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kami
USA
920 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 10 2013 : 1:46:08 PM
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A while ago, I was drawn to traditional tantric teachings and esoteric practices. As a result, finally there is a growing experiential understanding of what tantra really is and its remarkable healing transformative power.
Shiva represents consciousness - alone, he is inert. Shakti is creation; She provides movement and dynamism to Shiva. Neither can create without the other; thus, Shiva is often depicted as Ardhanariswara – half Shiva and half Shakti. Shiva is the “nothing” while Shakti is the “everything” – yet, the nothing and the everything exist simultaneously, inexorably entwined. Yoga is the path of Shiva, starting with the viewpoint that Shiva and Shakti become as though separated in the process of creation. The purpose of yoga is to bring them back together (yoga = to join). Tantra is the path of Shakti, starting with the viewpoint that Shiva and Shakti exist together, and that the most effective way to experience Shiva is through Shakti in her infinite manifestations (tantra; tanoti = expansion, trayoti = liberation). While the yogi renounces in order to know Shiva, the tantric embraces the totality of life experiences knowing them all to be Shakti. The traditional practice of tantra lies in the effective use of mantra (name) and yantra (form) to know the nameless and formless Brahman. While Advaita Vedanta sees all of creation to be an illusion, the tantrik (from the point of view of the embodied jiva) sees creation to be very much real, a play of the Divine Mother on the fabric of immutable consciousness that is the Divine Father. Shakti is simultaneously seen as being benign and beautiful as well as ferocious and terrible – there is no aspect of creation that it is not Her. Tantra teaches one to see Her beauty and to love Her in Her infinite forms, no matter how depraved or heinous. By expanding the limited mind beyond the dualities of good/bad, beautiful/ugly, right/wrong, like/dislike, the tantric arrives at the same place as the adept yogi or the renunciate Vedantin – Oneness; seeing that Brahman is the nondual reality, in and through the mirage of duality.
While bhakti has been a strong element in my sadhana, the type of surrender that Shakti demands and gets is in a league of its own. There is the strong impulse to give up everything to Her as an offering – my body in fasting, my breath in pranayama, my limitations, pain and selfish desires as incense, my deep-rooted vasanas (samskaras) as flowers. Nothing can remain as “mine”, not even the sadhana itself. There is an intense growing need to burn in the inner ritual fire of devotion and austerity, to let it hone and chisel my being as it will.
How this transforms intimate relationships is a miraculous gift. No physical contact is necessary, and certainly no need for sexual gymnastics. As I learn to become vulnerable, soft and yielding in merely learning to see the Divine Mother in everything, my partner responds in kind, even while not being consciously aware of his mirroring. The more I'm called to serve him by putting aside the "my-ness", the more exquisite is the intimacy that arises. We progressively become adept at keeping up this sacred Deva-Devi dance even while being thousands of miles apart. One look surpasses a thousand words, a simple hug is an act of worship, being in the same room is blissful, even while engaged in our own activities. But this intimacy is not limited and has the natural tendency to spread to other relationships as well - as long as my walls come down and I remain unafraid to be vulnerable and lovingly secure in the dance of Shiva-Shakti within myself.
As I learn to internalize and experience the Sri Yantra, there is an intuitive seeing of the Bindu that remains still in and through all of creation that is in constant motion. The Divine Mother is so compassionate that all I need to do is ask, and She gives more than I ask for. I ask for clarity to look at my limitations, and She grants it along with compassion for myself and others so I may understand the universality of such limitations and behave with tolerance. I ask for Her love and She shows me in a thousand different ways every day that love shines bright all around me. I ask for courage, strength, wisdom.. and it is done, showing up in unexpected ways. Most of all, I beg Her for abiding knowledge of Brahman, and She points me to myself, again and again.
The esoteric inner rituals of Tantra have finally brought a vibrant aliveness to what I thought were "my" revered paths - the clean logic of Advaita Vedanta and the austerities of yoga.
How I was led to Tantra is another story of Grace of my beloved Babaji - slowly but surely he leads me home.
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Dec 10 2013 : 2:54:51 PM
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Nice Kami! Your posts have been amazing lately! Thank you :)
May I say something a bit off topic, and I wonder if Yogani and or Shanti might chime in.
You posted on another thread today by anonymous123. The thread was under the Tantra Forum, and he equated tantra with sex. You corrected him, and I wondered why is that forum called tantra? I feel that it reinforces inaccurate stereotypes. Its like saying all Taoist practices are sexual.
I'm not trying to derail your thread, though I guess I am doing just that! Well, anyhow, maybe we can change the title of the Tantra Forum to sexual practices or something. After all, we have many people here practicing tantra yoga that do not engage in sexual practices. |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Dec 10 2013 : 8:50:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
Nice Kami! Your posts have been amazing lately! Thank you :)
May I say something a bit off topic, and I wonder if Yogani and or Shanti might chime in.
You posted on another thread today by anonymous123. The thread was under the Tantra Forum, and he equated tantra with sex. You corrected him, and I wondered why is that forum called tantra? I feel that it reinforces inaccurate stereotypes. Its like saying all Taoist practices are sexual.
I'm not trying to derail your thread, though I guess I am doing just that! Well, anyhow, maybe we can change the title of the Tantra Forum to sexual practices or something. After all, we have many people here practicing tantra yoga that do not engage in sexual practices.
Thank you so much for reading and the kind words TTN.
I did consider posting in "Other Systems" because of the exact thing you say. Equating tantra with sex brings up all sorts of issues IMHO, perhaps particularly when the path of tantra is not well understood. I am still learning, and by no means is my understanding complete..
All rituals in tantra are aimed to purify the elements making up the individual being – earth, water, fire, air and ether. This purification ritual, also known as Bhuta Shuddhi or Tattwa Shuddhi is rooted in the understanding that in the individual being, Shiva and Shakti can be experienced wholly only when the elements making up the individual jiva are transcended. The tools (mantra, yantra) used in Tantra depend upon the particular path – the Dakshina marga or right-handed path is one of knowledge and internal worship, while the Kaula marga or left-handed path is one of external rituals based on one’s level of development.
There are 5 offerings in the ritual of tantra – madya (wine), mamsa (flesh), matsya (fish), mithuna (sex) and mudra (gestures). And this is where gunas come in. For one that is tamasic (enshrouded in ignorance and inertia), the external tools of eating meat/fish, consuming wine, having sex and physical hand gestures aid in providing the stimulus to get out of the tamasic state. For one that is rajasic (hyperactive mind), further stimulation is detrimental; therefore, the ritual becomes more internal and softer – various types of vegetables (ginger, radish etc) are substituted for meat and fish, honey for wine and flowers for sex. As we become more and more sattvic, external rituals are unnecessary - they are done away with as the mind becomes quieter.
It is easy to fall into the trap of "left hand tantra" because it provides one an "ok" of sorts to indulge to the extreme, something not even otherwise discussed in spiritual paths. However, saying "yes" to the pleasure of sex and "no" to pain and suffering is by no means the whole left hand path. In fact, the left hand path of tantra is said to be like a razor's edge, extremely difficult to traverse because of the inherent human tendency to succumb to sense pleasures. This path is about developing equanimity across the spectrum of experiences - true tantrics in the left hand path remain totally centered be it in sex, or in the midst of death of extreme physical/circumstantial suffering.
So grateful to have been led to tantra..
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Dec 10 2013 : 11:42:24 PM
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| Yes, tantra has a lot to offer. And so much of yoga comes from tantra already. If you keep posting about tantric practices there will be at least one person reading every word. Thanks again for your wisdom |
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Sappho
Thailand
2 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2013 : 01:00:37 AM
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| Many people who practice tantra or take part in tantric practices are celibate, it happens. The illusion that tantra is always sexual is a modern one. There is confusion between bliss and kundalini awakening and sexual acts...the three are not always connected and can be spiritual in origin. To associate it with just a sexual act and try and pigeon hole it, is limiting something amazing and beyond the comprehension of most people to an earthly common experience. I have been practicing Tantra for over 35 years and had never heard of it associated with two paths...my religion/spiritual beliefs offer a middle path as the right road...so where does that fit in? |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2013 : 06:47:14 AM
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Thanks kami for you exquisite first post
I was particularly taken with
"How this transforms intimate relationships is a miraculous gift. No physical contact is necessary, and certainly no need for sexual gymnastics. As I learn to become vulnerable, soft and yielding in merely learning to see the Divine Mother in everything, my partner responds in kind, even while not being consciously aware of his mirroring. The more I'm called to serve him by putting aside the "my-ness", the more exquisite is the intimacy that arises. We progressively become adept at keeping up this sacred Deva-Devi dance even while being thousands of miles apart. One look surpasses a thousand words, a simple hug is an act of worship, being in the same room is blissful, even while engaged in our own activities. But this intimacy is not limited and has the natural tendency to spread to other relationships as well - as long as my walls come down and I remain unafraid to be vulnerable and lovingly secure in the dance of Shiva-Shakti within myself."
Although I don't have a relationship like that I recognise it in myself and how it can, as you say, spread to others.
I am often distracted by mind thoughts of physical desire, and I think being a man I may be more prone to this than women are, in general(tell me if I'm wrong). When I can let go this distraction, which is often not easy, I can feel the deep peace immediately. I think for men, in general, who do not have an intimate relationship with a partner, letting go this old desire which I think is based on procreation and survival of the species, can be a big hurdle.
So in reading your post I feel transcended beyond the limitations of the mind sex(which translates to the physical) I get drawn towards. And this is beautiful.
With love
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2013 : 10:33:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
As I learn to internalize and experience the Sri Yantra, there is an intuitive seeing of the Bindu that remains still in and through all of creation that is in constant motion. The Divine Mother is so compassionate that all I need to do is ask, and She gives more than I ask for. I ask for clarity to look at my limitations, and She grants it along with compassion for myself and others so I may understand the universality of such limitations and behave with tolerance. I ask for Her love and She shows me in a thousand different ways every day that love shines bright all around me. I ask for courage, strength, wisdom.. and it is done, showing up in unexpected ways. Most of all, I beg Her for abiding knowledge of Brahman, and She points me to myself, again and again.
The esoteric inner rituals of Tantra have finally brought a vibrant aliveness to what I thought were "my" revered paths - the clean logic of Advaita Vedanta and the austerities of yoga.
Wow!  Sign me up for that trip.  Thank you for sharing your journey, with such eloquence and hope. Very resonant with the body-mind over here. |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2013 : 12:47:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
Although I don't have a relationship like that I recognise it in myself and how it can, as you say, spread to others.
I am often distracted by mind thoughts of physical desire, and I think being a man I may be more prone to this than women are, in general(tell me if I'm wrong). When I can let go this distraction, which is often not easy, I can feel the deep peace immediately. I think for men, in general, who do not have an intimate relationship with a partner, letting go this old desire which I think is based on procreation and survival of the species, can be a big hurdle.
Thank you dear Sparkle, for your kindness that is a constant inspiration here.
What you say seems to be true. Perhaps sex (in terms of preoccupation with it) is a bigger issue for men. In women, the issues tend to be more heart-centered, where sex is only part of that whole thing. For me personally, the primary issue was about self-worth; deep-rooted anger and insecurity resulted in becoming an over-achiever in whatever I undertook, all to fill the gaping hole of feeling unloved. My nature is that of intensity and passion - nothing I do is ever half-hearted. But, perhaps partly due to cultural conditioning and mostly my own samskaras, sex has never held the kind of fascination it does for some. What I craved most for was for a partner to make me feel worthy and loved.
It is ultimately how we perceive ourselves that drives everything we do, including our attitude to intimacy. I had disowned the sacred feminine within myself, surrounding my inner and outer environment with "masculine" stuff - outward directed energies with resistance to receptivity. I simply didn't know how to receive, even when it was given. It is only by looking within and re-discovering the softness of receptivity that the gaping hole is being filled. It cannot be done outside in - this lesson on how to live fully is tantra's greatest gift to me.
Must also say that such inquiry and openings are greatly facilitated by the "right" partner - my husband is the only man who has been able to contain my intensity. In the naturally virtuous way he lives and in his rock-like stoic presence, he inspires me to be a better person and commands my deep respect and worship. In our deepening heart connection, he adores me without being sappy (which I would probably not do well with). We could be celibate for the rest of our lives and be just as passionately intimate, for sex has never been a big deal for him either.
Long ago, someone in our extended family had a vision of us being like Kali dancing on the sedate Shiva. I didn't appreciate that analogy at the time, but this is exactly how I see it now. 
Much love. |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2013 : 1:15:22 PM
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Thank you dear TTN, Sappho and Bodhi.
Much love to you all.
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2013 : 06:01:25 AM
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Hi kami
Yes there does seem to be a fascination and preoccupation with sex for men. From my observation, both in myself and in speaking frankly to others, it is relatively superficial. The thing that most men, especially as they get older, want and need is to love someone and be loved by that someone.
Within that sense of aloneness, if one does not have an intimate partner, there can often be this play of sexual desire going on and even though it may not be what is primarily wanted or needed, it seems to be there, in my case as an annoyance, popping up and interfering with my peace. whilst it could be said to be "not that big a deal", it does tend to use a lot of energy, mainly mental.
I think the path of a person who has an intimate loving relationship is a different path to one who does not. There are different forces at work and different parameters to work with.
From what I know of the Buddha, he did the work on his own without an intimate relationship with another, and the images I've seen of his final temptations were of being tempted by women in a sexual way. Whether this is true or not I don't know but I take refuge in this a little, as I sometimes feel it might be the last hurdle within for a man. The distractions go on even for a man with an open heart.
I accept too that some men do not have sexual cravings, but speaking in general here.
I accept too the "gaping hole" you spoke of. The feelings of being unloved and also of being "not good enough" etc. I am working on aspects of shame and guilt in myself at the moment. I think the inner work of shame is very useful with all of this, especially when brought up in holy catholic Ireland and I would imagine India and other places also.
Anyway it is beautiful and very inspiring to read of your relationship with your husband, it brings a smile to my face, and strangely it seems to resonate on an individual level, to me at least, as something that is inside each individual rather than being dependent on another. Maybe the other person is a catalyst and not co-dependent, in the same way as what often happens in this Sangha as people share and interact. But that is just my take on it, with my felt experience and projections.
With love |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2013 : 10:55:39 AM
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We all long for intimate relationships, its part of human biology. Its just as valid as any samadhi experience.
Everyone is different, so we have 1,000,000,000 unique flavors of relationships. I think most people are drawn to intimate, loving partnerships but of course not all. Preoccupation with sex can be unhealthy, but a dogs gotta eat, haha.
Of course, the Buddha was imperfect in this way too. His path to realization begins with his choice to abandon his wife and child. |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2013 : 07:20:32 AM
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Thank you again Sparkle and TTN.
Must emphasize that not having sexual cravings does not mean one is off the hook. There are other aspects of Mara (the Buddha's "demon" of temptation) - selfishness, insecurity, intolerance, fear of the unknown, righteous indignation, strong opinions (which are always divisive), and on and on.. These (and many others) are my personal demons. Preoccupation with sex is "unhealthy" if it pulls one into its seductive trap. If seen to be just another passing demon, it is a non-issue.
In high school I was strongly drawn to a monastic life. The idea was scoffed at in my family, making me feel more alone and misunderstood. But in retrospect, that would have been suboptimal - intimate relationships provide the greatest grist for the mill IMHO. In the way I interact with my partner and children, I know exactly where I am and what I need to work on. Far easier to be enlightened on a lonely mountaintop..
The only way to grow in intimate relationships is to put aside "my-ness". This can be the greatest vehicle for Bhakti and surrender, because these relationships are also where the greatest resistance is (in general) to giving in. Sex can be a barrier to spiritual growth if it is about fulfilling one's own primal needs. If it is an act of surrendering fully to the other as the natural outcome of daily life lived with that intent, it is worship.. and what tantra really is.
PS: TTN, I understand what you say about Siddhartha ditching his wife and child to become the Buddha. That is unthinkable for most. But, that was not unusual in those days - spiritual quest was considered noble enough to abandon one's family. His wife became his disciple and took monastic vows when he returned.. Swami Ramdas is another example in modern times.. Dharma is a tricky thing - what is dharma for you may be totally adharmic for me, and vice versa. So who am I to judge? |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2013 : 11:50:54 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
Thank you again Sparkle and TTN.
Must emphasize that not having sexual cravings does not mean one is off the hook. There are other aspects of Mara (the Buddha's "demon" of temptation) - selfishness, insecurity, intolerance, fear of the unknown, righteous indignation, strong opinions (which are always divisive), and on and on.. These (and many others) are my personal demons. Preoccupation with sex is "unhealthy" if it pulls one into its seductive trap. If seen to be just another passing demon, it is a non-issue.
In high school I was strongly drawn to a monastic life. The idea was scoffed at in my family, making me feel more alone and misunderstood. But in retrospect, that would have been suboptimal - intimate relationships provide the greatest grist for the mill IMHO. In the way I interact with my partner and children, I know exactly where I am and what I need to work on. Far easier to be enlightened on a lonely mountaintop..
The only way to grow in intimate relationships is to put aside "my-ness". This can be the greatest vehicle for Bhakti and surrender, because these relationships are also where the greatest resistance is (in general) to giving in. Sex can be a barrier to spiritual growth if it is about fulfilling one's own primal needs. If it is an act of surrendering fully to the other as the natural outcome of daily life lived with that intent, it is worship.. and what tantra really is.
PS: TTN, I understand what you say about Siddhartha ditching his wife and child to become the Buddha. That is unthinkable for most. But, that was not unusual in those days - spiritual quest was considered noble enough to abandon one's family. His wife became his disciple and took monastic vows when he returned.. Swami Ramdas is another example in modern times.. Dharma is a tricky thing - what is dharma for you may be totally adharmic for me, and vice versa. So who am I to judge?
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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2014 : 12:20:18 AM
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Hi kami and all,
quote:
Originally posted by kami
While Advaita Vedanta sees all of creation to be an illusion, the tantrik (from the point of view of the embodied jiva) sees creation to be very much real, a play of the Divine Mother on the fabric of immutable consciousness that is the Divine Father. Shakti is simultaneously seen as being benign and beautiful as well as ferocious and terrible – there is no aspect of creation that it is not Her. Tantra teaches one to see Her beauty and to love Her in Her infinite forms, no matter how depraved or heinous. By expanding the limited mind beyond the dualities of good/bad, beautiful/ugly, right/wrong, like/dislike, the tantric arrives at the same place as the adept yogi or the renunciate Vedantin – Oneness; seeing that Brahman is the nondual reality, in and through the mirage of duality.
How do you see the expansion of the mind beyond dualities in line of the observance of yamas/niyamas?
What is the Tantric view on the latter? Are they mostly social and societal constructs or do they have deep spiritual meaning for the development of consciousness?
Thank you for sharing your explorations into Tantra..
Omsat
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2014 : 08:09:15 AM
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Dear Omsat,
Thanks for reviving this thread.
And that is an excellent question. There is a reason that yamas and niyamas come first in the Yoga sutras. And contrary to popular belief, the basic tenets of tantra are also yamas and niyamas, particularly Brahmacharya and Ishwara pranidhana (surrender to chosen ideal), as discussed in the first post.
No matter what faith you look into, the yamas and niyamas are more or less the foundation. They can be given names like "dharma" in the Hindu way of life or "sin" in others. Why are they the foundation? Because they are needed for society to function in harmony. Take for example adultery. It is unacceptable in all faiths (although distorted in some perhaps). Why? It does not matter what society one is in - adultery causes pain to all concerned. There is no free pass with it, just like with lying, cheating, killing. All of them create strong vasanas that bind us tightly into the illusion of being a separate self.
The purpose of tantra is the same as yoga and Vedanta - to get past this illusion of being a separate self. So tantrics try to remain in the Bindu no matter what is happening "to" them. The left-handed path is not just about sex. The serious tantric goes to the extremes of pleasure and pain to transcend them. Thus, seeking out exceedingly painful situations is also left-handed tantra - sticking only to pleasure is not it. Consuming forbidden substances like offal, excreta, human remains, etc, walking on hot coals, tongue piercing with multiple spears.. All of these also form that path. Anyone can have sex, develop a bunch of techniques to prolong orgasm and think they are a tantric. Any time a difficult situation comes up outside the bedroom, they are distraught and complain endlessly. No, that is not how that works. 
Even in tantra, any "harm" done is only to one's own body. Stepping out of yamas and niyamas is strictly forbidden. Having illicit "tantric" partners, etc is not recommended. The goal real tantra is to stop creating vasanas for oneself. Sexual techniques are recommended for those who are in such relationships, not to seek them out (because, surrender is the code word for tantra, not sex). We surrender to whatever situation we happen to be in, letting any life experience be experienced fully.
To get a real taste of tantra, I highly recommend the Vignana Bhairava Tantra, Shiva's discourse to Parvati on all the ways one can transcend ordinary experience. Many free online versions are available. I have Osho's version and love it.
Much love to you dear Omsat. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2014 : 09:46:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
No matter what faith you look into, the yamas and niyamas are more or less the foundation. They can be given names like "dharma" in the Hindu way of life or "sin" in others. Why are they the foundation? Because they are needed for society to function in harmony. Take for example adultery. It is unacceptable in all faiths (although distorted in some perhaps). Why? It does not matter what society one is in - adultery causes pain to all concerned. There is no free pass with it, just like with lying, cheating, killing.
Do you think the compulsion for adultery is removed once satisfaction is achieved? In other words, if someone is dwelling in a relationship of abundance (emotionally, mentally, spiritually, sexually, etc.), wouldn't the temptation to cheat be automatically removed?
Reason I mention it is because I cheated on my wife, and I think it was largely due to that lack of fullness/fulfillment. So, the cheating was a way of wrecking the train without trying to get it back on track. Now, I've learned that just because something is struggling a little, doesn't mean that it's defunct or hopeless. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, you know.
Of course, when I confessed my sin to her, we went into marriage counseling, and some transformation started to occur. But the momentum wasn't strong enough to carry us through. We both benefitted tremendously though. Live and learn.
On this note, aren't the restraints and observances more of a byproduct of bliss consciousness (abiding in the peaceful Self), than the result of externally imposed rules from whatever tradition? If the bliss consciousness is not present within the person, or the partnership, aren't the rules bound to be broken until satisfaction is achieved?
Perhaps that is why Yogani suggests Deep Meditation as the core, rather than restraints/observances. Of course, he says that excess sensory indulgence can nullify the effects of DM, so the inward/outward modalities work hand-in-hand, naturally.
Thank you for the exploratory topic. |
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Anima
484 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2014 : 12:54:46 PM
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quote:
Kami:
While Advaita Vedanta sees all of creation to be an illusion, the tantrik (from the point of view of the embodied jiva) sees creation to be very much real, a play of the Divine Mother on the fabric of immutable consciousness that is the Divine Father. Shakti is simultaneously seen as being benign and beautiful as well as ferocious and terrible – there is no aspect of creation that it is not Her. Tantra teaches one to see Her beauty and to love Her in Her infinite forms, no matter how depraved or heinous....
The purpose of tantra is the same as yoga and Vedanta - to get past this illusion of being a separate self. So tantrics try to remain in the Bindu no matter what is happening "to" them. The left-handed path is not just about sex. The serious tantric goes to the extremes of pleasure and pain to transcend them. Thus, seeking out exceedingly painful situations is also left-handed tantra - sticking only to pleasure is not it. Consuming forbidden substances like offal, excreta, human remains, etc, walking on hot coals, tongue piercing with multiple spears.. All of these also form that path. Anyone can have sex, develop a bunch of techniques to prolong orgasm and think they are a tantric. Any time a difficult situation comes up outside the bedroom, they are distraught and complain endlessly. No, that is not how that works.
I feel this, too, this experience of the reality of diversity in unity, and the reality of unity in diversity. The perception in any turn is a metaphor, I suppose, just as real as fictitious truths and truthful fictions. |
Edited by - Anima on Mar 09 2014 1:19:28 PM |
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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2014 : 10:35:46 PM
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Dear kami,
quote:
Originally posted by kami
Thanks for reviving this thread.
My pleasure
Thank you for the very lucid pointers..
quote:
The basic tenets of tantra are also yamas and niyamas, particularly Brahmacharya and Ishwara pranidhana (surrender to chosen ideal), as discussed in the first post.
Yes, this has also been my understanding; even amongst very free-minded people in Tantra schools the yamas/niyamas, including Brahmacarya and Ishwara pranidhana are strongly emphasized. The interpretation of the practical implementation of yamas/niyamas tends to vary, sometimes quite dramatically it seems.
When it comes to adultery, the example you give, it is very obvious from the connotation of the term itself that it is a violation of yamas/niyamas.
Yet, it will be good to be careful to know where is the violation of the yamas/niyamas here? Is it in the act of making love to another partner itself? Or is it in being dishonest to one's first partner and commitment to them? To me, the latter seems to be the offense. The former seems to be a private intimate matter of the partners involved. There may be pittfalls involved, as with any choice truly and it is mostly the conscientiousness of those involved that can tell with sufficient consciousness of the deeper inner motivations.
Then, it can be seen often yamas/niyamas are becoming a societal agreement thing more than an individual spiritual conscious choice. Ideally the indivdidual and society blend well with each other. As the individual realizes the societal interpretation of right/wrong is time-bound and culturally inspired, he/she may feel more drawn to alternative choices.
quote:
Originally posted by kami
No matter what faith you look into, the yamas and niyamas are more or less the foundation. They can be given names like "dharma" in the Hindu way of life or "sin" in others.
Yes.. In the Buddhist path also morality is said to be the foundation as well as in most any religions we may study.
At the same time, gurus often are said to transcend what is perceived as deviation from the yamas/niyamas by most. Sometimes as a justification for perhaps truly undesirable behaviour. Sometimes perhaps for mysterious but truly loving reasons (there's examples of this in Yogananda's Autobiography amongst others).
Apart from the potentiality of a very uplifted Being for the purpose of reducing worse harm, quite a few respected teachers seem to point out that virtue is a cultural and societal phenomenon that has little to do with yamas/niyamas. More importantly, they suggest, true virtue comes naturally and cannot be obtained by outside impositions.
quote:
Originally posted by kami
The purpose of tantra is the same as yoga and Vedanta - to get past this illusion of being a separate self. So tantrics try to remain in the Bindu no matter what is happening "to" them. The left-handed path is not just about sex. The serious tantric goes to the extremes of pleasure and pain to transcend them. Thus, seeking out exceedingly painful situations is also left-handed tantra - sticking only to pleasure is not it. Consuming forbidden substances like offal, excreta, human remains, etc, walking on hot coals, tongue piercing with multiple spears.. All of these also form that path. Anyone can have sex, develop a bunch of techniques to prolong orgasm and think they are a tantric. Any time a difficult situation comes up outside the bedroom, they are distraught and complain endlessly. No, that is not how that works.
Even in tantra, any "harm" done is only to one's own body. Stepping out of yamas and niyamas is strictly forbidden. Having illicit "tantric" partners, etc is not recommended. The goal real tantra is to stop creating vasanas for oneself. Sexual techniques are recommended for those who are in such relationships, not to seek them out (because, surrender is the code word for tantra, not sex). We surrender to whatever situation we happen to be in, letting any life experience be experienced fully.
To get a real taste of tantra, I highly recommend the Vignana Bhairava Tantra, Shiva's discourse to Parvati on all the ways one can transcend ordinary experience. Many free online versions are available. I have Osho's version and love it.
Much love to you dear Omsat.
Powerful examples
I agree.. Thank you for sharing these insights and understanding. When Tantra is understood that way, it is truly seen as a remarkable and inspiring Path.
Thank you for the Vignana Bhairava Tantra reference..
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2014 : 08:35:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
On this note, aren't the restraints and observances more of a byproduct of bliss consciousness (abiding in the peaceful Self), than the result of externally imposed rules from whatever tradition? If the bliss consciousness is not present within the person, or the partnership, aren't the rules bound to be broken until satisfaction is achieved?
Perhaps that is why Yogani suggests Deep Meditation as the core, rather than restraints/observances. Of course, he says that excess sensory indulgence can nullify the effects of DM, so the inward/outward modalities work hand-in-hand, naturally.
Hi Bodhi,
Agreed. Externally imposed rules only work so much. There is a natural desire for freedom to do as we want, in general. Being a rebel by nature, I am not in favor of highly moralistic traditions either; they are stifling and superfluous. Neither do I subscribe to the concept of sin. There are societies where no rule is needed - everyone in the community simply lives in harmony with everyone else. However, not everyone is capable of living within the restraints of communal harmony - look at modern culture, where individualism is so greatly valued. "My" success, "my" growth, "my" pleasures are valued at the cost of "not my" problems (i.e., everyone else). Every one of us has a conscience. The only thing we need to do is listen to that small still voice.
Yogani's advice is solid. Cultivating inner silence gives us the ability to listen to that voice. Sitting practices bring us in line with yamas and niyamas, without them being imposed on us.
But this is where it gets dicey. Without the inner compass, trying to practice left-hand tantra becomes licentiousness. This is why the classic texts strongly advise against practicing left-hand tantra without the direct guidance of a guru, who can cut through our false understandings of equating spiritual progress with sense indulgence. There is a very fine but definite line between the two. Not having enough inner silence blurs this line. Even great sages fall prey to this; Maya is that alluring. What then, of practitioners like us?
In some Buddhist traditions, energy practices are not even discussed until inner silence is established. Without cultivating the witness, it is not easy to differentiate urges arising from Kundalini/energy activation versus base desires.
Is it necessarily true that "getting it out of the system" is a good solution? What about raping, killing, stealing? Where on the spectrum can we place it and say "this is okay, but this is not"? Can we teach our children that it is okay to steal "small things but not big ones"? What needs to be gotten out of the system is the root cause of the drive - tight identification as the separate self. Tantra is not a license to do as one pleases in the name of spirituality - watch porn, have illicit affairs, indulge mindlessly in sex or anything else. No real tantric goes around announcing, "I had tantric sex today." That is the biggest misunderstanding.
When inside-out has not yet happened, outside-in becomes necessary, even though it is not fully effective.
In general, I feel that the solution for all of the world's problems is deep meditation.
Much love. |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2014 : 08:54:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Omsat
Yet, it will be good to be careful to know where is the violation of the yamas/niyamas here? Is it in the act of making love to another partner itself? Or is it in being dishonest to one's first partner and commitment to them? To me, the latter seems to be the offense. The former seems to be a private intimate matter of the partners involved.
Hi Omsat,
In the context above, here is a link to lesson #149 on the eight limbs of yoga:
http://www.aypsite.org/149.html
Specifically,
1. Yama – It means "restraint," and includes ahimsa (non-violence), satya (truthfulness), asteya (non-stealing), brahmacharya (preservation of sexual energy and cultivation of it), and aparigraha (non-covetousness).
2. Niyama – It means "observance," and includes saucha (purity and cleanliness), samtosa (contentment), tapas (heat/focus/austerity), svadhyaya (study of scriptures and self), and isvara pranidhana (surrender to the divine).
When we decide to look outside of our partner for sense gratification, we have violated the following yamas - ahimsa by causing harm (even if by intention to stray), satya (by violating the original commitment), aparigraha ("coveting" something/someone that does not "belong" to us), brahmacharya (no explanation needed) and the niyamas of saucha (purity of mind, which is violated by not being in line with satya), santosha (lack of contentment with what we have), tapas (austerity) and Ishwara pranidhana (no explanation needed).
Having said this, does it happen that we can sometimes stray? Sure. But to stray and justify it as tantra is not really tantra. That is the point. Neither do these teachings advocate staying in a relationship/situation that is harmful/degrading/abusive, etc. Surrender is required for all of it - to know when to stay, when to leave, when we have strayed and when we have realized that we have strayed. That is tantra - allowing the divine to work through us.
Tantra is actually the practice of letting go of "my" will.
Much love. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2014 : 09:22:37 AM
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Thank you.
So, would you also agree, that the desire for licentiousness is actually just a distorted version of desire for God-union, and therefore, that the refined expression of said desire is of the highest spiritual value? |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2014 : 10:38:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
Thank you.
So, would you also agree, that the desire for licentiousness is actually just a distorted version of desire for God-union, and therefore, that the refined expression of said desire is of the highest spiritual value?
Yes
Desire for licentiousness is not tantra. Seeing through it via surrender as being distorted is the scope of tantra, right or left handed.
Desire by itself is not the issue. The value added to it in the form of attachment is the problem. It is possible to transmute all desires via Bhakti, and further on, see them to arise in Oneness as Oneness, in complete surrender (aka, lack of resistance). Then, none of it is a problem, and there is no push to acknowledge or act on any arising. All just is.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2014 : 12:02:37 PM
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| One final question: Will we zoom through the outer reaches of the cosmos and penetrate the vast mysteries of creation in our ongoing journey of evolution that appears to have no end? |
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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2014 : 10:35:17 PM
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Thank you, dear Kami for bringing up so many relevant nuances and careful interpretation in an elegant structured way.
quote:
Originally posted by kami
Hi Omsat,
When we decide to look outside of our partner for sense gratification, we have violated the following yamas - ahimsa by causing harm (even if by intention to stray), satya (by violating the original commitment), aparigraha ("coveting" something/someone that does not "belong" to us), brahmacharya (no explanation needed) and the niyamas of saucha (purity of mind, which is violated by not being in line with satya), santosha (lack of contentment with what we have), tapas (austerity) and Ishwara pranidhana (no explanation needed).
I see what you are pointing at. This interpretation of violation of the yamas/niyamas is given the context of the common social and cultural context and given certain implicitly or explicitly made expectations of partners involved. The social and cultural context is not necessarily uniquely virtuous. The expectations of partners involved are highly individual, though often interwoven with society's expectations.
So, I agree with your interpretation of violation of yamas/niyamas in many a commonly thought of situations, especially if it is defined as "looking outside of our partner for sense gratification" (which is not what I was referring to in my previous post).
I would tend to different interpretations in some different contexts.
When the intention is refined, altruistic and/or mutually spiritually expansive. This may be hard to see and in that case little relevant, yet it exists and it will be good to be aware before labelling as violation of yama/niyama.
Some deep rooted beliefs about sexuality (looking at it as a lower, animalistic thing) hinder the seeing of such positive interpretation.
Even if it is to be interpreted as rising from the lower, there is strong potential for subliming transformation when the intention is such and the capacity has been developed. This is indeed, as you pointed out, why Brahmacarya is highly emphasized in legitimate Tantric traditions.
More specifically:
1. Ahimsa is not violated when all partners involved look at it as a positive, uplifting event and feel happy for their partner's happiness. As a mother is happy seeing her daugther's joy in walking hand in hand with her caring brother. This vision will be extremely difficult with a negative belief system about sexuality (where it is regarded as lower and/or guilt/shame are experienced).
2. Satya is not violated when all partners are honest and communicating about their expectations which match with each other (eg. all are and know being in an open relationship and value this).
3. Aparigraha is not violated when no one is seen to be belonging to someone. Again, this will often not be the case as most of us tend to be possessive about our partners to some extent.
4. Brahmacharya is maintaining ojas / refraining from explosive orgasms. This can be cultivated with strict celibacy as well as with engagement in lovemaking with a loving partner. For one who is in the process of cultivating this with a partner or one whom can already do so, brahmacharya is not violated.
The Niyamas are very subtle in this context.. One has to look deep within with much honesty to know where one is coming from.
There is, as you very rightly point out, a risk of fooling oneself.. If the intention is right, going on a challenging path that tends to reveal one's intentions, subtle or less, has an uplifting potential.
It is all a matter of purity of intention in the end..
One thing seems clear: Walking any spiritual path becomes a very fine and subtle endeavour, challenging all we ever thought was true about life..
Gratitude for the opportunity to share in this loving environment |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2014 : 11:27:19 PM
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Thank you, Omsat. Very good reading of the codes as they apply here.
I do have one minor quibble. I'd like to point out that bramhacharya can be practiced without the need to withhold physical orgasm. I know this is the common definition, but some practitioners don't require preservation in order to experience ecstatic absorption. Therefore there must be a deeper level to bramhacharya.
My two cents is that the term is better understood as chasity, a sexual purity.
Chastity does not mean abstinent, although that is a popular understanding.
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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2014 : 01:13:40 AM
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Hi tonightsthenight,
quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
Thank you, Omsat. Very good reading of the codes as they apply here.
I do have one minor quibble. I'd like to point out that bramhacharya can be practiced without the need to withhold physical orgasm. I know this is the common definition, but some practitioners don't require preservation in order to experience ecstatic absorption. Therefore there must be a deeper level to bramhacharya.
My two cents is that the term is better understood as chasity, a sexual purity.
Chastity does not mean abstinent, although that is a popular understanding.
Thank you for this.
quote:
Bramhacharya can be practiced without the need to withhold physical orgasm
I have an idea about what you could mean, eg. if distinction is made between explosive and implosive orgasm. Is that what you meant indeed?
quote:
Some practitioners don't require preservation in order to experience ecstatic absorption. Therefore there must be a deeper level to bramhacharya.
Is the presence of ecstatic absorption sufficient to uphold brahmacharya is maintained?
Could you clarify/elaborate on your understanding of brahmacharya/chastity? Or refer to a source that goes into this perhaps? |
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Tantra - another perspective
