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Yogaman
USA
295 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2015 : 1:07:00 PM
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I've been going through some periods of doubt and frustration about meditation and yoga lately.
To sum up my current situation: I've been practicing AYP diligently for over two years now, with deep meditation, spinal breathing, some asanas and recently I've included both yoni mudra khumbaka and samyama. I've had some minor and persistent sensations at the brow, along the spine and at the root. They are all mildly pleasant but mostly a curiosity than blissful or ecstatic in any sense.
At any rate, I've lately been a bit disillusioned with my practices. This has happened before as well. But this time I'd like to reach out for some advice. It seems that many here are experiencing much more than I, and there are only a handful of posts with the search "undersensitive". Perhaps the forums attract those with more sensitivity to the practices. There seem to be far more oversensitive people looking for help than those undersensitive.
I'd appreciate any advice for not only the undersensitive like me, but also how others deal with these periods of doubt and lack of motivation. I'm a left-brain type, so I look for direct experience over faith — in fact, the plain, open discussion of techniques and results and talk of direct experience was what initially attracted me to AYP (and continues to do so).
I feel quite in the minority here, and at times the time and effort I put into my yoga practice seems like I'm trying to fill up a bucket with a hole in the bottom.
To be fair, I've no doubt experienced some improvements in my daily life over the past two years, but I've made some sweeping changes along with the meditation practices to live a more healthy life, both mentally and physically. It's tough to disentangle these and say which might have been the cause of the changes.
I know I am going through Yet Another Dark Night of the Soul, but would appreciate any insight others might have out there for those of us struggling with a meager trickle of experience and the resulting disillusionment. I'm not giving up my practice, but I do wish I had more enthusiasm for it than I've had the past few weeks. |
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technoyogi
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2015 : 1:34:03 PM
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I am new to AYP myself but I guess I would ask if you feel you have "pushed the edge" on your self pacing?
Maybe it could be time for trying some of "karma sandblaster" techniques to see if they push things a bit. Again, with self pacing the moment any symptoms might come up. But since you describe yourself as undersensitive, maybe this would not even happen.
I recall reading that Spinal breathing bastrika is one of these sandblaster techniques:
http://www.aypsite.org/171.html
ALso, maybe doing kumbakha if you have not been already.
Again, total APY newbie here so my ideas here may be off the mark, I just sympathize with you and wish I could help. Looking forward to what others have to say.
Wishing you the best in the meantime Yogaman! Often these dark nights are the blockages that mean the light is right around the corner! |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2015 : 1:39:46 PM
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Hello Yogaman
I think you're doing really well. Been reading your journal too and I would say your progress is very visible.
If anything, I would recommend favouring the heart over the analytical approach. What are the things you love in your life? Your ishta? Any artistic inclinations - music, colour? nature? whatever turns you on - favour the feelings of love. Mindfulness is good in that it helps us not to repress unpleasant emotions, but I think love trumps mindfulness.
I can tell there is a clear, direct link between love/longing for my ishta and my kundalini. I think this is what makes sensitive meditators sensitive. I actually have to turn down that longing, or my K will be raging and keeping me awake all night (thankfully I have become more stable lately - this has been my challenge and I am making progress).
Your bhakti is driving you to look out for that kundalini experience. Can you make it loving bhakti? As in disinterested, pure love, the love that says 'I will love you even if you give me nothing, ever. Even if I don't exist for you, I will love you because I have no choice but to love you.' Something like that, these are of course my words, you have to find your own and the chords that resonate in your heart.
I hope this makes sense. Matters of the heart are not easy to put in words. Spirituality is nothing if not a matter of the heart. it's a passion.
I hope you'll find what you are looking for |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Mar 30 2015 1:49:36 PM |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2015 : 2:06:43 PM
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quote: Originally posted by Yogaman
To be fair, I've no doubt experienced some improvements in my daily life over the past two years, but I've made some sweeping changes along with the meditation practices to live a more healthy life, both mentally and physically. It's tough to disentangle these and say which might have been the cause of the changes.
Hi Yogaman:
You are describing the real fruit of yoga here. Your practices are contributing to the positive changes you are making and sustaining in your life. More awareness leads to healthier choices. It is abiding inner silence (witness) that makes all of this possible.
The energy experiences that are trumpeted so much (suggested to be regarded as "scenery" in the AYP lessons) are simply signs of purification and opening along the way. I understand that many look to energy experiences for motivation for continuing practice, but they are not necessarily indicative of deep underlying spiritual progress. So best not to get too carried away with them, or lusting for them.
There are going to be temporary plateaus in our experience along the way, and it is best to keep an eye on the long term when considering our daily practice. This too shall pass...
Advanced practitioners don't have so much energetic drama going on -- they are quietly flowing in divine love, engaged in service, often so mundane as to be barely noticed.
Energy experiences are not required prerequisites for the spiritual progress we find in daily living. Those who are not having them and are finding improving quality in daily life are on track. Ecstatic conductivity and radiance will come along in their own time without so much fanfare. In the end, it is all happening in stillness.
If you were not finding improvements in your daily activity, then we might be looking at an under-sensitivity with practices, deep meditation especially (see Lesson 366). The presence or absence of energy experiences has little to do with it.
So take heart, keep practicing, and enjoy life. Good things are happening.
The guru is in you.
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technoyogi
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2015 : 5:35:42 PM
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That was a very instructive lesson (Lesson 366 in particular), thank you Yogani :-)
In it you mentioned the delayed effects that are possible, and I have heard you reference them in other lessons as being part of a cumulative effect.
I don't know if you will see this, and I apologize if this diverts a bit of the discussion, yet I have really been wondering about this for the last month or so, it is probably my single biggest question with AYP right now.
My question is just how delayed these effects can be? ANd is stopping at the first sign of discomfort enough to "head them off at the pass"?
My sense has been that I should back off at the first sign of discomfort, yet thus far I have not really had any. No headaches, wild mood swings, only once did I get a slight pain, etc.
Yet, I also know I have pushed ahead rather quickly on some kechari explorations, reaching early stage four mainly due to curiousity and a naturally long tongue.
So I still try to self regulate and resist the urge to do a full SBP with Kechari stage 3 or 4. I might do 30 seconds though here and there to test the waters.
Yet this idea of delayed effects makes me wonder. In most other aspects of life my persistent, curious nature has helped me, just would like to make sure it does not cause a hindrance here. Maybe even these seemingly innocent forays to find the secret spot, etc., will add up and I will wake up with too much energy symptoms?
If you could clarify a bit how self pacing works in light of this delayed effect aspect, or simply point to the lesson which covers that, I will gladly follow the advice given. |
Edited by - technoyogi on Mar 30 2015 5:48:00 PM |
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jusmail
India
491 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2015 : 8:37:02 PM
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Yogaman, you have good company in me. I too am undersensitive. Yet reading about great spiritual leaders and advanced AYP followers, I am sure we too will encounter some scenery later on. March on. As TY suggested experimenting with spinal bastrika or chin pump wouldn't hurt. Or you could try other milder practices like basti, fasting, or amaroli. |
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Yogaman
USA
295 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2015 : 11:17:06 PM
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Thanks for the comments and suggestions. To be a bit more clear, I'm not specifically looking for energetic experiences (but will not deny they do intrigue me). I guess I've just been in a lull of not really feeling much in the way of positive effects in my daily life.
I do deal with some depression from time to time, and it's been creeping around the gates lately. Those periods tend to give one a bleak outlook to say the least.
I actually had quite deep and still evening sit tonight. I may dig back into the lessons and read up on some other technique additions, but I think for the rest of the week I'm actually going to pull back a bit and pare down my practice to the core of SBP and DM. Perhaps I've been piling on expectations along with the added techniques.
I also recently started experimenting with the first mantra enhancement. Perhaps just a coincidence but worth mentioning.
Thanks again. |
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technoyogi
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2015 : 11:46:36 PM
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May I ask how your diet is and what kind of exercise you get weekly Yogaman?
Both of my parents were on medications for depression and my dad was institutionalized 3 times. All my siblings deal with depression, and one of my half brothers took his own life. So it seems to run in my family and I too have had to deal with it.
There are many factors, yet my primary defense has always been diet and exercise. This may be old news to you, so forgive me if so. I just remember when I started getting that under control the amazing shift it had in my life.
Your serotonin and dopamine levels must play a huge role in yoga I would think, and this overall feeling of positive effects. And each can be controlled to some extent through diet. It is an older book now, but Peak Performance Living was I believe the name of the book I first read that helped me.
Then there is the idea of making sure you get at least 20 minutes of aerobic exercise at least 4 times per week. My current way to do that is through taking walks or jumping on a $35 mini trampoline. I also have some heavy duty exercise bands that can mimick some of the heaviest weights possible. So even if I do not leave my house for a week due to a heavy workload, I still get in exercise with extremely minimal equipment.
Plus, the weather factor. I live in Vancouver where the sun may barely shine for a full week. So I take liquid vitamin D3 in high doses, and have full spectrum lights in my office. First year in Vancouver 3 years ago without that was awful. Now, not so bad. Dont know if where you live is cold or worse, grey, but that is a huge factor that is often overlooked.
So that is my quick 2 cents for what it is worth. We are all cheering you on in any case. I seriously admire your persistence given everything you have reported, that is true devotion! |
Edited by - technoyogi on Mar 31 2015 12:03:23 AM |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2015 : 2:50:15 PM
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quote: Originally posted by technoyogi
That was a very instructive lesson (Lesson 366 in particular), thank you Yogani :-)
In it you mentioned the delayed effects that are possible, and I have heard you reference them in other lessons as being part of a cumulative effect.
I don't know if you will see this, and I apologize if this diverts a bit of the discussion, yet I have really been wondering about this for the last month or so, it is probably my single biggest question with AYP right now.
My question is just how delayed these effects can be? ANd is stopping at the first sign of discomfort enough to "head them off at the pass"?
My sense has been that I should back off at the first sign of discomfort, yet thus far I have not really had any. No headaches, wild mood swings, only once did I get a slight pain, etc.
Yet, I also know I have pushed ahead rather quickly on some kechari explorations, reaching early stage four mainly due to curiousity and a naturally long tongue.
So I still try to self regulate and resist the urge to do a full SBP with Kechari stage 3 or 4. I might do 30 seconds though here and there to test the waters.
Yet this idea of delayed effects makes me wonder. In most other aspects of life my persistent, curious nature has helped me, just would like to make sure it does not cause a hindrance here. Maybe even these seemingly innocent forays to find the secret spot, etc., will add up and I will wake up with too much energy symptoms?
If you could clarify a bit how self pacing works in light of this delayed effect aspect, or simply point to the lesson which covers that, I will gladly follow the advice given.
Hi technoyogi:
Practices can produce delayed reactions, particularly with energy stimulating methods like pranayama, kumbhaka, mudras and bandhas. It can even happen with asanas if taken to the extreme. Excessive crown practices can also have delayed reactions, sometimes resulting in imbalances lasting years.
Generally, the more extreme and sustained over time the practice, the more extreme the delayed reaction. The delay and nature of the reaction depends on the unique matrix of obstructions in the practitioner. Delays can be a few hours, a few days, or a few months. There have been several cases where practitioners pushed very hard for years, feeling very good about it, and when the delayed reaction finally set in, became so sensitive that they were unable to practice at all for years after that. Not recommended.
It is good to err on the side of caution. Moderate daily practice according to our capacity, taking months at least between additions (not days or weeks), will lead to balanced results, even where the results are delayed. So there is nothing to worry about as long as we are moderate and don't try to do it all at once. Rome was not built in a day.
In this type of endeavor, less is very often more. Once we have gone into an overload, we are losing time recovering. In this game, slow and steady for as long as it takes is the quickest way. Unlike most striving in life where more is more, spiritual practice is just the opposite, counter-intuitive like that.
This isn't to say we should not press ahead according to our capacity. But be aware that once the inner energy starts to move, it will be wise to scale back on practices and see how it goes. Then come back gently with practices when you are sure there is ongoing stability. A smooth transition like that can take many months. It is a delicate process.
Once the ecstatic energy is flowing, it takes less practice to produce the same or more results. Think of a flywheel we have been increasing the spin on until it finally reaches the optimal speed yielding the desired result. What will happen if we keep spinning it faster and faster than optimal speed? Eventually it will fly off its bearings. Once at the optimal speed it will take less energy, not more, to keep the flywheel spinning at that rate. Spiritual practices are a bit like that. Once we reach an optimal balanced awakening speed, it takes less to maintain that speed, and pressing it beyond that will lead to a diminishing return in the form of overload, instability and sensitivity that can take a considerable amount of time to work off.
These are the finer points of self-pacing that are often missed by over-enthusiastic practitioners. The more advanced we become, the more we come to appreciate that "less is more."
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2015 : 3:32:40 PM
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quote: Once the ecstatic energy is flowing, it takes less practice to produce the same or more results. Think of a flywheel we have been increasing the spin on until it finally reaches the optimal speed yielding the desired result. What will happen if we keep spinning it faster and faster than optimal speed? Eventually it will fly off its bearings. Once at the optimal speed it will take less energy, not more, to keep the flywheel spinning at that rate. Spiritual practices are a bit like that. Once we reach an optimal balanced awakening speed, it takes less to maintain that speed, and pressing it beyond that will lead to a diminishing return in the form of overload, instability and sensitivity that can take a considerable amount of time to work off.
Best analogy ever. |
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technoyogi
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2015 : 5:25:33 PM
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Thank you Yogani for the detailed reply!
Ah, how is it that the hardest thing to do sometimes is to do less?
I pushed ahead with the rationale that I have had a lot of spontaneous energy events in the last 2 years and been fine, yet maybe adding practices to it will be too much too fast at the rate I have added them.
I will scale back practices for awhile to just SBP without all the mudras and bandas, and just DM with Siddhasana. I'd like to swim in the mystic waters with delight instead of drown in them.
The rub for me is that I think the human race is in trouble with exponential technology. My belief is higher consciousness needs to accelerate to cut this trend off at the pass or things will get ugly. Yet I feel like for me to play a meaningful part in helping avert "catastrophe" I need to raise my own consciousness even a bit quicker.
Well, this still gives me years I suppose, so better to be the tortoise than the hare, sigh.... |
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Yogaman
USA
295 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2015 : 1:19:28 PM
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@technoyogi: Thanks for the suggestions. I've been dealing with depression for a while now and it actually led me to make quite a few life changes ver the last few years, meditation/yoga being one of them.
I have maintained a whole foods diet for over 2 years now, no added sugar or refined carbs, quit smoking 3 years ago, exercise daily (walking/hiking/biking as well as bodyweight workouts). Meditation was actually the last thing I added to this lifestyle change. But all has helped.
Activity is the most important aspect, as is accepting the fact that one will always be maintaining a handle on depression with an aim to keep the episodes as short as possible, with the least intensity, and as far apart from each other as can be done. It's not going away, but I have a better handle on it these days.
As an update to my discontent, I maintained a very basic routine of sits this week. They were actually very calm and energetic for the most part. I think the approach of placing less expectation on them has helped.
I do wish there were more people out there who could help with these struggles of doubt and "not much happening". I guess I am in a smaller minority than I realized. Even if that contradicts my real-world experiences with other for ends. Very confusing. But perhaps forums like these attract those with the more scenery-rich experiences.
In a way, I am trying to bring attention that there are a good number of people out there who do not take easily to yoga or meditation. I think it's easy for those who do seem to have encouraging results early on to wonder why more people don't do it, but there are plenty of us out here who do not have these same experiences. I think it can be easy to "preach to the converted".
I was hoping for some veterans who also struggled once as I am now, who could offer some pointers. As an introvert living in an extroverted society, I just feel yet again removed from the experience of my peers. Perhaps fellow strugglers are just less vocal in the forums, but it seems there is little discussion or interest in the topic of "not much happening" which I find curious and interesting. Particularly because it conflicts with my discussions woth people I know in daily non-internet experience.
At any rate, I do appreciate the replies. |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2015 : 4:29:21 PM
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Hi Yogaman, aren't you overlooking what you already reached? When I read your posts, I find your path admirable (look at the brilliant way you just described how you handle depression). Why so much understatement on your posts?
By the way, IMO it is not surprising at all that people usually do not write on a forum when not much is happening, but can write much more when strange or difficult things happen - that is human.
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2015 : 5:49:44 PM
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Hi Yogaman,
if you need a motivational boost, the best you can do in short (also as suggested in the lesson 366):
- meet advanced yogis - practice with them - spend time with them
You will have all you are looking for, granted!
Looking at your situation from here, it seems to be the only thing missing, an actual living example you can relate to in flesh. For me among all books and communication this was also with a ->huge<- difference the strongest factor in all ways.
All in all your results sound very good for 2 years. If you want to speed the situation up in a balanced way, look for anadvanced longterm AYP-practitioner who offers retreats and seriously consider going there.
Btw, if you are living with a partner, practice with her, this will also make a huge difference.
Other than that the classic icebreakers are mudras, bandhas and kumbhaka, still the ranking here from greatest to smallest effect is:
- meeting a realized yogi, practicing and spending time with him/her and his/her advanced students - meeting and practicing with advanced yogis - practicing with one advanced yogi - meeting and practicing with aspiring yogis - practicing with one aspiring yogi :) - karma yoga - mudras, bandhas and kumbhaka, longer practice sessions.. - .. - rest
Utimately if you want to be successful with yoga, just practice with the intention to not even stop when you have reach the goal ;) Then it is a sure thing!
Paace and happy practice to all! |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2015 : 9:32:32 PM
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Dear Yogaman,
I'm in no way an advanced yoga practioner. However, here are the few things I try during "not much happening phase".
- listen to Krishna Das kirtans on YouTube. - listen to interviews with spiritually inclined people on YouTube ( Buddha at the gas pump, Concious TV) are two of the many programs I listen to. - Agree with Holy about spending time with advanced practioner . If you don't have any such person around. I would recommend going to a Yoga Studio and trying an intermediate/ advanced class ( your body mind permitting and consulting with your Doctor). There should be at least few advanced practioners.
You should be able to receive enough boost/transmission from the above.
When all else fails, I just forget everything about spirituality. I just spend few days shopping, listening to music, going for walks, spending time with friends, going away for the weekend, watching movies, dancing, singing, cooking and inviting friends and family for dinner, cleaning , organizing
The vigor returns full swing after a few days break. Hope this helps.
There are not many down days anymore. But when there are and I start feeling down- I just say to the mind "screw you mind". Instead of getting lost in the mind with all its stories. I'll let the mind come up with all the stories and watch it and do all the fun activities I mentioned above. I'm not wasting my time with the mind. I want to savor every minute and enjoy this divine creation and dance in its beauty. I don't have any fireworks anymore. However ,life feels like an adventure everyday. This physical body feels lighter as well. Just keep up your good work with the practices
Sunyata
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2015 : 9:51:32 PM
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Hi Yogaman,
Try just feeling the warm and cool currents in spinal breathing instead of trying to visualize the spinal nerve. |
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Yogaman
USA
295 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2015 : 12:41:58 PM
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Many thanks for the advice! Much good stuff here.
@Holy: I appreciate the time you've taken to delineate these various approaches and levels of effectiveness. Very helpful.
As there's such a huge gap between "exercise yoga" and "meditation yoga" these days, I am assuming the suggestions for seeing out yoga instructors and advanced yogis is referring to the meditation variety. I'll have to look into that a bit.
I think I would be more comfortable around AYP folks (at a retreat or meetup perhaps) since there's more in common and there seems to be a more "practical" vibe among AYPers.
This might sound odd coming from a meditator, but sometimes people who are into meditation and yoga don't always appeal to me. I'm not a "New Age" type person, even though some of the topics interest me. In the past I've found myself distancing myself from gatherings as I just felt — as these periods of doubt tend to do in a more intense fashion — that the experiences were a bit embellished. Don't get me wrong, I am an artist who isn't keen on the art scene or spending time with other artists. It's nothing specific to yoga, I know it's a trait within me.
I bring all this up just to explain why, in periods of doubt, I'd be unlikely to seem out other practitioners or "gurus". The irony may be, as Holy's post mentioned, that it might in fact be a positive environment to supersede such doubts! But even in periods of strong contentment with my practice, I'm just not drawn to congregating with others.
And @Ecd — you are 100% correct in observing that I am overlooking my accomplishments! That's a something I do in all areas of my life (and I don't think I am alone in this). But the depressive episodes tend to really polarize the thinking in these areas — motivation and hopes/expectations are decimated, and no doubt related to this is the inability to really appreciate the past. It's almost as if experience and memory is flattened to the very recent past and the very near future, where the scope of experience is lost and plans and dreams for the future are seen as futile.
At any rate, I am not trying to make excuses, rather I am trying to illuminate the perspective I am coming from in all of this. The advice and suggestions are very appreciated and I'll be thinking them over this week. My improved mood will hopefully inspire me to look into some of the alternatives that I'm a bit hesitant to try.
Thanks again all :) |
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Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2015 : 2:28:59 PM
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Another suggestion you may want to consider is outlined in this post: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=15193
Sitting on something while seated at a desk or in your car allows for siddhasana many times during your day. This stimulates the root, and with little directed attention, the third eye while engaging in daily activity, and may over time boost energetic results. |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2015 : 2:48:08 PM
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Hi Yogaman, depression is a longtime friend of mine, so I agree with the way you describe it and its impact on life, yoga, etc. Glad to read that your mood has improved - it also gives me a positive vibration since I am myself in a depression mood triggered by troubles in my family. |
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Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2015 : 4:12:42 PM
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quote: Hi Yogaman, depression is a longtime friend of mine, so I agree with the way you describe it and its impact on life, yoga, etc. Glad to read that your mood has improved - it also gives me a positive vibration since I am myself in a depression mood triggered by troubles in my family.
Hang in there Ecdyonurus, my friend. Your troubles are our troubles. Yoga will light the way through. |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2015 : 5:01:42 PM
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2015 : 9:48:11 PM
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Hi Yogaman,
the hints above in practical terms were directed to meeting AYP-practitioners and to practice with them together :)
If you haven't read Yogani's retreats book, you will love it. Especially there are many reports in this forum which validate the immensly increased practice effects of groups vs. solo. My own experiences in this regard were also in line and accordingly the ranking above.
More intense results can be obtained by intense solo practice aswell, but the group-push is much more balanced and therefore more helpful in the longterm. If you can tolerate the mid-term consequence, short-term-paradise is easily possible with high doses of pranayama and meditation ;)
Happy and smooth practice friend! :) |
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technoyogi
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2015 : 10:17:30 PM
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I'd have to agree with this Holy. I met my first AYP'er briefly for lunch today, Carson Zi. He had me feeling energetic effects almost immediately. And that was just lunch, I can only imagine what a full retreat would be like :-) |
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adishivayogi
USA
197 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2015 : 1:06:48 PM
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if you dont have kehcari get kechari. also focus on techniques not on sensations (though they are an indication of things) |
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jacquic
Australia
14 Posts |
Posted - Apr 20 2015 : 10:39:20 PM
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Hey Yogaman
Life ebbs and flows; it comes in, it goes out. You can allow yourself the space to step back a bit when you need to. Perhaps pushing too hard at times?
I don't think there is a set timeframe for when spiritual growth occurs. For me, the important thing is just to come back to the practice, day in and day out. I have the odd day where I'm just too tired and exhausted for my practice, and I allow myself to skip it. And often, I find myself settling into it anyway, just because I took the pressure off myself and allowed the break.
I would add one other thing. With the spiritual path, there is no destination. It is simply a practice, a way of living and being. The experiences that come with that are many and varied, but there is no linear progression, no achievements to accomplish. It just is.
Wishing you much love and light. |
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