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Dharmandy
United Kingdom
7 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 05 2013 : 1:36:23 PM
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Hey all, I've been practicing tummo for a bit while reading the AYP material.
The main practice for tummo is to do as long as possible kumbhakas while holding mulabandha and letting your attention rest on the chakra below the navel. There are many other practices around this one, but they tend to focus on cultivating the chakra below the navel.
This is done to generate the fire that will travel up the spine and melt the white substance in the crown chakra that, as travels down passing thru the 4 chakras (eyebrown, throat, heart and navel) will generate the 4 types of blissess, the last of which brings in an insight into emptiness (the main goal).
I was wondering what is the difference between this approach and the AYP approach (in general, not practice specific)?
I know in AYP there is an emphasis on working with the 3rd eye chakra (as in Yoni Mudra), and I was wondering how could the long-time effecs differe from one approach to the other?
Thanks, looking forwards to your comments  |
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KundaliniTherapist
United Kingdom
26 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2013 : 5:00:36 PM
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Hi Dharmandy
I can not tell you exactly what the difference is between tummo and AYP as I have only practised the first. But I feel compelled to tell you to be very careful with the breath retention. This is powerful and can bring on a lot of negative symptoms that are extremely hard to correct.
There also authors who claim that the breath retention brings on a kind of false or artificial heat that is not the real thing. The very safest way is to simply visualise heat in the navel and do no muscle clenching and breath retention at all. In that way it is likely to take longer but you will at least not develop energy disease.
In any case, you should practice tummo only under the guidance from a knowledgeable teacher - it's potentially dangerous. Be careful!
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Dharmandy
United Kingdom
7 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2013 : 03:03:42 AM
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Hello KT, thanks for your answer!
I was taught Tummo by a Tibetan Lama, but I probably won't see him again in a long long time, so there isn't much of a chance to work under his guidance. I was taught some Trul Khor, that is meant to reduce possible side effects. I was also taught a visualization that I'm meant to do after all the retentions and exercises.
I have had plenty of heat coming up. At the beginning it was even uncomfortable, and I'd be almost naked and sweating like mad, practicing in my student room in Scotland (very cold!). Now the heat has turned into just not feeling cold at all when I'm practicing, I don't notice any actual heat.
Currently I'm considering switching to AYP, because I see a lack of structure in the Tummo practices. Tummo jumps right into the more advanced stuff, and I don't think I can really make most of it. Plus Tummo seems to be contained within AYP (the lesson in Yoni Mudra is pretty much it, with you attention on another point, as far as I know).
Thanks again for your suggestions. I'd be very happy to chat in skype about tummo if you're up to it, it'd be fun to compare what we were tought by our lamas etc.
Cheers |
Edited by - Dharmandy on Mar 06 2013 03:23:16 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2013 : 07:18:50 AM
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Hi Dharmandy,
Welcome to the forum.
Yes, AYP also uses khumbaka as a practice, combining it with yoni mudra and putting the attention at the third eye. It is an advanced practice though, so it is best to learn the practices from the beginning in the right order. Yoni Mudra Khumbaka in AYP involves Spinal Breathing Pranayama so this needs to be learned first. It also involves two mudras and three bandhas so there is a lot to learn before Yoni Mudra Khumbaka can be practiced fully. There is also a safety aspect as KT pointed out above, and that is all explained in the lessons preceding lesson 91 on Yoni Mudra Khumbaka. So that is another reason to start at the beginning an progress through in the order of the lessons.
If you are an advanced practitioner though- and it sounds like you are, then it should not take you long to progress through the basics to the point where you can practice khumbaka with safety. There is one more reason why it is best to start at the beginning with the AYP practices, and that is because it is best to develop a strong foundation in meditation whilst we are cultivating the body to a state of ecstasy. The ecstatic journey can be a bumpy road at times, and if we cultivate a strong foundation in silence and stillness (samadhi) then it is much easier to handle the highs and lows that accompany the ecstatic transformation.
As for the drops, I do not practice Tummo so I cannot say what they are with much clarity. In Yoga the kundalini energy (prana) rises up through the body and then also descends again into the heart space. Another substance which rises through the body is soma (transformed sexual fluids), and this trickles down as drops from the crown, ajna and bindu chakras again into the throat and heart.
Christi |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2013 : 08:48:25 AM
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Hi Dharmandy,
Tummo is normally only taught when one has reached the level of quiet or calm mind in Buddhism. Tummo is the same as Kundalini energy, but since there are very few issues/fears remaining with calm mind, it is more under conscious control (rather than subconscious as Kundalini). AYP starts working with the energy at a much "lower level" of clarity (more like Taoism) and uses it to help get "kundalini/tummo" flowing. AYP should blend well with what you have been doing as the process is very similar.
In your tummo practice, did you feel the "winds" or energy flowing?
Best wishes, Jeff |
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Dharmandy
United Kingdom
7 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2013 : 09:51:54 AM
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Hello Jeff and Christi, thanks for your replies.
@Jeff - No I haven't :( I have felt at times subtle thin lines of energy traveling up, or buzzing on the chest and some altered states while practicing Tummo, but I haven't yet had a clear experience of the winds flowing. |
Edited by - Dharmandy on Mar 06 2013 10:02:50 AM |
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Vimala
France
80 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2013 : 10:27:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dharmandy
I was wondering what is the difference between this approach and the AYP approach (in general, not practice specific)?
In my personal understanding, there are huge differences between the two systems. But the goal is the same.
Ecstatic conductivity, Union of bliss and emptiness, whole body orgasm ...are the same thing.
The heat in tumo is a preliminary result that gradually leads to ecstatic feelings.
Heat is a useful reward of meditation in the cold mountains of Tibet: notice that the navel chakra (traditionally, it isn't below the navel, but behind it) is in front of the spine.
That means: in tummo one works between intestines and spinal nerve. This is essential because you get heat from the gut. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2013 : 12:29:14 PM
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Hi Dharmandy,
The "winds" are a more powerful feeling of energy flow. Some traditions call it "rushing water", but it feels like flowing vibrations. I think that with what you currently experience with your tummo practice, it will be very similar with spinal breathing.
Best wishes, Jeff |
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Dharmandy
United Kingdom
7 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2013 : 3:03:05 PM
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Thanks again for your replies.
Jeff, I'd like to know your opinion. I'm considering changing to AYP beacuse it feels like it has more scaffolding around the general principles, whereas in Tummo you're pretty much left to do kumbhakas (with mulabandha of course) and then some trul khor movements.
As I said before to KT, I'm happy to skype if it makes it any easier for you to discuss things :)
Also for the Tummo people: were you taught to 'press down' with your belly/diaphragm instead of doing Uddiyana bandha? I was taught that way and I'm not sure how are they different in terms of effects. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2013 : 4:17:06 PM
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Hi Dharmandy,
Happy to discuss here (or feel free to PM/email for direct contact).
Regarding AYP vs. Tummo... It is really more of an apples vs. oranges discussion. Tummo on it's own is not really a balanced approach. Historically, it is only taught after one has realized quiet/calm mind. Quiet/calm mind is a very advanced stage in AYP terms. What do you do for basic meditation?
Jeff |
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Dharmandy
United Kingdom
7 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2013 : 4:51:09 PM
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I see. What exactly do you mean 'quite mind'? Is it Dzogchen or Mahamudra related?
I've been practicing Mahamudra Samatha for quite a while, resting in the natural state, in which everything is allowed to flow and be as it is.
I have also done a little bit of vipassana (Mahasi Sayadaw style) before but I find it a bit confusing.
Thanks! |
Edited by - Dharmandy on Mar 06 2013 5:05:23 PM |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2013 : 6:45:43 PM
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Some more perspective to the tummo-practice:
In kriya yoga there is also a technique called navi kriya or nabho kriya, which is essentially the same as tummo or vase-breathing+inner-fire. It is an advanced kriya technique which is practiced together with mantra-meditation, spinal breathing, mahamudra and yoni mudra. It directly deals with the samana current and has the main function to unite prana and apana which are directly adressed by spinal breathing/kriya pranayama.
The practical results of navi kriya/tummo as an addition to an existing practice routine of the other kriya elements here lead to the following results:
First day (initiation day by Gurunath, a kriya master): physical heat at the navel in the front and extreme godly joy explosions. Many layers of the mindsubstance were nullified completely, the body-mind could remain completely!! still for hours with ease, resting in joy-bliss, face smiling 24/7 :P
Some weeks into the addition of that practice resulted in new physical strength, more willpower and more bhakti and strength to practice more kriya pranayama and mahamudra. Nomind-phases extend to endless lengths.
Then the heroic intention to increase that practice (beyond the number given b Gurunath which is really small per session). Results start to get overboard, hefty ego-stuff comes up, this body-mind started to get veery active, veery intense and veery easily agressive. Bursts of anger start to come up, everything starts to get heaty. All people around start to do arrogant/ignorant things that increase the agression and anger of this body mind here to uknown levels. Deep layers of anger and agression that never seemed to exist become visible and start getting on the surface and make everyone agressive. Life situations start to escalate, people can't work together anymore, hate-mails and hate-communications start etc. After some weeks into this intensified practice of tummo/navi kriya firy agressive heat started to visibly! radiate out of the body and the cause of this (sofar unknown) anger and agression became visible!!
After the stoppage of that practice everythign calmed down within 2 days to easy and peaceful levels again =P Some weeks later a new start and the same result. Only after some more months with the recommended amount the practice does its job smoothly and nicely, otherwise the results were too extreme. The purification is extreme but inbetween an enormous unknown intense godly joy comes out, giving the hint to continue to clean up the third chakra a little more focusedly.
As it is just a part of the whole kriya techniques and an addition to more focusedly purify the third chakra, the same can be achieved without it but with spinal breathing aswell. And still spinal breathing does way more and is balanced and smooth while tummo alone is a desaster.
The practice of tummo which is one part of the yoga of Naropa, is famous in the tibetian areas and tantric buddhists who live in those cold regions because the side-effect of too much heat and the corresponding expressions of energy, vitality, happiness but aswell anger, agression and co. is balanced and not as problematic as in a city-life with lots of social interaction. I'm not aware of a single person who was successful with that technique alone while not being a monk or living in retreat mode. Surely there may be some.
Kriya yogis practice it as a booster practice but some skip it aswell and still reach the goal. Within AYP and its broad-range purifiers like DM and spinal breathing, the effects and results of tummo are more balancedly covered, still AYP utilizes some other kriya yogic elements like yoni mudra and chin pump and adress the navel area in another more dynamic technique aswell (with a great hint that it has strong effects :). But neither AYP nor kriya yoga build uppon a navel technique alone.
It is abviously possible to have success with tummo alone, as it is the main technique within the 6 yogas of Naropa and within lots of buddhist lineages, still to the experience here within a social lifestyle and the wish for balance, you may have better (more full spectrum) and smoother results with one of the other two systems (there are more full spectrum systems aswell :)
In the end it must work and this means it can be practiced in daily life without problems and with good results. And trying out is the only way :)
Happy practicing =) |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2013 : 9:03:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dharmandy
I see. What exactly do you mean 'quite mind'? Is it Dzogchen or Mahamudra related?
I've been practicing Mahamudra Samatha for quite a while, resting in the natural state, in which everything is allowed to flow and be as it is.
I have also done a little bit of vipassana (Mahasi Sayadaw style) before but I find it a bit confusing.
Thanks!
As Holy points out, modern concepts of Tummo originate from Naropa (6 yogas) and it forms the platform for the completions stage practices of Buddhism. Naropa taught that one needed to have completed semde (quiet mind) before one should start the energy practices of tummo. A quiet mind means that one is past the point of witnessing thoughts and that the mind is basically quiet with limited thoughts "arising". So, past things like experiencing "anger" or any subconscious reaction/thought. Tummo is the same as Kundalini, so with a quiet mind (minimal subconscious fears), there is no danger of things like kundalini psychosis/issues.
Resting in the natural state is an excellent meditation. Is your mind basically quiet (few thoughts arising), when meditating? Or, are you watching thoughts and sometimes "following/caught up in" them?
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Dharmandy
United Kingdom
7 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2013 : 03:20:38 AM
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Thanks for the great answers! This forum rocks.
The level of aggressiveness, sexual desire and general emotional response increased for a few weeks. Then I lost track and I don't know whats the normal level and what is increased by energy practice.
It looks like plenty of people have been taught tummo, which is great. I thought it was very rare to find a teacher who would teach it to you. How did you find your teachers and who are they (may I ask)? I'm curious to know your story!
Jeff, when I'm sitting in meditation I do get caught up in thoughts. Half way through the sitting I get more momentum and that happens a lot less, thoughts are more like projected on a screen in front of me and I don't need to 'think' them. Sometimes there's no thought at all (or it is very subtle) and I'm just resting in this black wide space (not for long tho!).
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KundaliniTherapist
United Kingdom
26 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2013 : 05:12:14 AM
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Hi Holy and Dharmandy
you both mention tummo as a stand-alone practice and whether that will work out well or not.
In Tibetan Buddhism tummo is NEVER taught as a stand-alone practice and if it were it would be highly irresponsible and even frivolous.
Holy, thank you for giving this detailed account how tummo(-kind) practices brought on all this anger and aggression. I have seen similar effects in some people who practiced tummo.
In the Tibetan Buddhism system this anger should be pre-empted and counter-acted by a deep rooted practice of loving-kindness, which should have preceded the tummo practice for many years. If we are steeped in loving kindness then rushes of anger will more easily be perceived as one's own problem rather projected out as 'other peoples' stupidity)
Also, other preliminary practices are practices in humility (contemplation of our faults in dorje semper practice) devotion to a higher power (in form of the guru or/and a deity) and calm-abiding (witness consciousness).
Tummo should only be practised with the sole aim of being of more benefit for others (which in itself will reduce anger) and it's purpose is the purification of our heart and mind so that we can unite with the deity of our choice.
Tummo or any other kundalini practice (to me they all look pretty similar: they all have in common that energy from the abdomen rises up) are meant to open up our unconscious mind so that we can free ourselves from the negative tendencies accumulated over many life-times and which are usually largely unconscious. As long as these negativities are unconscious they cannot be dealt with, so kundalini practice opens them up and it is this opening that leads to all the uncomfortable side-effects in these practices.
On the way, these practices also give us plenty of bliss so that we stay motivated.
The last step in Tibetan Buddhism is to unite with the deity of our devotion and it is this union that is seen as enlightenment once it is more complete. In this respect all previous practices including the tummo are preliminary. It is also said that people with great devotion can reach enlightenment much faster - even without any kundalini practices at all. Their devotion 'does all the work'.
How all this compares to the AYP practice I am not completely sure as I am not an expert in AYP. I am sure others can comment on that in more detail.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2013 : 06:39:31 AM
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Hi KT and all,
quote:
How all this compares to the AYP practice I am not completely sure as I am not an expert in AYP. I am sure others can comment on that in more detail.
In AYP, inner silence and the witness are cultivated alongside energy practices. The witness is cultivated using meditation and also self-inquiry practice. It is not a requirement though to have reached a permanent abiding in/as the witness before beginning energy practices such as pranayama or kriyas. The idea being that cultivating the two hand in hand will be sufficient in most cases to produce a stable journey towards enlightenment.
The only practice in AYP for which some degree of inner silence is a pre-requisite is samyama, and this is simply because without the presence of the witness, it doesn't have much effect. In practice, some more direct forms of self-inquiry practice also require some degree of silence/ witness in order to be effective so in reality it is also a pre-requisite there too.
We don't do deliberate loving-kindness practices, love is cultivated at a higher stage in the path through the merging of ecstasy and bliss and is more a by-product than a deliberate practice. Devotion is also a strong aspect of AYP.
So some differences, and lots of similarities.
Christi
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2013 : 08:34:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dharmandy
Jeff, when I'm sitting in meditation I do get caught up in thoughts. Half way through the sitting I get more momentum and that happens a lot less, thoughts are more like projected on a screen in front of me and I don't need to 'think' them. Sometimes there's no thought at all (or it is very subtle) and I'm just resting in this black wide space (not for long tho!).
Hi Dharmandy,
It sounds like you are making good progress in your meditation. But, as KT describes in Buddhist preliminary practices, it sounds like your teacher started you with tummo earlier than is classically taught.
I would suggest that you give spinal breathing a try as a replacement for your tummo practice. It is less focused than tummo and given your meditation description, that may be helpful. Try it for a few weeks and see if it resonates with you.
On meditation... One of the advantages of a mantra based system is that it can help with the quieting down part that you describe in the first part of your meditation. But, since you are already watching and then quiet for half of the session, it sounds pretty stable. Even a few seconds of "residing" is impressive. As I am sure you know, the "goal" of meditation is to expand that residing to daily life.
Best wishes, Jeff
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Dharmandy
United Kingdom
7 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2013 : 03:56:23 AM
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Hello, thanks for your suggestions and posts.
I will give the AYP approach a good try!
Thanks |
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boris
Norway
68 Posts |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2013 : 06:24:55 AM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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RSS
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2015 : 06:13:38 AM
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| I stumbled upon this old thread while looking for info on Tummo. Boris posted a link to a pdf that contained Tummo instructions that was written/compiled by someone named Loco Austriaco. In the pdf he mentioned that additional info would be forthcoming but I have not found any yet. Does anyone know of any other articles or post by this guy or how to get in touch with him? Thanks |
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Tummo - Navel chakra approach
