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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 26 2006 : 09:38:55 AM
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quote:
Etherfish: People believe the truth is simple, so if you can make up an argument which seems to be true and is very easy to understand, while the real truth is complicated and hard to understand, people will believe the simple lie.
"With one bottle of ink we can write countless different words or draw countless different objects. Thus, there are only two things:
Static: The static, fixed, or unchanging aspect is the ink. We have not changed one molecule of the ink, but rather have only moved it around, changing the shape.
Active: The active, fluid, or changing aspect is the shape in which we might form the ink. We can write or draw this or that. We can mix and match, move here and there, or put layer upon layer. We can create beauty or ugliness and, yet, the ink is the same".
http://swamij.com/kundalini-awakening.htm#innate
"Knowledge is a single point, but the ignorant have multiplied it." ~Hadith of Muhammad
Truth is simple, yet relative to perception.
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on Nov 26 2006 09:48:08 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 26 2006 : 10:58:19 AM
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I wasn't talking about spiritual truths, which are much simpler than scientific and social issue truths. I was talking about social opinion.
Of course there is some overlap- we have evangelists trying to alarm us, and that does influence quite a few people.
But my point still holds there to some extent: To the average person, Christianity seems much simpler than yoga. Accept Christ, go to church
a couple hours a week, be good and move on to your everyday interests,
and everything will be OK for eternity.
No need for spending two sessions every day focusing your mind or trying to be devoted all week. That's a lot of effort.
we're a society that thinks we can get whatever we want easily; pop a pill instead of exercise and diet, drop a bomb instead of difficult negotiations, get angry at everyone for the way they live instead of taking positive action, etc.
Often when finding the truth, it is necessary to go through a lot of complicated mazes to find what is simple. For instance, look at sub-atomic physics today. There just is no simple way to explain it.
But I'll bet 100 years from now the understanding will be simpler. |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Nov 26 2006 : 11:15:55 AM
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Namaste Doc,
quote:
As a starting point, I find it quite interesting that you apparently value David's opinions, based on his personal experience, whatever that might actually be, and possibly thus your own similar opinions, as a higher benchmark of authority than the Absolute Truth of the Vedas, including the Upanishads, the Puranas, and the Classical Yoga Texts! Wheeew!
I will always value rationality above what someone tells me is true. I don't know if the Vedas, Upanishads, Puranas and Classical Yoga texts are true or not. I am not doubting any of them with what I said. I don't think David was, either. That was why I wrote what I did in response, using a couple of examples.
It should be clear that I don't value David's opinions because they're his. I value them, sometimes, because they're right.
quote:
If personal experience carries that much authority, then perhaps my own modest experience of nearly 43 years could be considered of some value as well.
I'm sure that your experiences in Yoga far exceed my own, and probably David's too. But I'm not sure if your experiences with reasoning do.
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I began my Yoga Studies and Sadhana in January of 1964. I wonder where you and David were with your Sadhanas in 1964?
Well I'm only 21.
quote:
Nonetheless, I didn't cite my own considerable experience as having any authority regarding the issue of 'Higher Vibration', but instead referred to the Works mentioned earlier as references which refute David's statement that there is "no general higher frequency of vibration".
You may have misinterpreted what he said. The impression I got was that he was saying if you start vibrating at a higher frequency, it doesn't necessarily make you smarter. That's what was meant by "general". That there are other parts of ourselves we must develop as well...not just the yogic vibrational level.
Maybe I misinterpreted him?
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Since the Vedas represent the Divine Scriptural Revelation in the Hindu Tradition....the Divine Word manifested in human words....they also thus represent the Divine Powers which created and sustain All as Brahman, the Unified Ultimate Reality of Existence-Consciousness-Bliss (Sat-Chit-Ananda). As such, therefore, the Teachings contained in the Scriptures must be given the highest rank of authority. It is in fact exactly because they contain the Absolute Truth of Divine Authority that they have continued to inspire and instruct countless millions of people in the course of several millenia.
You know more about this than I do. I've tried my hand at sadhana, as well as seeing if these things are true, and I came up with nothing. I know that you're supposed to stick with it, but I'm way too sensitive for the practices here. My sadhana has been derailed once again...so I guess for me I will never know if the scriptures are true. I can't believe it just because you tell me they are the absolute truth.
I'm stuck with my simple measure of truth for now: rationality.
quote:
The personal opinions of any mortal individual, regardless of the length or quality of their experience, and no matter how excellent their intellectual prowess may be, are humble and prone to error in comparison! Is this really a point of intelligent debate?
I'm not sure about this, either. You must know things about the divine which I don't. People could certainly believe in such a thing if they read a couple of book and are easily swayed into beliefs, but I don't search for beliefs. I search for truth...and sadly this truth, which you are stating here, is one that needs experience and which can't be argued about. |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Nov 26 2006 : 11:44:49 AM
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Hi All:
The "truth" of the scriptures is only real if it can be verified in human experience, because human experience is what the scriptures are recording in the first place. The scriptures were written (or orally transmitted) by human beings! They are "absolute" only when mythologized to be so, and this has both pros and cons. The best scriptures are those which can also provide practical means for cultivating the spiritual potential which their authors professed to be resident in all human beings.
Scriptures can be useful when taken on blind faith over the short term, aiding in promoting bhakti and direct spiritual experience, and thus helping dissolve blind faith. But, if taken as absolute truth on blind faith indefinitely, without ongoing spiritual growth via effective practices, scriptures can become the foundation (or excuse) for grossly aberrant conduct in human beings. Any knowledge reduced to the level of an "ideology" and taken on blind faith on an ongoing basis will lead to conflict with other ideologies also taken on blind faith. When a scripture has been reduced to an ideology, beware!
Like any knowledge, scriptures can be well-used or terribly misused.
The real test of any scripture is in whether its highest ideals can be actualized in human experience. That is where the rubber meets the road. For thousands of years many dedicated practitioners have recorded their experiences on the path of human spiritual transformation, and, in some cases, recorded practical means to cultivate the divine outpouring in everyone. We owe them a great deal. How we use the information is up to us -- hopefully for the betterment of all humankind.
Just one person's opinion. 
The guru is in you.
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Nov 26 2006 : 12:41:59 PM
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quote:
Etherfish: I wasn't talking about spiritual truths, which are much simpler than scientific and social issue truths. I was talking about social opinion.
We all have opinions based on what we perceive to be reality and it doesn't matter if it's considered a scientific or spiritual truth.
Although I've never heard of the term "social issue truth" this sounds like perceived/learned belief systems stemming from society or ones culture.
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Nov 26 2006 1:14:47 PM |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Nov 26 2006 : 4:27:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
The "truth" of the scriptures is only real if it can be verified in human experience, because human experience is what the scriptures are recording in the first place.
The real test of any scripture is in whether its highest ideals can be actualized in human experience.
I completely agree with these statements. This is exactly what I wanted to communicate in my previous post. Namely, that the Vedic Scriptures and Classical Writings have provided an initial source of spiritual inspiration and mental food for thought for countless generations of sadhakas and devotees. Additionally, they have been a dependable source of practical information and instructional guidelines for establishing and maintaining a productive Sadhana. 
My point is that the Scriptures have retained their living popularity from ancient times until now precisely because the practical, long term experience of so many Sadhakas and Devotees has validated the teachings gleaned from these sources.
Were this not true, such writings would no doubt have lost their popularity long before now, since personal demonstration of beneficial results has always been given a high agenda priority in the Eastern mindset. Traditionally, any method or philosophy which proves incapable of providing experiential results for practitioners across the board soon loses favor, and is usually quickly discarded and forgotten.  
Lastly, it should be mentioned here that the Indian use of the word 'Absolute' is often misunderstood or misinterpreted by many, especially among Westerners. The phrase 'Absolute Truth' is not meant to convey that what was received and transcribed by mortal men is totally without human error, as this is unquestionably an impossibility, but is rather intended to convey that the Scriptures are focused on that which is free of imperfection, limitation and restriction, free of dependency conditions, and are instead relative to that 'Truth' which manifests from the Ultimately Pure, Perfect and Absolute Reality.....God or Brahman!
So even in spite of our human faults and errors, these Divine Truths and Revelations have been perpetually manifested to human minds and souls through the Sacred Scriptures....inspiring and instructing all who choose to benefit from them!
Hari OM!
Doc |
Edited by - Doc on Nov 27 2006 12:28:38 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 26 2006 : 11:23:04 PM
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I'm baaaa-aack! 
Scott, yes, thanks, you have represented me well.
There is something of a culture-clash going on here. It's not just East versus West.....
Doc said:
The personal opinions of any mortal individual, regardless of the length or quality of their experience, and no matter how excellent their intellectual prowess may be, are humble and prone to error in comparison!
Is this true also of the personal opinions of the mortal individuals who wrote the scriptures in question? Or just true of the mortal individuals who are reading them?
Is this really a point of intelligent debate?
Yes. Especially if 'prone to error in comparison' means that one has to defer to them, setting one's mortal opinions aside.
I just don't seem to be thinking in the same way. I don't actually position myself either above or below the writers of these scriptures mentally. I merely use the source, with discrimmination. That's all.
Which sometimes leads me to say, hey --- either these folks missed this, or it is misinterpreted....
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Nov 26 2006 11:25:27 PM |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Nov 27 2006 : 12:16:07 AM
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Hey, David:
I don't care what anybody says, man, I really kinda like you! So I thought I'd pass along a little bit of Good Ole Boy Texas Style Homespun Wisdom for your light entertainment and further consideration.
1) "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." 
2) "You'd better check yerself before ya wreck yerself." 
3) "Shoot, maybe you just need a good check-up from the neck up, Bubba!"
Doc
P.S. Your questions have already been addressed in previous recent posts.  |
Edited by - Doc on Nov 27 2006 12:24:47 AM |
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