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Namath
350 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 13 2012 : 10:55:09 PM
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Hello everyone,
The last two days I've been through an inner conflict concerning pranayama.It's through and during pranayama (AYP style)that I've been through temporary bliss state and having no sense of body ,thoughts...
Beautiful ...
However,it's pranayama again that made me go through physical,emotional and mental pain in which the last one was severe pain in the left side of the shoulder,upper head pressure as if there's a tight cap and severe pain in left/right waist that lasted for a day or two and left me in tears...At that time I thought no more spinal breathing for me.
Nowadays,I get this inner urge to do spinal breathing again and ignored my mind saying no.the evening I did it,spent the night with breathing totally stopping at night and being in outer space (not the empty space but really outer space with the stars dust gases...etc...Hallucinating maybe?)
Still that was not enough to stop my person from doing pranayama till I think the gods are fed up with my stubbornness and sent two advanced practitioners my way to sit with yesterday and they opened the subject about the danger of pranayama and why it's not supposed to be practiced on one's own without guru's guidance.There's a man I know that keeps moving his shoulder involuntary up and down and yesterday I knew it was from the breathing exercise he was doing ...Another had severe nervous breakdown...a third went mentally coco and now in an institution.Although these people are so called very advanced and old practitioners of yoga and meditation ...
Whether it's Ramana,Radha Ma or Amma...these are beings that I love and are totally against practicing spinal breathing without a guru supervising the process.There were simple pranayama where the breathing is being watching...but it stayed that simple with Ramana's teaching.
Being here in Tiru for few days now....everyone wants to speak about their spiritual and non dual experiences...to the extend I'm fed up and bored from all of that...I just walk away.But in the same time,it rises a feeling of gratitude for AYP members :Shant,Chas S,Christi,Ananda,Karl and many others.. those who answered my curious questions with a kind gentle reply although they probably saw it and heard it all before...To Yogani and those beautiful souls and other AYP practitioners,I raise the question...
Why there's no warning about the danger of Pranayama in the lessons.& what's the approach if something goes wrong with an AYPer.
This is not a question out of curiosity...It's out of care for the well being of everyone...I truly don't wish for anyone to go through the pains I've been through....There must be a safer way for that?Such as...not letting anyone to practice energy stimulating practices before doing deep meditation for a year or more...
Just an opinion.
Thank you ,
Namaste.
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2012 : 11:53:56 PM
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Well, first of all my thoughts are that you should be very consistent in pranayama. Never skip a days practice. Next is that one should never overdo or go beyond what is their comfort zone and be consistent with duration from day to day. The last is to be sure to go by feel rather than breath timings. Find that sweet spot of comfort in every breath and open into that. Don't push.
Also, don't do pranayama before bed. First thing in the morning is best and if there are issues with sleep it is fine to skip evening practice. Better to be consistent with morning practice followed by meditation, a little rest and then start your day.
Pranayama indeed has its risks, also great benefits. It is important to be extremely mindful and sensitive in every moment of your practice. I hope that helps [img]icon_heart.gif[/img] |
Edited by - Victor on Dec 13 2012 11:55:01 PM |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2012 : 02:01:19 AM
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quote:
Why there's no warning about the danger of Pranayama in the lessons.& what's the approach if something goes wrong with an AYPer.
self pacing is a tool that is always mentioned in all ayp lessons and in all kinds of ayp practices
self pacing is such strong security tool...and frankly no tradtional guru based system ever mentions it....so regarding caution in practices, ayp is very avant guarde
ayp is a self guided path to liberation....it is up to the practioner to be wise enough and apply self pacing when needed
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quote:
they opened the subject about the danger of pranayama and why it's not supposed to be practiced on one's own without guru's guidance.
there are many examples where the students were practicing according to their guru guidance....yet those students will over do their prananamya practices and end up overloading...is it the guru fault? offcourse not....so botttom line ,with or without a guru,the student is responsible for the smoothness or lack of smoothness of his own path...the choice is always the choice of the student...
also Victor gave very good pointers
TGIIY |
Edited by - maheswari on Dec 14 2012 02:06:23 AM |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2012 : 11:22:54 AM
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Hi Namath:
Thanks for bringing this up. You have good feedback from Victor and Maheswari already.
Your question really applies to the application of all practices, regardless of their source. Whether we are practicing under the guidance of a guru, or using an open resource like AYP, it is always going to be the practitioner's responsibility to assess the causes and effects in practice, and make adjustments accordingly.
I think it would be wrong to condemn a category of practice for everyone because a few have been very sensitive to it. Likewise, it would be wrong to condemn a particular food for everyone because a few have an allergy to it.
The AYP approach to pranayama is measured and actually quite modest in relation to more intensive paths where hours of pranayama per day are recommended. AYP suggests 10 minutes or less of spinal breathing before meditation. In a case where there is sensitivity, the time should be scaled back to only a few minutes, or none at all. I think you have done the right thing in that regard. And, as we have seen time and again, there can be a delayed reaction in the effects of pranayama, so it is wise to anticipate that and be conservative in adding any new level of daily practice.
You may find it frustrating that you cannot do even a few minutes of spinal breathing without a negative after-effect. It is what it is, and the AYP lessons have you covered for doing what is necessary to proceed with comfort and safety. You don't have to do one second more of pranayama than what works for you. And if it is none, then so be it. That is an aspect of your path in the here and now that should be honored.
You also have the option to try a few minutes of gentle alternate nostril breathing before meditation. If that also causes an irritating after-effect, then you should stay away from that too. It is common sense, yes? You don't have to keep up with anyone else with your practices. Only do what is best for your own path. Everyone is different in this and should navigate accordingly.
Let's avoid getting into the "one size fits all" mentality. And also, let's avoid getting into a "this practice is bad for everyone" mentality. Neither is true. What is true is that each practice in the tool box has value for those who find it beneficial. And if it is not beneficial, then don't use it. There are plenty of ways to move forward without exposing ourselves to undue discomfort.
As Rumi said: "There are a thousand ways to kneel and kiss the ground." 
All the best on your continuing path. Practice wisely, and enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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Namath
350 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2012 : 11:23:27 PM
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Hi
Victor!Thank you,I agree with everything you said...except this "Never skip a days practice."...In my case,Spinal breathing was never more than 5 to 7 mins and having it as a daily practice was too much for my system.
Maha,self Pace is mentioned few times in Lessons and has a lesson on its own,I agree.However,as someone who adopted AYP system and practiced it even for few years...and coming with no spiritual knowledge or teaching from before.I feel it's not stressed enough...It was very easy to catch the ecstasy,bliss...peace ...happiness...freedom words when I first read the lessons than to give any notice to the self pacing part.
"there are many examples where the students were practicing according to their guru guidance....yet those students will over do their prananamya practices and end up overloading...is it the guru fault?"
I would love to know a counter example?
Yogani-ji,
you said getting into the "one size fits all" mentality. And also, let's avoid getting into a "this practice is bad for everyone" mentality.
I never said that
Iam where Iam now due to AYP practices.Just seeing this man with his involuntary shoulder movement and hearing all this horrific stories....& having been through severe pain in my neck shoulder area before it moved to the left shoulder blade...I might have ended like any of those men.
I said what I said with the intention to bring the attention of individuals- who might be like myself- that spinal breathing is no game even though it feels so sweet when practiced.
The message is said from my side,I'm satisfied now.
Last night it hit me that all the world is existing w.r.t I...There's no Allah,no Ramana, no Ganesan,no Yogani...no family,no friends...All are imaginary figures projected from the "I"...& there's no death no birth...Just the I.Lonely place to be.there's nobody there yet each and everyone is part of I...Only the eternal I.
lol,yesterday I was fed up with people who speak about non dual experiences,today I'm speaking like them
Salam everybody, thanx for listening
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2012 : 02:46:28 AM
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quote:
I would love to know a counter example?
when i did TTC and ATTC (teacher training course and advanced teacher training course) in yoga,the swamis always told us stories about students practicing under the supervision of their guru , yet these students will over do their practices and end up hurting themselves
Swamis always told us to be wise in our practices
so if the student wants to turn a deaf ear...what can be done? nothing...it is his/her choice
quote:
I might have ended like any of those men.
but you did not...so why worry for nothing?
life is all about " might happen"...
if one walk and sees a red light yet one ignored it as trivial and continued walking ,well a car might run him over ...
let us not fall in useless worries and discussions (one of the mind's pitfallS!)...
TGIIY |
Edited by - maheswari on Dec 15 2012 02:48:27 AM |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2012 : 5:59:32 PM
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When I studied Iyengar yoga I was told in no uncertain terms to either do or not do pranayama but never to do it irregularly. that the lung tissue and nerves are very sensitive and can quickly revert to a beginners level, and that practicing irregularly ( not daily) would do more harm than good.I have followed that rule throughout my practice and it has stood me well. Also there is the establishment of a habit which can easily be lost if one is not consistent. I was taught that if there is a day that you cannot practice then do 5 minutes of conscious breathing just to maintain the thread. It is also perfectly alright not to practice Pranayama if you are oversensitive to it. No one is making you do it.
My personal practice is 20 minutes of Pranayama once a day and that has worked for me for many years. You need to find what works best for you. The key is to be very mindful and sensitive to your own process. I hope that helps some. |
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Namath
350 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 12:10:51 AM
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Hello Maha & Victor,
I'm sorry Maha but I don't agree.A real guru can redirect the energy as necessary and if needed stop it all together.
Thank you Victor for your advice.Definitely I need to find a balance in practice to stop the pendulum from going from highest heaven to lowest hell
Salam.
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 08:26:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Namath
Hello Maha & Victor,
I'm sorry Maha but I don't agree.A real guru can redirect the energy as necessary and if needed stop it all together.
Thank you Victor for your advice.Definitely I need to find a balance in practice to stop the pendulum from going from highest heaven to lowest hell
Salam.
Hi Namath,
I would definitely agree. A true guru/master can control the energy flows of a student.
Enjoy the moment.
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 09:16:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
quote:
Originally posted by Namath
Hello Maha & Victor,
I'm sorry Maha but I don't agree.A real guru can redirect the energy as necessary and if needed stop it all together.
Thank you Victor for your advice.Definitely I need to find a balance in practice to stop the pendulum from going from highest heaven to lowest hell
Salam.
Hi Namath,
I would definitely agree. A true guru/master can control the energy flows of a student.
Enjoy the moment.
It depends almost entirely on how impressionable the student is. Ultimately each of us is responsible for our own growth and openings. Excessive and blind dependence on a guru/master figure, although advocated in many spiritual lineages, can (and does) result in all of the above, particularly if the focus is on scenery (bliss, energy, ecstasy, etc).
There is no question that there must be surrender. The real question is - surrender to what? A guru/master with siddhis or to seeing the Truth?
Peace 
kami |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 12:18:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
A true guru/master can control the energy flows of a student.
Even from a theoretical view-point, that still overlooks the sensitivity or receptivity of the student or recipient, as kami also pointed out.
From what I read, not everyone who goes for shaktipat/darshan feels it. That still falls short of drawing conclusions about the teacher or guru. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 1:51:09 PM
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quote:
The real question is - surrender to what? A guru/master with siddhis or to seeing the Truth?
excellent...very well said!
which also brings us to another question: what are your expectations from a guru? to be a savior? said who? is not this also another construction of the mind?
a genuine guru might point the road but you have to move your own feet, walk the path by yourself making yr choices and decisions along the way.... |
Edited by - maheswari on Dec 20 2012 2:01:15 PM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 3:39:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AumNaturel
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
A true guru/master can control the energy flows of a student.
Even from a theoretical view-point, that still overlooks the sensitivity or receptivity of the student or recipient, as kami also pointed out.
From what I read, not everyone who goes for shaktipat/darshan feels it. That still falls short of drawing conclusions about the teacher or guru.
Hi AumNatural,
Whether the student can feel it or not depends on the sensitivity to energy/silence of the student. But, that does not limit the Guru. A Guru calming energy flows may just feel like a headache went away for the student.
Enjoy the moment.
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 4:51:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AumNaturel
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
A true guru/master can control the energy flows of a student.
From what I read, not everyone who goes for shaktipat/darshan feels it. That still falls short of drawing conclusions about the teacher or guru.
Agree wholeheartedly.
Many of us here can cause energy sensations in others! The ability to do that doesn't make one a "true" guru or a "master". The inability (or disinterest) to cause such phenomena does not make a great guru less "true". The greatest teachers (Ramana, for example) pointed their students back to themselves and beyond the illusion of energetic happenings/scenery, and encouraged development of the discriminating intellect.
As one great teacher here says, "The guru is in you".
Peace! |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 6:34:40 PM
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Jeff, I do follow your reasoning or experience. Underneath that is the question of the relation between a guru's ability to exert an influence, and their status. I believe one really says nothing about the other. Kami's explanation is lucid.
An equally valid statement would be a 'true' teacher will provide the best methods at their disposal for a given discipline, without relying on any direct influence, since it will in the end be subject to impermanence and foster dependence (lessons 146 & 419) without sparing the discipline from engaging in their own sadhana in the least. Maheswari is raising that same point looking back in the replies. |
Edited by - AumNaturel on Dec 20 2012 6:45:06 PM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 9:12:56 PM
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Hi Aumnatural,
I understand what you (and Kami) are saying and i am not arguing for a guru. I was only agreeing with Namath as to what a guru "can do".
If one has a guru, they would have trust/devotion that the guru knows what is best for them.
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 9:41:03 PM
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The common misperception, unfortunately, is that the more "magic tricks" a guru can throw out, the more "real" they must be. Why should we rely on gurus (or anyone else) to control/redirect/stop our energies and experiences when they are projections of our own (conscious or subconscious) minds? The "real" guru's job is to point his/her finger to the moon. The "real" student's job is to look at the moon, not get fixated on the finger.
Maya is super smart She keeps us entangled in her snare by constantly redirecting our minds externally and away from the only "real" thing - ourselves.
Just wanted to be clear that I'm very much about gurus. But they come in all forms and pretty much in every moment. And they are all very much "real" - truly masterful whether they point me to the Truth, or lure me into Maya's web.
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Edited by - kami on Dec 20 2012 9:42:36 PM |
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Namath
350 Posts |
Posted - Dec 21 2012 : 02:48:02 AM
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Interesting points of views...I'm so enlightened I'm not going to take part in this discussion  ...I'm above all that...,lol!Only kidding.
Thank you for your inputs everybody  |
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Pranayama Alert
