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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 21 2006 : 04:40:29 AM
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God Without Religion
by Sankara Saranam
Foreward by Arun Gandhi
Published by The Pranayama Institute
Sample Passage:
"Once the power of the cerebrospinal receiver is enlivened by this flow of nervous energy along the spine, the bandwidth of self expands, and the intuitive individual, no longer identifying solely with the body, eventually realizes the infinite source of the self."
- p. 138
www.godwithoutreligion.com
Open Source Yoga .... Meet Open Source Religion
And, um, I wasn't gonna bring this up tonight, but you know those spiritual leaders who are going to awaken the world to a new era of peace, connectedness, joy, abundance, and enlightened living?
[whispering] ... I'm beginning to get the sneaking suspicion that it may be .... us.
So, um [also spelled So'Ham] -- Pass it on .... 'cause ... what else are ya gonna do, y'know?
Some of you may remember the old movie line, "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!"
Well - "Praise each other, and pass the rolled up socks!"
Jai Yogani
Jai Ayam
Jai Sankara Saranam
Aum Shanti, Aum Ma Kaliyei NamahaH, Namaste,
Kirtanman
PS - I exchanged a fair amount of email with Sankara a few years ago, when the book was just a glimmer in his eye. He was trying to get past some financial hurdles, to get the book published. So, when I saw it at Borders, I grabbed it mostly to support Sankara - he's a good guy; he's not as warm fuzzy cuddly as some teachers are, but he makes up for it by being exceptionally .... right.
I'll agree with reviewer Hank Wesselman, PhD that "This is one of the most extraordinary books of our time."
And I don't see this guy as a threat to AYP - I would guess we can all help each other.
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Oct 21 2006 : 08:06:29 AM
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Thanks Kirtanman
Just wondering about his emphasis on pranayama.
Yogani says pranayama on its own is not enough, there must also be some form of meditation. What does Sankara Saranam say about this?
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Oct 21 2006 : 12:32:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
Thanks Kirtanman
Just wondering about his emphasis on pranayama.
Yogani says pranayama on its own is not enough, there must also be some form of meditation. What does Sankara Saranam say about this?
KMLAPW [Kirtanman Long-Ass Post Warning]
Hi Sparkle - please note that your question is answered in the first sentence of my response. The rest of the post is more background on Sankara and GWR for anyone who has interest.
Namaste,
Kirtanman
**
Sankara actually advocates both (Pranayama and Silent Meditation), though with a clear emphasis on Pranayamic practice.
(Yogani seems to have somewhat uniquely - maybe just "uniquely" - discovered and promoted the ultra-powerful benefits which stem from an almost exact balance between the two disciplines - pranayama and silent meditation.)
For those (both students and teachers) who understand what works - some combination of pranayama, meditation, bhakti and inquiry tend to be the pillars of the given system of practices [we don't discuss the latter all that much in AYP, but the tendency toward inquiry* is an obvious effect of the other two activities --- just read through our forum posts, for evidence of that!).
*Using the term [inquiry] somewhat loosely - though I think most of us involved with AYP would say that inquiry (i.e. Who am I? What is God? Is there a "God"? Where does the Self begin? Or End?, Etc. Etc.) both drives our practices, and AYP forum participation, to a degree --- and/or is an effect of them.
Likewise, bhakti (devotion) drives practices, and is an effect of them - and like many teachers, Sankara addresses this aspect subtly, and without ever using that word.
Sankara clearly gets this, and God Without Religion showcases that understanding in some VERY powerful ways, IMHO.
Flip through it at a bookstore, and/or review the GWR site - I believe you'll see what I mean.
Personally, I don't know that I'll adopt ANY of the practices he recommends - only because A. AYP practices serve me quite nicely, and B. for the most part, the practices cited in GWR are very "entry level".
Sankara very much presents it all in an Open Source way - i.e. the key is to turn within, and become aware of the extent of your cerebrospinal energy flow, and the amount of energy available to it - and [KEY - to AYP and GWR practices] techniques for increasing the amounts of energy available for our cerebrospinal evolution.
VERY IMPORTANT:
(And Yes, smiling is very important -- but what I mean by the smiley is that I'm being emphatic is a very good-natured way .... )
GWR is not a replacement for AYP --- NOR is it promoted as such.
GWR addresses two key points:
*The Kingdom of Heaven is within You - as that well-known AYP group leader from a couple thousand years ago, in the Middle East, said in one of his Lessons.
*When we realize this (The Kingdom of Heaven is within You), it will help us to adjust our outlook and behavior in the world around us, and therefore positively affect all of humanity (via either small ripples, or larger ones).
GWR does an excellent job of illustrating how the world became like it is today (including the negative effects of organized religion, and why the hold of religion is so powerful, for so many people), how societies cycle, and various suggestions for how we can contribute to the greater good.
Therefore, I see AYP & GWR as perfect compliments to one another - AYP as the "Owner's Manual" for our internal practices, GWR for our "external" life in society (not in any restrictive ways, in the case of either - but as powerful pointers and sets of guidelines that can be powerfully beneficial).
Cheers & Namaste,
Kirtanman
PS - Sankara mentions that he was an ascetic - I don't see any current public reference to this, but he was very open about it as recently as 2002 or so: he was a monk with SRF (Self-Realization Fellowship) - the group started by Paramahansa Yogananda. I was involved for a while with Ananda (the offshoot started by Swami Kriyananda), and can say that this likely has a lot to do with the pranayama emphasis that Sankara has, in his teachings -- but it's probably a 70/30 split, or even 60/40 -- whereas AYP is basically 50/50 -- but the differences between the two systems are not that great.
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Oct 21 2006 1:48:32 PM |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Oct 21 2006 : 2:33:00 PM
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Thanks Captain Kirt
-Alan |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2006 : 2:12:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
For those (both students and teachers) who understand what works - some combination of pranayama, meditation, bhakti and inquiry tend to be the pillars of the given system of practices [we don't discuss the latter all that much in AYP, but the tendency toward inquiry* is an obvious effect of the other two activities --- just read through our forum posts, for evidence of that!).
Originally posted by Kirtanman
*Using the term [inquiry] somewhat loosely - though I think most of us involved with AYP would say that inquiry (i.e. Who am I? What is God? Is there a "God"? Where does the Self begin? Or End?, Etc. Etc.) both drives our practices, and AYP forum participation, to a degree --- and/or is an effect of them.
Hi Sparkle and Kirtanman:
Good perspectives. Yes, in AYP we are getting around to self-inquiry as effect, and then using it to add further cause to our development. It will be the topic of an e-series book next year. The title hints at the order of development we aim for here, with inner silence (witness) coming first:
"Self-Inquiry - Dawn of the Witness and the End of Suffering"
And, interestingly, self-inquiry is a close cousin of bhakti, which is the next book after that. I know you are happy about the connection, Kirtanman. There are no walls in yoga ... only overlapping principles of human spiritual transformation...
Regarding Sankara Saranam, he has done a good job of bringing the gift of practical pranayama techniques to many, as far as he has gone. As far as I know, he stops shy of open source access to full-scope spiritual practices.
Not sure I agree with his geo-political confrontation with organized religion. Promoting such conflict is a hot button for a lot of people, but of no real consequence in the overall scheme of individual spiritual practice, which is what will cultivate human evolution ever forward. As long as we forge ahead with practices, organized religion (and every other institution) will be compelled to reinvent itself and play its role in bringing self-directed spiritual practices to the masses. It is happening already in many religious organizations. They must change to avoid being left behind. The institutions will do whatever is necessary to maintain their following. In the past, the institutions led their uninformed members (the blind leading the blind), and we know the long history of disastrous results. Times are different now. With an increasingly better educated and spiritually evolving public, the institutions will be compelled to follow the people, or lose their relevance.
Therefore, I'm for moving ahead with an internal renaissance rather than an external conflict with organized religion. That does not exclude being resolute in letting go of what is untrue in organized religion, which is the message in the Secrets of Wilder novel. In the end, it is not about religion. It is about what the people choose for themselves. The religions will follow that, because they must. They have no power except what is given them by the people. Organized religion is not the culprit. We are. The mayhem of the religions and all institutions is our mayhem, and we can turn it around by systematically opening ourselves to the divine within. Maybe Sankara comes to this logical and empowering conclusion also. Don't know -- have not read his book yet.
The guru is in you.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2006 : 02:47:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Good perspectives. Yes, in AYP we are getting around to self-inquiry as effect, and then using it to add further cause to our development. It will be the topic of an e-series book next year. The title hints at the order of development we aim for here, with inner silence (witness) coming first:
"Self-Inquiry - Dawn of the Witness and the End of Suffering"
quote:
And, interestingly, self-inquiry is a close cousin of bhakti, which is the next book after that. I know you are happy about the connection, Kirtanman.
Yes, Indeedy!
quote:
There are no walls in yoga ... only overlapping principles of human spiritual transformation... quote:
Agreed, as Dave Stringer (well-known Western kirtan artist - see www.davestringer.com for details, if interested - lots of good music, and Sanskrit / English lyrics and translations) says:
"Yoga is not about belief; it is about practice."
Yogani wrote: "There are no walls in yoga."
Another fine quote!
Spirituality and Yoga are much like Love in that regard, I would say -- Walls, "real or imagined" literally causes the walled quality to be something different ...... meaning: walled yoga is not yoga; walled spirituality is not spirituality, and walled love is not love.
quote:
Regarding Sankara Saranam, he has done a good job of bringing the gift of practical pranayama techniques to many, as far as he has gone. As far as I know, he stops shy of open source access to full-scope spiritual practices.
I believe this is true - though based on my somewhat-surface level knowledge of him and his work, I believe he is essentially trying to be a responsible teacher (I mean, imagine ---- if you put out information on, say, advanced aspects and details surround Kechari Mudra -- well --- you can envision what could happen --- I'm sure!!).
The lessons he does offer, he offers for a suggested donation - which is an accurate representation (a few years ago, I explained that I could not afford to donate, and he gave me the download codes for free).
(Anything is his lessons is more than covered by AYP - either via techniques, or effects - for anyone who may not know.)
And I, for One .... .. resonate with the Open Source approach, hence my hanging out in the happily expanding corner of the Cyberashrama.
quote:
Not sure I agree with his geo-political confrontation with organized religion.
I had the same response, initially. A bit too much of the seeming eye-poking for my taste -- however:
A. Either he, or someone involved in editing God Without Religion, has softened that tone quite a bit (from what used to be on his site)
&
B. Truth is not always comfortable. In GWR, Sankara doesn't come across as categorically dismissing religion[s] - but speaking out strongly against the millions of deaths, and untold (and unspeakable) amounts of torture, misery, mayhem, shattered lives and agony - which has resulted for thousands of years, all over the world -- and is occuring right this very second - as we write / read these words -- which have all happened due to the ultra ultra deep-seated bigotry, prejudice and sense of separation which religions all over the world (including the religions which resonate with the Yoga crowd - the Sanatana Dharma - Hinduism - and Buddhism).
Think of the horrors which have been produced by the caste system alone, in India -- to members of "lower castes", and to women - and Hinduism is usually thought of as one of the "good" religions, and more enlightened than Christianity, or Islam.
I have a hard time disagreeing with those points - especially when Sankara offers some pragmatic tools for getting past those things - primarily:
A. Yoga practices, which will help to erase the illusions of separateness by evolving our neurophysiology.
&
B. Expanding our social behavior outside of our own groups - especially religious groups (he gives the example of a Jewish person taking the time they use to volunteer at the local Jewish Community Center - and volunteering at an Islamic center, instead).
quote:
Promoting such conflict is a hot button for a lot of people, but of no real consequence in the overall scheme of individual spiritual practice, which is what will cultivate human evolution ever forward.
Ultimately true - though I would point out that:
A. Speaking the truth, strongly, does not inherently promote conflict. Many people's egos might react as though this is the case -- but many (example: myself) -- many may be "awakened" (imagine cold water being tossed on one's face) by the message - enough to share it with others, and/or take other beneficial actions.
B. While what you say is true, the combined message of:
1.God is found through evolving our bodies / minds / spirits (as AYP of course teaches as well).
2. In a conflict-ridden world, social action oriented toward demonstrating the truth that separation is illusion, and that age-old bigotries which are both deadly and spiritually-retarding
.... is, in my opinion, a good message -- and one that I'm grateful is being shared.
And, as I'm sure you (Yogani) and many of us understand: there are a lot of people who may not have inherent interest in a site, or books from a group, tied to "Advanced Yoga Practices" -- but seeing the words "God Without Religion" in a bookstore _might_ get their attention.
quote:
With an increasingly better educated and spiritually evolving public, the institutions will be compelled to follow the people, or lose their relevance.
Agreed - though I can see [and don't know if I'm correct] that motivating enlightened social action could accelerate this process.
Just as most of us don't live in caves and practice pranayama or hatha full time --- and find that the "dual-pronged" approach of yogic practices combined with life in the "world" facilitates our spiritual evolution mostly rapidly ------ that activities and attitudes such as Sankara recommends, can do the same thing (or at least facilitate it in part) on social levels.
quote:
Therefore, I'm for moving ahead with an internal renaissance rather than an external conflict with organized religion.
I inherently agree with that statement.
I would just say again that helping people to understand where God may truly be found, and that cultural beliefs surrounding God may rightfully be questioned, and that any promotion of beliefs surrounding perceived separateness - especially if those beliefs might foster violence or dishonor to fellow humans -- may also rightfully be questioned ....
.... is not inherently creating conflict.
It can be [and for me, is] a way that love moves, from the apparent position of this body-mind.
I'm not "all evangelical" with it, by any stretch -- just feeling that GWR contains useful information - and recommending it to people on that basis.
quote:
That does not exclude being resolute in letting go of what is untrue in organized religion, which is the message in the Secrets of Wilder novel. In the end, it is not about religion. It is about what the people choose for themselves. The religions will follow that, because they must. They have no power except what is given them by the people.
Agreed.
[quote]Organized religion is not the culprit. We are.
Has anyone ever mentioned that you can be kinda wise at times?
[quote]The mayhem of the religions and all institutions is our mayhem, and we can turn it around by systematically opening ourselves to the divine within. Maybe Sankara comes to this logical and empowering conclusion also.
I would say he does -- though the points you raise are very valid, and useful to consider (thanks!)
He's essentially say exactly that --- the only difference between his approach and yours, is that he recommends actively sharing this message -- in ways that of course incorporate inherent respect.
[quote]Don't know -- have not read his book yet.
The guru is in you.
Again, I found it quite good --- whether or not it "resonates" for anyone, can be gleaned (I would think) by a relatively quick "flip-through" in the bookstore.
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2006 : 11:42:10 AM
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So.
I had a look at his website (not his book) and I wasn't as impressed as other people here. He is pointing a hard finger at "organized religions" for being divisive, but he's quite divisive in his own way.
The first of the 'contentious questions' under the link on his home-page:
quote:
Q. You say in your book that fetuses have no social responsibility and so can't be afforded legal rights. Why do you emphasize this point?
A. Since a fetus has no responsibility to its mother, society, or itself, it can't be convicted of a criminal offense, and consequently can't be defended. And though abortion opponents claim that by defending the rights of fetuses they are saving unborn lives, they are in fact attempting to disempower women by overriding their rights to control their bodies.
The first sentance in his answer is an absurd non-sequitur, and the second is a highly provocative and controversial political stance right up there comin' at you fast and in your face and expressed in a divisive way and in something of a 'cheap shot' against those who disagree. This from someone who's all talk about dialog and listening.
It so happens I'm personally pro-choice in my politics, but I hate to see such poor-quality, divisive writing like that in a place like that. It simply isn't fair to pro-life people; it defines an in-group (pro-choice people) and creates an out-group who aren't given their due (pro-lifers who stand so wrongly accused of "attempting to disempower women").
Well I suppose that just says that if someone is teaching something hard, it doesn't meant that they have learned it yet. Indeed, is it not a running theme that we most strongly oppose in others (persons or things) what we most need to learn ourselves?
I see the intensity of Shankara's anti-religion stance as part of the same developmental issue. One of the central mechanisms of fundamentalism is an inclination towards making certain things excessively good ("of God"), and/or certain other things excessively bad ("the Devil"). There is an unfounded hope in how great things will be when we finally "get rid of the devil". And "the Devil" is always in "the Other". Organized religion is Shankara's devil right now -- he has the touch of an anti-religion fundamentalist about him. To put it another way, he's "got religion" about how bad religions are. He's on an Inquisition against the Inquisition.
Regarding his teaching that people should turn their backs on organized religion: well, the only people who will listen to that is people who are already starting to turn their backs on organized religion. As such, his writing may be part of a general and on-going turning away from organized religion. But it certainly won't be a cause of it.
BTW, regarding how the future goes, I wouldn't be surprised actually if there are various sudden movements away from organized religion in the decades ahead. Particularly if there are devastating wars for which organized religion will be identified as a major cause.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Oct 26 2006 3:27:34 PM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2006 : 1:01:00 PM
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Hi Kirtanman:
David illustrates the point more clearly and forcefully than I did. As soon as we begin to use a non-sectarian teaching on yoga practices as a soapbox to express our political views, something important is lost. Walls go up right away. It becomes sectarian -- the very thing we may be railing against.
It is not that social causes are not important, or that wrongs should not be righted in the world. It is a matter of what level we choose to act from. Will it be from the level of ideology, or from the level of inner silence?
Inner silence has no ideology -- it just is, and all that is good springs naturally from that infinitely blissful foundation within us. Inner silence is, by its nature, infinite power for positive transformation. On the other hand, promoting ideology leads to conflict, endless debate, and worse. The only salvation to be found in ideology will be if it can be transcended with real spiritual practices. Without that, it is only a distraction to spiritual progress -- part of the ubiquitous and neverending scenery of life. In AYP we'd like to favor practices over all of that.
This is why political and social action discussions are not allowed in the AYP forums. They quickly lead to endless ideological debates and a kind of spiritual oblivion.
It is my understanding that Sankara Saranam comes from an intellectual middle eastern heritage, with a background in debate. He has obvious scruples with how political power flows in the world. That's fine. We all have our scruples. But what has it got to do with yoga?
It is certainly not the approach that Sankara's preceptor took. Paramahansa Yogananda spent his 30+ year career reconciling the eastern and western religions in totally positive ways, using yoga as a bridge. Thanks largely to him, we have the application of the principles and practices of hatha and kriya yoga expanding in both the east and west today. I doubt we would have progressed to this stage if Yogananda had spent his time focusing on the miserable history of the religions. He went beyond all that in everything he did, straight to the source, our divine inner being. That is an example we can all be inspired by.
The negative is so obvious, and no lasting solution will ever be found within its inherent structure. A new element is needed. That "fifth dimension" mentioned in AYP lesson 36 -- tapping into our inner silence, pure bliss consciousness. The way to solve the puzzle is to go beyond it.
If Sankara's argument is for doing that, I am all for it -- and the more directly to it the better.
The guru is in you.
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2006 : 2:15:50 PM
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I agree, the politics on his site put a question mark in my head. I would also have to read his book to get a better picture. Though it is true that as we become enlightened we will make forums to address the problems which will most certainly be ours to address. But thanks Kirtanman for sharing this and for your always refreshing energy.
In Silence, Alan |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2006 : 4:59:58 PM
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Hello & Namaste David, Yogani & Alan,
As I may have indicated (specifically in this thread), I am always more than willing to revise opinions, based on new information or different perspectives.
I agree - strongly - with all three of you.
Had I seen that abortion quote (I haven't), I would have reacted almost identically to the way you did, David -- with an almost identical "dissection" concerning each sentence.
It's interesting (to me, anyway ....) -- I had literally forgotten about God Without Religion's impending publication (Sankara was talking about it as far back as 2002, if I recall correctly) -- and then saw it in Border's - bought it - read it - posted.
Per my original post in this thread, I was positively impressed with the amount of content which could cause people (granted, and per repeated points from all three of you ---- probably only the most open-minded people) to say, "Hmmm - wow - never looked at it that way!"
However (and it's a major, and potentially deal-breaking "however" -- including for me) - the amount of negativity and debate-orientation is unfortunate -- because there is some good and useful insight and material in GWR.
There are only a few truly major things I've learned via my spiritual / yogic path -- and one of them is: it's a LOT less about rational information processing (example: debate among parties who agree to debate, in hope of learning together) than many think it is -- because ultimately, egoic opinions have nothing to do with reality.
Example: the truth about the ramifications of abortion may be completely outside and/or beyond the scope of the current religious, medical and political debates surrounding the topic -- "minding" it to death has no bearing on the Truth in this case -- and can end up becoming both divisive and distracting.
Great Movie Line: Samurai dude to Tom Cruise, whose mind is racing as he tries to spar with a Samurai partner in Last Samurai --- "Too Many Mind!"
Seems that our friend Sankara may be restricting his audience (and possibly much else) due to remaining a victim of "too many mind!"
Unfortunate, per all the positives I've listed about GWR - and positives I've seem in him (seemingly very genuine about his pranayama ministry, willingness to provide lessons without compensation, etc.).
So - okay gang - I'm genuinely back in the fold.
I sincerely agree with all three of you -- and genuinely feel the same way.
Very helpful process for me -- thanks to each and all of you - especially David, Yogani and Alan, per this message -- for being good teachers, and good friends.
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2006 : 5:08:15 PM
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As we say in the hood
"It's all good" |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2006 : 5:17:01 PM
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Hi Kirtanman:
It is good that you brought the book up here. Some very useful lessons for all of us. Many thanks. It is good to look at everything in the spiritual arena, as long as we don't end up going on an extended detour from ourselves. Not likely with inner silence coming up.
As for where the "AYP fold" is, when you find it, let me know. Hopefully there is none.
Keep on dancing in the light!
The guru is in you.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2006 : 5:48:17 PM
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Hi Kirtanman,
OK, let's agree to agree then.
I do want to give reason its due though. To give reason its due, high-quality reason and debate have their place too, though reason and debate are sometimes out of place, even if high-quality. Unfortunately, Sankara's writing about abortion there isn't even high-quality reason and debate; it's sectarian polemics; it's written to convince one's own sect/tribe/group of how bad the other sect is.
And there you have the central irony: Sankara, ostensibly out to convince us to rid ourselves of our sectarian tendencies, cannot but push an exhibition of his own sectarian tendencies to the forefront on his website.
This is not to say his work isn't of value though. If you got something good out of it, I am sure there are good reasons.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Oct 26 2006 5:54:15 PM |
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2006 : 9:52:49 PM
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Hi Kirtanman,
quote:
As for where the "AYP fold" is, when you find it, let me know. Hopefully there is none.
quote:
This is not to say his work isn't of value though. If you got something good out of it, I am sure there are good reasons.
This is what makes me feel 'free' and 'comfortable' here. There are no boxes, but sometimes we can stand in one till we realise there is an exit too, there is no berating 'others' to feel good about ourselves, but our lips aren't sealed on that either, we don't have to buy into 'x' formula and then spend the rest of the time and energy convincing ourselves and others that this is the only right and narrow lane you should take to all the goodness in life and after, but a formula, a path is there if you want to follow it. Sit where you want, walk, run, take a cab. It's your time, your body, your mind. You begin to know by and by how far and how fast you can or want to go.
Meanwhile it is also fine to run across the field and walk along with other travellers on another road, if that's what is beckoning you. And if that is wearying, there is always another road you know of, and other travellers who won't ask, "So, why did you desert us, then?"
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2006 : 10:07:21 PM
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| i learned that it's OK to kill animals, mentally ill and senile people, and children under 18, because anyone who has no social responsibility can't be defended. What??? Sounds like logic I use in dreams! (I'm pro choice but not for this reason!) 90% of murderers drank milk as a kid, therefore milk causes murders. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2006 : 09:59:12 AM
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Yes Ether, if you were teaching a philosophy class, you could almost use his first sentance as a good example to illustrate the very meaning of the term "non-sequitur".
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2006 : 04:19:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by sadhak
Hi Kirtanman,
quote:
As for where the "AYP fold" is, when you find it, let me know. Hopefully there is none.
quote:
This is not to say his work isn't of value though. If you got something good out of it, I am sure there are good reasons.
This is what makes me feel 'free' and 'comfortable' here. There are no boxes, but sometimes we can stand in one till we realise there is an exit too, there is no berating 'others' to feel good about ourselves, but our lips aren't sealed on that either, we don't have to buy into 'x' formula and then spend the rest of the time and energy convincing ourselves and others that this is the only right and narrow lane you should take to all the goodness in life and after, but a formula, a path is there if you want to follow it. Sit where you want, walk, run, take a cab. It's your time, your body, your mind. You begin to know by and by how far and how fast you can or want to go.
Meanwhile it is also fine to run across the field and walk along with other travellers on another road, if that's what is beckoning you. And if that is wearying, there is always another road you know of, and other travellers who won't ask, "So, why did you desert us, then?"
Nicely put -- and agreed.
When I saw Yogani's reply regarding fold - my first thought was:
"Note to Self: Kirtan sounds much better with both feet on the outside of the mouth ....."
My second was:
While it was kind of a reflexive phrase --- what I truly meant to convey was:
I'm not back in the "fold" of any doctrine or dogma --- because that's the antithesis of what AYP is about --- the "fold" I'm back in is the glorious shared agreement we all have to non-judgementally support each other's yogic practice and evolution - without becoming distracted by extraneous crusades or debates.
I certainly wasn't rejoining the fold of "Yogani / David / Balance" - I have no idea when those stars may line up in agreement in quite that same way again --- and I'm quite certain they don't, either!
It's more that all three of them were clear on the points that:
*Tilting at the "windmill" of organized religion makes no sense (in the context of being supportive to AYP objectives) - and an AYP sadhaka likely has much more useful places (in terms of personal evolution, and of benefiting the world) than to be so externally / conceptually focused.
*Creating conflict, even unintentionally, is probably not useful (referring to the apparent effects / interpretations of Shankara's work, for many readers.)
*As much as I do maintain genuine respect for Shankara Sharanam, and did still find some (albeit decreasing) value in his book, it's like, "Dude, two words: proof read!"
It's like he created a new koan all by himself:
How much credibility can be lost in a single sentence?
And yes, I know that judging the writing and articulation of others is extraneous to AYP as well -- my statement above is made primarily due to the fact that Shankara set up what seems to be an intentionally logical framework --- and then makes a controversial statement that is very challenging to understand, or agree with -- which potentially pulls the underpinnings out from under any arguments [in the sense of literal logic, not in the sense of emotional conflict] Sankara cares to make.
It's kind of like a new mathematician, who says, "Check out these cool new formulas -- oh, and by the way --- 2+2 = 3".
If the mathematician was Liebniz, some might say, "How'd you get there?" --- but even he, early in his career, would likely have been booed off the figurative stage.
More on this later (way late / early here) --- but as a "teaser" -- I've decided I'm about "God With Religion" ----- not God Without Religion --- and not (as we see all too often, all around us) - Religion Without God.
God being synonymous with Reality - with Satchidananda - Reality, Consciousness, Bliss.
There are many beautiful, loving books and teachers we can all learn from, operating within the context of their religion -- and much in the way of very beautiful interfaith dialog - and shared mysticism ("direct paths" of each religion --- Yoga / Tantra within the Sanatana Dharma - aka Hinduism - Mystical Christianity / Gnosticism with Christianity, Sufism within Islam, the Kabbalah within Judaism, the Western Mystery Traditions - Celtic, Egyptian, Greek, Etc. esoteric schools, mystical Eastern Orthodox groups, Quantum Physics within the physical / energetic sciences .... and so on.
Life is the problem (mathematically speaking - not "difficulty").
God* is the equation.
*Unity / Universal Intelligence / Brahman / Reality
It's not a concept thing ----- it's the fact that when you've found the equation - experientially - that ties it all together --- you've found God.
Hm.
If life is the problem --- and God is the equation -- what's the answer?
Too easy ........
AYAM!
Which is nothing more nor less than the Sanskrit word meaning .....
THIS
Jayayam,
Kirtanman
PS - Hridy'ayam-Iti Tasmadd'Hridayam
(This Self is in the heart).
This .... ALL of this .... this .... Self is in .... is in ... the heart.
When we live this reality for even the briefest moment, we have traveled countless figurative eons and light years toward Home.
Which is ever where it always is ----- right here.
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2006 : 10:07:15 AM
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Hi Kirtanman:
I am certainly willing to give Sankara the benefit of the doubt, and do plan to read his book.
If he has repaired his prior grumpy "non-sequitur" ways enough to make a credible case in his book for deconstructing dogma, then it can be worthwhile. Maybe he is the Don Quixote of the yoga world, jousting with all those institutional windmills, and he could succeed in some measure. He is marketing his cause very hard.
Whether or not he offers a viable "reconstruction" in the form of full-scope self-directed spiritual practices is another matter. In that sense, he may end up being a help to AYP, cutting folks loose from dogma with his sword so they can become free to seek their divine inner destiny. Just what you said in your first posts here. So we have come full circle. 
There is a new breed of spiritual innovators rising out of the stodginess of the old traditions. It is happening all over and is a fascinating thing to watch. It bodes well for the future. We are all on the same team.
The guru is in you.
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2006 : 12:55:02 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by KirtanmanWhen I saw Yogani's reply regarding fold - my first thought was:
"Note to Self: Kirtan sounds much better with both feet on the outside of the mouth ....."
Better to have both feet inside the mouth than not find your feet at all, is what I think to myself at times when I get the feeling of talking to myself and the silence without (not within). |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2006 : 02:58:40 AM
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Yogani said: If he has repaired his prior grumpy "non-sequitur" ways enough to make a credible case in his book for deconstructing dogma, then it can be worthwhile. Maybe he is the Don Quixote of the yoga world, jousting with all those institutional windmills, and he could succeed in some measure. He is marketing his cause very hard.
I'm not so hopeful, Yogani. I suppose it is still possible that the book is sectarianism-free, but I took a look at what he calls his 'forum' ( on which only he can post, in the form of his answers to questions other people have submitted). You may want to take a look at the posts "What are the flaws in Buddhist practice", and "Why are Buddhists afraid of power", written late last year. I was very unimpressed. I have no intention of buying the book after reading these, and I'm not a Buddhist. They are, in short, highly sectarian, and he follows the common sectarian pattern of comparing the presumed best of his tradition/sect (pranayama-based yoga) with the worst of the OTHER tradition (buddhism) to make his sweeping statements:
Sankara Saranam said:
Buddhism, like everything else, underwent changes and distortions during the Dark Ages. Here and there you may find an individual or group that is actually engaged in asceticism and pranayama. They are following the model of the Buddha's life. But for the most part Buddhism is the Catholicism of the East, complete with its cult of saints (Buddhas and so-called Bodhisattvas), mythologizing of the Buddha’s birth and life, misogyny, and forgeries.
So according to him, here and there, there are some Buddhists who are following the original Buddha way, practicing ascetisism and pranayama, just like Sankara Saranam. But for the rest, well, you read it!
You can take the man out of the sect, but you can't take the sectarianism out of the man. Only the man can do that himself when he sees the need to. So I don't have much hope in his ability to be effective in helping to reduce the problem of sectarianism.
One of the marks of high-quality debate (as opposed to sectarian polemics) is actually giving maximal available credit to the view one disagrees with. That is, one should deal with the opposing view, in its finest form. And from there, try to argue where its weaknesses are and how it can be improved.
If there will be a powerful book to reduce sectarianism, you may be sure a lot of its power will be due to the author's manifest good example in that area. If someone is in the position to be that author, I don't think it is Sankara Saranam right now.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Oct 29 2006 12:52:26 PM |
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Joshua
9 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2007 : 01:26:32 AM
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I have read God Without Religion several times and have met SS in person during one of his GWR retreats. The guy is very funny, but he is no joke. He is incredibly controversial, but as far as promoting narrow viewpoints (being divisive) that would seem kind of contradictory to his life's work.
His comments on abortion, buddhism, SRF, government, etc. are not, as far as I can tell, examples of non sequitars if one has actually read the book and realize they are presented as following logically from the principles of the expansive sense of self.
For example, his perspective on degenerative buddhist practices are just that, comments on degenerative practices. Although buddhism has merits insofar as it employs asceticism and pranayama it tinges these practices with obvious add ons from dark age thinking that we would be best to reject it outright and simply employ pranayama directly. What possible advantage comes from a practice that by definition is narrow because it confines the sense of self to a particular worldview?
In many ways he is like Sri Yuktesvar whose neighbors would close their shutters and doors when he walked down the street in order to avoid confronting his barbs.
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2007 : 11:13:53 AM
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Hi Joshua, and welcome!
And isn't it interesting that we probably never would have heard of the grumpy Sri Yukteswar had it not been for the dedicated bridge-building and constant outpouring divine love of his disciple, Paramahansa Yogananda? And also interesting that Sankara Saranam, man of many scruples, considers Yogananda to be his guru.
It just goes to show that we each will carry our own torch, regardless of who may have inspired us. Some will use their torch as a light, while others may go about setting fires. It all works out in the end.
The guru is in you.
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IcedEarth
73 Posts |
Posted - Nov 15 2007 : 10:25:25 PM
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God Without Religion was the first book on spirituality I ever read. I was quite fortunate when I found it because it was exactly what I was looking for at the time. I had been getting back into christianity, but there were some unanswered questions about it in the back of my mind, and I was looking for some philosophy or ideal that would not make me feel guilty for turning my back on it (i.e. ideas of heaven & hell, not going to church, etc.)
The book introduced me to the world of yoga, and the possibility of finding God outside of the church. This made me very happy. The book presents the theory of self, based on the ancient Indian model of how our thoughts and actions expand or narrow our sense of self. Tying it together with yoga practices, critical thinking, and physiology made it a real winner. I reread the book and also recently purchased the audiobook. There is so much food for thought in this book that is helpful for expanding your sense of self, much of it being more effective than what modern psychology has to offer.
I must admit that the ideas in the book caused me to feel bitter towards religion for a couple of years, but part of it was because I hadn't completely understood what it presented. He actually tells the reader to respect other people and their religions and suggests bringing up difficult conversations in terms of religious stories the from the person's religion. Personally, I think it is important that people know the divisive histories of religions and those that continue into our day. The worst thing that we can do is to continue living as we have. |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Apr 22 2008 : 02:17:36 AM
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Contrary to what a lot of people here have said regarding Sankara Saranam's ideas, i just want to point out that they come from people who have not read his book. If they had read the book they wouldn't have said that Sankara wants to abolish religions. On the contrary, his message is rising above religious intolerance - not by doing away with it but by expanding the sense of self to eliminate the divisive tendencies within religions.
Also, his stance on abortion is taken out of context within the general theme of his message. As it stands, the quote given above from his website is perfectly logical.
As for Buddhism, you should read his lengthy article on it at his website pranayama.org. It's no good picking little snippets of his words here and there and condemning him without placing them in their proper context of his overall message.
So before people judge, they need to read the book. |
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nandhi
USA
362 Posts |
Posted - Apr 30 2008 : 11:16:47 PM
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aum
divine kirtanman / sankara saranam and all who contributed on this page- this is noble thought of the newer age of higher consciousness that awakens us to eternal wisdom of oneness!
a cat's god must be cat and the uniqueness of perceiving source as in oneness is being awake!
awake in the inner light of oneness, we are set free from the prison of collective intellectual ego to recognize the lord of life in all as source and source forms.
gratitude!
aum |
Edited by - nandhi on Apr 30 2008 11:35:33 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 07 2008 : 05:10:36 AM
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I found this post after posting a question about Sankara's description of correct meditative practise.
I began reading his book, discovered yoga and realised that an instruction book on Pranayama was needed.......and so I bought the Yogani books on that and deep meditation, so there is method in all of this.
One thing I would say is that GWR makes a point of incouraging group discussions with all religious/spiritual practises and any none inclusive individuals in order to understand different points of view. His own forum obviously only allows his viewpoint and I think this is probably because he wants to make that clear. In a sense he is saying 'go out and form your own groups as I am no leader' (thats my perspective anyway).
Coming from an atheist back gound maybe I do not read the book as a snipe at religion (but maybe that is because my background is atheist). Seems to me that he clearly feels that religion has been twisted either by those that seek individual goals, or by those who just misinterpreted the message. He seeks to promote inter discussions between groups and expanding openess and expansive self.
However there is a bit of me that cant help but be slightly unconvinced that he is trying too hard to convince that he is not self interested.
This is the difference when I read Yogani, it's more like a coaching session, the encouragement is to discover your own self belief while simply following a method.
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God Without Religion
