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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 20 2006 : 12:47:30 PM
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I wasn't going to write this, but now I need some advice pretty quickly from those of you who are experienced in kechari. After reading Yogani's post here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....whichpage=5, I realized that I've been all turned around in my nasal passage, and my tongue, which has been in stage 2 for almost 3 months, has been trying to inch its way up some other, boney structure opposite the nasal pharynx. I did a good clipping on Sunday, figured out where my tongue was supposed to be, and it slid up there very naturally. Since I've been clipping heartily for 6 months or so, I have good length and am able to touch the nasal septum, almost far enough to close off one nostril at a time. It felt like 'home' to me, and all the practices were enhanced. Spinaling breathing in particular has taken on new meaning, and ajna sensitvity is increased considerably. Naturally, since it feels so good, I've been in kechari during my meditation and other practices, and here and there throughout the day.
The trouble began yest. afternoon, when I noticed that the soles of my feet were hot. It didn't bother me, but by the time I went to bed they were REALLY hot. During the night I was uncomfortable, and energy was running in a haphazard kind of way throughout my body. It wasn't a Gopi Krishna kind of thing where I was reeling in pain, but still it was uncomfortable -- enough to prevent me from sleeping. I've never had these symptoms before, so clearly it was kechari. How do I self-pace this?? I don't want to stop it, as it's brought my practices to a new level. This morning the heat had subsided a bit, and the energy had smoothed out to a low buzz. I pranayama'd and meditated as usual, without kechari, and the heat started again in my feet. Now I'm not sure what to do.
Please help - this is unnerving. |
Edited by - Manipura on Jun 20 2006 1:43:29 PM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2006 : 2:35:57 PM
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Hi Meg:
First, congratulations on your breakthough -- pushing forward to the septum/secret spot. Second, self-pace! You will have this wonderful tool for the rest of your life, and the thing to do now is not run off the road with it. That means easing into it timewise over weeks and months. I know it is a temptation to go all out, but there is only so much energy we can handle at any given time. And don't forget, there can be a delay in the effects, so it is good to step carefully. Even when well-established in advanced stages of kechari, there will be times for backing off. It goes with the territory. The sooner we can nip an overload, the smoother our path will be. As mentioned in the lessons, it is a lot like driving a car.
I suggest you slow down on kechari for as long as necessary and apply the methods of grounding (lesson 69) to spread out the newly circulating energy. As mundane as it sounds, walking, getting out and doing physical things, etc. will help. So can taking a heavier diet for a time until the energy spreads out. The heat is also possibly a call for some attention to diet from an ayurvedic stand point -- pitta pacifying. Here's the food chart: http://www.aypsite.org/ayurveda-diets.html
For the rest, let go of short term expectations and pretend you are in a rocket car that is going a bit too fast at the moment. Time to ease off the accelerator. That could mean slowing down on spinal breathing and meditation for a while as well. All of these practices become more powerful by the addition of a new one like kechari -- the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. So, the more advanced we become with the integration of our practices, the more power each practice will have, and the greater the importance of self-pacing. Less is very often more in a highly integrated practice routine.
It will be okay. You are not off the cliff or anything. Just needing to adjust to the new dynamic of practice and experience you have recently entered. It's good stuff. One small step for a woman -- and another a giant leap for humankind!
Congratulations to Vicki too. 
I'm sure others will chime in here...
The guru is in you.
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2006 : 3:01:03 PM
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| Thanks so much for the advice, Yogani. I'm still hot, all over my body, but it's not frying me or anything. The last thing I want to do right now is back off from any of the practices, but I see that I have no choice. I'll check out the ayurvedic diet, which until now has never interested me. thanks again. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2006 : 3:41:50 PM
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Congratulations Meg! I don't really know how your Kechari was going wrong (I don't know what the bony structure 'opposite' the nasal septum is or means) but the important thing is that it is going right now.
When I first started with Stage 2 Kechari I certainly had to ease into it quite slowly also. But take your time -- kechari is not going anywhere. In fact, I've been in stage 2 for almost a year now and I'm still holding back. My tongue is plenty long for stage 3, but I'm usually keeping it down in stage 2.
And there are other ways I am holding back. For example, for several years I did kechari stage 1 maybe for several hours a day. Now that I am in stage 2, I'm only doing it for about 20 minutes a day for now. That's what my self-pacing says.
I'm a wiser yogi now than I was when I began this. When I was younger I might well have driven off the rails with this tool if I got my hands on it.
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2006 : 4:12:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
When I was younger I might well have driven off the rails with this tool if I got my hands on it.
yes, that's what I've done - derailed - but haven't crashed, fortunately. This has been deeply humbling, to say the least. Thanks so much, David. It's so good to have the support and knowledge of you guys in this, and Shanti has been helping me behind the scenes. Honestly, I didn't realize that so much was happening in my body, and so this has been a big eye-opener for me.  |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2006 : 01:30:23 AM
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Well Meg,
I would say that Yogani expressed very clearly much of what I was going to say in this case. I also believe that you were probably at the stage that David was in before he moved the tongue forward and enetered the nasal passages. It should balance out with time and self paced practice. This is also an exciting development to me because we are now at a stage where we have a number of practitioners here actually doing kechari rather than simply focusing on how to achieve it. There has been much talk of snipping and stretching etc. but that is really the starting point of a very long journey that we are now able to share with each other.
For me at this time I would say that my practice of AYP with kechari is becoming very deep and challanging in some ways but that the *experience* of kechari while not overwhelming me is certainly a unique one that I have not experienced elsewhere. In my case it seems to initiate an internalization of attention combined with an increased pranic energy flow. I become very aware of any blocks or restrictions in my nervous system but at the same time can become much more still in body as well as experience deep releases. This internalization also can cause a bit of sensitivity to outside irritations and a startle response that can be a challange to handle sometimes so I have become quite careful where and when I practice. also have become more sensitive to body position and finding that my siddhasana has become much more internally refined due to frequent adjustment as the sensations are more internal and concerned with energy flow than esthetics. Haven't had any excessive heat symptoms but it is summer and you do live in a particularly hot area this time of year. perhaps cool foot soaks might help to relieve discomfort. I would suggest really being attentive to your comfort in your seat keeping your legs loose and arms relaxed and not worrying that kechari will do you harm but just explore your sensations and be quick to adjust to any discomfort. oh, and please keep us updated of course! |
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breathe
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2006 : 3:38:22 PM
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Hi Everyone,
This is my first post. I found AYP about a month ago and plunged right in. I am loving it. One thing I am working on is Kechari. I have snipped about 4 or 5 times. After about 2 snips I had a pretty good breakthrough and was able (with the help of my fingers) to get beyond the soft pallet and leave it there for some time. It is quite comfortable. The sensitivity is dying down. I do have a couple of questions though. My tongue feels like it is flailing in outer space and I am wondering how it should feel as I start reaching for the sweet spot. Should the tongue feel like it is curling back a bit or leaning forward toward the nose a bit. It seems like there is still quite a distance until I run into something solid. Which brings me to the other question. Afer the snips I have taken there is not too much tendon left to snip. This last time in order to find any at all I had to go into stage 2 Kechari. Then some ridge was brought up, but when I cut it seems like it is mostly skin that I am getting. There is a bit of blood and some sharp pain. How do you actually find more solid tendon to snip without getting all that skin. Any thoughts on all this would be great. I am really enjoying reading through all the posts. Thanks, Tom |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2006 : 4:22:15 PM
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Hi Tom. Good to hear from you!
Kechari stage 2 is definitely a leaning forward with the tongue, once behind the soft palate. As the tongue goes forward, the soft palate folds down, with a weird stretching sensation the first few times, and then the septum/secret spot is found. In my case this was automatic when I slipped into kechari many years ago. What we are finding more recently is that sometimes it takes a conscious movement of the tongue forward above the soft palate to open it up and find the secret spot. I didn't know it was that secret!
As for snipping, David and others can give you the low-down on the alternatives. You can also find a lot by doing a search on "kechari" or "snip" or "talavya" in these forums. It can be as simple as waiting for the tendon to work its way to the surface again over several weeks or months. For those who are aggressive, there are a variety of other ways, and we have some practitioners here who have been very resourceful with that, while at the same time observing the precautions necessary to keep it as safe as possible.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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breathe
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2006 : 4:59:46 PM
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Thanks Yogani,
That is helpful. I have been trying to pull the tongue back and strech it up. It has been a bit of a strain. The tongue seems to naturally want to kind of lay down on top of the soft palate. So I will allow that to happen and simply stretch in that same general forward direction. Perhaps it is not as far off as I thought. Regarding the snippng. I have read most of the posts I think. It may be I just need to wait a bit until the tendon comes to the surface again. Cutting right now seems just a little too close to blood vessels. Have you seen/heard of people clearing out allergies with these practices. Every June I suffer tremendously from Rocky Mountain Pine pollen, though this year seems a little better than usual. I am not sure if this is the practice or it is just a light year so far. Seems a little soon to be having a dramatic result like that, but I guess you never know. Thanks again for the input. Tom |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2006 : 7:28:07 PM
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Hi Tom - Welcome to the forum. I think I know what you mean when you say that your tongue feels like it's flailing in outer space when it's up and behind the soft palate. A similar thing was happening to me, until I figured out that the tongue should be easily resting on the soft palate, with the underside of the tongue touching the palate, and the topside touching nothing. Eventually the tip will start finding things to touch further up the passasge, but at first it's just groping around. What I've found is that the simple resting of the tongue on the soft palate, even when it's not very far up the passage, is a very powerful mudra. I'm sure it gets even better as you go further up, but it's a mistake (IMO) to rush up there, thinking that that's where all the 'juice' is. Also, as Yogani says above, the delay in effects are deceptive, so even tho it may feel like not much is happening at the moment, you may feel it big-time in a day or 2. Everyone's nervous system is different, but these have been my experiences. Plz keep me posted on your experiences as you progress - dramatic or mundane - b'c we seem to be at about the same place with kechari mudra.
ps - my feet are still hot.  It's not the weather, Victor. :) |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2006 : 07:13:47 AM
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Hi Tom:
The balancing effects of yoga are well known, and can help with allergies, and all sorts of other health issues. The effects can come from one practice, or a combination. In our case we are working with an integration of practices, so it may be hard to tell what is doing what unless we are taking it slow in adding things on -- self-pacing. Not that it matters for positive effects. We'll take them, right? On symptoms of energy overload it is a different matter. We'd like to know what is triggering an imbalance, if possible, and pace accordingly. So we go step-by-step in building up our routine, pacing as necessary -- easy does it...
By the time you add on asanas, refine the mudras and bandhas, and add amaroli and a few other things, you may be rid of your alleriges completely. But you won't squeeze all that in by the weekend. Not without risking life and limb.
The guru is in you.
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2006 : 07:19:48 AM
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Hi Meg:
There is something else you can try for the hot feet. Consider this to be experimental, as I have no scriptural precedent for it, and only limited (but successful) experience with it here for leg and foot pain. Maybe it will work for hot feet too.
Just alter a few spinal breathing sessions (not a permanent change) to be going from feet to brow instead of from root/perineum to brow, and see what happens. Once the problem clears up, or if it has no effect after a few sessions, go back to normal spinal breathing. It is an easy temporary alteration in practice and can have a significant balancing effect on energy in the legs and feet. We just keep going down on the exhale through the legs all the way to the soles of the feet, and back up from there on inhale all the way to the brow. Don't overdo it, just short sessions (5-10 min) until you can see what you are getting out of it, if anything.
Try it and let us know. And keep walking too -- the measure of choice for most foot energy issues...
I have a feeling that once this clears up, your feet are going to feel mighty ecstatic. Meg's lotus feet... 
The guru is in you.
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breathe
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2006 : 10:21:15 AM
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Hi Meg,
Thanks for the welcome and the helpful thoughts. I will defintely let you know how it unfolds. I let the tongue lay down on the top of the soft palate this morning and it really helped. It feels now like the tongue is starting to reach out beyond the hard palate and feel some cool air as I breathe (if that makes sense). It is much easier than trying to reach back up -- no strain, very natural. I am wondering how far does it tend to be from this point to touching something solid?????? Anyway, it feels much better and more relaxed. Thank you!
Yogani, thank you also. I have backed off a little bit since my personal letter to you, though not too much. I focus on the spinal breathing but mulabandha,udhiyana bandha, jalandara bandha, sambavi and kechari all sort of kick in as the energy starts moving and the ecstatic conductivity picks up. sometimes they don't kick in as much someimes very powerfully so. The pracitices fit so naturally together that the Kundalini seems to be the guide and pulls them in as needed. As I mentioned before, I have done meditation, samyama, asanas, pranayama (nadi shodana and bhastrika mainly) (asanas and pranayama off and on)for about 30 to 35 years so a pretty good foundation has been laid. But focusing on the spinal breathing and then allowing the other parts to come in as feels comfortable seems to be working well. I practice the pieces a little outside of Practice so they are easier when I actually incorporate them.
Thank you all for the helpful sharing!!!!
Tom
PS. I have to say that the heart breathing (which I am now doing for a very short time at the end of meditation) may be my favorite. Pure sweet loving nectar!
PPS. I know, I am a spiritual pig. Can't help it. But everything is smooth so far. I look forward to allergies gently melting away!! |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2006 : 11:15:22 AM
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Tom - yes, it's a whole lot easier this way, with the tongue resting naturally, than to try to reach up into the black hole and find something to push against with the tongue. For me it was ironic that when I stopped trying so hard to force my confused version of kechari, my exhausted tongue simply gave up and rested easily against the soft palate, which is where it wanted to be the whole time. A sweet metaphor for my spiritual path. :) One of the drawbacks of having been raised in puritanical New England is that there's a stubborn belief that I must work hard for everything in life, and if it comes easily, I must be doing something wrong. :( I'm quite sure that none of the great saints or gurus emerged from that corner of the world. Btw, I don't think you're a spiritual pig; I think you're getting your money's worth at an all-you-can-eat spiritual buffet. But one can just bite off so much at a time, ya know? :)
Thanks for the tip, Yogani. I'll be happy to give it a try. I've been walking a lot, but it hasn't cleared the heat. No lotus feet here. :( |
Edited by - Manipura on Jun 22 2006 11:16:46 AM |
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breathe
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2006 : 11:34:40 AM
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| Yes, it is important to regulate oneself at the trough. I do over eat now and then. I have been sitting here at my desk practicing my kechari and it is SOOOOOOOOO much sweeter than it was. The tongue just rests there and kind of stretches out towards stage 3 --- but it feels good, natural, relaxed. I can see how you could just be in that state for hours. At first I couldn't grasp that. It was too strained. Thanks again Meg and good luck with those feet!! |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2006 : 11:45:29 AM
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Meg,
Have you been walking barefoot?
-Scott |
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breathe
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2006 : 11:51:56 AM
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| One more thing. It is very interesting to see how the flow of prana changes when you get into stage 2. I am not quite sure how to diescribe it, but it feels more stable, more open and up -- if that makes any sense? |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2006 : 1:02:22 PM
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Tom - I totally get it - it's terribly seductive to let the tongue rest in its new home for long stretches of time and reach, but I highly don't recommend it. Don't scarf out, dude - just small bites. I'm not real big on self-pacing either, but this mudra in particular offers you little choice, so it's a great time to learn to slow down a bit. It's like if you took a holiday in Hawaii: You don't just arrive and go lay on the beach for 8 hours straight, else you'd fry to a crisp, and the rest of your holiday is ruined. Easing into it slowly is best.
Scott - no, I'm not big on walking barefeet, but maybe I'll give it a try around the house. thanks! |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2006 : 1:17:03 PM
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You are right Meg resting the tongue on the soft palate does help.
Welcome Tom.
I can feel the cool air too as I breath.. but when push further I have been gagging.. hopefully I am in the right direction. Funny how little space there is when you look in your mouth.. but how much distance there is to cover when you try to explore with your tongue. I know what you are saying about the flow of energy with kechari.. and I can feel a definite connection between the soft pallet and the root.. if you know what I mean.. not ecstatic yet.. but there is a definite connection. |
Edited by - Shanti on Jun 22 2006 1:57:21 PM |
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breathe
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2006 : 4:20:22 PM
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Meg -- fortunately, I have to talk at work, so its hard to get out of control even if I wanted to, but thanks for the warning. Kechari does seem very powerful -- especially now that I have found a comfort level with it. Don't worry I am more balanced than I might appear!
How about a cold water soak for the feet? Not sure what else to suggest, but I always find walking to be grounding and balancing. Gentle exercise is definitely good.
Shanti -- thanks for the welcome! I have not reached a gag point, but it sounds like you are pointing in the right direction. It doesn't seem like you can get too far off track once you figure out that the tongue should be lying down and pointed towards the front. The energy part is great. I go from a fairly ecstatic energy to a more neutral quality. Seems best to just be with what comes and not try and manufacture anything. The quality of the nervous system changes and thus the experience changes. Being present with what is seems to allow more of the ecstacy to come to the surface naturally. Thanks again! |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2006 : 6:42:25 PM
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Tom,
I gag when I use my fingers to push my tongue back.. not otherwise.
I was not doing kechari with my practices so far, just practicing it on the side. I just did it with my spinal breathing.. there was so much heat.. I was sweating so much that it felt like I was standing under a shower.. My arms and legs are still shaking..
Umm.. guess I should back off...
May not have been kechari related though.. had a tough day at work, was really tired and my meditation was really deep..
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Edited by - Shanti on Jun 22 2006 7:50:51 PM |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2006 : 12:29:55 AM
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| Congratulation, Meg. Your progress seems to be faster than I'd expected. It makes me want to snip again, when I have that luxury! |
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breathe
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2006 : 12:14:16 PM
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Hi Shanti,
That sounds like a pretty intense reaction! Some good purification. Backing off a bit is probably a good idea. I haven't had anything that intense -- a little spacey or ungrounded if I over do it, but nothing more extreme than that. Sometimes I find just doing some more spinal breathing will actually smooth things out. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2006 : 1:40:07 PM
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Hi Tom,
I think it was Kechari related. I tried it this morning again.. I started off without kechari but as soon as I started kechari.. the heat just quadruples... and then meditation is soooooo deep. I am sort of scared and excited to think what will happen when I do enter the nasal passage.  |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2006 : 3:02:15 PM
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| Maybe my meditation doesn't go deep enough or maybe i am just used to it but in my experience it is not such a huge leap as some have been describing. perhaps may have to do with the newness of the experience and the effort involved in getting there. Kechari certainly helps me meditate but has gotten to feel pretty routine at this point so I think the dramatic experiences should fade with regular practice as you get used to the energetic shifts. |
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breathe
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2006 : 4:03:52 PM
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Hi Shanti,
That's really interesting! Keep me informed as it progresses. It is clearly doing something very powerful. I have not had any heat. Meg seems to be having a lot in her feet. It doesn't sound too pleasant, but at least it demonstrates very clearly that something out of the ordinary is going on with these practices. Victor could be right and it will even out afer some time. You could simply be having a big breakthrough. If it is too uncomfortable just back off for a while. |
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Kechari problems
