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svetamoscow
16 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 16 2014 : 2:45:31 PM
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I was wondering how many people have reached enlightment with the help of AYP? Although probably they have just finished off what they worked on hard for many lifetimes, still it will be very interesting to read details about the final steps in the journey. |
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BillinL.A.
USA
375 Posts |
Posted - Jun 16 2014 : 3:07:21 PM
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Hi Svetamoscow, welcome to the forum! 
Here's Yogani's answer to your question four years ago:
http://www.aypsite.org/426.html
In Lesson 390 he states:
The statement "I am enlightened" is an obstruction on the path. It was covered as one of the half dozen pitfalls of the mind in Lesson 329 "the illusion of attainment, or of having arrived."
...Svetamoscow, so don't be surprised if the enlightened ones here don't admit to it. Plenty of Divine Love expressed here in the forum's banter thouigh and it helps me tons.
Take care! |
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svetamoscow
16 Posts |
Posted - Jun 17 2014 : 07:29:40 AM
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he doesn't really answer the question, the closest he gets is that "discussions about "the attainment" of others are largely a distraction". well, largely, but not always, i think normal people can also talk about important things without turning it into an obsession. the fact that such talks can confuse some people does not make them tabu for all... the confused will always find something or another to confuse them anyway!
as far as The statement "I am enlightened" is an obstruction on the path, that could be, but not for those who have already passed the stage, as he calls it, the ripened fruit falls off the tree. such a fruit will not lift from the ground back to the tree just because somebody else came to know about it!
the gurus in india use this type of excuses to avoid the topic altogether simply because they are far from kaivalya themselves and they know it very well. I hope to meet here more open minded individuals because the time of the "all divine indian" gurus is gradually getting over and time has come that people simply help each other on the path and are allowed to discussing topics previously considered tabu. |
Edited by - svetamoscow on Jun 17 2014 12:11:41 PM |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Jun 17 2014 : 7:41:15 PM
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What is enlightenment is a fair question. Is it the witness state? Some say yes some say yeah maybe stage 1. Many here have reached that I assure you but they would not say they have arrived. There is always more it never ends.
Bill is right. The thought is of the mind. It is ego. Don't be surprised if it is not answered with a lot of reply's. Now talk about the different stages and the experience of said stages is a different matter.
Do you see the difference? |
Edited by - jonesboy on Jun 17 2014 11:29:50 PM |
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svetamoscow
16 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2014 : 07:32:51 AM
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hi, not sure the difference between what and what. your post is not very clear to me.
I am not even asking about how many people have reached various stages, just in general I was wondering how many people within AYP have reached the ripening point of graduating from the material sphere in the way I saw it defined in the main lessons. what is the point of taking about stages if people are not willing to answer my question even in general? |
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Ayiram
88 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2014 : 08:18:07 AM
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hi svetamoscow,
as I see it, Yogani DID answer your question in the lesson 426 that BillinL.A. recommended, but if you don´t want to see it, then nobody can convince you otherwise.
ultimately, even if there were billions enlightened ones out there thanks to AYP, this doesn´t mean AYP will work for you as well.
many of us are here (including myself) coz we :
1. felt drawn to it through Yogani´s writings
2. we are doing the practice and can verify its efficiency experientially.
All the best in finding your way! |
Edited by - Ayiram on Jun 18 2014 08:25:47 AM |
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svetamoscow
16 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2014 : 08:41:10 AM
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hi, what is the actual answer that i did not see? it seemed related to the topic in general, but not to my question in particular. the rest you say is very true of course.
one thing is interesting to observe though, how upon asking this question people immediately try to switch the question to something else instead of going straight to the point. i think the reason for this reaction is this tendency coming from india (that i mentioned above), but it could be something else... maybe it will transpire from other answers here, hopefully.
and no, i am not asking with challenging attitude about AYP, NOT AT ALL. maybe this will be a better formulation of the question HOW MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE VISITING THE AYP FORUMS HAVE REACHED ENLIGHTENMENT?
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Edited by - svetamoscow on Jun 18 2014 09:57:40 AM |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2014 : 09:57:25 AM
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Hi svetamoscow:
No one can answer your question for sure. Everyone has their own opinion about what enlightenment is, and who may or may not have reached it, whatever it is seen to be. So there is no exact answer to your question.
What we can say with confidence is that many are finding steady improvement in the quality of their life with deep meditation and other yoga practices. It has been documented here and elsewhere many times over the years.
Is it perfect? No. But something is happening. If we can't say exactly what enlightenment is or who has it, we can say for sure that many are moving toward something more in life.
As for pinning any single person down on what their enlightenment status is, it is rather a personal question, and the person may not know the answer themselves. If they think they know, they could be projecting something inaccurate that could distract and mislead themselves and others. It happens all the time, sometimes with terrible consequences, and that is why the caution is there about making proclamations of enlightenment, or trusting them. It is not a taboo (anyone can claim whatever they want), just a suggestion to help avoid unnecessary confusion. A practitioner (even an advanced one) could much more easily tell you how much money they have in the bank, or how many times they had sex in the past month. But is any of that your business?
As several have pointed out already, enlightenment is not about anyone else but you, and what you may or may not be doing about it. One thing is for sure, you will never find it in another person. You can only find it in yourself. The system of practices we discuss here is for aiding sincere seekers in that. Whether the practices work or not is less about some ultimate outcome than about what they are contributing to the quality of life along the way. That is the real deal -- results in daily activity -- more peace, energy, creativity, a rising sense of unity and spontaneous service to others. You don't have to take anyone's word on those things. Just practice and find out for yourself.
None of that is going to answer your question about how many enlightened people there are around here, because there is no answer really, other than "Who knows?" It is a perfectly okay answer, because it is the truth. There is just practice and the resulting experience in daily life. The journey is the destination.
As it says in the Bible:
"You will know the tree by its fruit."
(by its conduct, not by what it tells you it is)
So maybe the question needs some work. Try letting it go in abiding inner silence, and in time you will know ... but will not be able to say, because the truth transcends the fickle mind. It is acts in the divine flow that come up instead.
As the ancient Taoist saying about enlightenment goes:
"Those who say do not know. Those who know do not say."
All the best on your path. Practice wisely, and enjoy!
The guru is in you.
PS: If you are interested in end stage development and milestones (as best I could express them) it is suggested to read the later AYP lessons. These have been discussed extensively in the forums as well. But you will not find the precise certification of "enlightenment" you are looking for. Only an honest sharing of practices and experiences at various stages of development (with no ultimate end point), which is the best we can do. How can any of us claim enlightenment when there are so many others suffering and longing for liberation? They are us.
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2014 : 1:59:58 PM
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Note: The results of the AYP Survey offer insight on what has been going on with practitioners who have visited the online community since 2011, with 320 respondents to date.
Quite a few enlightenment experience markers are covered there: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/ayp-survey
TGIIY
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Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2014 : 2:12:42 PM
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...and then do the laundry and take out the trash.
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svetamoscow
16 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2014 : 2:48:16 PM
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thanks for the answers dear Yogani, I am honored to have your personal attention.
Well of course I am was never expecting a number out of a database for obvious reasons. But Yogani's personal guess/estimate would be a very interesting thing to know. I mean would it be dozens, hundreds, thousands... those who have been in touch with AYP or the forum and have graduated from the material existence school, but still live in human body? And, yes, I mean by the definition of kaivalya as understood by yogani, not just the personal opinions of various people.
If somebody graduated from secondary school for example it does not mean of course that this is the end of all learning. I did not ask in that sense, I just thought it would be an interesting and inspirational estimate, especially given by yogani personally. It is just interesting how this "open source" yoga gives fruits, that is all. I know all kinds of Indian gurus and I simply do not see their students reach kaivalya, and the gurus too by the way. But the open source idea seems better for the current world so i decided to ask this question straightforwardly here on the forum. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2014 : 6:12:11 PM
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It's such a relative thing. Relative because it depends on the perspective. What is big from one view is tiny from another. The Earth may seem big from the eyes of a single person, but if we zoom out beyond the galaxy, it's just another tiny speck. Similarly, one woman's enlightement may fall way short of another's because of the standards by which they are judging.
Couldn't we say that, to some extent, everything and everyone is already enlightened, or illuminated--just by virtue of being in existence? From that vantage point, then it's just a matter of refining/improving the quality of life/existence, as Yogani said. Quality of life is the determining factor, and that is a subjective view.
There's quite a few teachers who speak of enlightenment as if it's like flipping an ON/OFF switch. One day you're not enlightened; the next day you are. Yesterday you were not awakened; today you're awakened. Especially when they talk about the "ego", or the abstract Self, and then those teachers will have you waiting for the day when you supposedly transcend whatever it is you think you need to transcend. But I don't buy into that. I think it's like starting from zero, and exploring an infinitude of numbers...all the while remaining tethered to the zero of emptiness/stillness. I can be a 7, a 147, and a 1,000,047...depending on the condition. The emptiness of serenity is the only uniting factor in the conditions. So, that's the foundation: tranquility, serenity, inner silence, the cloud of unknowing.
I am wary of anyone who proclaims enlightenment (or indirectly hints at it) with some kind of finality. I think that's a big trap. My experience of the Infinite, Loving God/Goddess is that there is no ceiling to the way THAT can manifest in the field of beingness. No single human could encapsulate that. Maybe we can dissolve into Unity, but I don't think we can ever capture it, or reach a place of absolute conclusion.
As Buzz Lightyear said: To Infinity and beyond!  |
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svetamoscow
16 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2014 : 03:47:15 AM
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| Very true Bodhi Tree, no i do not think kaivalya is the end of learning and clarified it myself above on this post. As far as my question is concerned I mean something very specific and that is kaivalya as understood by yogani himself. |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2014 : 09:14:09 AM
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Hi svetamoscow:
I do not view enlightenment in terms of any word or definition that has been written, even by me, and have often said so. What matters is actual experience, and not mine necessarily. It is about the sincere longing (bhakti), practices and resulting experiences of everyone. If we are going to make a difference in mitigating suffering in this world, it has to be viewed in that way. All the rest is theory. There are no absolutes, no graduations, no certifications, no diplomas -- only the gradual improvement in quality of life for as many as possible, and there is no limit in it.
There are no haves and have nots here. Everyone has equal access to knowledge and experience, and all levels of progress from beginning stage to end stage are honored equally.
You are looking for a statistic of a particular attainment, and several have attempted to explain why it is not possible to calculate that. The ancients have said the same, so we are not blowing smoke here. Such claims, by anyone, simply cannot be trusted. Cultivation of early stage abiding inner silence (the witness) alone, which thousands have done with AYP deep meditation, could qualify as kaivalya by one definition of it, if not by others. It's just a word, and we could parse it's meaning all day long and get nowhere. But you can be sure that all the daily meditators are getting somewhere, and that is the point.
From my perspective, everyone who is meditating daily has got enlightenment in the bag, especially if they are learning to give their abiding inner silence away in service to others. Getting enlightenment is giving it away. It is stillness in action. You do not have to trust me on that claim. Just meditate! 
Did you take a look at the AYP Survey? It is quite definitive in terms of the percentages of practitioners who are experiencing the various enlightenment markers. And the comments are very revealing also.
The guru is in you.
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svetamoscow
16 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2014 : 09:51:23 AM
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ok, i will give up asking here since even yogani doesn't want to tell me his estimate of his "totally ripe" students. it didn't seem to me that the inner silence is enough to graduate from the school of material existence as far as the the few lessons i read here are concerned, but no problem, it was just a question and everybody has the freedom to reply or not when asked.
yes, i have visited this website few times over the years and noticed the survey. nice idea, it means somebody cares what happens to the students and that is great. yes, the survey, the open source yoga and mediation and fabulous things, no doubt, just it was not what i was asking.
but it was interesting to observe how when asking a question people instead of answering started guessing about what i am thinking and then started commenting those imaginative guesses instead of the actual question.
thanks a lot. |
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Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2014 : 11:14:01 AM
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| The answer is 42. |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2014 : 11:54:11 AM
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| 43 (you omitted me). |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2014 : 7:18:00 PM
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Hi svetamoscow,
I can understand the frustration. Do you have examples where the answer was given more clearly?
I know of Jed McKenna who spoke of 12 fully realized ones according to his insight and definition within 6 years in his system, which was something like finding the answer to the question "what is the truth?".
Also within yoga there are the terms savikalpa, nirvikalpa, sahaja and kaivalya. E.g. Gurunath is pretty precise in these and explains when which what in his book wings to freedom and also gives more details in his babaji book I am reading at the moment. He also gives names and speaks about their attainment and status, so lots of those you would say as of final realization are still on some grade in his mapping.
AYP has a 3 kind mapping, silence, energy, union. To my intuition if you have read Yogani's materials and what you read of those writing in the forums, the gap between him and lets say the second most advanced within AYP is quite huge.
Coming to your question and kaivalya, speaking of someone who is more precise in this and whose group I know within several countries (Gurunath), I'd say even though there are some crazily advanced guys who can for sure enter nirvikalpa samadhi already, to his mapping they are still kindergarten children. And if you experience his advanced students and him and compare, you can also see and experience, that it is so. According to his mapping he himself is only somewhere in the middle, lets say a "little" more advanced even though having attained kaivalya. (In my eyes he is among the most advanced available guys on this planet)
The better question perhaps would be, how many of which system have reached a state of "no problems, all is good, welcome to paradise" aka end of suffering, begin of happiness (=
According to Yogani this begins with the rise of witness. To my experience this also begins if the flow of life becomes paradise (two perspectives, one stillness, one movement). Surely if it is on both ends, this should get a mark in the roadmap (=
If you have the chance to ask others aswell, it would be nice if you could report back here. To my feeling a lot could be mapped and may surely happen more precisely. It is interesting, several hours ago I thought about translatig different languages, mappings into a unified system that can be used as a standard, like ISO or DIN :P
Yogani himself says, that 99%+ of the enlightenment topic is physical transformation, so it should be doable to quite some nice point. Other than that, till then, and that is good advice, one can already practice ;) All the other stuff in parallel (=
A question to you aswell, would you like to share the intention behind your asking? I think it is one of the most important questions, even though its answer may or may not satisfy :D
Peace and enjoy friend,
happy practice to all (= |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2014 : 05:37:02 AM
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In my opinion, the question asked by svetamoscow is very hard to answer because of lack of universal understanding/definition of what "enlightenment" actually is.
But to me, this is not important at all: I don'need any definition of that final goal.
What I am looking for in my life (and in yoga) are practices which lead me in a positive direction in an efficient way. Direction and efficiency are the key words, not the final goal.
Also, I try to get rid of practices and habits which are not helpful or even an obstacle on the path. Thinking too much about the final goal sounds like an obstacle to me. |
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svetamoscow
16 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2014 : 09:42:42 AM
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hi holy, my thoughts are in bold
I can understand the frustration. - actually i am not frustrated, it is also possible to be unfrustrated even when one does not get all answers.
Do you have examples where the answer was given more clearly? - no
so lots of those you would say as of final realization are still on some grade in his mapping. - i have not spoken of final realization, see my posts above. i also do believe that it would be pure fantasy for our stages of understanding at this point to speak about final realization. i was asking specifically about what yogani calls `when the ripen fruit falls of the tree`
the gap between him and lets say the second most advanced within AYP is quite huge. - i do not understand what you mean
The better question perhaps would be, how many of which system have reached a state of "no problems, all is good, welcome to paradise" aka end of suffering, begin of happiness - yes, that is most people wrote here, their better question versions instead of answers to my question.
If you have the chance to ask others aswell, it would be nice if you could report back here. - I do have some friends with whom i could touch this type of topics, but I know of no other big community than AYP where there would be any point to even start this sort of discussion.
A question to you aswell, would you like to share the intention behind your asking? - nothing special, there is nothing behind the question at all. just a question without a tail. i just sat looking at my garden and thought it would be a nice thing to ask. also it would be an inspirational thing to find out, for example recently i met i person with awakened kundalini and my short interaction with him had profound inspiration effect on me.
thanks for the kind attention
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2014 : 01:42:23 AM
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Svetmoscow. Yogani explained it all very well.
There are those here that experience the divine flow. You know this.
Many have in the past as well.
There's nothing more to it than that, we can talk about it all day but we will never nail it down. Nothing is static.
One more thing: consider taking yoganis advice to let your question go in silence. |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2014 : 11:41:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by svetamoscow
HOW MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE VISITING THE AYP FORUMS HAVE REACHED ENLIGHTENMENT?
Probably none.
(I can only speak for myself)
Love! |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2014 : 03:02:10 AM
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Dear Sveta,
AYP has been around some 10 yrs, I believe. It generally takes longer than that for the regular John Doe to reach higher states of samadhis such as those described by Kriya Masters whose lineages have been around for a very long time.
So ask us again in another 20 years
I presume this is what you mean by "reaching enlightment" - disregard if not.
Not enlightened but all lit-up !
Radiance.. 
Sey
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svetamoscow
16 Posts |
Posted - Jul 12 2014 : 3:56:14 PM
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hi "cosmic", i have the feeling that there are some actually...
hi SeySorciere, I personally do not agree with you because it seems from it that people work towards enlightenment only when take to some sort of spiritual practice, while the rest are just wasting time in the endless samsara doing nothing towards enlightenment (which i personally consider to be a very inaccurate misunderstanding coming from modern version of hinduism). in addition you count the years of practice of the poor Joe only in this lifetime which i find rather cruel because I am sure he did something in his numerous other lives as well. let me explain why I speak so confidently about these things. Many Thousands of people have done past life regressions under hypnosis and the information they get access to seems to be very accurate and has been verified by historic records. so it is not just a fantasy. so besides their other lives people often get memories of their inbetween-lifes experiences and many thousands of them have provided a very consistent info about how exactly the law of karma functions and how exactly do we get free eventually because inbetween lives souls seem to be aware of the mechanics of these things. I highly recommend the books of dr brian weis and dr michael newton. |
Edited by - svetamoscow on Jul 13 2014 03:49:36 AM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 12 2014 : 5:37:48 PM
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A little something from Yogani that has been helpful for me re: contemplating past lives and things of that nature...
"Should we be spending our precious time looking back into the murky realms of past lives to understand reasons for what is happening in our lives today? If we work at it long enough, we may find some clarity. But, for the most part, it will be unfathomable, like gazing at star charts, or pondering the effects of stones thrown in ponds, or the whisperings of butterfly wings traveling across the universe.
Our destiny may be hidden in the stars, but the rest will be up to us through the choices we make each day to forward our spiritual progress through practices. We can watch for the lingering effects of ancient events, taking the role of spectator, or we can act in ways that directly influence all outcomes in the here and now, taking the role of participant. In these lessons, we take an active role in moving through the karmic maze, transcending and transforming its manifestations to serve our chosen ideal through bhakti and our daily yoga practices.
In doing so, we will be cultivating abiding inner silence, ecstatic conductivity and stillness in action, leading to the natural ability to transform karmic consequences at their source." [http://www.aypsite.org/343.html]
Strong stuff. Profound implications. |
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svetamoscow
16 Posts |
Posted - Jul 13 2014 : 04:30:06 AM
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hi bodytree, thanks for turning this tread to a different topic, also an interesting one.
my personal opinion on your points - yes, sentimental endless analysis and digging of the past is one of the stupidest way to waste time. and yet a past life regression under hypnosis when done the proper way can in some cases speed up one's evolution to even 200 km per hour! not everybody can use that tool, but thousands have done it, so there is chance.
and yes, reading highly questionable newspaper horoscopes and feeling shackled to a pre written destiny is far worst that time wasting, it is the fast road to depression and dis-empowering one’s own self. that is why simple people are often advised that destiny does not exist so that they do not get confused. however those who can handle a bit more complex concepts can actually go beyond the simplified version and understand that most of the actual events in this particular lifetime are indeed pre destined and the "active role in moving through the karmic maze, transcending and transforming its manifestations” will not result so much in changing the actual events, but other things, for example how we perceive them. |
Edited by - svetamoscow on Jul 13 2014 08:13:49 AM |
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How many people have reached enlightment with AYP?
