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snake
United Kingdom
279 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 30 2006 : 10:15:42 AM
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spinal breathing is considered dangerous to some because it doesnt bring the energy down the front of the body.
Please comment on this as it can be worrying
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2006 : 1:37:38 PM
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Hi Snake:
In yoga, the energy coming down the front is regarded primarily as biological, and for that reason is handled mainly with physical methods such as jalandhara bandha, dynamic jalandhara/chin pump, kechari and sambhavi. The lower mudras and bandhas are involved on the other end of the cycle -- mulabandha/asvini (root) and uddiyana/nauli/navi (mid-body).
Obvously, it is the same neuro-biology occurring in the nervous system whether we are in Taoism, Indian Yoga, or any other system of practices. In yoga, the spinal nerve is given preference on the neurological side going in both directions, particularly with spinal breathing pranayama where there is an awakening and balanced blending of ascending and descending pranic energies in the spinal nerve -- an energy dynamic that is apparently not recognized in the same way in Taoism.
The related, but separately regarded "nectar cycle" in yoga is more in line with the Taoist view of the micro-cosmic orbit, with sweet secretions coming down from the brain with the rise of ecstatic conductivity, down through the nasal pharynx, into the digestive system and chest, reprocessed, and cycled back up to the brain again via the spine as a luminous mint-like substance (soma) resulting from "refined digestion" of food & nectar, sexual essenses and air in the GI tract.
I believe the Taoists call the digestive aspect of the cycle, "alchemy occurring in the cauldron," so we are most likely talking about the same process. Only one nervous system, with one process of enlightenment going on...
So, yoga recognizes the cycle. It just divides it into two overlapping components (biological and neurological) and promotes them with an array of practices known to provide the appropriate stimulation.
As they say, "Whatever works!" 
The guru is in you.
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snake
United Kingdom
279 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2006 : 1:57:04 PM
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| thankyou for that most enlightening reply Yogani |
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Bill
USA
46 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2006 : 11:50:41 PM
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Thank you Yogani for this post. i have been expreiencing my MO during the meditation phase of ayp practice lately and yes I do favor the mantra but have been suprised by this.
When I did taoist practices a while ago I had a hard time getting a feeling for the energy coming down the front and now I think that maybe thats a phase of the practice that shouldn't be done intentionally but that it happens when it is right. Maybe that is another aspect of what you mean when you say its biological, it should be an organic unfolding.
There are taoist approaches that use the spinal nerve for ascending and descending. I can think of two in the popular scene of teachings. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2007 : 12:40:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill
[When I did taoist practices a while ago I had a hard time getting a feeling for the energy coming down the front and now I think that maybe thats a phase of the practice that shouldn't be done intentionally but that it happens when it is right.
My experience is that blocks down the front need very careful and conscious addressing. The practices that yogani cites for addressing front channel (jalandhara bandha, dynamic jalandhara/chin pump, kechari and sambhavi) are "balanced" practices that hasten the "up" as well as the "down". For those like me who are naturally very blocked on the "down", more specific work on that is required, and IMO you can't beat the Taoist practices for this. Note that even yogani does tai chi. Neither spinal breathing nor the aforementioned front channel practices will ground you sufficiently if you have a bad front channel downward block.
the big problem happens when kundalini arrives.if you have a downward block in the front channel, pranayama up and down the spinal nerve won't help much (the "up" will carry loads more energy...last thing you need....and the "down" will be insufficient to balance). You're going to need to work on that front channel, to ground the energy.
The reason walking is so inevitably prescribed for kundalini issues (and general over-energized symptoms) is that the connection of feet and earth grounds the energy. But whereas the Indians are only concerned with upwardness, the Taoists have developed far more sophisticated tools for grounding. Look to them for anything grounding, anything yin, anything water. Yogani says that increased silence/shiva is the answer to over-energization. Yin, grounding, water, are the taoist analogs to silence/shiva.
I started with microcosmic orbit, abandoned it for AYP, resumed it when AYP awakened my kundalini, and abandoned it once again, because I didn't want to mix and match practices. But I'm currently back to microcosmic orbit, have worked VERY hard on my front channel, which is finallly (after many years) opening, and it all feels very very very right. Doing meditation with a dynamic energetic loop in place (using no will to keep it in place!) is incredibly smoother, and much harder to overdo, than doing it like a thermometer, with the mercury ready to blast through the end of the glass.
If you don't have a downward block in your front channel (or symptoms of gravely requiring grounding)***, then none of this is relevant to you. This advice is highly specific to just a few practitioners.
***- symptoms include headache, feeling of pressure in forehead or crown, vastly faster and more intense "upward" pranayama than "downward", TMJ (pain in jaw joint), irritibility after practice (even with sufficient rest). |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jun 20 2007 1:04:07 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2007 : 4:19:41 PM
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"Yin, grounding, water, are the taoist analogs to silence/shiva."
Hm. Is that true? I have always thought the feminine-masculine to be analogs. Yin, cold, water - Shakti, cool waves from below in spinal breathing
Yang, heat - Shiva, hot streams from third eye down the spine in spinal breathing. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2007 : 4:44:58 PM
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| Maybe I got my terms crossed. Shakti is the hot fiery kundalini, and Shiva is the cool silence, no? |
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avatar186
USA
146 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2007 : 12:38:53 AM
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| once heard that shakti is only "firey" if the channels arent open. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2007 : 02:30:23 AM
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I also would find that the most logical, Jim, but reading this made me think elsewise:
Q&A – Cool and warm currents in pranayama
http://www.aypsite.org/63.html
"As sexual energy comes up it has that coolness to it,
and the warmness going back down."
I think Shakti is coming from the root and Shiva from the ajna... Confusing, this topic! |
Edited by - emc on Jun 21 2007 02:34:45 AM |
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hopeless meditator
United Kingdom
38 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2007 : 2:57:14 PM
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Hope I am not off topic here, but I recently read a book by a Daoist practitioner in which he referred to Fire and Water meditation methods. However, he didn't go into any detail about these. Can anyone explain what Water meditation methods consist of?  |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2007 : 3:20:35 PM
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hopeless: water is grounding....energy down through feet into the earth. focuses on front channel. it's the opposite of yoga meditation, which is the ultimate fire path...upward and upward. the taoists have stuff for this, see Mantak Chia and Michael Winn if necessary. I do a form of this called deep earth kidney pulsing. A very short, simple physical practice (a qidong, really) that opens front channel and grounds the energy.
Avatar186, it only gives burns if channels aren't open (and nobody's are full open). but burn or not, it's fire.
though, again, I'm not sure I have the terms right and I don't have time to do quick research right now... |
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avatar186
USA
146 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2007 : 9:42:47 PM
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so is the key to be. open enough to be enflamed in fire, yet not singed by it.
ni believe the vibrating breathe energy is the other half of this. |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2007 : 11:26:20 AM
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Hi Hopeless meditator,
I think what you are talking about is the yin/yang style of meditation that is used in Nei Gung. This combines the yin and yang (which is the true meaning of the symbol).The Yang comes from the earth and the yin from the heavens.Search for John Chang on Youtube to see him in action using the abilities gained.
L&L
Dave |
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hopeless meditator
United Kingdom
38 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2007 : 10:20:08 AM
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| Thanks guys! Nei gung and kidneys keep coming to my attention lately. Many thanks for the helpful references to follow this up. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2007 : 12:10:11 PM
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Here's the gist: visualize (it helps to be standing or walking) your solar plexus being connected to the center of the earth. GROUNDING. Let it happen through the feet.
If you try this and get kidney pain, diarreah or night time fever, it's ok It's a healing/flushing thing. Buzzing soles-of-the-feet is also fine.
This is great for yogis, who do so little to really ground their energy all the way. Lack of grounding increases fire (aka pitta) which dries out the kidneys, which diminishes the digestive fire, which requires the lighter yogic diet. And note that grounding (and balancing the fire/pitta) does not in any way put a damper on one's kundalini. It just traverses the microcosmic/macrocosmic orbit. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jun 30 2007 12:12:36 PM |
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hopeless meditator
United Kingdom
38 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2007 : 05:26:43 AM
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Thanks Jim,
I have been having night fevers. Also unusual sensations at the soles of feet. These seem to come and go. Thanks for your explanation - I found it reassuring. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2007 : 10:38:41 AM
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| What do you mean by "night fevers" HM? |
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hopeless meditator
United Kingdom
38 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2007 : 12:19:43 PM
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Hi Anthem,
By night fevers I mean profound sweating all over the body that lasts practically all night.
During the day I notice sweating/perspiration from the scalp/head area only. This tends to occur after eating.
I keep plentiful water supplies to hand so I can rehydrate at night. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2007 : 12:39:59 PM
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Hi HM,
Not to alarm you, though it could simply be symptoms of purification, it might be a good idea to see a doctor regarding symptoms like this.
A |
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hopeless meditator
United Kingdom
38 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2007 : 1:43:17 PM
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Thanks Anthem,
I tend to think this is a consequence of being ungrounded. But, I take your point that it could mean something else. I have been wondering about this for a while. This is why I've been trying to check things out out with Forum members here.
I've been trying to learn Chi Gong from a book and I may simply be practicing incorrectly.
On the other hand, I know that night sweats may be indicative of underlying illness. What would your view be?
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2007 : 1:46:22 PM
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Always good to see doctors. FWIW, here's what I do in situations where I suspect something is a spiritual manifestation but I go to the doctor just to be sure...
If the doctor shows any sign of being confused or puzzled...starts talking about maybe trying tests or this or that.....but gives off an air of bafflement.....thank her/him for the visit and don't take the pills or the tests or whatever.
if the doctor seems confident, favor her/his advice (with care...watching for the point of bafflement if it arises).
This sounds simple minded, but it's always served me well. For example, I had my kundalini eczema rash checked out by a dermatologist. He scratched his chin, said "wow, that's interesting...." and gave me both cortisone AND anti-fungals, since he had no idea which direction to go in. I knew, then, that it was indeed spiritual and not something for medical treatment. Whenever a doctor seems confused by my symptoms or test results, I assume it's spiritual. There is a very sharp line between spiritual symptoms and medical symptoms. The stuff that baffles doctors and scientists is stuff that's going to keep on baffling them until they start understanding things the rishis understood centuries ago!
Finally, hopeless meditator, night sweats are famously one of those ambiguous symptoms that make doctors either hazily annoyed or greedily ready to try lots of stuff. Have a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_sweats
Unless you have other symptoms, this might be one thing to just wait on a while. But follow your instincts.
Oh, and as a PS.....if doctor's are baffled but something's 1. really scaring me and 2. can't be explained by classical spiritual materials, you bet I'll let them work through their bafflement, and I'll take the tests and meds. It is, we must acknowledge, possible for docs to be baffled/confused over a genuine medical situation! |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jul 07 2007 1:50:07 PM |
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hopeless meditator
United Kingdom
38 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2007 : 2:04:55 PM
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Thanks, Jim,
My instincts tell me that I don't know how to manage energy flow, and that this is probably a spiritual problem. It is difficult to find an appropriate person to consult. I've started to see a local acupuncturist. My GP seems puzzled and not very interested at all. I've drastically reduced my meditation time in the hope that things will slowly even out.
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2007 : 4:40:48 PM
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quote:
What would your view be?
Hi HM,
My view would be to see a doctor and follow any tests he prescribes all the way through to eliminate anything more serious. This can provide a great sense of relief when you determine that anything medical has been eliminated.
I definitely don't like to play the role of an alarmist and I apologize if I am causing you any undue stress or worry. I am taking this view with this particular symptom only because my brother and another friend both experienced night fever (sweats) at the onset of Hodgkin’s disease, so I'm likely a little over-sensitive to any mention of it. Their night sweats were accompanied with a general sense of malaise, so it might not apply to your situation at all.
If it persists, it doesn't hurt to check, as they say, better safe than sorry.
A
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2007 : 4:57:44 PM
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Hi Jim,
For sure following our instincts is what works for us, but I have to admit that I would have more doubts about a doctor who appears confident without any information or who makes assumptions on limited information, then I would with a doctor who relates that he or she can't be sure and prescribes scientific testing to determine the reality of the situation.
To me, ego would be more likely to make assertive guesses where humility and genuine knowledge would be more inclined to admit they can't know. But what do I know, not much that's for sure!
A
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avatar186
USA
146 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2007 : 8:43:35 PM
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| im not sure what i am doing, it is a combination of the full breath, and a relaxed root lock. i extend the abdomine out breathing into it, then up into the chest, all the way in and out. done right it seems to make sexual energy rise, and accumulate stronger, slowly. yet i believe consistant rythem is for that no? |
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avatar186
USA
146 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2007 : 03:24:24 AM
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It seems the spinal flow, is connected with the front like a big circul. Ive just many different ways of breathing.
Breathing in, and making the front channel flow down, makes the back channel rise. though on exhalation, this front channel wants to rise.
When i exhail down the spine, i can push the energy out the sexual organ, and it connects with the flow rising in the front.
With this, is it possable to breath in up to the third eye, and if one still has breath,start to breath down? Like the staff with a hook at the top?
How does one manage breathing with kecheri? up the spine and up the toung? |
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spinal breathing versus microcosmic orbit
