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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 06 2006 : 6:06:02 PM
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Hari Om
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I often wonder why we have moderate to slow growth within the spiritual community and the overall society. That is, our perennial conversation of Where's the Enlightened?
I believe I think I know at least one root cause of this ( in the age of Kali). I would like to get your take on this… what your thoughts are? Here's one of my explanations/understandings:
In the Bhagavad-Gita, Chapt 2 , Arjuna asks Krsna ' what are the signs of a man whose intellect is steady, who is absorbed in the SELF O Keshava? [ or one with long hair ].
Krsna goes on to answer the question in the next ~ 18 verses, but let me point out a few that sadhu's, aspirants, and those seeking Fullness of life ( Kavalya), with well intentions may have misinterpreted.
Krsna responds and says ' when a man completely casts off all desires that have gone deep into the mind O Partha ( Arjuna) when he is satisfied in the SELF through the self alone, then is he said to be of steady intellect.'
- So, the avg. aspirant reads this and says, '...ya know I need to be without desires, that will get me to the SELF!'
This is not the instruction and can create listlessness and inaction.
this is the last thing the Gita is promoting.
Krsna goes on to say [these are now just snippets]
- acts without longing, relinquished desires, free of the sense of 'I', senses are withdrawn, turbulent senses,bring them (senses)under control, etc . [All of this is from verse 55 to 71, Chapt 2]
Well, the aspirant reads this and sees, withdraw of the senses, control of the mind, high discipline, etc etc. This is the field of TRYing to act in a way, its effort, not natural and undue strain occurs, mood making of being a yogi, sadhu, etc. enters the picture, and more people leave the path and say this is just not possible to get to this state… { I have personally observed this mood making }
Yet, one fails to realize one of the most important instructions in the Gita ( the cornerstone of SELF realization) that is:
Chapt 2, verse 48, Krsna instructs Arjuna 'Yogastah Kuru Karmani' or established in Yoga ( union of SELF)O winner of wealth (Arjuna) perform actions, having abandoned attachment and having become balanced in success and failure for balance (some say steadiness, restful alertness) of mind is Yoga.
All the other instructions given are based upon being established in yoga.. and the benefits or expressions of being 'possessed of the SELF' or 'this is the state of Brahman' says Krsna; one attains eternal freedom ( Moksha).
One becomes skilled in actions, the universe ( laws of nature) work with you - you are an extention of THAT.
My thoughts are 'we got it wrong' and we need a helmet adjustment to get it right.
That's my rant , I cound be wrong... ( thank you Dennis Miller!)
agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego
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Edited by - Frank-in-SanDiego on Jun 06 2006 6:15:48 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2006 : 9:34:50 PM
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Hi Frank,
Your posts always get me thinking and running to the Gita.. Yes, what you have said is true.. but verse 47 says "Thy right is work only, but never to its fruits; let not the fruit-of-action be thy motive, nor let thy attachment be to inaction"
So before verse 48.. he covers the inaction part of it.. don't you think?
This is not the instruction and can create listlessness and inaction.
You are the expert in this area.. and I will not argue with you. But, just picking a line from the Gita, and trying to understand it without the verses before and after can be very confusing.
The meaning of each line in the Gita, changes as our awareness changes.. that maybe the reason there are so many commentaries available today... each person at his own awareness level, has his own style and way of interpreting the Gita.. that does not make any of the meanings wrong.. just the level of understanding different.
So yes, if you do pick one line out it may seem like the Gita is telling you to be listless and inactive... but if you have read the lines before, and the lines that follow.. chances are you won't hold on to that image for long...
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2006 : 9:42:25 PM
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Hari Om
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quote:
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Originally posted by Shanti
The meaning of each line in the Gita, changes as our awareness changes..
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Hello Shanti,
Yes, your post makes perfect sense. Taking all of the gita into consideration is the key. Just as you said, it has different levels of meaning. Just as you go to later chapters the gita gets more profound and becomes foundational for various levels of sadhu's on the path. If one does not begin to establish that clarity of awareness, then the words in the gita are just flowery words.
So, the point I was making is many in Kali choose to do what is considered action-related to become enlightened. That is acting in way that simulates enlightenment - the confusion over not being able to reach the SELF? no problem, let me assumulate the behaviors.
Many a teacher (guru) also talk of being without desires, this only causes strain. The desire part comes with the circuity of the human being ; the ultimate desire is to be universal. We look for this with our desire to have more ( taste, friends, money, happiness, spiritual experiences, house, car, etc). That desire to be more then the most -we're wired for it.
It's said, 'success in action is born of sattva, it is never the means' that is, one's success comes natually as one progresses to the pure, and not the other way around.
Just as Krsna says become established in yoga, then act. Its the foundation of success and skill.
So, what does that hve to do with AYP? its our transcendting, experincing pure consciousness that is the effortless path to stablizing restful alertness within ourselves.
Thanks again, your post added value!
agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego
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Edited by - Frank-in-SanDiego on Jun 07 2006 1:42:57 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 07 2006 : 09:55:21 AM
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Frank,
I think you are right that there is a huge amount of 'putting the cart before the horse'. It is indeed true that 'abandoning desires' only works when a huge yogic pre-requisite is already laid down.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jun 07 2006 : 10:52:24 AM
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quote:
Frank said :Many a teacher (guru) also talk of being without desires, this only causes strain. The desire part comes with the circuity of the human being ; the ultimate desire is to be universal. We look for this with our desire to have more ( taste, friends, money, happiness, spiritual experiences, house, car, etc). That desire to be more then the most -we're wired for it.
I often wonder why we have moderate to slow growth within the spiritual community and the overall society. That is, our perennial conversation of Where's the Enlightened?
I believe I think I know at least one root cause of this ( in the age of Kali). I would like to get your take on this… what your thoughts are?
Frank, here is my understanding of what you are saying about the Cart B-4 The Horse. I will agree with you, when the Gita said give up desires, I could not figure out how. This lead to a lot of confusion...
quote:
Well, the aspirant reads this and sees, withdraw of the senses, control of the mind, high discipline, etc etc. This is the field of TRYing to act in a way, its effort, not natural and undue strain occurs, mood making of being a yogi, sadhu, etc. enters the picture, and more people leave the path and say this is just not possible to get to this state… { I have personally observed this mood making }
I wish there was a magic wand that could be waved and poof! desires all gone.. but there is no such thing and no one can make these desires dissappear for you... it has to come from the inside.. .
Giving up desires is not something you can make yourself do.. but with meditation, these desires slowly fade away.. and then one day we realize: all I can do is continue with my practice and watch in amazement the transformations that are happening... nothing changes and yet everything has changed... and I have to do nothing... absolutely nothing.. just continue with my practice.
However there was a time when, if I did not have any expectation I may not even look towards meditation. So desire is very important and trying to give up on these without getting oneself involved in some kind of practice is, like you said.. putting the cart before the horse.. we try to give things up without any inner silence.. that just makes our desires grow stronger and get us more frustrated.. but if we do cultivate some inner silence.. these desires just melt away into this silence without us even realizing it.
Trying to give up desires before we find some innner silence is what I think, we in the kali yug have "got it wrong" and "need a helmet adjustment to get it right."... and AYP has the way to make it happen (I am sure there are other practices that do the same but I do not know of them).
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Edited by - Shanti on Jun 07 2006 2:54:54 PM |
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - Jun 07 2006 : 10:54:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Frank,
I think you are right that there is a huge amount of 'putting the cart before the horse'.
David,
I think you too are spot on... I see it so often, the struggle to comply to this 'no desire thing', to control, etc. I believe that simplicity is good, and practice it, and that conservation of energy ( Brahmachara) is good , but to try and manually control the senses, its a losing battle but a noble cause. From what I have seen, it ceates dulless of the mind, at times it creates zellots too. Also the thought of ' me bad' when ones senses do what they do best - look for more happiness or just more in general, brings one to grief.
This is the principle of transcending - that the mind moves to finer more expanding levels of consciousness and finds increasing delight in the silence... that's the physics behind it. If we beat our senses up and unnaturally control them we dull the circuits.
Its when one is estabished in the SELF that the senses rejoice as being satisfied - really its the mind, as the senses serves this up to the mind. Then the pursuit of enjoyment of the senses are 'tamed' as the SELF resides in the SELF, has more then the most, what more can one then want? Then when one experiences the world around them, its a delight, because there are no restrictions, no binding back again and again in hopes that this time 'it will make me feel whole'.
thanks again for your note!
agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego
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Edited by - Frank-in-SanDiego on Jun 07 2006 10:56:49 AM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2006 : 12:32:42 AM
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To me all external desires: cars, money, sex etc. are sought after to make us feel good or to distract us from our pain. Yoga practices help us transcend external desires as we realize that we already have all the good feelings we need inside if we just dig for them.
I say play with the desire until you are a- bored of it or b- the price of trying to obtain it outweighs the perceived benefits of obtaining it. I believe all desires lead eventually to us losing interest for one reason or another. Yoga accelerates this process as our inner states start to provide us with the root of everything we could possibly desire. |
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lucidinterval1
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2006 : 09:22:18 AM
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| Amen Anthem...Spoken like a true Yogi. |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Apr 30 2011 : 7:57:47 PM
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Desire and the path of yoga is so misunderstood.
It is like anything else; there is a time and a season for all things.
Let's start at the very beginning: a brand new being who has no pre-existing tendencies.
Such a being has no karma. Such a being has a "soul" which is colorless and does not radiate.
Call this being a baby soul if you wish. I wish to make clear, that what I call a "soul" is a temporary sructure.
Some people use the Sanskrit term Jiva. What I am not discussing, is the Atman, or the "highest higher self". I'll return to the relationship between the Jiva and the Atman in a bit. Baby souls do not know what they are, nor from whence they originate. They have almost no senses at all; everything is a confusing blurr, both "above" and "below". However "below" is much simpler in a manner of speaking. A baby soul is much more capable of learning from the physical world.
Baby souls are still learning how their basic equipment works, and normal and natural desires
are just that: normal and natural. When they get angry, it is not a bad thing. When they
become selfish it is not a bad thing. It is what it is. Everybody starts at the starting
line. While there is karma for babies, it does not amount to much for a long time.
Now when baby souls learn deceit, pride, envy and all the uglier responses, that is a different matter. Those actions create karma. The once colorless "soul" gains colors. Not pretty colors however.
Once the baby learns these negagtive lessons, and is beginning to understand how these experiences are suboptimal, the baby has become an adolescent.
Still, at this stage, desire is not "bad". It simply is what it is.
You can't learn lessons from the world, if you don't have desire.
This is true at all stages of development, but the way it is true does change as ones nervous system / soul evolves under the stress of being alive.
After much time, the adolescent soul gains many experiences in the world, and discovers the first glimmering of light amidst the confusion. Such normal desires as romantic love begin to become a bit noble; things like self-sacrifice are seen to have an enobling effect. The adolescent soul begins to gain a few beautiful colors. The adolescent has become an adult.
Most humans in the world today are adult souls.
Adult souls still do not know who they are. They have little perception of "worlds which are
higher than them". Adult souls do not know from whence they originate, and during the death
of one of their bodies they feel listless and disconnected. To keep their sanity, they find
themselves attaching to a nervous system again, in the physical world. Contrary to popular
belief, this does not necessarily happen at conception or birth. Souls may attach to biological
systems in many ways; some attach to multiple bodies at the same time.
Oftentimes a person will live for years and years, without much of a "personal" soul at all;
and then maybe when they are 30 or so, an adult soul suddenly attaches. Some people are totally
mundane, and then suddenly their personality changes overnight. A late-attaching soul such
as this, assumes what little karma was built up by the being to which they attach.
Still at this stage, despite much karma, desire is not "wrong". Desire and the karma that results ar the lessons to be learned. That is all. It is true however, that some souls become stubborn and punish themselves with self-generated, "extra" karma, to punish themselves. This punishment is actually unnecessary; but it is a learning experience--and that is the entire purpose of karma in the first place.
Eventually, the soul becomes a bit radiant. The lessons it has learned from the physical world begin to expand it's spiritual senses, and it begins to realize that it is a resident of two worlds; it stands at the crossroads, of the "above" and the "below". It begins to think that it is an immortal god. It begins to go insane. It begins to thirst for more knowlege about its place in reality.
Lets call such a soul, a "thirsty soul". To be in such a state is not actually advanced; it just is what it is.
Thirsty souls will attach to a body which is bioligically / genetically capable of expressing more of the soul in the world, than an "average" body is capable of doing. Sometimes they enter a world where they are the most advanced soul in that world. But usually they enter a world where their type of being is close to being the norm.
Now Shakti-Kundalini enters into the picture. Shakti is the one substance, from which everything else is woven. Kundalini is the desire innate within all substance, from the most unresponsive, to the most subtle. Shakti-Kundalini is one-half of the One; She responds to His formless, timeless being, and weaves the worlds into existence wtihin her body.
Kundalini is the very essence of desire. While desire knows no bounds, and is infinite in variety, the penultimate desire that Kundalini expresses is the desire to evolve; the desire to make love to her lord Shiva in the flesh.
One thing that most people on the path might not at first realize, is that the radiant nature which the soul gains, is due to being infused with Kundalini.
Another thing that most people on the path might not at first realize, is that desire, even at the highest possible level is not now, nor every could be "bad". One-half of the One is the very essence of desire.
It would be foolish not to properly use desire. There is all this nonsense about avoiding desire.
How incredibly foolish it is to avoid desire. Desire in all her forms IS Kundalini. Desire is the one thing which drives evolution. If you want to evolve, you need to find the appropriate desire.
That is the key.
The second facet of desire is the element of time. Now this is where people rightly get into trouble with desire. It is one-hundred percent appropriate and in fact necessary to desire enlightenment. The problem is when conditions and confusions muddy the pure desire.
If you insist upon becoming enlightened by means of one particular spiritual method or path,
you are corrupting appropriate desire. If you insist on becoming enlightened within the present
lifetime, you are corrupting appropriate desire.
Desire is never the problem. It is misusing desire which is the problem. Even a transient desire to murder an innocent is harmless, if you do not identify with it, if you do not make it real, if you do not lend it any of your power. It then dies away and troubles no one.
By all means, desire to become enlightened wtih the passion of ten-billion suns. In fact this is
to be recommended. If you wish to become enlightened for certain, feed your appropriate desire, until it rages like a hurricane within you.
But do not let your desire become foolish. Do not let your desire become a hindrance. Do not stop being kind to strangers because of your desire. Do not stop loving your spouse and playing with your children because of your desire. Either curb your desire as appropriate, or use all things in the world as a further expression of your desire.
For example when you are kind to a stranger, you are being kind to shiva and shakti. This is an appropriate expression of your one burning desire. When you humbly love and serve your spouse, you are actually loving and serving Shiva and Shakti.
So long as you keep it approprite and non-toxic (do not demand the time or the season or the exact expression) and you will be fine. You will not generate karma from this desire, if you do not limit it, if you do not shy away from necessary suffering. You can be a raging volcano of appropriate desire, and be knocking on the door to enlightenment. In fact, this is the most certain way to find the door at all.
But let's get back to our thirsty soul.
The thirsty soul manifests as a golden glow, a radiance, which the body can feel at various places. The most common at first is in the heart. However near the end, the throat and brow are most stimulated by the soul.
If your ego is quite pure (by ego I mean the limited self-concept), and your nervous system is up to the task (due to extensive AYP practices over the years), then activating Kundalini is quite simple.
Just "lean into" the desire of the soul. That's it. Make the soul's desire your desire. Feed that desire. Live with all your heart, mind and body to fulfill the soul's desire. Let nothing stand in your way.
But again; you must be absolutely pure and ready. You must abandon all hope that your personal ego, your limited self will survive. In fact, you must let it die. If you don't let your old self die, then the new self will be excluded. For the new to take root, the old must pass away.
If you fall into the trap of beliving that you are now becoming enlightened, because the temporary, limited soul, the accumulator of your karma has started to shine, then you are in big trouble.
This is being superstitious. This is corrupting the appropriate desire. The radiant, thirsty sould does not know it yet, but it's fate is to DIE. By die, i mean that it becomes reorganized, and at the moment of true enlightenment it is sucked up into the Atman and is no more. What is left behind is a beautiful, diamond conduit, beteen your body and the Atman. But the thirsty soul doesn't realize this at this point.
As you do your practices, under the direction of the thirty soul, the golden power will cause amrita to form in your brain. Amrita will drip drip drip; you may or may not feel it. It doest not need to be obvious. Armrita is the biochemical messenger, by which Kundalini which infuses the soul,
to "call" the kundalini locked within the matter of the body and to start waking it up.
As you no doubt know, the mass of potential stretching from the sacral area to the base of the
spine, is a vast repository of kundalini, which starts to awaken, in response to the drip.
Now it would be MOST wise, to pace yourself, and not attempt to get the lower-body kundalini
overstimulated. It is NOT appropriate to lean into this desire. By attempting to light a match
in a kegroom, you are attempting to force the schedule. This is a corrupting, karma-laden
desire. Please avoid it.
It is by far better to let unfoldment happen naturally, as a result of your purified, timeless
desire. This is a critical time. It would be best to serve your fellow man as selflessly as possible, rather than to focus upon any particular body region. It would also be best, to gently
perform AYP practices, and not attempt to set the time and the season of awakening.
Well let's say that Kundalini does become most active (Kundalini being the desire to evolve and to return to her lord Shiva; the energy itself is Shakti), and your body starts to transform into a better vehicle for perceiving the One. Let's say that all goes very well.
Purified, appropriate desire is appropriate up to the final moment; the moment when the soul is so full of Kundalini, that it can no longer stay in what I call "human form". With a great cry of liberation, the soul is transformed, and rejoins Atman.
Congratualtions, technically-speaking you are now enlightened. That's what the fuss was about.
A bit of more subtle matter became most brilliant and rejoined the source. In the process however,
a sturdy conduit between Atman and the physical world is formed. This conduit is how the formless One becomes perceivable as part of your normal daily consciousness.
Now the time right after enlightenment is a fragile time. You still don't know the rules of the road, and there may be nobody alive who can help you. The truth be told, in my opinion, many so-called guru's stumble at this point. They become enlightened AND useless.
What then, is the appropriate use of desire, if any, for an enlightened man or woman?
It is very simple.
It is no longer appropriate to feed Kundalini your devotion, in the same way as before.
Kundalini has done her job. Yes, She will remain rooted in Sahasrara (the crown) for the
rest of your life. You must still be careful with your subtle biophysical substances,
such as your sexual juices, amrita, soma and ojas. However these substances now act in
"maintenance mode", not rapid evolution mode.
Shakti-Kundalini will remain active, to keep the biochemical part of the conduit open,
so that lord Shiva may continue to look out through you into the world in this manner,
and more importantly other humans may catch a glimpse of him through you. Your nervous
system will contine to evolve.
At this stage, it is CRITICAL to let the great passion go. There is no longer a need
for it. Let lord Shiva gently speak from the void, (via the now sane, non-babbling
kundalini) to continue to subtly alter your brain and nervous system.
It is CRITICAL, to ignore any actual words that appear in your mind. The One never
speaks with words, only from the formless silence. If you think that you are now
some great incarnation of god, some ascended being, then I weep for you. You have
become terribly corrupted at 1 second before midnight on the enlightenment clock.
Enlightenment is a learnable skill. One you can learn from your inner guru. One
which an enlightened person can help you learn a bit, but mostly its up to your
internal guru.
Enlightenment has nothing to do with god. Nothing. Zip. Zero. Do not let the purified
ego which brought you so far, fail you at the last moment. Do not become a useless
"enlightened" person.
So then what desires are appropriate in an enlightened person?
If you are wise, you will become so still, so filled with the silence, that you become
increasingly immune to desire. The only desires that will remain, will increasingly
come from the void. You will spontaneously do things, from "nowhere". Appropriate
things. Things like compassion, kindness and just pure silliness. The One is the source
of all playfullness you know.
Now, "normal" desires are as normal as for the baby soul. Are you hungry? well, then
its appropriate to desire food. Are you horny? Well, it can be entirely appropriate
to have sex or tantra with a loved one. You will probably need to maintain the not
more than once per week sort of thing, but the desire is normal and not to be avoided.
You now have nothing to be. You have nothing to do. You are free to be a completley
average, if quite goofy and playful human.
Do you want to write a book, that might benefit others? Fantastic. Do you want to write
a book for the pure joy of doing it? Great. Do you write a book because you need
money? Well that won't work probably, given the state of publishing, but great!
But what is NOT appropriate any longer, are desires which run totally contrary
to both the Normal and the Silence.
The need for that insane type of desire is no more. That insane type of desire is
just for Kundalini and the now deceased soul. Oh don't worry; everything of value
within that soul is now part of Atman.
To be quite clear, it is no longer appropriate to feed desire.
Normal desire and reflexive desire flowing from the silence are for you.
Wacky, unbalanced desire is not for you.
I must at this point dispel one other source of confusion regarding desire and enlightenment. Some folks reincarnate, especially people who follow such paths as Buddhism, and enter the world either fully enlightened or nearly so. These folks will frown at you, if you mention using desire as a spiritual tool. They may frown big-time, if you mention Kundalini. They might well call Kundalini and Tantra "left hand paths". Of course their higher awareness is being powered by kundalini, which awoke in some past life, and which is gently active every moment. However for most people, who wish an active and engaged existence with the world, their path will often include an active awareness of Kundalini in their practice.
I hope that this little primer on the psychology of enlightenment has cleared up this matter for you.
If it has not, feel free to ask questions. I suspect that I may write an entire little book named,
"The Psychology of Enlightenment" at some point.
As to where all the enlightened people are? Enlightened people are the most obvious, soon after they have joined those ranks, and they are still processing everything. Otherwise they are true chameleons. You could be up to your armpits with enlightened and never know it. An enlightened man or woman has no need to be anyone or anything, other than calm, compassionate and kind. The garbage man might be enlightened. Enlightenment is a skill, not a profession. The "enlightened" who turn this skill into a job, are the ones you need to be most careful with; it is quite likely that they stumbled at the 1 yard line, at 1 second before midnight, and have set in motion strange karma for themsleves. These people probably still have souls.
One final thing to say about enlightened people--is not actually about enlightened people per se. It is about aspirants. If aspirants are full of themselves, in this self-service Internet-dominated world, they may never catch the notice of an external enlightened person. Enlightened people don't form "astral patrols" looking for people who can learn from them. Sorry; that is bullsh*t. You can trust me, that an enlightened person would throw themsleves down into a spike-laden pit, should that be the appropriate action to assist a seeker, who knows their spiritual poverty and needs an external person to work with for a period of time. But if they don't ask, they will NOT trigger the reflexive response that flows naturally from an enlightened person. Do you want to catch the notice of an enlightened person? Help a homeless person on the street. Want to really catch the notice of an enlightened person? Form a group that needs advice, is willing to learn, and who act cohesively to do good things in the world. Enlightened people love to see spunk. Spunk tells a great story, and Shiva/Shakti are the primordial story-tellers. If you just write some whiny posts on Internet forums, do not expect an astral rip to form and to have legions of enlightened Dakinis to arrive to massage your privates and read you sutras. Won't happen.
May your path open before you without confusion or fear,
Kevin Cann |
Edited by - kevincann on Apr 30 2011 9:33:43 PM |
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The Cart B-4 The Horse
