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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 05 2006 : 04:26:40 AM
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I spent some time today with an acquaintance I've known for years, but with whom I've never socialized. He told me he was enlightened. Hmm. I asked him to elaborate, which he did without restraint, and although I remain skeptical, his answers were, to my mind, sound and convincing (unattachment, self-realization, a dollop of egolessness, and so on). Still, it seemed suspicious that an enlightened being would feel the need to tell me that he was an enlightened being. It would have been so much more effective if I'd been given the opportunity to figure it out for myself. I think that stating that you're enlightened is like stating that you're terribly modest or utterly brilliant: the fact that you've said it most likely makes it false.
Have any of you ever met an enlightened person? How does one tell if a person is enlightened? Are any of you out there enlightened? If you were would you say so? |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2006 : 04:51:20 AM
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Hi meg,
no, I don't call myself fully, completely enlightened.
Would I tell it if I were ?
Probably not, but I don't know.
If in such a case I would meet a person who is looking
for an enlightened beeing, then I might give that
person a hint may be, but I don't know,
because I am not fully enlightened now ...
regards
Wolfgang
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2006 : 10:08:31 AM
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Meg,
how did the subject come up? Did he lead into it, or did you lead into it? Does he show other significant signs of "ego"?
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2006 : 10:18:23 AM
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Hi Meg 
I can't speak about your friend - he may be sincere; he may live in delusion.
But.....what did your heart take in from him?
Apart from him saying he is enlightened....how did you feel in his presence?
Here are some words from 'Sailor' Bob Adamson:
That presence of awareness is non-conceptual. You don't have to hold a concept about it. It's ever fresh because it has no beginning and no end. It is self-shining like the sun. It shines of itself. It doesn't need a light to say 'I am shining'. And that is what it is, just that which you cannot escape from, which you cannot get away from-presence-awareness.
May all your Nows be Here |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2006 : 10:31:31 AM
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Hmmm....I would strongly advise against trusting your heart. It's not that difficult to cultivate sufficient energy that someone "feels something" in one's presence. Charisma is relatively easy to develop. which is why bad, selfish, corrupt gurus (and bad selfish corrupt people generally) attract followers
I posted this last year, and I still believe it's apt.
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Here's a way: "Whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." Serious countenanced holy men with grim faces, those with a studiedly loving aura who wield their bright wise eyes like torches, anyone projecting a polished image of any sort, or who show any self consciousness whatsoever (even a trace)...all these people are still living in the realm of mind and ego. Those who remove mind and ego are utterly (but playfully) immersed in every action, and don't give a damn about appearances. Like a small child.
If you meet a holy man who you couldn't imagine coming right up to and playing slap hands with, s/he is still anchored in mind/samsara/ego. Sounds silly, but I think that can actually be used as a litmus test.
You mentioned Amma, and there's a lot to dislike about her organizationm and I'm not saying she's necessarily the saint they say she is (nor am I saying she's not). But the one time I saw her (I skipped the hug, fwiw), she was absolutely like a small child, and I'm completely convinced it wasn't for show. So there's something there.
Of course, child-like and childish are completely different things! :)
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2006 : 12:41:36 PM
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Jim said:
Hmmm....I would strongly advise against trusting your heart. It's not that difficult to cultivate sufficient energy that someone "feels something" in one's presence. Charisma is relatively easy to develop. which is why bad, selfish, corrupt gurus (and bad selfish corrupt people generally) attract followers
Yip, 100% agreement. The reaction that you feel in someone's presence is over-rated as a positive.
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2006 : 2:14:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Jim said:
Hmmm....I would strongly advise against trusting your heart. It's not that difficult to cultivate sufficient energy that someone "feels something" in one's presence. Charisma is relatively easy to develop. which is why bad, selfish, corrupt gurus (and bad selfish corrupt people generally) attract followers
Yip, 100% agreement. The reaction that you feel in someone's presence is over-rated as a positive.
In this case it's a moot point, as I didn't feel especially great in his presence. Didn't feel bad, just not drawn to him in the charismatic sense. He's a nice guy, and that's about it. For me.
I think that David has hit the nail on the head with the question of ego. The subject of spiritual paths came up quickly and easily, and he told his story, ending with, ". . . and that's how I became enlightened." Do you think you're enlightened? I asked. I know I am, he said. Long silence. How do you know? And then he gave me some of the reasons cited above. Later he said something that was ego-based, and I teased him that this didn't sound like something that an enlightened being would say. He answered my rib by stating that when you're enlightened, you still have ego and desires, but you're simply not attached to them. True.
It's not for me to judge whether or not this guy is enlightened. I don't really care. The more interesting question for me is how to tell whether or not someone is. Or if it even matters. I'd like to think that, should I become enlightened in this lifetime, I'll have neatly dealt with my ego by then. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2006 : 4:46:33 PM
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quote:
It's not for me to judge whether or not this guy is enlightened. I don't really care. The more interesting question for me is how to tell whether or not someone is.
A different angle:
It takes one to know one
May all your Nows be Here |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2006 : 5:06:48 PM
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I think different people and groups have different views of what enlightenment is.
It would not be uncommon for someone, for instance, who has had an awakening peak experience which might last weeks, months or years i.e. being reborn or some equivalent, to consider themselves enlightened. They would often see the world in a completely different way and understand spiritual texts, such as bible stuff, in a "mystical" way that they now suddenly completely inderstand.
This is not that uncommon in spiritual circles, but does not qualify as enlightenment. In fact, it has probably been responsible for a lot of the atrocities in religion where such a person attributes the awakening to that particular religion or belief and is utterly convinced that it is the only way.
I would think being enlightened is being very advanced in humility. How can anyone say they are very advanced in humility - the contradiction says it all.
(by humility I mean the real deal - not an ego based notion of one being humble)
I have a healer friend who is really just an "ordinary joe soap" in many ways, but in the years that I have known the person I have always felt completely accepted by her. ( and she has seen many many of my complete blunders).
She is not enlightened and she would never consider herself as such, but it strikes me that she has the qualities that Yogani speaks of when he talks of the love flowing out of stillness and permeating all. This translating into ones actions and words, I think is quite evident in a person's countanence of spontaneous living in love, in the now. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2006 : 5:21:02 PM
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Later he said something that was ego-based, and I teased him that this didn't sound like something that an enlightened being would say. He answered my rib by stating that when you're enlightened, you still have ego and desires, but you're simply not attached to them. True.
Some people have low standards in what they would call 'enlightened' some have high. In the higher standards to which I hold the meaning of the word, Meg, you're still right though in what you said to him -- there are still things that significantly enlightened people are unlikely to say. So, to my mind, a lot would have hinged on what he actually said. This might give me a clue whether he has low standards for the meaning of the word, or high.....
P.S. I posted at the same time as Louis. Agreement with what he said. Many people go through a significant transition then become inflated because they erroneously believe it is complete.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jul 05 2006 5:23:17 PM |
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Babaly
USA
112 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2006 : 6:09:03 PM
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Hi Meg,
I think you are on the right track by being hesitant in believing your friend.
I have met a couple of enlightened people and in my experience that is one of the last things they would ever say.....
They say you know an enlightened person by how you feel by being around them: lighter, happier more free.
Did you experience anything like that after spending time with this guy?
Love and light,
Babaly
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2006 : 6:15:15 PM
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Great topic, Meg.
Enlightenment is the absence of delusion. The ego, being a delusion, seems to disappear to the enlightened one. The person is free from ego...and it's not as if it appears every once in a while yet they're unattached to it. The truly enlightened person sees through ego, and once seen through, it can't exist anymore. It's like a mirage. Just like when you're driving in the summer and you see a spot up ahead that looks like water...the ego disappears and you realize it never was there, like the water wasn't there.
So an enlightened person can seem like they have an ego, just as the hot road can seem like it has water on it, but if they're truly enlightened it doesn't apply to them.
The trouble comes in when people start worshipping enlightened people, because of two reasons. 1) They avoid their own enlightenment in worshipping someone and 2) The person may just be seeking attention and they might not be enlightened at all.
So the moral of the story is: enlighten yourself!
-Scott |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2006 : 12:46:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott
The person is free from ego...and it's not as if it appears every once in a while yet they're unattached to it. The truly enlightened person sees through ego, and once seen through, it can't exist anymore.
Hi Scott,
This point of view came up in a conversation I had last week. I asked, "What is ego? Isn't it just a fancy word for 'I'"? So if the claim "I'm enlightened" means "I'm free from ego," wouldn't that be like saying, "I'm without an 'I'"? Would an enlightened person, in your view ever say "I" as in I think, I feel etc.
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2006 : 12:58:49 AM
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quote:
The more interesting question for me is how to tell whether or not someone is.
How to test the knowledge of a chemistry professor? Who can test it? A better or equally learned chemistry professor.
Similarly I feel it takes another enlightened to "correctly" judge one! All the rules that unenlightened (read not-yet-enlightened) ppl make will be wild guesses at the best.
-Near |
Edited by - nearoanoke on Jul 06 2006 12:59:12 AM |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2006 : 01:11:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by meg
Are any of you out there enlightened?
Hi Meg,
That question amuses me.
I suspect I've experienced the sort of "cessation of suffering" that constituted the origin of the idea of nirvana in classic theraveda buddhism -- the candle goes out. I remember a gap of not having an "I". It was like a deep sleep only, unlike ordinary deep sleep where you go in and come out gradually, I remember clearly my last though before going in and my first thought after coming out. There was no groggy phase. And there was a noticeable absence of that sort of perpetual background noise of desire I had always taken for granted.
I felt childlike in the sense of being receptive and trusting. I was unburdened, free of care. But not intoxicated... my thoughts were clear.
I'm not in nirvana now... in this moment; however, if I remember that "gap", my whole being is inclined toward it and some degree of the desirelessness returns. I'm not on a path that keeps me perpetually inclined toward nirvana though, and I don't think I am able to lead anyone else to that nirvana I passed through.
Therefore, I'm not enlightened. I'm curious, is there anyone else out there who has a distinct impression that they have experienced nirvana? On the other had, would someone like to disabuse me of the notion that nirvana is what I experienced? |
Edited by - bewell on Jul 06 2006 03:29:37 AM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2006 : 03:30:23 AM
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bewell said:
quote:
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Therefore, I'm not enlightened. I'm curious, is there anyone else out there who has a distinct impression that they have experienced nirvana? On the other had, would someone like to disabuse me of the notion that nirvana is what I experienced?
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Personally I think we have all had glimpses of nirvana, or at least some sort of filtered light of it through many veils.
When we are caught in a moment of awe at the beauty of say, a rose. In that instant of awe we get a glimpse of nirvana.
This is why we can probably recognise it in others, or at least some of the qualities of it, because we have all experienced it to one degree or another, it is us, we are it, we just don't often get that.
To hold enlightenment as some unobtainable thing in ones mind is just as much an illusion as to say we are enlightened.  |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2006 : 04:11:05 AM
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Thanks everyone for your enlightened responses. :) I was remembering Frank's posts from a few months ago, where he interviewed a man who apparently was enlightened. He was meek, very humbled by his experience; it's hard to imagine him running around telling people of his advanced state of consciousness.
Babaly wrote: They say you know an enlightened person by how you feel by being around them: lighter, happier more free. Did you experience anything like that after spending time with this guy?
Yes, Babaly - I felt lighter, happier, and freer after spending time with him. |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2006 : 3:09:29 PM
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Hello
When does becoming enlightened end? Never, I hope. As long as I am a "separate identity" I pray that I always have the experience of being enlightened. I do believe though that there is a certain "opening", or beginning stage of "self-realization" that I am currently "working" for which I would consider a place of enlightenment that seems still barely out of reach, but getting closer. Like the kind of turning over event that our burger eating friendKirtanman has shared over on the bhakti yoga thread. He mentions being able to now see an aura of enlightenment on certain individuals.
Who knows how many stages of enlightenment there may be for an individual?
I'm thinking of meanings to the word enlighten. Like to be informed, "enlighten me", or to be led to an awareness of so that I can see for myself. These are things that God and Guru grace us with. The peeling of the enlightenment banana for me is certainly due to my effort. But as I reach each step down that path the peace and beauty I come to know indeed humble me as a grace bestowed.
Peace, alan |
Edited by - alan on Jul 06 2006 4:21:26 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2006 : 4:38:45 PM
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Hi Meg & All,
Don't have time to offer input in detail at the moment (per the request in one of the responses to my Ecstasy vs. Toxicity post in the Bhakti folder), but as a prelude ....
Please visit www.adyashanti.org, and click on the Teachings link. There's audio, video and printed material.
I highly recommend the video as a clear example of what a fully realized / enlightened yet "normal, regular" guy looks and sounds like - and what he says, when in "teaching mode".
And please note: there's nothing "propriertary" or "he's realized _because_ he's my teacher".
Adya - his colloquial nickname -- is not my teacher --- he's just a powerful spiritual influence and resource in my life and practice, and an all-around great human being.
So if anyone has concern about the "check out *my* enlightened guy* dynamic --- please note that this is not my motivation -- and please just follow the link; I believe you'll see what I'm talking about --- but if not, the info there will hopefully serve to facilitate this conversation.
: )
Cheers & Namaste,
Kirtanman
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2006 : 4:52:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bewell
[quote]This point of view came up in a conversation I had last week. I asked, "What is ego? Isn't it just a fancy word for 'I'"? So if the claim "I'm enlightened" means "I'm free from ego," wouldn't that be like saying, "I'm without an 'I'"? Would an enlightened person, in your view ever say "I" as in I think, I feel etc.
Something is coming through to me in what I've read here. When we say "I am", where do we place the "I"? Most of us place it in the ego. I am this: this body, this personality, these desires. These particulars are the ego. They are what differentiate me from you. So if you remove that "I", what's left? In other words, once I've detached from my ego, then what is "I"?
I've had moments of this detachment, and it feels like sheer bliss. There are no edges, no walls, no "I"; it feels "en-lightened". In these moments, it's as if the prison door has been opened, and I see my escape to freedom. However, there's still the business of getting out of the cage, but the fact that I know the prison door is open is enough for me to be slowly working my way toward freedom.
As Louis suggested, when some people have their first experience of egolessness and the accompanying bliss, they mistake the relative freedom for enlightenment. The prison door may be open, but they haven't left yet. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2006 : 5:23:03 PM
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Meg said:
As Louis suggested, when some people have their first experience of egolessness and the accompanying bliss, they mistake the relative freedom for enlightenment. The prison door may be open, but they haven't left yet.
Yes. After a transition/development, so many get very inflated because they imagine their state to be so much higher and exclusive than it is. It's a serious problem, and it is a recurring problem. Many imminent and world-known spiritual teachers fall into this same trap.
And there is more to the problem and it isn't just ego. There is a problem with the whole view of 'enlightenment' which tends to prevail in yogic circles. Enlightenment is not necessarily over-valued, but it is over-rated, in the sense that people conflate what is in fact really only competence in one domain (although it is a very large and significant domain) , with great competence or perfection in many domains.
Enlightened people are not necessarily very wise, are definitely not necessarily good philosophical or political leaders, and are not necessarily even good spiritual teachers. They are not necessarily any tremendous help to the world, and shouldn't necessarily be expected to be. They shouldn't be put up on pedestals, and all kinds of havoc follows from putting them up on pedestals. Not to put too fine a point on it, they may even have sh*t-for-brains, like The Great .... well, never mind. But think of the consequences when someone who has sh*t-for-brains is put up on a pedestal by a large number of people.
So I suppose what I am saying is that our view of enlightement can be inflated. So it's no wonder that people get inflated when they get a piece of it.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jul 06 2006 5:49:08 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2006 : 5:29:51 PM
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Thanks Kirtanman. I just randomly checked Adyashanti's site and pulled this out in about two minutes. Meg, it might apply nicely to the guy who wanted the younger woman he walked with know that he was enlightened:
Adyashanti said:
Do not think that enlightenment is going to make you special, it's not. If you feel special in any way, then enlightenment has not occurred. I meet a lot of people who think they are enlightened and awake simply because they have had a very moving spiritual experience. They wear their enlightenment on their sleeve like a badge of honor. They sit among friends and talk about how awake they are while sipping coffee at a cafe. The funny thing about enlightenment is that when it is authentic, there is no one to claim it. Enlightenment is very ordinary; it is nothing special. Rather than making you more special, it is going to make you less special. It plants you right in the center of a wonderful humility and innocence. Everyone else may or may not call you enlightened, but when you are enlightened the whole notion of enlightenment and someone who is enlightened is a big joke. I use the word enlightenment all the time; not to point you toward it but to point you beyond it. Do not get stuck in enlightenment. |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2006 : 6:31:04 PM
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Good quote, David.
Be well,
"This point of view came up in a conversation I had last week. I asked, "What is ego? Isn't it just a fancy word for 'I'"? So if the claim "I'm enlightened" means "I'm free from ego," wouldn't that be like saying, "I'm without an 'I'"? Would an enlightened person, in your view ever say "I" as in I think, I feel etc."
I don't know what it's like to be enlightened, sorry. All I know is that enlightened people don't have an ego, and they are still somehow able to say that they're enlightened.
-Scott |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2006 : 6:32:01 PM
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| wow! that's perfect. Thanks David! I may forward that link to my friend, just to see what he says about it. Thanks for that, Kirtanman. |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2006 : 9:44:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Please visit www.adyashanti.org, and click on the Teachings link.
Thanks. That is an interesting link. I was tuned in to his way of expressing “I” language. In the segment, Causeless Love, Adyashanti used the phrase “I think...” then he stepped back to a witness position saying, “to the mind it’s very baffling, how could I have this love with no cause?
http://www.adyashanti.org/index.php...listenonline
In the audio segment, “Causeless Love”
To say “the mind is baffled” is different from saying, “I’m baffled,” or “my mind is baffled.”
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2006 : 10:05:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Enlightenment is not necessarily over-valued, but it is over-rated, in the sense that people conflate what is in fact really only competence in one domain (although it is a very large and significant domain) , with great competence or perfection in many domains.
Thanks, David, for that discerning observation. |
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enlightenment??
