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Maximus
India
187 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 21 2006 : 12:33:42 AM
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Hi
I have a strong reason why I don't want to practise yoga. I have never been able to get over this question.
The ultimate goal of yoga they say is the merging of the consciousness into the universal consciousness. And then we cease to exist? Is this not 'suicide' of the soul? What on earth motivates all those people to dissolve themselves and never exist anymore? What is the good thing they see in breaking the chain of reincarnatiions? Yoga seems to correctly answer the question 'Who am I?' by saying that we are manifestations of "the one", but I don't see it answer the question "Why we exist as seperate" in the first place. Without answering that question yoga just asks people to merge with the one thing.
I want to remain a human being and be born again and again as a human being and I really have no desire to commit soul suicide.
I believe there is a good reason why species remain and that is to live life fully, and there is no point if all species become extinct and merge with the one. Everyone understands that before the big bang this was the case and there is no doubt that we all came from the one. But that does not mean we must go back into it simply because there is no reason to do so. |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2006 : 02:40:58 AM
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| That seems like a very valid question to me. All that I can say is that in my many years of practice that I have never felt that my individuality or snese of self has ever been damaged or diminished. I can say that I don't take my personal melodrama as seriously. In my opinion trying to destroy the ego is an exercise in futility and actually an extreme act of ego control. What I would suggest is more likely is that with yoga the ego is allowed to relax and not feel the need to retain its grip on us so much. the activity that generates the sense of seperate self get a break and rests but is not destroyed, This allowing the ego to rest releases a great deal of energy that has been involved in maintaining this grip and that brings great joy. Its not an act of aggression against the self but more a process of recognising our true nature |
Edited by - Victor on Jun 21 2006 02:42:21 AM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2006 : 08:29:10 AM
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Hi Maximus
quote:
I want to remain a human being and be born again and again as a human being and I really have no desire to commit soul suicide.
For me - Yoga brings me in deeper contact with the depth in me. Through Yoga I come to know - that I am more than my body; my mind. The way I have understood it, the soul is immortal. It cannot be extinguished. We are human beings. We are both - not either or. It is possible, through Yoga, to live a fuller life right here. Right now. It is possible to perceive more beauty, more love, radiance, fullness, lushness - right here in this body. Through these eyes, ears - this heart. In this incarnation. It is such an unbelievable gift.
Victor beautifully describes (in his post above) some of the implications of Yoga practises in our lives.
Maximus wrote:
quote:
I believe there is a good reason why species remain and that is to live life fully, and there is no point if all species become extinct and merge with the one
What if you could have your cake and eat it too? 
What if it is possible to live life fully (right here, right now) and be in merger with the one?
Have you considered it?
Then you could still be a species (sort of like a surface layer of paint) and at the same time live in full connection with that which is life itself.
I think your question is great, Maximus. It deserves your own answers. Yoga is a practise that connects you with your own wisdom. The most important thing is that you do indeed live fully. Not the theories we tell about life. Nothing - I repeat, nothing - has done more for me when it comes to living fully, than meditation. It is priceless.
I wish you all the best!
May all your Nows be Here |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2006 : 08:40:58 AM
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I forgot to welcome you to the forum, Maximus - I was so "caught" by your question that I missed the fact that this was your first post 
You are heartly welcome, and I hope to see you here again soon.
May all your Nows be Here |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2006 : 10:17:12 AM
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Welcome to the forum Maximus!
Let me answer your question from another angle.
Maximus asked:
The ultimate goal of yoga they say is the merging of the consciousness into the universal consciousness. And then we cease to exist? Is this not 'suicide' of the soul? What on earth motivates all those people to dissolve themselves and never exist anymore?
These are actually just language-problems. We don't cease to exist as a result of yoga. We just ultimately cease to experience ourselves as separate. Since we never were separate anyway, we are only coming in tune with what is real and true. We are throwing away illusions.
One analogy sometimes used is waves on the ocean. The waves think they are separate things, and fear dissolution in the ocean. Suppose you 'were' the ocean (which in fact you are), and you let waves appear on your surface. At some point, you let one of them call itself 'Maximus' and set it up to fear dissolution. It says, 'If I know myself as the ocean, Maximus will cease to exist'.
But from your point of view as the ocean, you say, 'Max, in a way that is true and in a way that is false. I am the ocean; I know myself; all creatures that ever were (including you, Max) are just a part of me, temporarily believing themselves to be other.'
Ultimately no-one comes back to the ocean unless called by it. You either hear the call of the ocean or you do not. If you hear it, and your time is right, you will decisively break the obstacles to your return. Perhaps your mistaken concept of yoga was one obstacle to your return; perhaps you have broken it here.
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Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2006 : 10:43:03 AM
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Hi David
Your response does not take away my fear of yoga. You say
"But from your point of view as the ocean, you say, 'Max, in a way that is true and in a way that is false. I am the ocean; I know myself; all creatures that ever were (including you, Max) are just a part of me, temporarily believing themselves to be other.'"
Why should the seperateness be temporary? Why not be seperate eternally? What's wrong with that choice? Katrine's reply seems somewhat convincing to me because he says I can still maintain my identity while at the same realizing that I'm one with the consciousness. But your reply seems to say that once I realize that I'm actually just a wave of the ocean I will be absorbed into the ocean. So I won't be an individual soul, and won't be reborn into earth as a species, instead float in the universe as consciousness. This is a very fearful thought to me and I don't want this.
Also your reply seems to imply that even the number of souls in the world is not constant because waves can come and go, merge into one, split into two. This is even more frightening to me.
Do you think there is something wrong in my understanding? |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2006 : 11:47:10 AM
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Why should the seperateness be temporary? Why not be seperate eternally? What's wrong with that choice?
Again it depends on what 'separateness' means.
You cannot be separate eternally, and you have no choice. However, you can choose to pretend you have, and forget you are pretending (this is called denial). The second-oldest profession will cater to your every wish here. Enter the world of religions.
But if you are worrying about it, you are probably mixing perspectives and thinking too much. Let me turn the question around:
If a child was told 'some day soon the world is going to take you away from your Mummy and Daddy and you are going to have to live without them'. This is true for all children. However, if you put it that way, you would provoke terror in the children. How would you comfort this child if someone said that to them?
Why does it sound terrifying to the child? Why is it not terrifying in practice?
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jun 21 2006 11:51:42 AM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2006 : 12:15:12 PM
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Hi Maximus, welcome to the forum.
You seem to me to be expressing a fear of Death, of one kind or another. The question of what is going to happen to me when I physically die has been a question used by all the great religions to spur on the masses to greater spiritual awareness.
Whether we cease to exist after physical death or whether we reincarnate as another human, animal, alien on a different planet or whatever, are not that important to me.
Having said that I do have a stong preference for reincarnating to another human.
To me the core of Yoga and also Buddhism is about arriving in the here and now. Not just in this instant, an instant is a portion of Time, beyond time into the now. No past, no future - just in a state of "being".
This itself is also a death, the death of dualism.
The dualism can be expressed in terms of David's wave analogy by the fact that the wave Maximus is travelling through time and thus has a form. In one lifetime the wave remains intact and then on death it could run onto a beach and return to the ocean, to then become another wave.
When Maximus the wave practices Deep Meditation and expreiences some stillness during his lifetime as a wave, it is possible that he will come to the realisation that he is water and the ocean is also water. This realisation does not prevent him from also being a wave.
The fear you express seems to be a fear of this realisation, because for a start to realise this we have to surrender everything, become naked to ourselves, lay our fears bear.
And why would we bother going to all that trouble? Like a true Irishman, I will answer a question with another question - Why have you come onto this forum, i.e. what are your spiritual desires? 
Perhaps this is what you really want but you see and feel your fear of it and this is stopping you. This is a good start, and you might ask yourself why are you afraid of seeing beyond those fears. The greatest fear in you could be the death of those very fears (some people call it the ego)
The fears might seem insurmountable at this time but through the AYP practices they fall away in a gradual self-paced way that is managable.
Hope this helps
Louis the non-expert
P.S. David, sorry for jumping onto your wave |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2006 : 12:35:05 PM
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Louis said:
P.S. David, sorry for jumping onto your wave
No problem. It's probably helpful. I hope Maximus still tries to answer my question.
Q. Why do you Irishmen always answer questions with questions?
A. Why wouldn't we?
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2006 : 12:36:34 PM
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Welcome Maximus.
OMG what an awesome question. Thanks for bringing it up. I have often wondered what keeps people away from getting spiritual.. why would someone not want this peace I feel.. why would someone want to cling on the this world, that can give you nothing but misery.. all the joys are so short lived.. why would you not want freedom from this constant cycle of birth and death.. your questions have helped me understand this.
Louis, David, Katrine, Victor.. I am so impressed with all your answers. I am going to have to print this thread and keep these answers handy.. Gwash! I love the way you guys write.. all you say makes perfect sense.. but I could never have put them into such beautiful words.. so clear.. like you know exactly what you are talking about..
Thanks all. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2006 : 3:07:07 PM
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What we discover in yoga is what's true, has always been true, and will always be true. Your separateness is an illusion. Always has been, Always will be.
You don't go anywhere in yoga. You don't change into anything different. You don't lose anything but your illusions. And even they are not "lost" so much as detached from.
The practice of yoga is intended to clear mud off your windows. The mud keeps us from experiencing the pure beauty and love and connectedness of it all. But you can still smoke a joint, make a sardonic remark, or wear clothes made from unnatural fibers. No problem.
For more (though there's nothing more to say....just different ways of expressing it), I recommend this book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0954779207 |
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Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2006 : 03:31:20 AM
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This is big subject and it is all too overwhelming to me.
David asked "If a child was told 'some day soon the world is going to take you away from your Mummy and Daddy and you are going to have to live without them'. This is true for all children. However, if you put it that way, you would provoke terror in the children. How would you comfort this child if someone said that to them?
Why does it sound terrifying to the child? Why is it not terrifying in practice?"
Let me answer it the way I see death. When I was a child, when I came to know that all people one day die, I was very afraid of losing my mother. I remember somedays checking my mom's nostrils for breath when she was asleeep. I thought I will be dead with grief if my mom died.
Now when I'm an adult I still am afraid to think that one day my mom will die but try to convince myself that that won't be the ultimate end for her, because she will only be dead in body and reincarnate somewhere else. She can realize her unfulfilled desires of this life in her next life.
Same argument goes for fear about my own death.
Now when I see all these yogis trying desparately to end the cycle of reincarnations it blows the hell out of me. To be precise there are 2 fears for me that I recognize.
1. Fear of dissolving and becoming nothing.
People in this forum have tried their best and say that I will become something 'bigger' but not dissolve into nothing.
2. Fear of losing identity.
I don't want to lose idenity. My soul merging with another yogi's soul or 100 other's souls? Then I won't be I. My grey matter is not evolved to even understand that a desire for such a thing is possible. If karma is what that gives seperate identity then I would love to maintain a karmic debt eternally so that I remain myself with my debt.
Having said that, I was somewhat consoled to find by googling that an Indian saint called Madhvacharya in the 13th century advocated the theory of Dualism which means that we are all seperate entities, separate from god, and separate from each other and there is an unbridgable gap beteween any 2 entities. Even while unioning with God he said we retain our individuality. He seemed to have won in arguments other saints of his time who preached Monoism.
Enough for now. Have a great weekend. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2006 : 09:51:12 AM
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Actually Maximus, (this is one of the limits of the written word) my point was lost because I was misunderstood.
I said that one day life will take you away from your parents. Meaning that you will live separately from them (true it is not strictly so for everyone, but for nearly everyone). So I was not talking about death but just making your own way in life.
And the question was, why is this terrifying for a child? And how would you comfort such a child?
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2006 : 10:49:53 AM
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Maximus,
Yoga is the settling of the mind, which means that you just lose your false views. You can still think, and you are still yourself. You just know the truth. However, if this scares you maybe you should just live your life. Read about other things...because maybe yoga isn't for everyone. Personally, I am guided to it because of my passion for understanding. If you're guided away from it, maybe you should follow that inner guide.
-Scott |
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LittleDragon
29 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2006 : 12:52:51 AM
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Maximus,
Think of the separateness as the play of the One. Its ok to participate in that play. But I think its even better if we can see and appreciate the One that makes up all the parts.
When you read of traditional Yoga or Buddisism there does seem to be a nilistic attitude. But I think that comes from the harsher "climes and times" of the past when people might have wanted to escape the difficulties of life. I don't see that attitude here.
I think losing the identity of "you" that you speak of is probabaly your ego. But that is just the "real You" identifing with very minor and temporary things and situations, like your job, your body, your emotions and thoughts. I have only truly gotten away from that point once but I wish I was there permanently. It is a place of unlimited Freedom, Power, AND Restraint. I think you can maintain your "separateness" if you want and still realize your conection to the One and to each and all of the Many that it manifests as.
That probaly doesn't qualify as "full enlightenment", but that's ok too.
Find a practice that suits you.
Do not fear. All is well.
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Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2006 : 03:23:05 AM
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Once I asked a similar question to Yogani and this was his reply:
The short answer is that there are an unlimited number of forming souls coming up through matter, all which have to go through the same process we are. It is a continuum of pure bliss consciousness evolving toward diverse individuation and then back to unity in self realization.
This reply unfortunately suggests that we will dissolve into consciousness like a water bubble breaks but I like LittleDragon's reply that "you can maintain your "separateness" if you want and still realize your conection to the One and to each and all of the Many that it manifests as" |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2006 : 11:58:47 AM
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Hi Maximus
I don't see that any realized beings are unhappy with their choice to merge. On the contrary, they mostly appear to be in a constant blissful state. That would indicate to me that the trade-off is a good one.
Peace, alan |
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Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Jul 04 2006 : 01:58:14 AM
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| If Yoga makes us realize that eternity is now and bliss in every moment, then why do realized beings choose to merge to attain constant bliss? If they can indeed get the bliss while being human, then why not choose to take birth again and again? |
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - Jul 04 2006 : 07:37:43 AM
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Hi Maximus,
Why stand at the edge of shallow water and ask "Why do they swim?" "Is the water freezing?", "Will I drown while walking the water?", "Will the water dissolve my face?". You cannot know the water till you step into it. The water cannot suck you in. It is shallow water that you can wade in and wade out of. Whether you want to tread deeper waters or not is your choice. You cannot know what you will feel in the water till you step into it. What others feel is only what others feel. Fear can be an impetus... for fear has within it the seed to erase itself. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 04 2006 : 09:54:33 AM
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Don't worry; you are never forced to give up your individualness, or your true self. This is a choice people make, not an obligation, or something they get "sucked into".
You can choose to be reincarnated as long as you want.
There is much dissent on this, but I believe that the qualities that make you an individual do persist, even if one chooses to return to the universal.
I believe that it is in fact those qualities that prompted God to create other entities seemingly separate from himself. He wants all of our different viewpoints to be as diverse as possible to add to the tapestry of consciousness.
So while many (or maybe most) people, yogis and other religions too, will paint the picture of everything we are doing on earth being destroyed in the end as it has no value, I believe the opposite.
I believe all God has created is perfect, has incredible value, and all that value will be ultimately saved.
Having said that, there comes a time in yoga when you feel as if you are losing your "self", because you realize that you are not really what you thought you were.
Then you break through a barrier and realize you are much better than you originally thought!
It's hard to talk about these things because words belong mostly to a part of the mind that deals with everyday things; making money, arguing with people, household chores. These words can only allude to the incredible world that is out there through yoga, and there is a lot of misunderstanding especially for a beginner.
You see people in advanced practices wanting to surrender themselves to the infinite, and you don't want to be like that. But I see that those people are still individuals with desires. They are like surfers standing on the beach, looking at huge storm waves, wanting to catch the biggest one, and feel the huge rush of being at one with that incredible power.
The essence of being who you are is being different from other people. So don't be afraid you will somehow be the same as other yogis, wanting to dissolve in the infinite.
Nothing in Yoga will change you and make you like the others. It only helps you to realize who you really are.
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Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2006 : 06:03:40 AM
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| I cannot agree with you more Etherfish. I too believe that there is good reason why God's creation exists and individuization exists. This is what I wrote in my opening post. I'm happy when you say it is not an obligation not be remain an individual. |
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Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2007 : 07:24:30 AM
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| I started this post in the middle of last year when I had just started AYP style meditation. Now I believe I have progressed a bit spiritually and willing to surrender more to life instead of resisting. But I still have one big question unresolved. I like it when Yogani says enlightenment is a continuous journey. But I feel sick when I read too many people saying they want to end the cycle of births and deaths (You can see Shanti has expressed the same desire in this thread above) . Many religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism seem to talk about ending the cycle of reincarnations. It is intuitively understandable that attachment to material things causes rebirth but what is not understandable is that attachment is the only thing that causes rebirth. Is is not an ego thing to manipulate the nature of existence, and trying to escape from reality? And it is never clear to me what these people intend to do once they do end the cycle. From what I understand, duties don't cease to exist even after enlightenment, only they are broadened for the goodness of all. I can't think of any reason other than selfish reasons of escaping from everyday life's struggels when somebody wants to end the cycle. When I google for "cycle of births and deaths" I get so many hits, but when I put an additional filter "why end" I get no results. Why nobody on earth seems to question this ending the cycle? |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2007 : 09:26:55 AM
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Namaste Maximus:
Here's yet another alternative perspective for you to consider.
Perhaps there really is no cycle of reincarnations to worry about ending or continuing...in any state of consciousness. What then? How would that change the equation? Maybe the Budweiser beer folks are correct in their slogan..."You only go around once, so you gotta grab for all the gusto you can get." This yoga's for you, Bud!
In any event, it feels to me as if anything which improves the quality of physical, mental, and spiritual life in each Present Moment...right here and right now...is also logically likely to insure at least the same quality of life hereafter...however that may turn out to be!
I'm sure we'll find out soon enough, and in the meantime I find my Yoga Sadhana practices to be some of the best tools in my personal toolbox for acquiring and maintaining a high quality of life on every level of Being. Waste not...want not, don't ya know? 
Hari OM!
Doc |
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Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2007 : 05:59:20 AM
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| Doc I fully agree with your point about living in the present moment. But it doesn't answer my question. You say "Perhaps there really is no cycle of reincarnations to worry about ending or continuing...in any state of consciousness". But so many people believe that the cycle exists and it may well be a fact. I believe it exists as well. My question is why do people and religions try to end it? And to what end? |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2007 : 09:56:44 AM
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Maximus:
My point is...what difference does it make? Why do you remain attached to having answers that you couldn't possibly verify in any event?  Wouldn't your time and energy be more productively directed into a regular Sadhana practice? 
It is imminently more probable, IMO, that everything you wish or need to know for your Self-Realization will come to you via Deep Meditation and Contemplative Prayer practices, not through intellectual analysis and philosophical conjecture.
Hari OM!
Doc |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2007 : 10:44:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Maximus
But so many people believe that the cycle exists and it may well be a fact. I believe it exists as well. My question is why do people and religions try to end it? And to what end?
Hi Maximus,
I think some reasons why people may try to end the cycle of births and deaths could be:
* they may see the earthly life as a more limited form of existence than what they can enjoy if they can transcend it
* to become fully united with God
* they may feel that they can serve life better after having transcended it
* they may see life in a physical body as a learning experience, and, when mastered, they want to go on to the next step of evolution, which is living independent of a physical body
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