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Kyman
530 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 07 2006 : 12:53:19 PM
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I was reading the kechari thread and I noticed that a common difficulty is getting the tongue past the soft pallete.
I'm curious as to what people are thinking, if they are at all, as they press their tongue upwards. |
Edited by - Kyman on Aug 07 2006 12:54:08 PM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2006 : 1:22:25 PM
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| The biggest hindrance seems to be the misconception that the tongue wants to go straight up. It may do so for the purpose of clearing the soft palette, but the direction it wants to move is forward, toward the nose. I got hung up for several months on that upward movement, until I realized my error. So it's briefly upward, then a forward thrust. It's like learning to tie your shoes - once you get it you wonder why it took so long. |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2006 : 01:57:05 AM
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Hi Meg,
Just know recently that you didn't join AYP much earlier than I. SO it's not all 20-years practioners here
I am still in stage 1, and snipping quite dramatically recently. I gained around 5mm in one week (in terms of how back the tongue travels).
I am aware of the fact that the tongue should eventually move (and push) forward. But that's AFTER it gets to the above the soft palate?? For now, if I push it forward it will just stick out of my mouth I did try to push it behind with finger help, but I don't like the feeling because of the throat jam..... I don't even practice Kechari stage 1 because of the throat jam. For now, may be just more and more snipping!!
Any idea?
Alvin |
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2006 : 12:29:15 PM
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Good meg, that is exactly what happened with me. I read long ago that you could push the tongue up in the lessons, but as you probably thought as well, it seemed like to far to push for the time being.
Fortunately, I just decided to do the meditations with my tongue resting on the palette, which later began to become very active with energy.
Since I found out about the ease of slipping it in, I've not attempted it that much. I don't know why I'm being so coy with it. I tried it out today and experience a good bit of tension along these flap like areas. Did you as well?
Alvin, do you experience that ripping kind of feeling when inserting the tongue?
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2006 : 12:09:18 PM
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quote:
Fortunately, I just decided to do the meditations with my tongue resting on the palette, which later began to become very active with energy.
You mean stage one right?? I found that steadying in stage is too distractive for me to do even pranayama, not to mention meditation. Don't you feel that?
quote:
Alvin, do you experience that ripping kind of feeling when inserting the tongue?
Not really. I'm only at stage one and do only during kumbhaka, and my frenum is too strong to be torn by the tongue muscles. I am not pushing the tongue, since I don't want to throat jam feeling. Not so much about the pain... |
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2006 : 1:23:12 PM
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Stage one was extremely energizing for me. It became natural for my tongue to almost always be touching the roof of my mouth. Throughout the day and especially meditation my tongue would be pulled up into the throat. The tip of my tongue seemed to burrow into that thing that dangles down, the uvula is it?. Just recently I discovered the entry way to the nasal passage was right behind that little dangly thing.
The ripping sensation I am getting is not in the tongue. Its that little slip of tissue the tongue slides into and then past. When my tongue starts to travel farther up it puts more pressure on that flap.
Yogani, during two of my meditations my tongue was pulled upward and my air way became blocked. Should I be pointing my tongue in a different direction? |
Edited by - Kyman on Aug 10 2006 1:28:29 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2006 : 2:21:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyman
Stage one was extremely energizing for me. It became natural for my tongue to almost always be touching the roof of my mouth. Throughout the day and especially meditation my tongue would be pulled up into the throat. The tip of my tongue seemed to burrow into that thing that dangles down, the uvula is it?. Just recently I discovered the entry way to the nasal passage was right behind that little dangly thing.
The ripping sensation I am getting is not in the tongue. Its that little slip of tissue the tongue slides into and then past. When my tongue starts to travel farther up it puts more pressure on that flap.
Yogani, during two of my meditations my tongue was pulled upward and my air way became blocked. Should I be pointing my tongue in a different direction?
Stage one was very energizing for me too. I also know the ripping sensation.. I went through that. Kyman, just continue pushing your tongue in and the opening gets wider and later you wont feel the ripping any more. If it is makng you sore, you may want to back off for a bit. The feeling of the air way becoming blocked means you are in the right direction.. once you move in a little more and /or the opening becomes a little wider.. you will be able to move your tongue to one side so at one time only one nasal passage is blocked.. that way the breathing gets easier.
Another thing I noticed, in the moring if I block my right nostril I find it hard to breath and in the evening if I block my left nostril I feel the same. This reminded me of a postwhere ycloutier2000 had posted this...
quote:
"For one, I think the knowledge of Swara to be fascinating. For me, also practical.
As you msy know, Swara deals with the breath and its effects on prana, psychology and physiology depending on which nostril is operating. Breath is solar in energy when operating through the right nostril, and lunar through the left. Depending on which nostril is operating, certain activites are better suited according to the operating nostril.
As simple example. Eating should be done when the right nostril is operating. When the right operates, it faciliates the acidic secretions, digestive juices being one of them. For years I had been suffering of poor digestion, resulting in food allergies and bad complexion. I have noticed that most of the time my left nostril is dominant. Eventhough it's normally supposed to alternate every 1-2 hours, it doesn't for me. Since starting to force my dominant nostril to be the right while eating, all my problems have magically disappeared. No more dyspepsia, no more belching, no more allergies, no more pimples.
Swara scriptures say that by knowledge of swara, even the highest Rasayanas(very best ayurvedic herbal medicines) become obselete. Ayurvedic medicines work to regulate imbalances that have developed. Herbs and food affect the Swara. For example taking a herb with heating qualities, the right nostril will operate. If a cooling one, the left will operate. I am betting that this is how the Rishis of old came to classify all the herbs and foods as either heating or cooling - by observing their effects on swara.
Maybe it has nothing to do with this.. but I was curious.. anyone else experiences this?
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Edited by - Shanti on Aug 10 2006 2:25:59 PM |
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2006 : 10:03:48 PM
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My nostrils seem to be closed a good bit of the time.
I have a strong intuition that this is very much related to my day to day experience. I bet if I study more on this it will greatly impact my body. Thank you very much for posting. I appriciate your help. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2006 : 03:55:26 AM
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Hi Kyman & All,
Timely thread!
;-)
I'm in the midst of dealing with the KKK.
That's right - "Klassic Kechari Konundrum".
: )
On a scale of 1 to 10, Bhakti and Ecstatic Conductivity are running at roughly 17.5 (No kidding. And I'm okay with that part. Really. Really really.)
I, too, am still in Stage 1 --- tongue reaches the Uvula - from the Sanskrit "Uvulaa" meaning "little dangly thing" - ;-) - and when it's really relaxed (tongue, not dangly thing), it can push up just a little on the soft palate [not as much as I originally thought - i.e. there's more soft palate back there than I had realized).
Fingersploring has led me to realize that my tongue is on a shorter leash that I realized, and it will be a cold day on Yamaloka before my tongue gets to Stage 2 without some proactive de-tetherization (aka SNIPPING).
Tonight, I was meditating (actually "pranayamating" with another "...ating" or two thrown in for good measure [all part of my practice for some time -- I hit AYP kind of "mid-stream" [after a few years of meditation / tantric / yogic practices] and do my best to integrate it all within the general [very wise, I've found] parameters of AYP) --- and, the ecstasy became nicely turbocharged (<--- Please Note that this sentence has been nominated for the Understatement of the Century Award ... ;-) ).
For the first time, my tongue was trying to swim upstream to its spawning ground in my brain (at least that's what it feels like, direction-wise, energy-wise, and "tongue-motivation-wise") with such vigor that my airway became blocked as well (for, like, 1/2 a second or so, and there was zero fear, along with 100% awareness of safety -- i.e. a solid 15-20% greater awareness of safety than I have just walking around, most days [if you like, look at your own conditioning honestly - if you're doing better than this 80%+ sense of safety - you're doing *very* well!] --- so that part was fine ...
And .... it felt like a GREAT time to re-approach snipping.
And it was.
Right up to the snipping part.
;-)
I'm still dealing with:
1. Tongue won't hold still.
2. Lighting / depth perception never seems right.
3. The few times snipper blades connect with frenulum, there's enough of a pinch, that I'm convinced if I snip *through* "said frenulum", that I will wake up in a pool of blood on my bathroom floor, with a non-working tongue lolling out of my mouth ("You fool! THAT wasn't the frenulum!")
i.e. My Mahamkarasamkaras (i.e. "Stuff") have me convinced that no matter HOW good an idea snipping seems (and it seems like a REALLY good idea) -- that I will undoubtedly do myself damage and/or accidentally remove half my face by sneezing at the wrong second -- if snippage proceeds.
"When Karma meets Dharma --- Hoo Boy!"
Krishna to Arjuna, Bhagavad Gita, California Standard Edition
So, as the entheogenically-minded among you undoubtedly known, there are online chemical-spiritual experiences (i.e. Ram Dass / LSD) known as "Trip Reports".
This here, then, was a Snip Report.
Of Sorts.
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman
PS - Stage 1 is really rather infinitely awesome --- but I'm really itchin' to get to what's next. Thinking of a little Anbesol [numbing agent marketed for the relief of parents of children who are teething .... ;-) ] assist (but am *really* nervous that this could result in the *unwanted* accidental modification of one of my all-time favorite body parts.
Any and all comments most welcome. |
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sparkyfoxMD
United Kingdom
35 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2006 : 07:46:53 AM
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Hi
Why not do what I did? Go to your dentist and get your frenum removed!
Having said that, Im taking my time and stretching the tongue daily, and am getting nearer stage 2 but am not there yet. With my it seems that changing direction at the uvula point is the problem...a thrust forwards rather than up...anyway, I would recommend it.
I didnt cut my frenum myself because
1. I have a small jaw and mouth architecture
2. I too found problems with lighting etc
3. I am very accident prone and would probably have severed my tongue! (Im joking but you know what I mean)
Good luck, be patient
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2006 : 08:34:20 AM
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Both of you guys could enter stage two probably tonight if you use the finger to push the tongue back.
AYP covers the method in the lessons.
There are many of here already who were shocked to learn that the passage upward is right under the uvulaa. If you can use your finger to push the tongue back into the throat, you will have enough distance to over shoot the uvulaa just barely. At that point apply pressure to point the tongue as if to come back down and the tip should feel the enterence right under the uvulaa.
The passage and the uvualaa are one. You just have to push through on the opposide side of the uvulaa. When the tongue goes up it slides right over the uvulaa, and when the tongue comes back down it pushes through into the nasal passage. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2006 : 3:32:42 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Kyman
Both of you guys could enter stage two probably tonight if you use the finger to push the tongue back.
Kyman,
First: THANKS -- Your encouragement and pragmatic suggestions are very helpful -- from visualization / optimism standpoints, if nothing else!
Alas, to this point, it is "nothing else". I'll give details below, and if you or anyone else has further thoughts (especially, considering the information below, if it sounds possible for me to get into Stage 2 Kechari, anytime soon, without snipping or "dental assistance [professional "all at once" snipping] -- those suggestions are most welcome.
1. Bhakti (Including Nectar)
Per previous posts, my bhakti is running very high - especially after (sometimes during) a meditation session, including pranayam (spinal breathing) and tantric (self) practices.
I did a separate post on sweet-tasting "nectar" (a couple of weeks back, I believe), which seems to spontaneously flow, in my mouth, after a certain level of ecstatic conductivity has been stimulated (speaking of the result; this just happens - it's not a goal) by practices.
Recently (last week or two), I've noticed that the nectar seems to be squirting from my tongue (in a manner very much like sexual ejaculation).
Originally, I posted something about it being "2-3x" thicker than saliva - scratch that - bad attempt at example. It's a lot like saliva, but ever-so-slightly oily-sticky (in a very pleasant way) - kind of like honey, but with a different kind of sweetness (and much more like saliva than honey in thickness ---- the oiliness, stickiness and sweetness are very, very subtle.
The reason I go into all that, is that this nectar seems to have two direct [potential] benefits, related to attaining Stage 2 Kechari.
A. The ejaculation of the nectar (which can occur every minute or two, at points), ratchets up the Bhakti a notch or several -- which, among other things, directly increases the relaxation of the tongue -- which causes it to be able to go farther back, more easily.
B. The nectar acts like a "Yogic WD-40" - and causes the tongue to slide back across the hard and soft palates with complete ease.
So - that's all awesome, and I thought it might help to "get me there" [Stage 2 Kechari], but so far, no.
(And on top of that aspect of the discussion, I thought it might be helpful to the group to have the info, purely as "data points", per the fact that [stepping into my best, and hopefully decent "Yogani voice", here ....  - "This group in engaged in some grand experiments, you know!")
As In: One never knows when "Dr. Joe Neuroscientist", who is trying to determine if subtle energies and yogic practices are potentially a valid area of scientific study, or if they are simple a bunch of new-age woo-woo liberal-commie Bible-hating pot-loving tree-hugging hippie-trippy crap -- stumbles across the forum -- and finds dozens if not hundreds of "living cases studies", from all across the globe - and across all gender / age / cultural / economic and religious lines.
The future of this whole world is in you.
And me.
And this.
2. Tongue "Length" / Frenum Tightness - aka "Short-Leash Syndrome"
Okay, so, I can play Beethoven's Fifth (or at least Cowboy, by Kid Rock ...) on my Uvula, with my tongue, with both hands in the Heart Mudra (and/or tied behind my back ....).
So, I'm definitely "back there", tongue-tip-wise.
However, when I try to push back, including to the side [either side] - the frenum seems to be stretched to its limit. I can feel the soft palate, but when I try to go either farther back or up, the tongue pulls forward, back into "hard palate land".
It sounded as if you were saying that you thought that if I was as far back as I am in Stage 1, that I should be able to get into Stage 2 via the "finger method" -- but per all of this, that doesn't seem to be the case (at least so far --- and believe me, I'm open to diligently continuing to try, and/or trying different things).
I've even tried pushing the base of the tongue farther back, but that didn't seem to work nearly as well in practice, as in theory ....
And lest anyone think I went "flick / push / Naaah"- the total time spent on direct experimentation / attempts (to try Kyman's suggestions, to get into Stage 2 Kechari) -- at least 1 hour -- and combined with directly-related practices -- at least 3 hours - in the last 24 hours).
And please note that this doesn't conflict with AYP-recommended daily practice times -- I don't exceed those. The extra time mentioned above, is accounted for by some personal relaxation / visualization practices that I do, and flat-out "Go Kechari 2!" attempts (i.e. standing in front of the mirror, gently coax-shoving my tongue as far back into my skull as it will currently go).
So, that's my "State of the Tongue" address for the moment.
Any and all further commentary / advice is most welcome!!
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman
"In the beginning was the Word -- and now look!"
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Kechari methods
