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ajna
India
59 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 29 2006 : 08:22:42 AM
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Hi All
Couple of years back i read the book "The power of sub-conscious mind" by Joseph Murphy. At that time i did not quite believe in what he said. But a year back i had un-mistakable urge to tease and test the power of sub-conscious mind. I tried the following
- Before going to sleep i would request the sub-conscious mind to wake me up at a precise time like say 6: 16 AM in the morning and 100% of the times i was jolted out of bed either by an inner wake-up call or by an external agent like somebody honking the horn or knocking the door. I would check the time and it would be bang on 6: 16 AM (of course i tried with different times on different days and it worked)
- Then i extended this to my waking life as well. I would say to the sub-conscious mind to remind me to start preparing a meal at 12: 00 noon and forget about it. Bang at 12: 00 noon i will remember to start preparing for the meal.
Few interesting findings
- If i ask the sub-conscious mind for reminding me on something and keep expecting (which i think is the job of the conscious mind), the sub-conscious mind does not bother to remind 
- The ratio of external agent reminding (like knocking of the door by someone) vs internal trigger reminding, is roughly almost 50% each. I would have tried this experiment at least 100 times in the last one year. So iam not able to dismiss this as co-incidence
- It works only if it involves me. If i ask the sub-conscious mind to wake up my brother at 5: 00 AM in the morning it does not work
- It is safer to add clauses like "wake me up at 7: 00 in the morning without hurting anybody in the process". It may so happen somebody pours hot coffee on you to wake you up at 7: 00 AM (iam serious about adding the clause(s), as the sub-conscious mind seems to be madly goal-oriented  )
Iam still continuing my experiments, taking it to next level...will share the findings if i (rather the sub-conscious mind) succeeds
Anyone with similar experiences??
Cheers |
Edited by - ajna on Dec 29 2006 08:23:26 AM |
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lucidinterval1
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2006 : 11:39:05 AM
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Hi Ajna,
I have a similar experience where I trust my subconcious mind to wake me up without an alarm clock. I have not used one for maybe ten years and I have never been late for work. For years, up until a few months ago, I would wake up at 3:30 (within minutes of)to prepare for asana and go to work. Now my work schedule has changed and I can sleep in a little more!
With Peace,
Paul |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2006 : 2:38:45 PM
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Hello Ajna and Paul:
You can also use this same technique to reserve a parking space right by the door of any store or building you choose to go to, or to get rid of unwanted, recently appearing physical symptoms overnight, or to manifest whatever else you choose to, providing that a positive belief in the technique and a positive expectation of successful results accompany the sub-conscious program directives.
As a small word of caution, however....be careful what you ask for, and be specific in visualizing it, because you'll eventually get exactly that every time! 
Hari OM!
Doc |
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Hunter
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2006 : 8:47:39 PM
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Does anyone use this to meditate without using a clock or timer?
How wonderful, I am going to experiment with this.
Thank you for posting the topic. |
Edited by - Hunter on Dec 29 2006 8:56:40 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2006 : 11:47:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc
As a small word of caution, however....be careful what you ask for, and be specific in visualizing it, because you'll eventually get exactly that every time!
Thanks for the caution Doc.. I did learn real quick that you have to be very specific when you try to manipulate stuff... at times for your own sake.
quote:
Originally posted by Doc
You can also use this same technique to reserve a parking space right by the door of any store or building you choose to go to, or to get rid of unwanted, recently appearing physical symptoms overnight, or to manifest whatever else you choose to, providing that a positive belief in the technique and a positive expectation of successful results accompany the sub-conscious program directives.
How far have you gone with this? Controlling what time you wake up, and how long you meditate and reserving a parking spot are minor things.. but a lot bigger things can be controlled with this... how far is it safe to control? And does it effect your karma?  |
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ajna
India
59 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2006 : 12:01:26 AM
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Hi Doc - Thanks for the word of caution
Hi Hunter - Iam yet to try this for timing meditation. It is a good idea
Cheers |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2006 : 12:35:38 AM
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OM, Shanti, and All!
The applications are primarily limited in manifestation only by our own beliefs and expectations. In other words, a direct correlation exists between qualitative belief in the probability of manifestation combined with the expectation of success, and the quantitative results or final outcome of the application. 
Karma accrued in so thinking and doing is directly dependent upon the intention in manifesting, and the resulting benefit or harm to self and others. Thus, the rather benign examples I used are pretty safe applications, IMO. 
For example, securing a parking spot close to the door is ultimately of minimal benefit to me...as I am quite capable of walking a greater distance if I have to...and getting a good parking place isn't intended to harm anyone in any way.
Additionally...I always remain open to whatever is manifested by the Grace of God for the greatest good of all present...right here...right now...regardless of my visualization, and without attachment to the final outcome or end result. And So Be It! 
Hari OM!
Doc |
Edited by - Doc on Dec 30 2006 12:42:17 AM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2006 : 09:59:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc
Additionally...I always remain open to whatever is manifested by the Grace of God for the greatest good of all present...right here...right now...regardless of my visualization, and without attachment to the final outcome or end result. And So Be It!
I have looked at it this way too... till a friend of mine said.. "have you ever thought how this is affecting your karma?".
I really do believe whatever has to happen will happen.. and yet I have tried to control situations... In many cases it has worked.. So did I really do it or was it pre-ordained anyway?
For the last 8 months, I have made a conscious effort not to think one way or the other about a situation.. it's hard, since I have been doing it for about 10 years now and its is almost second nature.. but I am trying to see if I just let it be and not think, how things unfold. Funny thing is.. it has unfolded beautifully (so far.. waiting for it to crash  ).. and with absolutely no effort on my part.. and it all fits in beautifully with what you said above.. and it is something I believe in too..
" always remain open to whatever is manifested by the Grace of God for the greatest good of all present...right here...right now...regardless of my visualization, and without attachment to the final outcome or end result. And So Be It! "
Thanks Doc.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2007 : 1:26:14 PM
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" always remain open to whatever is manifested by the Grace of God for the greatest good of all present...right here...right now...regardless of my visualization, and without attachment to the final outcome or end result. And So Be It! "
Well this is really the strongest mechanism that makes it work anyway. The ironic thing about it is, if you have enough faith in God by keeping thoughts in your mind like the one above, then no attempt at control or visualization is necessary.
In other words, God's energy will manifest in your life to the degree that you believe in him. As the belief gets stronger, things will manifest like the parking spot, automatically. When they don't, and your faith is strong, you don't care because you know it's for the best. Then, later on, you will see why it had to happen the way it did. |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2007 : 5:23:44 PM
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Quite so, Etherfish. I like your summation. Well said indeed!
Hari OM!
Doc |
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AccidentalYogi
21 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2007 : 12:33:30 AM
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I'd just like to add a note of caution. The mind truly can manifest whatever it would like. In the begining of my spiritual journey I was using a lot of drugs. I remember one time I spoke a loud. "I would really like some of this drug". Not 5 seconds later a guy I know appeared and had exactly what I had asked for.
The problem with this is that that drug was doing me no real good. Actually I got a bit inflated by the fact that yes indeed, I can ask for things and they will appear. Wow did this lead me onto a destructive God-complex.
Now a days I feel embarressed to ask for something like a parking space or a blueberry muffin or something. I've done it... gotten it... and just felt silly for putting it to the test. I find it much more rewarding... and much safer to simply let whatever is needed at the moment be. It's easier to stay humble that way.
I do like the alarm clock idea though. Maybe I should tell my roommate about it so his clock doesn't wake me up when he's got classes. Will have to give it a try.
Namaste |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2007 : 01:33:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by AccidentalYogi
The problem with this is that that drug was doing me no real good. Actually I got a bit inflated by the fact that yes indeed, I can ask for things and they will appear. Wow did this lead me onto a destructive God-complex.
Namaste
Hi Accidental Yogi,
Welcome to the Forum!
Thanks for sharing this - important distinction, for sure.
In my experience, there are a couple of major levels to this dynamic (realizing how incredibly powerful manifestation principles can be).
First, we experience the type of thing you describe, and our egos have a field day ("Woo-Hoo - I can have anything, and make anything happen!").
And while this is largely true -- as egos so often do, a couple key points tend to be missed:
*That our ego may well manifest (or seek to) things that are not in our own best interest (as with your drug example).
*The the 10% (or less ) of the conditioned, apparent ego-self that is "above the surface" -- and thinks it is consciously manifesting - is actually being carried along, like a leaf on a rushing river - by the 90%+ of karma / conditioning / subconscious-unconscious detritus ... which actually drives intention, thought and behavior.
(Humbling, and oh-so-useful, when we at least begin to see this, yes?)
Then (Second), after a bit more purification (aka "settling down of vrttis", aka "calming of the waves of the pond of the mind") - we begin to "get" that the we who we think we are (words don't always describe reality so good, y'know? ) - is actually nothing more than YAAT (Yet Another Arising Thought) -- and that therefore, letting it drive, is kinda like letting your buddy, who just finished a six pack, a bomber joint, and a miscellaneous pill or three -- drive home ("S'okay - I drive reeaaally fasht when I'drinkin'!!).
Then - (and in my experience / awareness only then) - we can drop the ego-games ... and manifest on levels that are a bit more meaningful than parking spaces or blueberry muffins (not that there's anything the least bit wrong - or - un-awake, about either one of those -- enlightened yogis may want to park close and/or chow down on blueberry muffins, too .... )
However ... when we finally, truly understand (related to manifestation, in this case) that ego-desire is resistance - and realize that the more stepping-aside that can be allowed -- the more true Life / Power / Tao / God will come shining and flowing through ... then, the fun can really begin!
I certainly can't claim to experience anything near perfection in this, mind you -- but have had enough of a repeated taste, and have experienced enough of an ongoing increase (seemingly, in direct correlation with AYP practices ...) in the distinction between Make / Force manifestation and Flow / Allow manifestation ... that I definitely prefer the latter!
Ultimately, the physical plane is (effectively) a giant copying machine ... we get whatever we truly want, always.
Really.
But what if you want a million dollars?
It still works, perfectly: you get the experience of wanting a million dollars, yes?
And there's certainly enough more to this, that it can't be covered in a single post (even one of mine .... <--- you may not know this yet, Accidental Yogi - but the general non-shortness of my posts has been mentioned a time or three. )
For some consummately powerful examples of how non-egoic manifestation principles can work in the "real world", though -- I will summarize in two words:
Mahatma
Gandhi
Again, welcome, Accidental Yogi - and thanks for the great, and thought-inspiring post!
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman
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Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2007 : 3:59:10 PM
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Hello you people appear to be more spiritually experienced than me so I would like to clarify my doubt regarding using the power of the subconscious mind. For example if I'm an introverted unpopular guy unable to get dates with women, and I sit down and vividly imagine in my mind simply that all those girls get attracted to me, then I would agree that it is a wrong ego strategy and I'm going against nature seeking some results for personal gain. Not to mention that it has weak power of manifestation because I'm not ready to improve myself first but am greedy.
On the other hand, if I sit and imagine that I'm becoming more of a charming and interesting guy, flowing naturally with people and in the process get more dates, is there anything wrong with that strategy? There is not so much of a selfish thing here. I'm willing to open naturally to people, break open my introversion and take the pain of making a personal change and not comfortably sitting behind my selfmade inhibitions, and in the process, desire to get more dates. And this kind of imagery probably has more manifesting effect because there is a giving and receiving, and just asking for receiving. Isn't it perfectly okay to use the power of the subconcious mind for such things? Thanks in advance for any reply. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2007 : 12:31:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
How far have you gone with this? Controlling what time you wake up, and how long you meditate and reserving a parking spot are minor things.. but a lot bigger things can be controlled with this... how far is it safe to control? And does it effect your karma?
Just saw this thread. How does it affect your karma? karma is accrued every time you perform an action with attachment to its results, rather than simply perform an action out of surrender to the flow. And since what you're talking about is 100% tied to trying to create a result, it's on the same level with rooting (or even praying) for your football team to win or any other grappling around we do in the maya/samsara. You are muddying your windshield.
Using spiritual energy to create a result in the world of illusion (AKA "the real world") is occult, not spiritual. The spiritual path involves transcending identification with the world of illusion by surrendering to all that is. As you loosen that identification, the universe may work, less and less impeded, through you. But you're out of it. You're not doing anything but simply go with the flow. THY will be done...not MY will.
The occult is diammetrical. it's about remaining in the identification, and, rather than surrendering, you work to gather skills and power to achieve results. It's a trap, because it plants you more firmily in the ground you're trying to transcend, it magnifies rather than reduces your ego (in both the western and the eastern sense), and you're not only accruing karma, you're reinforcing your inclination to accrue karma. You're not letting go and letting God. You're holding on and playing God. The funny thing is how people fool themselves...and sincerely think they're dropping what they're grasping harder and harder. For one thing, we get what appears to be positive reinforcement in the form of ecstacy as we work with energy. Every one of us has surely noticed, working with energy gives the illusion that we're always on the brink of some sort of "breakthrough", when really it's just energy moving around...and the ecstacy created by that movement.
The trap is pernicious because we're led into it with good intentions ("I'll use it to HELP!"). and we all know about good intentions (even some of the most spiritually developed and purified beings of the century have given in, shockingly, to temptation....and I know it's going to be a long long while before I'm more impervious to such temptations than they). And it's particularly trappy when you start using spiritual practices themselves to achieve "real world" results, e.g. healing samyama. It subverts the goal-less intentions of those practices (the final goal of unity with God being the last to drop off).
But it's not just a matter of the slippery slope to selfish or cruel use of power (though, again, we all know about the path of good intentions and about the corruptions of absolute power). It's a matter of karma...and you raised the question about karma. So long as we deem the universe imperfect, we're blocked. And so long as we rail against it, trying to change it, we're straining against the block. And so long as we develop spiritual power in order to make the universe more as we'd like it to be (even if that truly is a happy, fluffy vision completely unaffected by our own ego...though EVERYTHING in this world is affected by our ego), we're dumping hailstorms of mud on our windshields (i.e. accruing karma).
There's a good amount of the occult in AYP...e.g. in the Secrets of Wilder book and the real world applications of Samyama in Yogani's latest book (which I otherwise greatly enjoyed). There's nothing inherently "wrong" with it, but it's important to bear in mind what things are. As Yogani always suggests,, we take out of this splendid practice what we think best for our paths. Mileage varies. Me? I don't want to be a high and mighty power. I don't want to "develop". I find that my best laid plans and calculations are always degraded and corrupted by my human imperfection, and so I'm not looking to super-fuel my ability to achieve my imperfect human goals. So I need to "do" less and "let" more (note, please that Samyama can be used to blur that line by making the "doing" very faint...it's potentially another trap). I want to relax every twitch of my resistance to God's plan...AKA "the flow"...AKA "what is"). What happens then is not for me to decide.
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=1189 |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 23 2007 1:18:47 PM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2007 : 8:50:39 PM
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Great post Jim, this topic has been on my mind a lot the last little while so I am glad we are looking at it in this thread.
I know the theory of the law of karma but all I can work from is personal experience. I know, as you point out, that when I attach to an outcome, I will suffer. I have also come to realize that if I simply enjoy doing or just being, then what ever happens, happens. I have no attachment to the outcome but I do love the process of creating my reality.
We are all engaged in this daily, we meditate and little by little we transform our thoughts to the positive side of the equation. Our thoughts create our reality, what we give out, we tend to get back. The process is fulfilling in itself, we enjoy meditating and how it makes us feel, so we meditate. If we are waiting for some experience to manifest then we are attached to an outcome and will experience the swings of duality along the way.
We are all already creating our realities every day. Our energy, thoughts and emotions attract our realities to us, it is part of what we are. The more love, gratitude and positive we put out into the world we tend to get back, conversely this is equally true for the negative side of the equation. It happens unconsciously much of the time, this creative process. Is it a bad idea to engage in it consciously? This is a good question, do we take an active approach to our living or a passive one, I don't know the answer, but I am pretty sure we are here to live, plenty of time to be spirit when we die!
Thinking out loud here, where would the world be without the efforts of Ghandi, Mother Teresa, Nisargatta, Tolle, Yogani, Byron Katie etc.? Their living and acting is positively or has positively affected the world around them. They seem to have all acted out of their love for something?
We do engage in the process of actively creating our reality consciously in samyama practice. We do it in a way that doesn’t create attachment by not identifying the specifics of each sutra. We don’t by saying abundance that I want such and such, we simply say abundance and then we sit back and enjoy whatever form the universe manifests it into our lives.
The further I go along the spiritual path the more I notice that I am coming to love all outcomes. If I am aiming for a target and hit it, I love hitting it, if I miss, I love missing because I get another chance to aim again and the miss tells me exactly what I need to do to hit the target next time. I love how the difficult times/ emotions in my life point me to where my thinking makes me suffer. I get a chance to clean it up and go forward that much happier. I love my fear, it tells me pretty definitively what I don’t want.
Hopefully others will chime in with their perspectives too.
A
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blujett8
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2007 : 9:07:12 PM
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**totally awesome, anthem**
your post is right on time, thanks for the gift |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2007 : 10:07:06 PM
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Anthem, being spiritual doesn't mean declining to take action because everything's so perfect.
Yes, we act. And yes, trying to help and support is good and fine....and inevitable. I'm not saying we must refuse to feed a starving baby because one mustn't intervene and mar the perfection of the universe!
It's a question of attitude. The spiritual path is about LESS YOU. Thy will be done...not MY will be done. When the construct of "you" drops away, what's left is pure love and power. But if you go for the power before that all-essential drop-away, it ain't ever gonna drop. Because that which needs to drop clings to the desire for power and glory. And it rationalizes its grasping for power by saying "I can use it to do good." Through the ages, that's been one of the great traps. I'll grow to be a superstar...and then I can HELP!
God can do far more good than you can and can help far more ably. So don't try to grow into being God, or learn backdoor ways into his toolchest. Just do yoga to open up, and let Him have His way with you. You are, already, the perfectly shaped tool for the universe to accomplish what it needs to accomplish via your unique existence - whether you're open to the fact or not. But you can serve far more if you don't fight it. And we fight it via the notion that we are individual separate entities performing actions to control our environments. Those actions respond endlessly and slavishly to our aversions (which repel us) and our attachments (which attract us)...some of which we deem noble and "spiritual", though all are cut from the same insubstantial cloth.
It's about LETTING actions be done according to the flow...not doing stuff. And that does NOT mean inaction. Again, please read this poem, which expresses it as well as I'm able to: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=1189
BTW, God's a loaded term. If it rubs anyone the wrong way, there are any number of terms to swap in. I'm not referring to some judgemental bearded dude on a cloud. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 23 2007 10:49:51 PM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2007 : 11:41:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
It's a question of attitude. The spiritual path is about LESS YOU. Thy will be done...not MY will be done. When the construct of "you" drops away, what's left is pure love and power. But if you go for the power before that all-essential drop-away, it ain't ever gonna drop. Because that which needs to drop clings to the desire for power and glory. And it rationalizes its grasping for power by saying "I can use it to do good." Through the ages, that's been one of the great traps. I'll grow to be a superstar...and then I can HELP!
Hi Jim:
But isn't "attitude" a doing also? This is one of the gripes we can have about advaita teachers who encourage us to walk around developing "an attitude" about the non-duality of existence, while ignoring the rest of the yoga tools that are available to us. Non-duality is inspiring. Yet, it will not take us far without bringing other elements of yoga in, like bhakti, deep meditation, pranayama, samyama, and the rest.
Letting go isn't going to be letting go until we are doing something else to enable it.
Taking advaita to be a magic bullet is as flawed an approach as taking any other single aspect of yoga to be a magic bullet. I know that is not what you are advocating, Jim. It was felt the point ought to be emphasized though, because so many get the idea that spiritual practice is a non-doing. Well, it is, and it isn't. When we find ourselves in that paradox, even in our daily practices, we will know we are on to something. Like in that AYP lesson, "The Art of Doing Nothing."
Stumping for "letting go" can be like three day old fish, if nothing else is added into the mix. No two people are in exactly the same place consciousness-wise, and "letting go" is a "place" thing, not something we "do." It depends almost entirely on our experience of inner silence. In the vast majority of cases where real spiritual practices and progress are occurring, the habit of letting go in daily living is an effect rather than a cause. Yet, as soon as it (non-duality) appears it is often granted primacy in the over all scheme of practices, like a holy grail that anyone can grab instantly. The irony is that non-duality is nothing but an illusion for all but the anointed few, and those few do not help us much by offering it as a magic bullet. Personally, I think everyone will be anointed, but it won't happen by beating on the illusion of non-duality, no matter how real it ultimately will become for all of us.
So why do we keep telling people that "letting go" in everyday activity is a primary practice and cause of enlightenment? It is one of the the hardest ways there is to approach spiritual development. Hard because it sounds so good, makes so much sense, produces wonderful fantasies, and rarely delivers except to those who have significant exposure to other spiritual practices. It is very difficult (dare I say impossible?) to use an effect as a primary cause, because the effect must come to us from a deeper cause, something that will transcend our mind, and our attitudes.
It takes an integration of practices to get the job done. If we have found out one thing here in AYP, it is that an integration of effective yoga practices produces far more results than any magic bullet practice can, including the self-inquiry of advaita. All of these methods are meant to work together over time, and none stands alone. If we have to pick one practice, better make it deep meditation, as it is the one most likely to lead to all the rest, because it is the direct cultivation of inner silence within us.
Of course, even deep meditation must be preceded by desire, which we call bhaki. Bhakti (our desire for higher truth) is the primary engine of the entire process. All endeavors in yoga need desire, including advaita and its tools of self-inquiry. Oddly enough, self-inquiry is closer to bhakti and relies on it more than nearly every other branch of yoga, even as it denies it!
With an integrated approach to practices, we can bring fruition to self-inquiry, to non-duality, and to stillness (non-duality) in action as outpouring divine love. When we have found ourselves in the middle of that wonderful paradox, we will know we are on to something beyond the imaginings of the mind. The world is both non-dual and dual. This is a fact that neither side of the argument finds easy to accept. Until we find ourselves in the paradox, we will not see the whole picture. It is what it is, in us, not what anyone else says it is. We will find out what it is by our own direct experience, assuming we practice wisely and avoid getting shot with one of those magic bullets.
Well, just some food for thought. And then for letting go, of course.
The guru is in you.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2007 : 02:24:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
But isn't "attitude" a doing also?
Ha, I knew someone would call me on that word choice. That's why i edit my postings 17 times...trying to get the wording as precise as I can. You do such a great job with that, Yogani. Your word choices are always conscious and get the job done better than more achingly precise alternatives. I was, clumsily, trying to do the same here...to go for flavor rather than precision. Of COURSE I'm not talking about attitude in the usual sense. But I was trying to convey that there's a shift in viewpoint (I could quibble with that word choice, too...who's doing the viewing?)...and that there's a shift in all this is the whole point. It's the shift wherein you cease to do things for the fruit of their result. it's the shift wherein you let go and let God.
Speaking of letting go (and the second half of your posting), you said something really interesting to me a long time ago: too much letting go can be a kind of hanging on. I've held that caution closely ever since. But a couple of years have gone by, and I still have line to let out on that before it starts going the other way.
Here's how I know that: I've always been rather tense, so AYP has taken me down a path I could best encapsulate with one word: relaxation (a word I used to hate back when I was tense!). My resting heart rate has slowed vastly since I found AYP. And people tend to describe me now as "laid back" and "peaceful", which makes me giggle uncontrollably, knowing what I recently was. And here's the thing...I keep noticing the dissolution of pockets of previously undiscovered tension and resistance. So as long as letting go continues to show tangible indications of further relaxation, I'm not worried about hitting that wall.
You may have started out less uptight than I did, which might make you undervalue the amount some people truly do need to go in their letting go. But I'm not sure that's the issue. The letting go leads into both samadhi and shakti for me, faster and faster (and deeper and deeper), as I erase those finer and finer pockets of resistance. I'm still bearing your caution in mind the whole way, but I haven't yet seen need to tow in the letting go.
Oh, and I'm certainly not suggesting that the letting go can be merely contemplative, but I don't think you're talking directly to me on that point. The letting go I'm talking about occurs in meditation, aided by the incredible *** of mantra (I write asterisks, because any way I'd limit mantra via language would be wrong...mantra is everything, and more than that!). What happens inside in meditation and what happens outside are one and the same. But you have to go in to go out (as you write). |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 24 2007 02:37:13 AM |
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ajna
India
59 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2007 : 05:16:23 AM
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This discussion is getting interesting. As Yogani pointed out the world is both dual and non-dual simultaneously. We can only experience either of the states, not both at the same time (as told by Ramana Maharishi). When we are at the door-step of the metaphorical door separating the dual and non-dual states, we have a choice to look one way or the other, not both. But to get the ability to reach the door-step at will, practices are essential  . After that there is a choice to drop practices.
Regarding the point on choiceful manifestation vs letting go, this brings us back to the discussion on the existence of free-will. The events in our lives may happen first in our minds and then in the phenomenal world, which makes us believe we chose or had a say on the outcome. If the events happen in the phenomenal world and then the mind notices we believe of letting go. In the former case, what-if the cosmic intelligence source (whatever that may be) knew the events that will unfold and made us choose them?? So the only difference between the two cases is, in the former the ego plays a part, but in the latter it does not. So both are technically letting go scenarios.
Cheers |
Edited by - ajna on Feb 24 2007 06:26:27 AM |
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Mike
United Kingdom
77 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2007 : 08:19:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Maximus
For example if I'm an introverted unpopular guy unable to get dates with women, and I sit down and vividly imagine in my mind simply that all those girls get attracted to me, then I would agree that it is a wrong ego strategy and I'm going against nature seeking some results for personal gain. Not to mention that it has weak power of manifestation because I'm not ready to improve myself first but am greedy.
On the other hand, if I sit and imagine that I'm becoming more of a charming and interesting guy, flowing naturally with people and in the process get more dates, is there anything wrong with that strategy? There is not so much of a selfish thing here. I'm willing to open naturally to people, break open my introversion and take the pain of making a personal change and not comfortably sitting behind my selfmade inhibitions, and in the process, desire to get more dates. And this kind of imagery probably has more manifesting effect because there is a giving and receiving, and just asking for receiving. Isn't it perfectly okay to use the power of the subconcious mind for such things? Thanks in advance for any reply.
Hi Maximus
Your post seemed to go lost in the midst of some huuge ones... anyway some little thoughts on your questions...
I am not so sure that there is such a huge difference between the two scenarios you outline above... In terms of "you create yourself" ... creating oneself (whether its conscious or subconscious) as "introverted, unpopular" or "charming and interesting" are both creations, both part of the personality process...
In my experience direct and indirect... in *all* cases where guys think they aren't successful with women its a self-fulfilling prophecy... In *all* cases where guys think they are successful with women its a self-fulfilling prophecy. Thus there isn't much difference between the paragraphs as its the belief/thought that "I am not attractive to women" that is the problem ... so 99% of the work in self-transformation is letting go of that anyway.
As we are not monks there is nothing "bad" or "egoic" in wanting to find a mate... in the absence of such a process humanity would die out - its certainly not "going against nature" - it is nature
As long as you are not telling lies whatever supportive thoughts or visualisations you use to support your confidence is merely a skillful means... what works for one person might not work for another.
Hope this helps dude.
Mike
ps some cracking material from all in this thread but I gotta say this idea that AYP contains "occult" (at least as defined in my dictionaries and experience) is inaccurate and distasteful... AYP is 100% white ... no dark stuff even if some funny stuff in the mouth
pps in passing I tend to find western folks in fora using the word karma as if it is a clear and simple concept commonly agreed across traditions. It is not . Its entirely OT here but:
i) karma is the action ... the fruit of the action is vipaka - so the western usage of karma is the wrong way round anyway lol... but taking karma as the result of action ...
ii) different traditions have different views about what is and what is not a karmic act... The Ajivakas did not believe in a theory of karma and believed that everything was pre-determined... For the Brahmins karma was tied up with rites and rituals... For Jains any act - intentional or non-intentional creates karma... For Buddhists only intent creates karma...
Anyway you get my drift - karma has entered the English language as a simple word and everyone kind of feels they know what it is but open the lid and its more like pandora's box ... plenty of choices as to what one believes karma is or isn't.
For anyone thats interested in this subject as a taster here http://purifymind.com/IdeaKamma.htm is something that leaped out of google - I had read it before, its by an American Buddhist monk and talks about the 'modern' (American view) and some of the key differences between the Buddha's concept of karma and the Brahmins (~proto-Hindu's) |
Edited by - Mike on Feb 24 2007 08:26:46 AM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2007 : 08:45:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ajna
This discussion is getting interesting. As Yogani pointed out the world is both dual and non-dual simultaneously. We can only experience either of the states, not both at the same time (as told by Ramana Maharishi). When we are at the door-step of the metaphorical door separating the dual and non-dual states, we have a choice to look one way or the other, not both. But to get the ability to reach the door-step at will, practices are essential . After that there is a choice to drop practices.
Hi Ajna:
But "stillness in action" is both, and therein lies the paradox of both the world and human enlightenment.
It is time for us to cross this bridge in our understanding of the nature of yoga practices and spiritual experience, mainly so we can practice with confidence and quit being a yoga house divided. The practical (and self-paced) integration of all yoga methods is the key to getting everyone anointed -- self-anointed, that is.
The guru is in you.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2007 : 12:51:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
But isn't "attitude" a doing also?
I've got a better response this morning. No, it's not a doing. it's the opposite of doing. But it's going to take some doing to explain in words. I'll try to make it entertaining, at least.
For most people at most times in their lives, they are doing battle with their environments. Trying to increase the good stuff and decrease the bad. Living for the bus door to open, living for the bus to get to work, living for the elvator to come, living for lunch, living to get the food, living to eat the food, living for the elevator to come, living to get back to desk, living for 5pm, living for the elevator to come, etc etc on the small scale, plus all the big inadequacies, cravings, and blemishes.
We're on a treadmill, and we're constantly trying to tinker with our environment to make things just right so we can finally say we're THERE. We try to get more money, more sex, more power, more love, more admiration. Lose the weight, lose the guy upstairs who plays his music too loud, lose the boss, lose the stain on my shirt, the drenching rain, the traffic, my headache, it's cold in here, I'm hungry, I'm sleepy, my last girlfriend never should have said THAT to me.
Our actions, to an astonishing degree, consist of trying to tinker with the mix and get it all just right. And one day we find ourselves at a beach in a comfortable chair, and finally say "ahhh...I wouldn't change a thing about this moment!" What happens in the next moment, to make us lose that? Cancer? Thermo-nuclear war? No. Just some niggling inadequacy or yearning picked up by our minds...perhaps even something unreal in the here-and-now, flushed up from the past or conjured up as a possible future. And we get grinding once again on searching for that perfection, adjusting the mix, trying to make the bad things go away and the good things increase. WAITING FOR THE REAL MOMENT TO COME.
On an apparently higher level, we want to feed the hungry, heal the sick, organize against the politician we don't like, see the poor helped via the program we support, see abortion kept legal or made illegal, see the unrighteous landlord lose all his assets, kill the infidels, and lots of other things that we, in various levels of haziness, consider to be the more righteous, spiritual, higher-level and selfless acts....but which are really just more ways of tinkering to make the environment more to our liking.
Why is it all so hazy? Because we're adrift, and we're locked into an prison of our desires and aversions. We think those desires and aversions are WHO WE ARE. Our supposedly higher-minded desires and aversions are just more of same. By holding them closely to our chest, we can convince ourselves we are GOOD people or RIGHTEOUS people. And that's as much a desire as anything.
So...wait. I'd want to ENHANCE my ability to satisfy my desires and repel my aversions? That's nuts! All the more so to pursue this via the spiritual practices - the divine toolset, the very techniques for getting OFF that treadmill. There is perfection in the Now. It's the nature of the phantasmagorical thing we call mind to keep scanning for peas under our mattresses, for things we need to happen and to stop happening. To bridle -and even war - against the universe as it is. But you are not a separate entity at war with "What Is". You actually ARE "What Is"! So you've been fighting on the wrong side. And realizing this constitutes a shift of attitude, characterized by the DROPPING of goal-oriented doing and a deep, deep letting. No, letting is not a doing. It's the opposite. The rock lets the ocean splash on it. The tree lets the wind blow through its branches. * (see note at bottom...but first please keep reading! ).
But when those who have not made that shift in attitude (yep, "atttitude" is as good a word as any) hack into spiritual tools in order to supercharge our hazy, deluded minds' ability to get what they want - we are just speeding up the treadmill and cementing ourselves in the delusion. Even if our desires are partially purified via yoga (it only partially mitigates the danger).
There are two solutions to the problem of your unease in the universe: 1. Let go to what is, or 2. Tinker to make the universe more to your liking. #2, when accomplished via spiritual tools, is occult. It is the choice of reigning in hell rather than serving in heaven. And it is, by the way, to karma what a double whopper with extra cheese is to calories.
As I say above, I find that my best laid plans and calculations are always degraded and corrupted by my human imperfection, and so I'm not looking to super-fuel my ability to achieve my imperfect human goals...even the lofty-seeming ones. So I'll keep my cosmic energy unharnessed to those imperfect human goals, thank you very much. I won't be mucking around with using my unconscious, my samyama, etc., to get what I want cuz I'm just not that wise. Your mileage may vary, as Yogani says. But I'm patronizing. Your mileage won't vary on this, actually.
And I'll be exquisitely hesitant even about following courses of action I might deem God's will, 'cuz while Yogani insists that meditation and other practice purifies one's intentions in perfect synchronization to one's acquisition of power, I'm afraid there's an immense body of evidence to the contrary. I am nowhere near the level of purificaction of a Swami Rama or Amrit Desai or any of the countless other masters whose human drives and desires propelled them (surely rationalizing the whole way) to harmful and selfish actions. And I lack sufficient bhakti to fly a plane into a building for a cause I deeply believe to be just.
So, really, do you want to know what I actually do?
I sit and I say "I am" a lot. And I leave aside all that other crap. And in my actions in the world, I do my hapless best. And I refrain from conniving to bring greater and greater power to bear on getting what I want. I lack sufficient ego to be sure that what I want is what's best. So I just let stuff happen. Not with a wink as I craftily refine my desires to a potent whisper. I really just let happen what happens.
Is my desire for release from the treadmill just another desire - just another attempt to make the universe more to my liking? Yep. So even that has to drop. Which is why I do practices in the same spirit as I brush my teeth.
------J&K
Note from above:
* (To digress, wheras stones and trees don't have the capacity to act - they come pre-realized - our nature is to act. So we still act. Our role in the cosmic art project in which we are all collaborating shifts, when we learn to let, to the performance of compassionate acts. Because when you turn off the noise and escape the prison, that's what we're inclined to do, instinctually, like a sparrow building a nest or a stock broker buying a yacht or a rock getting wet and salty. It's our role in the scheme of things.)
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Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 25 2007 01:03:40 AM |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2007 : 1:20:58 PM
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| For myself there is nothing that has come close to pranayama and deep meditation for my gradual ascent upon this mountain of duality. The elusive pinnacle of self-realization is always just behind the thin veil of the clouds of Maya, and I am grateful for the encouraging words of the great jnanis who point out this truth with such direct and simple words. I feel fortunate though to have meditation and pranayama techniques available. Without the cultivation of inner silence through deep meditation jnana yoga would not be possible for me to pursue, as the distractions of a scattered mind are so powerful. If you read carefully, many of the great jnanis not only pursued countless hours of meditation, they also recommend that students practice some kind of daily sitting meditation along with a practice of jnana throughout the remaining hours of the day. As yogani points out a well rounded practice of the varieties of yoga is a wise choice. As long as there is mystery behind the stones better not to leave any unturned. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2007 : 4:53:49 PM
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Jim, your posts make so much sense to me! Thank you very much!
I happened to hear this today from Lama Surya Das (*don't know anything about the guy), it is another view of karma:
quote:
Karma means that you don't get away with anything. We reap what we sow. People sometimes think of karma as destiny, but in fact the word actually translates into action and reaction. - - - Where does our karma come from? Each of us is a composite of different experiences, a whirling, changing conjuries of conflicting forces and habits.
Something happens to you. You respond with an action, a word or a thought. This action leaves an imprint in your stream of being that creates further karma, like a habit. When you become accustomed to behave in a certain way, or being treated and reacting in a certain way you become conditioned to it. This conditioning becomes your karma. From a thought grows an action, from an action grows a pattern, from a pattern grows a habit, from a habit grows a character, from our character comes our destiny. This is karma.
New karmic seeds are being planted all the time through our actions, new karma is being made all the time. When one acts with a positive motivation goodness is furthered, when one acts out of negative motivation negativity and harm is furthered. We can recondition ourselves to act with heart and with wisdom. The important thing to understand here is that you are not a victim of karma or predestination. You are your own master. There is free will as well as karmic patterning.
As you sow, so shall you reap. This is a joyous, liberating message, because every moment we are presented with the possibility of changing the future to our skilful use of the karmic laws of cause and effect. We change now, and our future changes accordingly. This is the truth, this is karma. I assure you, we are responsable. Our destiny remains in all times in our own hands. How we handle it makes all the difference.
What I have noticed by quite remarkable experience, is something that I have only seen mentioned by Deepak Chopra in one of his books, namely that the SPEED of karmic responses increases as you walk along the spiritual path! The sowing gives almost instant reaping results. So if I find myself trapped in a negative thought or action, it hits back immediately, reminding me of what I am doing. I MUST have been unaware and have left stillness, since action out of stillness never creates negativity! Therefore, I feel I do have a choice every second to change my day! A twist to a relaxed, positive, faithful and trusting letting go state gives a direct response from life, surroundings, other people, symptoms in my own body etc.
This brings on further consequences such as the lack of need to figure out whether my actions are "right or wrong" in a given moment. If I get a negative response from life, surroundings, other people, body etc - I just KNOW that what I do is not in the dance of light, no matter if my rational mind wants to "give me right" or try to convince me that my actions are defendable or my opinion is that "this is doing no harm". Negative response means QUIT WHAT YOU ARE DOING.
Jim, your insights on "helping" are great! I have seen many healers and course leaders in that trap, who have got stuck on their path! Thank you for describing it so clearly!
The expression
- Oh, no! I have made something terribly wrong!
ought to be changed to:
- Oh, no! I have made something terribly karmic! |
Edited by - emc on Feb 24 2007 4:59:29 PM |
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ajna
India
59 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2007 : 05:46:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
quote:
Originally posted by ajna
This discussion is getting interesting. As Yogani pointed out the world is both dual and non-dual simultaneously. We can only experience either of the states, not both at the same time (as told by Ramana Maharishi). When we are at the door-step of the metaphorical door separating the dual and non-dual states, we have a choice to look one way or the other, not both. But to get the ability to reach the door-step at will, practices are essential . After that there is a choice to drop practices.
Hi Ajna:
But "stillness in action" is both, and therein lies the paradox of both the world and human enlightenment.
It is time for us to cross this bridge in our understanding of the nature of yoga practices and spiritual experience, mainly so we can practice with confidence and quit being a yoga house divided. The practical (and self-paced) integration of all yoga methods is the key to getting everyone anointed -- self-anointed, that is.
The guru is in you.
Hi Yogani
May be i have to wait to realize the stillness in action state, as i have just started the practices. Fully agree with the point on crossing the bridge of understanding. Practices are absolutely essential unless one is a born Jnani (like Adhi Sankara)
Thanks |
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