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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
 Posted - May 10 2012 : 6:37:12 PM
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In Eastern Orthodox Christianity, there is a meditative practice known as Hesychasm, and some of the parallels with yoga / meditation are interesting.
A few quotes from a Wikipedia article, describing Heyschasm:
"Hesychasm in tradition has been the process of retiring inward by ceasing to register the senses, in order to achieve an experiential knowledge of God."
"The practice of inner prayer, aiming at union with God on a level beyond images, concepts and language."
"The terms Hesychasm and Hesychast refer to the practice and to the practitioner of a method of mental ascesis that involves the use of the Jesus Prayer assisted by certain psychophysical techniques."
"By the exercise of sobriety (the mental ascesis against tempting thoughts), the Hesychast arrives at a continual practice of the Jesus Prayer with his mind in his heart and where his consciousness is no longer encumbered by the spontaneous inception of images: his mind has a certain stillness and emptiness that is punctuated only by the eternal repetition of the Jesus Prayer.
This stage is called the guard of the mind. This is a very advanced stage of ascetical and spiritual practice, and attempting to accomplish this prematurely, especially with psychophysical techniques, can cause very serious spiritual and emotional harm to the would-be Hesychast."
(Sounds like many of the warnings related to overdoing various yogic practices.)
"The Hesychast usually experiences the contemplation of God as light, the Uncreated Light."
(aka Samadhi.)
And, interestingly, Hesychasm even contains some very AYP-like injunctions against focusing on scenery:
"Any ecstatic states or other unusual phenomena which may occur in the course of Hesychast practice are considered secondary and unimportant, even quite dangerous.
Moreover, seeking after unusual 'spiritual' experiences can itself cause great harm, ruining the soul and the mind of the seeker."
Source: Wikipedia Article on Hesychasm
The Jesus Prayer (central to the practice of Hesychasm, as mentioned above) appears to be somewhat analogous to the mantra in yogic meditation, though coupled with devotional intention (i.e. prayer) as well as simple repetition.
There is quite a bit of information on the Jesus Prayer as well, which also highlights the similarities with meditation / yoga practices:
"In a modern context the continuing repetition is regarded by some as a form of meditation, the prayer functioning as a kind of mantra."
"The practice of the Jesus Prayer is integrated into the mental ascesis undertaken by the Orthodox monastic in the practice of hesychasm. Yet the Jesus Prayer is not limited only to monastic life or to clergy. All members of the Christian Church are advised to practice this prayer, laypeople and clergy, men, women and children."
"The Jesus Prayer is ideally practiced under the guidance and supervision of a spiritual guide especially when Psychosomatic techniques (like rhythmical breath) are incorporated."
"People who say the prayer as part of meditation often synchronize it with their breathing; breathing in while calling out to God (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God) and breathing out while praying for mercy (have mercy on me, a sinner)."
"Another option is to say (orally or mentally) the whole prayer while breathing in and again the whole prayer while breathing out and yet another, to breathe in recite the whole prayer, breathe out while reciting the whole prayer again. One can also hold the breath for a few seconds between breathing in and out. It is advised, in any of these three last cases, that this be done under some kind of spiritual guidance and supervision."
"Monks often pray this prayer many hundreds of times each night as part of their private cell vigil ("cell rule"). Under the guidance of an Elder (Russian Starets; Greek Gerondas), the monk aims to internalize the prayer, so that he is praying unceasingly."
There are three stages of the practice referred to in the tradition:
"1. The oral prayer (the prayer of the lips) is a simple recitation, still external to the practitioner.
"2. The focused prayer, when "the mind is focused upon the words" of the prayer, "speaking them as if they were our own."
"3. The prayer of the heart itself, when the prayer is no longer something we do but who we are."
"Once this is achieved the Jesus Prayer is said to become "self-active". It is repeated automatically and unconsciously by the mind."
Source: Wikipedia Article on the Jesus Prayer |
Edited by - Kirtanman on May 10 2012 6:42:40 PM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2012 : 7:00:55 PM
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Very interesting. 
Thanks.
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2012 : 7:42:01 PM
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Hey K-Man!!
I was very fond of doing the Jesus Prayer during the day, before I found AYP...and I still do the practice from time-to-time in between regular AYP sitting practices as the inspiration arises, self-pacing as necessary...I tend to do the Jesus Prayer now as a way of bringing me back to a center in Inner Silence if I don't have time to do my regular AYP sitting session or if I find myself becoming uncentered in the midst of a busy day.
A wonderful book on the practice and its affects is The Way of A Pilgrim, which I found to be a great read...particularly in the author's descriptions of the effects of the practices in his daily life. The first time I read it, it was amazing to me that the author's experience had so many parallels to my experiences from doing yoga practices. The terminology that he used was a little different, but the experience that he was describing was the same. Hundreds of years ago, different backgrounds, different part of the world, same experience. Great stuff.
Thanks for this
Love you brother
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2012 : 01:56:41 AM
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| thank you Kirtanman....really there are lots of smiliraties |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2012 : 03:39:14 AM
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| Thanks for posting this, Kirtanman! Love it. We also use this method (the Jesus prayer) in the Episcopal Church. My priest in Santa Barbara warned us to exercise caution because "it is a very powerful method and if you overdo it you may find yourself wandering around in a daze in Camarillo" (the farmland/boondocks south of Santa Barbara). When he said this I laughed out loud and he gave me a very stern look and said, "I'm not kidding!" |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2012 : 07:27:48 AM
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A protestant Christian priest who is aware of overload!!
Very cool Radharani, the first I have heard of this crossover, but i bet there are many others, who just use different language than we do. |
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axelschlotzhauer
Germany
150 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2012 : 11:31:04 AM
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I have some experience with Jesus prayer and orthodox liturgy also in the church in different versions. It's interesting also for mantra theory and execution.
First we have to ascertain the word and the origin and possible initiation into the prayer. Seeing films from Mount Athos uniting all orthodox denomination in all countries with houses there and St Katharine`'monastery on mount Sinai protected still by Text of Mohammed I took their frequency as initiation in their rezitation for my German version of Bishop Palmer (?) or so no Kallistos Ware.
Each good initiated mantra is connected with scenery. I succeeded in getting myself the black priest habit and hat kneeling and - new now-having the orthodox cross on my chest making crosses myself. Now not another priest is coming with burning frankincense in the tool for church services fuming me myself bowing.
The catholic use is another nearer to their rosary prayers.
Axel |
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LittleTurtle
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2012 : 2:06:26 PM
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| Great post Kirtanman. I used the Jesus prayer for a brief time many years ago just after a couple of severe personal crises hit me. I was so overwhelmed by circumstances that I could not sit to meditate or even just watch the breath so I did the Jesus prayer while doing daily activities mostly outdoor activities. It really helped me feel calmer and most importantly more centered. Instead of feeling panic and dread I felt love. After several weeks of using it I put it back into my 'toolbox' and went back to my usual spiritual practices. I'm grateful for it. I can see how powerful it could be if overdone but I think since I mostly did it while working in the garden or with my horses it did not put me out on 'planet-nine'. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2012 : 7:24:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Parallax
Hey K-Man!!
I was very fond of doing the Jesus Prayer during the day, before I found AYP...and I still do the practice from time-to-time in between regular AYP sitting practices as the inspiration arises, self-pacing as necessary...I tend to do the Jesus Prayer now as a way of bringing me back to a center in Inner Silence if I don't have time to do my regular AYP sitting session or if I find myself becoming uncentered in the midst of a busy day.
A wonderful book on the practice and its affects is The Way of A Pilgrim, which I found to be a great read...particularly in the author's descriptions of the effects of the practices in his daily life. The first time I read it, it was amazing to me that the author's experience had so many parallels to my experiences from doing yoga practices. The terminology that he used was a little different, but the experience that he was describing was the same. Hundreds of years ago, different backgrounds, different part of the world, same experience. Great stuff.
Thanks for this
Love you brother
Hey Parallax!!
Thanks for all that.
Love you too, Brother.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2012 : 7:25:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Very interesting.
Thanks.
Hey Jeff,
You're welcome - I thought so (very interesting), too.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2012 : 7:27:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Radharani
Thanks for posting this, Kirtanman! Love it. We also use this method (the Jesus prayer) in the Episcopal Church. My priest in Santa Barbara warned us to exercise caution because "it is a very powerful method and if you overdo it you may find yourself wandering around in a daze in Camarillo" (the farmland/boondocks south of Santa Barbara). When he said this I laughed out loud and he gave me a very stern look and said, "I'm not kidding!"
Hi Radharani,
Too funny! Maybe you should talk to him about the concept of self-pacing.
(Might help with not having to retrieve parishioners from Camarillo ...  ) |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2012 : 7:28:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by axelschlotzhauer
I have some experience with Jesus prayer and orthodox liturgy also in the church in different versions. It's interesting also for mantra theory and execution.
First we have to ascertain the word and the origin and possible initiation into the prayer. Seeing films from Mount Athos uniting all orthodox denomination in all countries with houses there and St Katharine`'monastery on mount Sinai protected still by Text of Mohammed I took their frequency as initiation in their rezitation for my German version of Bishop Palmer (?) or so no Kallistos Ware.
Each good initiated mantra is connected with scenery. I succeeded in getting myself the black priest habit and hat kneeling and - new now-having the orthodox cross on my chest making crosses myself. Now not another priest is coming with burning frankincense in the tool for church services fuming me myself bowing.
The catholic use is another nearer to their rosary prayers.
Axel
Very interesting -- thanks, Axel. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2012 : 7:31:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
A protestant Christian priest who is aware of overload!!
Very cool Radharani, the first I have heard of this crossover, but i bet there are many others, who just use different language than we do.
Hi Ether,
I had that same thought.
Though per my original post in this thread, it seems that the Eastern Church is well aware of the possibility of overload, too.
I'm guessing any tradition that makes use of effectively-powerful practices has seen a lot of overload, over the centuries!
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2012 : 7:34:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by LittleTurtle
Great post Kirtanman. I used the Jesus prayer for a brief time many years ago just after a couple of severe personal crises hit me. I was so overwhelmed by circumstances that I could not sit to meditate or even just watch the breath so I did the Jesus prayer while doing daily activities mostly outdoor activities. It really helped me feel calmer and most importantly more centered. Instead of feeling panic and dread I felt love. After several weeks of using it I put it back into my 'toolbox' and went back to my usual spiritual practices. I'm grateful for it. I can see how powerful it could be if overdone but I think since I mostly did it while working in the garden or with my horses it did not put me out on 'planet-nine'.
Hi Little Turtle,
Awesome!!
It's really beautiful how we can be drawn to the right solution, practice-wise, at the right time -- even during times of personal crisis, such as you described.
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axelschlotzhauer
Germany
150 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2012 : 01:45:59 AM
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Kirtanman,
I checked in the meantime your good and convincing analysis of the wikipedia article.
This article, as anyone can write on wikipedia, is no authentic hesychastic source knowing their practice but a well informed yogi.
But also in this realm he is lacking experience and presumably also the necessary practice. The states of primordial nature or uncreated or Taborlight is not everyday experience of most people. As scenery no great problem get it every day when you found the track for it as my scenery with the Jesus prayer producing yesterday a procession with Jesus bearing the cross on the way to crucifixion.
But such content and results of practice how to get it as in the way of the pilgrim is not reported if this story is not pure fiction basing on experience.
The hypothesis of a Sufi influence is not reported. Indeed the breathing technique could be done in the way of Allahu or a mourning in saying being a sinner. Heard lastly a breath exercise of them weeping by love to god getting aggressive also. Wonderful complete breathes through the whole body.
Axel
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2012 : 02:56:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by axelschlotzhauer
Kirtanman,
I checked in the meantime your good and convincing analysis of the wikipedia article.
This article, as anyone can write on wikipedia, is no authentic hesychastic source knowing their practice but a well informed yogi.
But also in this realm he is lacking experience and presumably also the necessary practice. The states of primordial nature or uncreated or Taborlight is not everyday experience of most people. As scenery no great problem get it every day when you found the track for it as my scenery with the Jesus prayer producing yesterday a procession with Jesus bearing the cross on the way to crucifixion.
But such content and results of practice how to get it as in the way of the pilgrim is not reported if this story is not pure fiction basing on experience.
The hypothesis of a Sufi influence is not reported. Indeed the breathing technique could be done in the way of Allahu or a mourning in saying being a sinner. Heard lastly a breath exercise of them weeping by love to god getting aggressive also. Wonderful complete breathes through the whole body.
Axel
My dear brother Axel,
Thanks for all the stuff you have shared. I really wish I could understand what you are saying, but unfortunately I can't due to apparent translation difficulties. There is definitely a language barrier here, but I get a really good vibe from you, bro. Thanks for being here. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2012 : 6:12:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by axelschlotzhauer
Kirtanman,
I checked in the meantime your good and convincing analysis of the wikipedia article.
This article, as anyone can write on wikipedia, is no authentic hesychastic source knowing their practice but a well informed yogi.
But also in this realm he is lacking experience and presumably also the necessary practice. The states of primordial nature or uncreated or Taborlight is not everyday experience of most people. As scenery no great problem get it every day when you found the track for it as my scenery with the Jesus prayer producing yesterday a procession with Jesus bearing the cross on the way to crucifixion.
But such content and results of practice how to get it as in the way of the pilgrim is not reported if this story is not pure fiction basing on experience.
The hypothesis of a Sufi influence is not reported. Indeed the breathing technique could be done in the way of Allahu or a mourning in saying being a sinner. Heard lastly a breath exercise of them weeping by love to god getting aggressive also. Wonderful complete breathes through the whole body.
Axel
Hi Axel,
I figure: Wikipedia articles just serve as a decent baseline, for basic information.
I did a bit of additional Googling, to determine whether or not that information seemed to be generally representative of Hesychasm, and, as far as I can tell, it seems to be.
If you have any additional sources or links which you feel provide better information, by all means, please feel free to post them; topic threads like this ideally become repositories of a variety of information on the given topic ... "the more the merrier", information-resource-wise, I feel.
I also noticed some of the seeming similarities between Hesychasm and the Sufi practice of Dhikr (or Zikr, as it is often spelled), but am not familiar with whether or not Hesychasm was directly influenced by Sufism.
Obviously, there has been a lot of "cross-pollination" between the various spiritual traditions of the world, especially with respect to what is effective -- and mantra-like repetition of certain sounds has proven to be of universal human benefit, regardless of the specific tradition which makes use of such practices.
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axelschlotzhauer
Germany
150 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2012 : 07:20:39 AM
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Have not the time doing a more complete.
I don't agree that english wikipedia gives basic information . the german wikipedia though incomplete also is much better but lacks the prayer stages. The string of Lili on Russian orthodoxy compares also with Jewish und sufi influenced Theresa of Avila. She shall be influenced in her chakra or cabala tree ascent till the top of the body by the seven streets to god by Rudolf of Biberach to be found also in Wikipedia.
There also Kallistos Ware with fundamental text causing me the spiritual weepng and donum lacrimarum and seeing the levitated Christ walking over the ground meeting the sinners and ill people. This is the situation meant by the heart prayer with its trinitarian components on brahma and ishta level.
different types of prayers are included like the psalmist cry for help (hurry to help me).
I don't think that St. Paul in his uninterrupted during tentmaking used these words. But he prayed and contemplated the different people in the towns he sent letters. But he fulfilled the rule of short prayer and words against the pagan noise of many words.
Axel
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Jai
United Kingdom
12 Posts |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2012 : 08:15:18 AM
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| Thanks Jai! |
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Jai
United Kingdom
12 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2012 : 10:31:05 AM
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St. Simeon the New Theologian:
"Sit alone in a quiet place, take your mind from every temporal and vain thing, bow your head towards your chest and stay attentively inside yourself, not in the head but in the heart, and hold the mind there with your eyes watch your breathing. With your mind find the place of the heart and let it abide there. In the beginning you will experience darkness and discomfort, but if you will continue with this activity of attention without interruption, you will attain unceasing joy."
Here's some more links on The Prayer of the Heart from other traditions you may find interesting .....
On the Indestructible Drop within the Heart,
Consciousness as the Mind of Clear Light & the Empty Space Particles
http://www.zeropoint.ca/monadsI5DalaiLama.htm
Lataif Chakras of The Heart |Sufism
http://www.nurmuhammad.com/HeartLev...sofheart.htm
Sufi Cosmology, Psychology and Lataif
http://www.bahaistudies.net/asma/su...ychology.pdf
The Subtle Centres of the Heart
by Abu Bakr Siraj ad Din Cook
http://www.almirajsuficentre.org.au...0Centres.htm
'The first step is that of purest prayer.
From this there comes a warmth of heart,
And then a strange, a holy energy,
Then tears wrung from the heart, God given.
Then peace from thoughts of every kind.
From this arises purging of the intellect,
And next the vision of heavenly mysteries.
Unheard- of light is born from this ineffably,
And thence, beyond all telling the heart's illumination.
Last comes- a step that has no limit
Though compassed in a single line-
Perfection that is endless.'
salaam.
Jai
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Jai
United Kingdom
12 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2012 : 1:53:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
Thanks Jai!
Your most welcome.X
Jai |
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The_seeker
Canada
27 Posts |
Posted - Aug 22 2012 : 10:47:46 PM
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There are many books on the market with respect to Jesus/Heart/Mind prayer (there are many titles under which you can find it). Unfortunately, there aren’t many reliable texts giving detailed, technical indications.
The Philokalia is one of the few reliable text on the subject. It is a collection of texts written between the 4th and 15th centuries by spiritual masters of the Eastern Orthodox tradition (most of them hermits living isolated lives). They were originally written for the guidance and instruction of monks in the practice of the contemplative life.
Amazingly, there are so many similarities between their practices and yoga (asanas/metania, pranayama/controlled breathing, jappa/repetition of the heart prayer, solar centering enhancement/ focusing attention on the heart or abdominal area and so on). They speak (of course in their specific dogmatic language) of stages of samadhi and even symptoms of the kundalini are being described with an amazing clarity.
One of the most important ingredients in achieving their goal is “HUMILITY” (They say that the mind has to join the heart and to obtain a state where the prayer is being recited by itself…it’s about, probably a state of supreme samadhi). They say that you have to tear your heart up (figuratively) and to deeply cry your sins in order to get the prayer working. They believe that when you are clean enough (through the practice), the holy spirit (samadhi) comes and dwells you.
I’ve had the privilege to meet some wonderful romanian monks during my spiritual trips in the Carpathians mountains and I can say I was really, really amazed of their deepness and their superb, simple lives.
Anyway, if you are interested in the subject, Philokalia is the text you have to get your hand on. There are 12 thick volumes, but do not get discouraged, if you are interested specifically in the technique, get the 5th volume and enjoy the “heart prayer”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIhk7btxJek : Here you can find some details on Jesus prayer given by elder Cleopa, a monk that lived as hermit in total isolation, in the Carpathians mountains for more than a decade.
Love
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milosm
Yugoslavia
1 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2014 : 05:11:42 AM
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| I think the mystical practice of hesychasm is inseparable from the context of Orthodox theology and dogmatic. There is a genial book about that called "Mystical theology of Eastern church" by Vladimir Lossky. |
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Hesychasm - Meditation in Eastern Christianity
