mantra. With deep meditation, we gradually develop the habit of going deep simply by closing our eyes. Do that 4-5 times in long sittings on the first day of a Zen retreat, with lots of group satsang added, plus someone like Adyashanti around, and what have you got? Overload!
So, watch out for those multiple long sittings on a Zen (or any other kind of) retreat if you are established in AYP deep meditation practice.
Weekend and extended AYP retreat schedules were worked up some months back. They are very structured and measured on the number and duration of meditation sessions. We know that these schedules deliver more than enough purification and opening. To attempt to do more than this is risky:
Weekend Schedule: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=1416
Extended Schedule: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=1428
These schedules are for solo retreats, but can be applied for groups also, with an experienced practitioner appointed as leader for schedule management and monitoring of participants. Guidance in self-pacing should be an integral part of any retreat, certainly any time that AYP practices (or practitioners!) are involved.
The guru is in you.
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2007 : 2:07:17 PM
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Hi Kirtanman:
Did not intend to depart from the advaita/dvaita discussion you so eloquently embarked on in the first post here. The retreat situation was a pressing matter, and it turns out, we think, it had less to do with advaita than with overdoing in practices (with an inner AYP tendency) in an already highly stimulative environment.
Regarding advaita (non-duality) vs. dvaita (duality), my two cents are in a short post over here:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=2195#18510
Sort of a koan, really: "Stillness in action," the paradox of upholding both non-dual and dual via the ongoing experience of "the thing itself." It puts a twist on the philosophical/logical approach (which can't go there), and makes for interesting self inquiry too.
It is also in full support of "practices," which I don't think anyone can argue against effectively anymore. Seeking non-duality through non-doing is a doing. Those who insist on an attitude of non-doing may be expressing their own need to sustain a polarity that is intellectually unsustainable, though definitely experientially sustainable if we let inner silence move. Paradox! Non-doing comes only when we allow inner silence to do -- to flow out as divine love.
This world is stillness in action, and so are we. When we have come to that via practices, all is experienced as the eternal unmoving omnipresent silent One in perpetual radiant motion.
Do we stop "practice" then? No, we continue on for the benefit of everyone, who are an expression our self. Does the pure advaitist practice? Yes, in telling us what is the truth, he or she is practicing, though they may deny it. That denial is practice. Or they may go completely silent. That too is practice.
The guru is in you.
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jillatay
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2007 : 3:26:47 PM
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Sorry if I'm a smart a** but the non-dualists that have been most annoying seem to be saying repeatedly "I'm a non-dualist and you're not" 
My question with regard to a retreat (I'm very interested in having one here at my home) is about asanas. I don't see them mentioned. Could they be done during the physical activity or would that be too much stimulation?
Thanks very much,
Jill |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2007 : 3:52:07 PM
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Hi Jill:
Asanas are normally part of our practice routine -- asanas, pranayama, meditation, etc., in order like that. As you can see from the AYP retreat schedules (links above), it is the number of practice routines we are managing in relation to time on the retreat, physical activity, mental activity, meals, sleep, etc. Each person's practice routine may be a bit different, depending on where they are with building their routine, but the over all retreat schedule stays the same. It is designed to accommodate varying individual practice routines.
The activity during a retreat is for grounding in-between our practice sessions. Asanas can bring some grounding, but can also stimulate energy flow, so we keep them pretty measured in the retreat schedule as part of the practice session, along with spinal breathing pranayama and deep meditation. If we have not been doing asanas before a retreat, it is okay to begin a light set on the front end of the practice routine during the retreat. But we do not add on other practices during the retreat, like increasing practice times, mantra enhancements, mudras, bandhas, or whatever. -- that is a formula for potential energy overloads. Better to do additions other than asanas outside the retreat, and have them well-stabilized before we go on retreat.
If you are interested in doing a retreat, either solo or pulling a group together, I'm sure Trip/Brett (author of the AYP retreat schedules) will be happy to answer any questions you have.
An ideal way to get a group retreat together is to first form a weekly meditation group at home, and then, later on, move to doing occasional local retreats. Who knows where it might go from there? Maybe all the way to non-dual duality!
The guru is in you.
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trip1
USA
739 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2007 : 4:09:45 PM
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Hi All,
Just wanted to pop in here since I know the person in question quite well, and mention that they didn't do anything extra besides the sitting with no mantra that was offered at the retreat. So there was no spinal breathing or anything of that sort involved. The experience actually began during a dharma talk when a statement that Adyashanti made triggered a complete experience of self-realization in the individual. It was after this awakening took place that the energy started moving. For further clarification, this took place on the first day of the retreat and continued for the next five days. Also, Adyashanti confirmed the awakening himself on the final day of the retreat.
So did the realization happen due to too much sitting on the first day? Or did the energy blast happen in response to the realization? I personally don't know.
I do believe there is a bit more to the whole thing then a simple case of "doing too much" or "not self pacing", and I think brushing it off as such would be a mistake. In the end, this person is now realized, and overall I don't think that is a bad thing. Of course they also went to hell and back over the course of six days, and mentioned that it would take a very strong willed person to not completely lose their mind during this process. Fortunately for them, they are one of those people.
What has been lost in this person's case is a big piece of the actual journey. They took a huge leap all at once, and didn't get to experience a lot of the joy of the path unfolding (which I believe AYP was built for). It's funny, before all this I was one of the people that was in a great rush for enlightenment, and now realize how much I'd be missing out on if it happened today. The past year and a half has been the most miraculous time of my life, and I wouldn't trade that for the world. There is a saying that is escaping me right now which says something along the lines of "the journey is the goal". I think that fits in quite nicely here.
I am scheduled to retreat with Adyashanti in a few months, but will likely be canceling my reservation. I'm no longer in a rush to be enlightened, and am having trouble finding any other reason to go. Nothing against Adya of course, his path is just no longer for me.
Thank you Yogani for what you have given us.
Namaste,
Brett |
Edited by - trip1 on Mar 09 2007 4:14:53 PM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2007 : 10:10:15 PM
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Hi Brett:
Thanks for chiming in on the advaita/retreat discussion. I am looking forward to receiving more feedback on our Adyashanti retreat participant. Obviously, the ongoing experience there over time will determine what the result of this event has been, not what anyone might think it is, including me.
My main concern is that we don't have AYP folks going off and getting blown to pieces on retreats. Or, if they choose that, at least it can be done with eyes open. And maybe sometimes it will be unavoidable (like in this case?) -- when the divine call comes, that's it, we have to go, regardless of the consequences. I'm sure there are more than a few AYP practitioners out there who would choose to go through the "week of hell" if it really would produce realization. Of course, no one will be exactly the same as the participant who had the recent experience, so nothing is guaranteed, except maybe the week of hell for those who either seek it or stumble into it. 
In retrospect, my original advice on this matter was inadequate, and we have to look deeper so we can better advise on the potential rewards and risks of non-AYP retreats. Since we do not have a full scope AYP retreat program in place yet, I suspect we will be in this mode of looking at AYP practitioners meeting other systems of practice (or "non-practice") in retreat mode for some time. Perhaps there will be some good fits, and effective crossovers will go on indefinitely.
From the AYP point of view, it is a practical matter of optimizing progress with safety. With thorough information, each can choose for themselves. If we do what has to be done information-wise, no one will have to be flying completely blind, and the knowledge-base can keep building indefinitely on top of that. Who knows, maybe someday the enlightenment journey will be as smooth and reliable as air travel. Then everyone can go. Wouldn't that be nice?
On this journey, we'd like to lose all our baggage.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2007 : 12:26:36 AM
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Brett, do you have any perspective on where this person was at with AYP? Specifically, had s/he previously awakened kundalini? I'd really appreciate an answer on that if possible, it'd really enhance my understanding of things.
I agree with most of your sentiment, btw...in fact, I riffed on something similar a year ago, here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=851
But I wouldn't completely write off the Adyashantis out there. If you're trying to stave off little pushes of inspiration, then there's a lot of art not to look at, flowers not to sniff, birds not to listen to (that was what set Adyashanti off), etc! :)
I myself would not participate in a full-blown retreat in another spiritual system. Same reasoning as you: things are fast and dramatic enough with AYP, and I have little desire for some sort of "breakthrough"...or to change horses. But I do dip into a talk here, a book there. I find that a bit of contemplation and outside inspiration seasons things very nicely. Just my two cents... |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 10 2007 12:48:25 AM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2007 : 05:55:29 AM
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Perhaps we could built up an information base on AYP practitioners who have been on retreats and who go on them in future. I'm sure many have been on retreats, including myself, since starting AYP.
My experiences so far have been on a Thich Nhat Hahn 5 day retreat in Plum Village, France. This was very powerful for me, there were over 1000 participants and the energy was amazing.
The format of this consisted of only two 40 minute meditation sessions per day, a daily Dharma talk by Thich Nhat Hanh and the rest was mindfulness practice and discussions.
It had no adverse effects whatsoever, but I did enter some depts to unchartered territory for me.
Although I did no AYP during the retreat I felt it prepared me very well for it, but who knows what's around the corner.
So there is one success retreat story |
Edited by - Sparkle on Mar 10 2007 06:24:15 AM |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2007 : 06:08:14 AM
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quote:
The experience actually began during a dharma talk when a statement that Adyashanti made triggered a complete experience of self-realization in the individual. It was after this awakening took place that the energy started moving. For further clarification, this took place on the first day of the retreat and continued for the next five days. Also, Adyashanti confirmed the awakening himself on the final day of the retreat.
Thank you, for the post, Brett.
Did you mean that the person's Kundalini Awakened or that they realized the Self? I'm confused by the above post and was wondering if your friend would mind if you could explain more of what was experienced or did I miss where this was discussed in detail? I'm not sure:
Thank you, my friend:
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Mar 10 2007 06:10:25 AM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2007 : 10:22:17 AM
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Just wanted to chime in that we AYP practitioners can safely go to retreats as well though they could be in for a bumpy ride as this thread is demonstrating. I am not so sure it is because of practices though; I am more inclined to feel that it is a result of some people being sensitive to group energies etc. particularly if their own inner energies are already active. I participated in a 4 day retreat with Don Miguel Ruiz in Mexico. See here:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....ID=1455#1455
It wasn't an entirely smooth ride that's for sure, but the end result was a significant increase in awareness.
I continued to do my AYP practices throughout the retreat twice daily in a self-paced way, which was about 50% of my normal length of time for pranayama, meditation, mudras etc. Ironically, it was my first day there, with my first exposure to the group energy and the presence of Don Miguel and his son that really put me over. I couldn't sleep much at all the first night due to the significant amounts of group energy, and by my first AYP session the next morning I was burning on the inside like I had laid out in the sun for 8 hours straight instead of being in bed!
The next day I mentioned my issues to Miguel's son and he helped ground me for about 20 minutes which really helped me feel better. After the above experience the rest of the retreat was much smoother though I definitely had prana-burn pretty much throughout.
At this particular Ruiz retreat there was usually only 1 or 2 guided visualizations per day of about 20 minutes in length each in addition to what I was already doing AYP-wise. There were group talks by Don Miguel and his son and there were activities too.
By the time I arrived home, as mentioned earlier in this thread, everything had returned to normal energy-wise though my perception and awareness of my reality had been permanently changed.
Overall it was a very positive experience for me.
A
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trip1
USA
739 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2007 : 12:46:34 PM
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Hi All:
Just to clarify, I wasn't trying to say that retreats in general are no good. I retreat quite a bit myself and last week attended what I consider to be a very successful retreat with Sally Kempton. Retreats can definitely give us a nice boost along our path, and this is what I believe to be the focus of most gatherings (or solo excursions) of this sort. The ones that I personally no longer agree with are the retreats geared simply toward "awakening".
While these retreats might be great in the Adyashanti/Zen context which seems to be an "all or nothing" approach from what I have gathered (please correct me if I'm wrong here as I am definitely not a Zen scholar by any means), I'm not so sure that it works as well with a system like AYP which seems to be geared towards a gradual, smooth unfolding of enlightenment. My own theory is that there is much to be learned during the unfoldment process itself, and skipping it entirely may be of detriment to the newly awakened indivdual who is now taking it all in at once.
Jim had mentioned that he wouldn't participate in a full-blown retreat in another system, and I now agree with this as well. After a year and half of AYP Deep Meditation, attending a retreat where there is 4-5 hours of sitting per day seems like I would practically be begging for a bad time. Regardless of the style of meditation taught at the retreat (in Adyashanti's case "just sitting"), I personally have trouble even closing my eyes at this point without going extremely deep, mantra or not. This in turn makes the practice taught at the retreat much more powerful than intended for, likely resulting in drastic overpurification and who knows what else.
Louis mentioned the idea of creating a database of sorts, documenting retreats that AYP practitioners have attended. I think this is a wonderful idea and would like to take it one step further by creating a form to be filled out so that we make sure all the information that would be of help to someone looking for a retreat is in there. Using this information, we may one day be able to compile a list of "reccomended retreats" or retreats that seem to work well with AYP. I think this would be of great help to current and future AYP practitioners looking for retreats that would give them the boost they are looking for, without putting them in jeopardy of too much at once.
Jim: I don't believe this person previously had an awakened kundalini, but of course I can't be sure. The understanding that I have is that the initial realization (sparked by the dharma talk) triggered the six day experience of oneness/greatly expanded awareness, and that the kundalini experience seemed to follow suit. This is where I believe the combination of the two paths may have collided, as the person was apparently pre-wired enough through AYP for all of this to happen at once.
Oh and I definitely won't be writing off Adyashanti (I'm actually in the midst of one of his books) or anything else for that matter. I just believe that in this day and age with so many tradiditons accessible, we need to study the effects of combining them while keeping practitioners from blasting off the planet.
Thanks for the link as well, it is a very inspiring read. I think Meg also summed it up quite nicely in another thread where she wrote:
"An emphasis on awakening can be misleading and dangerous. I have a new appreciation for the methodical, self-paced approach that Yogani has laid out. :) Given the choice, I'd rather be grounded than enlightened."
Vil: To answer your question, I believe both happened, with the initial event being the realization of self. When the person spoke with Adyashanti on the final day of the retreat, he stated that they had awakened to truth. My personal thought is that this translates to an awakened mind, but I do not believe the heart was opened during this process. I'm actually a bit confused personally regarding the definition of "awakening" in the different traditions and will be starting a separate thread sometime soon to discuss it further.
Namaste,
Brett |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2007 : 1:12:27 PM
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Hi Brett,
Thanks for this clarification.
As far as "we're all One, but I'm more One than you are" (the "Advaitists" who have the "Advaitic-er than thou" attitude you described) ... my only comment is:
Egos abound everywhere, and every philiosophical / spiritual system has them - and thus have people who can't help make egoic comparisons, and/or an "us / them" or "we're better" set of attitudes.
In the Advaitic traditions which are more academic, you see this more (I find), in the Advaitic traditions which are more experiential in nature (Tantra / Kashmiri Shaivism, Zen Buddhism, Dzogchen Tibetan Buddhism, to name just three) - you see this less.
*I was going by Yogani's comments regarding the AYPer who had a rought time at Adya's retreat, and (hopefully) admitted I was guessing (about how they might have been practicing) ... I'm thinking many AYPers might have reached the same conclusion that I did - though I did also say that an Adya retreat could manage this kind of result "all by itself".
*I didn't realize (pun fully intended ) that Awakening was part of this person's experience .... and this is VERY much a "Kirtanman-Centric" viewpoint ... but I tend to categorize "Awakening with Overload" differently than "Overload Alone" - it's still unfun, but I "personally" (<-- "Advaitic" quotation marks ) carry a sense ... not of wanting to "rush" enlightenment ... but of ultra-high priority ... for Realization / Enlightenment ... and each time one of those "Awakening with Overload" experiences has happened to me, I've gladly accepted the trade-off, even if it has created a few days or weeks of discomfort. And, as with this person we're discussing, a few days of "hell" is the most I've experienced - and yes, it can be bad.
The tradeoff is: your entire internal and "external" landscape is changed, positively ... and the entire quality of your life improves ... vastly. For me, at least, the result has always been worth the pain -- though I'm also a huge fan / proponent of self-pacing ... and feel that self-pacing is one of AYP's biggest contributions to the human experience of consciousness-unfolding, made by any group, anywhere -- and I'm a lot less of a "maniac" than I used to be, as far as pushing the practice-envelope goes ... there's just an awareness now, a very comfortable one ... that this isn't needed (the envelope pushing).
However, even all the self-pacing in the Universe can't necessarily guard against being blind-sided by sudden Awakening (whether first, subsequent or whatever ... though, like anything else in life ... familiarity and repetition cause any experience to become more comfortable and "normal" seeming ... including the ability of our bodies, minds, and emotions to process and integrate Awakening experiemces.
Meaning: if this had happened to your acquaintance (talking / writing to Brett, specifically) after another year or two of AYP - their experience would probably have been less disorienting, and the integration more smooth ... but that can't be known for sure. AYP does certainly help condition / prepare our bodies (and minds, and emotional, energetic, immune, etc. systems) FOR the greater energies that attend Awakening and full, Self-Realization.
*Semantics / "Definition" Check: Adya often confirms Awakening experiences (an actual and authentic but temporary experience of one's true nature) ... but Full Realization (aka Enlightenment) is far less common ... and usually does not happen suddenly, except in very rare cases. If this happened to the person you know, I'd be interested in knowing more (benchmark: do they suffer in any way? As In: when they were going through hell, was there any actual suffering (?) - or would they have said something like "I'm in pain, and feel terrible ... but I'm perfectly fine, and perfectly at peace". (?))
Short definition summary, per above (and important note -- this is *my* working definition - and fairly common, but FAR from Universal - which can and does cause much "communication weirdness" in yogic / spiritual circles) ---- "Awakening is temporary; Enlightenment is permanent".
(As In: once the sadhaka has had an experience of their own true nature, and thus now knows, by experience - that all this seemingly wild "we are all One" stuff is nothing more nor less than Reality - and not just a bunch of nifty metaphorical concepts, or possibly distorted beliefs -- then, the real sadhana can begin.)
And PLEASE Note (anyone reading this) - if you haven't had an Awakening experience, you are NOT in any kind of a "less than" state or stage ... the practices and spiritual work which lead TO Awakening are every bit as important as anything that may happen after the initial (and subsequent) Awakening experiences and realizations.
It goes kinda like this:
*Person / Sadhaka feels a draw to yoga or consciousness studies / practices.
*After a few months or years, there's a breakthrough into an "Oh My GOD - it's REAL!! Woo-Hoo!!" Awakening experience (though, if it's an unexpected / major one, as with Brett's acquaintance - the "woo-hoo" may be delayed just a little).
*This is usually followed by several years / decades (at least; some would say "possibly lifetimes") of continued practice, repeated / deepening Awakening experiences and realization - which includes all the changes (including physiological) which we discuss in AYP all the time (and YES - it is possible to hit this general stage, without the "Oh My God" Awakening ... just as there's bio-individuality, there's spiritual individuality ... and we each can have a very different experience. In my experience and observation - a handful of years (which seems VERY short, at least to me, in retrospect) - usually makes a HUGE difference ... it's truly difficult, I would think - to practice yoga - especially AYP - for even five years or so -- without massive, fundamental changes / enhancements occurring in consciousness.
*At some point, Final Realization occurs - where this awareness of the true nature of Self (one's Self, everyone's Self, THE Self) is carried into every moment - and suffering (which is based in illusion, ultimately - things like sad, angry thoughts will always arise - they're not personal - they're generated by Life itself ... the truly Self-Realized are just aware that it was un-awareness of Reality, which cause the identification with them in the first place ... and when that falls away ... Satchidananda ... the bliss of the life-mind of Reality ... is what remains. )
In fact, in Zen / Tantra (Zen Buddhism in Japan emanated out of Ch'an Buddhism in China, which emanated out of Tantra Yoga / Tantric Buddhism, in India), there's an expression: "Awakening is the beginning of the path, not the end."
*Per comments above, that is basically the yardstick of Enlightenment (and a good one to use internally - meaning: each of us, in our own sadhana, as well as in terms of observing others) - when you're Enlightened, you can't suffer - because you know yourself to be ("period" ) - free from all that which causes suffering. Pain - whether physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, etc. etc. can and does still happen (I thing in my first post in the Guru section, regarding Adya, I mentioned him dropping a steel weight on his hand - which broke at least one finger in several places - he had to have surgery) - and people of course asked him about suffering, in relation to that situation - and what it was like for him, overall.
Adyashanti's response (paraphrasing, but this is close - it wasn't that long ago - few months) -- was, "Well, I had picked up this weight, and lost my grip, and it landed on my other hand, and there was PAIN" (and I don't recall for sure if he included the following, but he has before, about other things -- with his eyes really big - sharing the joke that "OOoooOOooh -- an 'Enlightened Teacher' would do THIS!") "And there was a bit of hopping around and grimacing ... and there might even have been some swearing ..." (laughter, from the audience / Sangha).
Adya then continued, "But was there any loss of peace? Nope. Why would there be?"
Someone then asked him, "Weren't you the least bit upset?" (by the fact this happened, as in: wasn't there a sense of "Oh, crap, I'm injured ... it hurts, and I have to go to the doctor ... this sucks!" <-- in fact, I think Adya responded to the initial question above by saying something like, "What do you mean?" - so the questioner clarified in a way very similar to the longer quoted sentence, above - I was there, I just don't buy the tapes as much as I used to; it's (Adyashanti Satsang) infinitely more about the subtle energies / consciousness "vibe", than it is about any words or information.)
Adyashanti responded, "Nope - why would I be upset. I kind of held up my hand ..." (he demonstrated - with the hand that was swathed in a HUGE bandage / cast thing) "And thought, 'Hmmm ... I don't think it's supposed to look like that ..." (chorus "Ewwww"s and cringing from the audience) "So, I called the emergency room, and described it - and they said to come right over - and it was one of those things where, when they see what you've got going on, they take you right in. I had to have surgery - but none of it was a problem; none of it made me upset - it's all life, it's all experience. I got this major Vicodin prescription. That's an experience!" (laughter) "And no, I didn't take any today, because I was doing Satsang tonight ... just for reference, if it ever comes up: probably not a good idea to take a bunch of Vicodin, and then give a dharma talk to several hundred people ...." (laughter from audience)
*The ratio of Adya confirming Awakening, in comparison to confirming Enlightenment (aka Full Realization) is probably several hundred to one ... which is reflective, I believe, of almost any spiritual group - AYP's numbers are probably similar (a small fraction of AYP practitioners - either due to time in practice, or overall mix of their spiritual life, bhakti, karma, personal habits, etc. - have had an authentic Awakening experience - "taste of their own true nature", aka Nirvikalpa and/or Asamprajnata Samadhi - and/or - have Awakened as tends to happen in Buddhist / Adya circles, where the veil falls away - and Oneness becomes obvious - which can be VERY disorienting, especially if it's never happened to you before, at all -- and -- you're in public (... "ish" - like at a retreat).
I'll tell you, though - if that's going to happen, there's not a better place than an Adya retreat - especially the first day! You're surrounded by supportive people, at least several of whom understand very intimately what's going on, and you have a few days off work to integrate!
*VERY IMPORTANT POINT: Adya's retreats are not designed to produce Awakening (or Enlightenment ... or anything else). Adya's retreats are designed to offer people a few days in silence - which usually helps to create a more "fertile ground" for initial awakening (if it hasn't happened yet), or an opportunity to explore the inner realms, if it has happened already.
It's up to you, of course, Brett - but I personally wouldn't cancel, out of any "fear" of sudden or disruptive awakening experiences.
I do know that Adya not only doesn't contribute any proactive, "shaktipatish" <-- grammatically correct California-Dialect Sanskritlish type energies which could facilitate Awakening in people ... he specifically stopped doing anything of the kind, years ago ... because of the crises that can facilitate in people (he has even said things like, "I don't know what I was thinking ... I was 'new' in my own Realization, and wanted to offer it ... but after seeing several people have their minds, and their lives ... flipped completely inside out ... and go into major crises ... I understood that there is no hurry ... and that there's no need to do that to anyone - I learned from that, and stopped doing it ... and no, I won't start again, no matter how much someone might beg ..." (laughter from audience)
Out of several hundred people at any given Adyashanti retreat ... only a handful experience any kind of crisis ... or even a really bumpy time, afterwards. For the vast majority, it's simply a beautiful opportunity to "immerse", to spend time with an Enlightened teacher, and (just about as important as the preceding two points), spend five days in silence (except for the Satsang sessions, which have standard dharma talks (<-- Buddhist term for spiritual lecture / talk by a teahcer) and dialog with retreat attendees -- and the experience while there, and afterward - is all (or almost entirely) positive.
*The more experience I have in my own sadhana (just passing this along to all, as an "FYI" ), the more I tend to proceed according to a sense of intuition (which has expanded in ways which make such intuition more inherently clear and/or "definite", as a result of practices) -- rather than any egoic / mind / rationality evaluation sense of "attraction or aversion" (per famous Bhagavad Gita quote from Krishna to Arjuna: "From attachment and aversion be freed" <-- which is ultimately more of a description of result, than a "serving suggestion", in my experience).
"Translation" - if it were me, I would probably get into a calm, quiet state (post-meditation rest is a good time, I find) - and just easily open to the consideration at hand (for you - Brett - presumably whether to, or not to, attend an Adya retreat, any time soon, per this conversation). Then, just notice what feels right - and/or (I've found this little tool to be extremely helpful) - just notice which option feels like the one that is going to happen.
Again, purely a suggestion - and not based on anything other than my own experience and results - just one that has helped me, at least - to feel more comfortable going with the flow of life (the course and events of which don't necessarily seem to alter much, based on our "decisions" - have you noticed?
As Adya oh-so-helpfully points out: "Yeah, it pretty much seems like life happens as it does ... we can either flow with it peacefully ... be in harmony with the Tao ... with Brahman ... with the 'will of God', if that's your model ... or, we can dig in our fingernails, and scream and swear the whole way, resisting our butts off ... yet life still seems to flow at about the same pace, and the same rate, and in the same direction ... regardless of what we think we 'choose' - the major variable is simply how much we resist ... or don't."
On the "Big Question" of Free Will, Adya (this is big, for anyone who may be skimming this post ... ) says (which, for what it's worth, my experience causes 100% agreement with - and I would guess at least a few of us who have been at this a while, would say the same) ...
... Adya says, "There's either no free will ... or only free will ... depending on who you're referring to; to the Self, there is only free will - to the egoic body-mind, essentially zero".
(Offered for anyone who may have had the related question(s) pop up, per my comments, and Adya's on "life happening as it does", or "ask yourself what is going to happen" (out of apparent choices).
Hope that helps - truly (meaning: I always hope my comments help; I just really hope these comment help. ). I'm a huge AYP fan, and a huge Adya fan - and find both sets of teachings (and practices, in AYP's case) -- to be VERY helpful to both rapid advancement AND smoothness (relatively speaking - we almost all hit bumps - including a few big ones - as Awakening / Realization unfolds) -- and personally, I would approach closing any door, with respect to either set of teachings ... very carefully ... provided, of course, you find them both (AYP / Adyashanti) to be helpful (and if you - Brett - were/are signed up for a Adya retreat -- I'm guessing that's the case).
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman
PS - (Obviously) this post falls into the KMLAP ... "Kirtanman Long-Ass Post" category - and I have some "3D" stuff I've got to get to ... so apologies for any typos ... non-sensical (or more than usual ...) statements, etc. .... I'll plan to review, clean-up / edit if needed ... when I can. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2007 : 2:46:07 PM
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Thanks, Brett (and others).
I guess what maybe happened was a sudden kundalini awakening (which, in and of itself, shouldn't have been that traumatic, given that the person has spent over a year diligently doing AYP) combined with a total crown opening (which is an area I know nothing about, having taken Yogani at his word that this is something to avoid exploring for a good long while...though he seems to be softening on that just a bit, at least for advanced practitioners).
I can't find the exact sentence in this thread, but someone said Adyashanti's followers repeat a line like "It's less traumatic if you don't hold back".
And...man, that's complicated!
In this thread: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=2210
I suggested to a seriously overloaded practitioner that:
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"when anything feels like it's pushing against you, or expanding past your bodily limits, LET IT. If your bodily borders are tender and bruised, don't use them to clamp down. Instead, make them a bit more open, permeable and transparent. Something you'll discover later, when things calm down (and they will! you haven't given it enough time yet!) is that all blocks are self-created by your own resistance. Anything you ever feel pushing you is just the effect of you resisting against something that was just neutrally moving through. Will this attitude cause an immediate breakthrough? No. It's gradual. But if you can bear this in mind, and see, in small bits, the truth of it, it will help."
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So I've given the same advice. But I, not being blessed with the utterly smooth grace of Adyashanti, realize that this is not a complete solution for those of us with less than his smooth grace! For me, and most of you, this is stuff to work on incrementally.
Now...if you're even GETTING overdoing symptoms, it means you've reached (or naturally have) the ability to go with the flow and let things happen to some reasonable degree. Even more so for this individual at this retreat. But this shows that it takes a very rare bird like Adyashanti to zoom up to that ultimate level of openness, foot flat on the accelerator, while opening opening opening free and clear the whole way. It's true, I'm sure, that if you can stay unblinkingly open, you won't get caught. I know I can't, and that's why I take baby steps.
Yes, the way to handle any spiritual puzzle (be it confronting the energies of ultimate liberation or confronting tight hamstrings in janu sirsasana) is surely to not resist. To melt and "let". But if we had the easy capacity to do so to the nth degree under duress, there'd be a lot more realized people in the world (and more people able to do perfect janu sirsasana on the first try!), because the capacity to open freely isn't just a means for managing awakening, it's also the exact capacity that gets you there in the first place! :)
That's the paradox, and I guess someone like Adyashanti can't relate to it, because he doesn't understand how relentlessly the rest of us hold on. His natural openness made him open early, easily, AND smoothly. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 10 2007 8:08:51 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2007 : 3:20:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
benchmark: do they suffer in any way? As In: when they were going through hell, was there any actual suffering (?) - or would they have said something like "I'm in pain, and feel terrible ... but I'm perfectly fine, and perfectly at peace".
Kirtanman, I'm not sure I agree with your benchmark. I rarely suffer anymore. I feel pain, sadness, all the usual stuff, but it's rare that I suffer. And I've recently completed a year that was oh-so-insufferable, just on the merits (I was grateful to have been presented so much grist for my yoga practice to grind against!). I mean, it's not 100%...but what suffering remains is a fleeting, weak thing, sort of like a couple of mildly smoldering twigs as opposed to the previous bonfire.
But I can tell you with great assurance that I'm definitely not enlightened/realized/liberated. So another benchmark may be necessary.
There is no distinction I can see between "peacefulness", a quality one gets fairly early in the game, and non-suffering. That is, unless one's "peacefulness" only appears during beach vacations or on lovely mountain retreats, and vanishes the moment negativity or conflict arises. Deeper levels of peacefulness are par for the course. And one can't, in my experience, experience true peacefulnes and still suffer.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
just notice which option feels like the one that is going to happen.
yes, that's one of the tenets of intuition. a slightly different way of framing it is to examine in your imagination the universe stemming from each of a set of conflicting circumstances, and feel which one is more real and truthful.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
There's either no free will ... or only free will ... depending on who you're referring to; to the Self, there is only free will - to the egoic body-mind, essentially zero.
Our ego is like a toddler steering his toy steering wheel with great attention in the passenger seat as daddy drives. We feel disoriented, angry, and disappointed that the car keeps turning when we don't, and that our turns often have no effect. It's a nauseating disconnection. But there are enough random coincidences (I steer my toy wheel and the car really does go that way) to keep us hooked to the delusion for our entire bloody lives.
Let go of the chintzy little plastic toy steering wheel, already. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 10 2007 3:44:51 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2007 : 11:06:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
benchmark: do they suffer in any way? As In: when they were going through hell, was there any actual suffering (?) - or would they have said something like "I'm in pain, and feel terrible ... but I'm perfectly fine, and perfectly at peace".
Kirtanman, I'm not sure I agree with your benchmark. I rarely suffer anymore. I feel pain, sadness, all the usual stuff, but it's rare that I suffer. And I've recently completed a year that was oh-so-insufferable, just on the merits (I was grateful to have been presented so much grist for my yoga practice to grind against!). I mean, it's not 100%...but what suffering remains is a fleeting, weak thing, sort of like a couple of mildly smoldering twigs as opposed to the previous bonfire.
But I can tell you with great assurance that I'm definitely not enlightened/realized/liberated. So another benchmark may be necessary.
Well, I'm not tied to my benchmarking in any way, if anyone has different or additional thoughts.
Essentially, Self-Realization involves dis-identification with the ego as the Self, which, with full Realization, essentially involves permanent peace ... even as the human body-mind experiences emotions, thoughts, etc. -- there's just no longer attachment or identification with those things ... an applicable Adya quote I love, is: "Enlightenment isn't freedom from being human; it's freedom to be fully human".
My point - and I have no sense of how well or poorly I made it ... is that some people confuse a fireworks-laden initial Samadhi or Awakening experience as Enlightenment or Self-Realization - and they're not.
As Adyashanti and Yogani have both emphasized over time, Enlightenment is not an experience; enlightenment is a permanent shift in awareness, into knowledge and understanding of who we really are - of the true nature of our Self.
So, "per that" - I was guessing that the confirmation that Adya offered to Brett's acquaintance was probably concerning an initial Awakening experience ... but not full Self-Realization to the same level that Adyashanti or Yogani may enjoy it.
My point wasn't to be right or wrong about any particular thing ... including what may or may not constitute Awakening and/or Enlightenment - but to hopefully clarify what Adyashanti is about (helping us to Realize Self via starting with Knowledge and Awareness (Jnana), just as AYP is helping us to Realize Self via starting with Devotion and Action (Bhakti & Kriya) ... though one of the things that causes me to find both groups so valuable, is that they very much "meet in the middle", and create (for me, anyway) a whole that is much greater than the sum of the parts.
Brett's post, describing his acquaintance's realization, and Adya's pronouncement ... caused me to feel slight concern that people unfamiliar with Adya might seem him as having a bit of an "Enlightenment Mill" approach .... ("Become Realized in One Retreat!") - and in my experience, nothing could be further from the truth ... so I was just hoping to clarify this, in ways that might be helpful to anyone reading.
I realize that Adya is likely not for everyone, just as AYP isn't - but I wouldn't want to see someone turn away from working with Adya's teachings based on any misperceptions about his approach - just as I would feel the same way, concerning AYP.
And Brett, and everyone - please note: none of the above is intended as any kind of a criticism of what you wrote - at all - I just saw some potential need (in my own mind, of course) for clarification ... and tried to offer it.
quote:
There is no distinction I can see between "peacefulness", a quality one gets fairly early in the game, and non-suffering. That is, unless one's "peacefulness" only appears during beach vacations or on lovely mountain retreats, and vanishes the moment negativity or conflict arises. Deeper levels of peacefulness are par for the course. And one can't, in my experience, experience true peacefulnes and still suffer.
Understood, and agreed, Jim. My benchmark was intended to describe degree and duration, rather than fundamental quality. An Awakened person has had their identification with ego, and its effects (emotional reactions, etc.) greatly reduced ... and therefore, the "volume" of their suffering seems turned way down, and the "volume" of their peace turned way up. Most of the time. Maybe almost all the time.
An Enlightened person (as I understand, per descriptions from Adya, Yogani, and others) - has finally experienced enough of a sum-total of neurophysiological evolution, along with karma and vritti dissolving Samadhi, and increased Awareness of what IS (usually gained by immersion in Silence, on a daily basis ... i.e. AYP practices) ... that the volume knob of ego-identification goes to "Off" (rather than just way down), and the volume knob of Peace-Bliss is "cranked to 11" -- 24/7 (rather than just way down).
I don't know if that benchmark example is any better ... and again, my points on the matter were motivated by a perceived need to clarify Adya's approach and outlook (which seem to be very similar to Yogani's - Adya is just a bit more inquiry / Zen based, and Yogani is a bit more bhakti-practices / Yoga based) - and neither of them advocate a "rock your world for five days and attain Enlightenment" approach ... and maybe it was clear to everyone else that Brett wasn't painting a picture of Adya proceeding that way, in his retreats ... but I had enough of a concern that it *could* have been taken that way, that I tried to clarify, in case it was needed.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
just notice which option feels like the one that is going to happen.
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yes, that's one of the tenets of intuition. a slightly different way of framing it is to examine in your imagination the universe stemming from each of a set of conflicting circumstances, and feel which one is more real and truthful.
Cool - I like that one, too - thanks!
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
There's either no free will ... or only free will ... depending on who you're referring to; to the Self, there is only free will - to the egoic body-mind, essentially zero.
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Our ego is like a toddler steering his toy steering wheel with great attention in the passenger seat as daddy drives. We feel disoriented, angry, and disappointed that the car keeps turning when we don't, and that our turns often have no effect. It's a nauseating disconnection. But there are enough random coincidences (I steer my toy wheel and the car really does go that way) to keep us hooked to the delusion for our entire bloody lives.
Let go of the chintzy little plastic toy steering wheel, already.
"Indeed" & "AMEN"!
Thank you for that, Jim (& Karma, as presumed co-author ... )
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman |
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trip1
USA
739 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2007 : 11:32:26 PM
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Hi Kirtanman,
Thank you for your wonderful insights on this subject, they are greatly appreciated by myself and the individual in question. I don't have time to write a full message at the moment, but just wanted to point out that yes, you are correct in that the awakening spoken of was the initial awakening experience, and not permanent enlightenment. Although this person experienced what seemed to be an enlightened state for six days, the full experience has now passed. So you pretty much described it to a T.
Looking forward to further discussing everything in the near future.
Namaste,
Brett |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2007 : 07:03:37 AM
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Hi All
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There is a saying that is escaping me right now which says something along the lines of "the journey is the goal".
The process is the result in time. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2007 : 02:10:40 AM
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Hi Jim,
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Kirtanman, I'm not sure I agree with your benchmark. I rarely suffer anymore. I feel pain, sadness, all the usual stuff, but it's rare that I suffer. And I've recently completed a year that was oh-so-insufferable, just on the merits (I was grateful to have been presented so much grist for my yoga practice to grind against!). I mean, it's not 100%...but what suffering remains is a fleeting, weak thing, sort of like a couple of mildly smoldering twigs as opposed to the previous bonfire.
But I can tell you with great assurance that I'm definitely not enlightened/realized/liberated. So another benchmark may be necessary.
Maybe you are enlightened and just haven't noticed it yet? Of course, all the true spiritual teachers seem to say that we are all already enlightened, but we just haven't noticed it yet, so it may not be such a wacky idea.
I don't think I'm too off thread here, as I think Adya says the same thing.
Christi |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2007 : 12:32:08 PM
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Christi, I don't know about that, cuz I'm not enlightened yet!
Going the opposite direction, if I stop meditating even for a couple of days, I suffer just like in the days of yore. Actually, it seems like the same, but it's a gauzier, more translucent overlay that I can see through (if I stopped meditating for a longer period, it'd surely grown opaque again and feel like 100% reality). So maybe enlightenment means you preserve 100% peacefulness without leaning on practices.
But who the heck knows? I'm not sure even those who sincerely deem themselves enlightened know, because while we gasp and quake at the slightest opening, we're all real real comfortable with unconscious backsliding (because whereas the opening feels new, the suffering and grasping feel extremely familiar!). It's like a ratchet wrench. So I have little doubt that some people who've experienced a full awakening deem themselves enlightened, though they're just running on the fumes of what they remember realizing but no longer inhabit. The backsliding is very very fuzzy. It's important to realize that. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 13 2007 1:01:36 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2007 : 12:49:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Thank you for that, Jim (& Karma, as presumed co-author ... )
Take away the karma and there's no Jim! And since this grasping, striving identity and the fleshbag it carts around has been revealed to me to be unquenchable in its desires and fatally flawed in even its noblest intentions, that'd be great. I want to just relax into the soup and make my distinct hue freely available to the Artist in this collaborative project. My greatest gift is unavailable to my self-stewardship (even the most worldly artists soon learn this!).
Thy will be done. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 13 2007 12:50:45 PM |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2007 : 1:29:49 PM
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Jim: Christi, I don't know about that, cuz I'm not enlightened yet!
Me either, Jim, but we can at least understand by experience and appreciate those little morsels of spiritual grace - that God is so generous to give - according to our limited capacity:
Like children, the more we're able to digest, the more we're able to handle solid food - Although we never desire to go back to being spoon fed nor do we forget that we were once children.
I think that's where the confusion comes in concerning the loss of ego. Some view it as the loss of memory or individuality or some other foreign thing, as if we suddenly become mindless robots or leaves tossed around atop the ocean without will or weil of our own. LOL.
From my limited experience of the Self, I can tell you it's not like that at all.
A parent corrects a child who resists in stubbornness until the age of maturity, when the child suddenly understands the discipline was for the child's benefit and also the greater good. And so the child finally decides to listen and go along with the Great Wisdom of the Parent and Loves the Parent even more.
God beats me daily: LOL: I'm very stubborn: LOL:
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on Mar 14 2007 01:19:53 AM |
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