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chas
USA
209 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 19 2012 : 10:51:26 PM
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To be clear, I didn't say we can't make choices or don't have choices to make. Yes, we have choices. And a choice not to choose is still a choice. I did not say that the recognition of the falseness of the free will concept absolves a person of responsibility. Actions still have consequences. If that is the conclusion one comes up with, I'd suggest to dig deeper, look closer. And regardless of "I /no I", the data is as conclusive as anything is. The decisions you made are made before you are aware of them. The thoughts occurring to you arose from complex processes you are not aware of. Whether we are talking about unconscious/subconscious or conscious thoughts, you did not think the thoughts into existence.
A humans freedom to choose is more like a spectrum with little freedom on one end, and a lot on the other (not infinite or close to infinite.)
So, keeping it real, human-wise, it appears that some of us tend to make better choices than others. I'd say it is *more like* some of us are more or less free to make [insert your chosen descriptive term here] choices than others. It seems most or all of us have some degree of "inner silence" or witnessing capability. For example, if a voice in my head suggests I should go and kick that dog, I'm probably not going to comply under normal circumstances, even in the absence of a moral code suggesting I should not do that. This thought is an object I'm aware of. I'm not identified with it. I don't believe it's true, or a good idea. However, it is conceivable that someone at the far less free side of the choice spectrum might actually go kick the dog if it occurred to him or her. We can't know what exactly compelled them to do this. We can't correctly presume that if we were that consciousness in that body, with that history, that conditioning, those thoughts, those impulses, etc., that we would not have kicked that dog. And que the advaitic perspective...:D But we don't have to go there- here. If it happened, clearly there were causes to it happening, and we can be pretty sure it was not the witnessing consciousness, the I, the me, or any of these. In a very optimistic scenario, maybe we are really good detectives and there happens to be a plausible, although partial explanation. Maybe we do some research and find out the person was raised in a family who raised fighting dogs. From the time the dog kicker was a small child, he or she was taught to kick dogs. So, we have a habitual dog kicker. A learned behavior. Okay, so let's look at the kicker's parents and what caused their behavior? How many generations shall we go back? 7? More? What about society and all the influences exerted on all of these people by them..Hmmm... this is quite a large order. But, we have to find someone to be responsible, right? Well, we can't possibly do that, so normally we punish the dog kicker we know. Choices , choices... We could try to gain some understanding of the situation and help change the circumstances. And this is not about dog kicker's, its about all of us.
I'd say some increasing inner silence in the world would be a very good development. None of this implies that we wouldn't separate those known to cause harm from society. Of course we would, that's common sense. But no need to kick them (or judge, blame, punish, etc..), right? Oh, but what of deterrence?... I'm not suggesting we totally rewrite the "moral codes". Or maybe I am. ;) Either way, it makes sense to pay attention and make some improvements around here, if we can. :) |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Apr 20 2012 : 04:41:05 AM
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We have no control of our moral codes either. We have a nature, a collection of thoughts experiences, values, beliefs and memories.
Free will we have in so far as our nature is concerned, but don't mistake that for control, we have no control of our thoughts, dreams, birth, death or the world around us. It is the thought we have control that brings the suffering because we continually find it isn't true.
Free will is according to our nature. Regardless if you are making the decisions at a deeper level, the decisions are based on your nature. Your nature changes with time and so the decisions alter. You don't continually make the same decision and that is because of your expanding memory of experiences. You are in constant change, not static. When neurology is looked at, it assumes a constant, but it's a brief snapshot of a changing scene.
What does it matter if you change the people around you ? It's unimportant. What changes happen, happen and that's fine, we just concentrate on what we are doing and forget any interaction. Every action has a reaction, we make the waves no matter what we do or don't do, think or don't think, we ride a mixture of all the waves in the universe, they are infinite and infinitely changing, this is why there is no control. It's quantum entanglement
King Canute found that out a long time ago. He had the free will to place his chair at the edge of the incoming tide, he had free will to believe he could hold back the tide, but that was according to his nature. He had no control over his nature, neither did he have control over the sea.
So we have free will to meditate, but we have no control of our nature that compels us to mediate. A consequence of the myriad of infinite cosmic changes reacts with our nature and it seems we decide something.
Place a drop of water on a mountain top and it will run down a certain path according to the complex physics involved. Keep running droplets down the mountain and in time they will wear a groove, then the drops of water will always run in that groove.
You might then wonder if we really have free will at all, well if the universe was unchanging and static then we wouldn't. But, because it is in constant flux and the patterns are totally random then we do have free will in each and every moment. It might only be an illusion of free will, but that really doesn't matter. |
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Delara
Lebanon
305 Posts |
Posted - Apr 20 2012 : 06:20:16 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
It's really funny to me, seeing this topic today. I haven't had much time lately to read the recent posts (working a 72hr week this week), and I haven't read any of the responses (so forgive me if this has already been said), but I find it too synchronistic to happen across this post today and not write anything.
Just yesterday afternoon I had one of those "Woa! It all makes sense!" realizations. When these happen it is usually very hard to put words to it in a way that does the realization any justice, but I'll try, as it directly relates to this topic from my perspective.
quote:
they tell you,there's nothing wrong with the world...It's God's Lila...Wooow great recipe to accept evil & slavery!
Here's what happened yesterday. I'm driving home from a friend's house (9 times out of 10 I am driving when I have a "realization"...wondering if I should become a long haul trucker or something  ) and all of a sudden, out of nowhere, there is a shift in seeing. {Please bear with me as I struggle to put this all to words} This shift was not a shift in seeing with my eyes, or a shift in seeing with my mind (necessarily), but this shift of seeing was of the body. The only way I can say what shifted is to say that in this "realization" there was a deep inner knowing embodied in each molecule of my body, that Life is conscious of itself. That no thought, no movement, no reaction, no gust of wind, no word, no interaction... absolutely everything, is happening for a reason and there are no "accidents." It became *very* obvious that "The Whole" (whatever you want to call it... I generally just use the word "Life") is absolutely aware of itself and nothing is hidden from "It's" view.
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that "Life" is something separate from me, or you, or the kitchen floor because we as humans are not always very aware of ourselves... we, everything, is "This"... it's all the same on the macro level. The differences, appear to only exist on the "thought" level and on the "awareness" level (meaning that some "things" are more aware of "The Whole" than others and we as humans have a tendency to believe erroneous thoughts that are not necessarily true on the macro level).
As this "realization" settled into the body I couldn't help but laugh like a crazy person. The reason for this laughter was because I could see with stunning clarity, all the suffering I have been putting myself through over the years. It was obvious that the suffering was "necessary" (in order to bring me to this moment now) but also that it was completely unnecessary in that the suffering was all self-imposed. I have been suffering because I have believing thoughts that Life must be unaware of what is happening, at least in some areas.... that "It" *doesn't* know what it's doing. But as this shift of seeing happened, it became so incredibly obvious that Life absolutely *does* know what it's doing, that I couldn't help but laugh at myself and how ridiculous it is for me to have suffered over the fact that I believed things needed to be different. And when I say "different" I mean everything from the placement of a toothbrush to the murders that happen everyday around the globe.
The result of this shift in seeing is still being integrated, and this integration could take the rest of my living days for all I know, but the result at this point has been an utter rest of the mind like I have never experienced before. There is such a profound sense of peace about it all that it can not be accurately described in words... or at least I can't do it. It has left me with such an overwhelming sense of love and compassion for everything that I almost don't feel like "myself." Like I am now someone/something new. To me, this is how we solve wars, and murder and rape and all the bad stuff that happens in the world. We work on ourselves so that we become beacons of love and compassion, and we share that with the world around us. We can't change others. We can't change how another feels or reacts. But we can change ourselves so that we are in a place where we can be shining examples of the world we would like to see. And *this* is why we do yoga. At least from my perspective.
I realize that this is not an understanding that I can give to another.... that this sense of peace has to come from inside each and every one of us. So I realize that all that is said here is just a bunch of words and doesn't change anything. But I thought I would share anyway as I have recently been going through a bit of a "Why am I doing yoga?" phase myself. And now I know. Personally, I really think that yoga really needs to be approached with a relaxed perspective, one that has no expectations and one that is not forced in any way. I understand how easy it is to say that and how hard that is to achieve in actuality, but I really think we are holding ourselves back with these ideas about doing yoga for bliss or for enlightenment or for peace or for anything else. Who knows why we do ANYTHING, yoga or anything else. It's ridiculously obvious to me now that all we can do is what we are inclined to do, and that all our reasons and motivations really mean squat in the grand scheme. If you aren't inclined to do yoga, then don't. But stay open to the possibility of feeling inclined to do it in the future. Don't think too much about it. Do what you do and enjoy every moment. There are no accidents.
One last thing to this already stupidly long post. With regards to control... in this shift there was a new understanding about control. I had previously had a belief that all control is an illusion. That's not entirely true. The only control we have is the control we apply. Outside of that, it's all out of our hands. You control you. You don't control the outcomes of your controlling actions, but you control you. At least that is how it is seen right now.
Sorry for the long post.
Lots of love to you, Delara and All.
Love,
Carson 
Carson!who are you man?the energy in your reply kept me shivering for few minutes even after moving from the screen
Somehow I understood every word you said...I'll come back later and re-read your reply and others once my head functions back again
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Apr 20 2012 : 07:59:56 AM
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| Karl, I agree with most of what you wrote. I think the difference is our definition of "me". I think of "me" as being the point of awareness that is the end product of all those karmas, influences, and lessons i have gone through. So of course I would make choices based upon those things. But many times I make a choice that purposely goes against all of those influences just to see what happens. The outcome is quite interesting and insightful to see who "I" am. And to me, that indicates I have freedom of choice. |
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Delara
Lebanon
305 Posts |
Posted - Apr 20 2012 : 09:38:43 AM
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Thank you all for your comments.
It seems as someone has suggested I need a time out ...not only from any spiritual practice but also from reading spiritual writing & that includes being around here in the forum.
Love |
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chas
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - Apr 20 2012 : 10:03:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
We have no control of our moral codes either.
 Of course. Just influence.
quote:
King Canute found that out a long time ago. He had the free will to place his chair at the edge of the incoming tide, he had free will to believe he could hold back the tide, but that was according to his nature. He had no control over his nature, neither did he have control over the sea.
Allegedly. But maybe Canute wasn't so ignorant & arrogant.
quote:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cnut...t#section_11
Henry of Huntingdon, the 12th-century chronicler, tells how Cnut set his throne by the sea shore and commanded the tide to halt and not wet his feet and robes. Yet "continuing to rise as usual [the tide] dashed over his feet and legs without respect to his royal person. Then the king leapt backwards, saying: 'Let all men know how empty and worthless is the power of kings, for there is none worthy of the name, but He whom heaven, earth, and sea obey by eternal laws.' He then hung his gold crown on a crucifix, and never wore it again "to the honour of God the almighty King".[94] This incident is usually misrepresented by popular commentators and politicians as an example of Cnut's arrogance.[95]
This story may be apocryphal. While the contemporary Encomium Emmae has no mention of it, it would seem that so pious a dedication might have been recorded there, since the same source gives an "eye-witness account of his lavish gifts to the monasteries and poor of St Omer when on the way to Rome, and of the tears and breast-beating which accompanied them".[54]Goscelin, writing later in the 11th century, instead has Cnut place his crown on a crucifix at Winchester one Easter, with no mention of the sea, and "with the explanation that the king of kings was more worthy of it than he".[54] Nevertheless, there may be a "basis of fact, in a planned act of piety"[54] behind this story, and Henry of Huntingdon cites it as an example of the king's "nobleness and greatness of mind."[94] Later historians repeated the story, most of them adjusting it to have Cnut more clearly aware that the tides would not obey him, and staging the scene to rebuke the flattery of his courtiers; and there are earlier Celtic parallels in stories of men who commanded the tides, namely Saint Illtud, Maelgwn, king of Gwynedd, and Tuirbe, of Tuirbe's Strand, in Brittany.[96]
The encounter with the waves is said to have taken place at Thorn-eye (Thorn Island), or Southampton in Hampshire. There were and are numerous islands so named, including at Westminster and Bosham in West Sussex, both places closely associated with Cnut. According to the House of Commons Information Office,[97] Cnut set up a Royal palace during his reign on Thorney Island (later to become known as Westminster) as the area was sufficiently far away from the busy settlement to the east known as London. It is believed that, on this site, Cnut tried to command the tide of the river to prove to his courtiers that they were fools to think that he could command the waves.[98] Conflictingly, a sign on Southampton city centre's Canute Road reads, "Near this spot AD 1028 Canute reproved his courtiers".[99][100]
On control, I think we pretty much agree. Let go of the wheel.
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Edited by - chas on Apr 20 2012 10:08:51 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Apr 20 2012 : 10:51:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by chas
quote:
Originally posted by karl
We have no control of our moral codes either.
Of course. Just influence.
On control, I think we pretty much agree. Let go of the wheel.
Yes, but only in the moment, it is added to the rest and compiled. Once the moment has gone it becomes part of an evolution. Each moment balanced on the memories of the past.
On the wheel it was never ours to give, but we have to give it up to realise it. |
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Delara
Lebanon
305 Posts |
Posted - Apr 20 2012 : 4:21:52 PM
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"When I don't make this decision, I always default to doing only what I HAVE to do and nothing more. This makes an unbalanced life, with a slight feeling that something is wrong, but there is nothing telling me what needs to change until I seek it out and decide what action to take."
I can relate to that.
"The problem with teaching people that we have no control or no free will, is that they can assume they are not responsible or don't need a moral code."
It's a down point isn't it?that's why I admire sufism,one thing I've noticed among all seekers on that path is the high moral & ethics they have.
"PS Delara,
I agree we don't want to surrender ourselves to "higher beings" and become slaves! Fortunately we can always change our mind when we have made a mistake. And we would know it if someone is enslaving us, and do something about it.
Lucky for us that AYP is about as far as you can get from a guru enslaving us. "
good hint.It's easy to identify physical slavery,mental slavery...But when it comes to spiritual,it's difficult to pinpoint.But once one's convinced there's no free will..then it's easy to enslave that person!...at least in the beginning
Etherfish thanx for the beautiful answer.I came back to it for I felt I relate.
Love
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 21 2012 : 10:20:06 AM
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Dear Carson
quote:
One last thing to this already stupidly long post. With regards to control... in this shift there was a new understanding about control. I had previously had a belief that all control is an illusion. That's not entirely true. The only control we have is the control we apply. Outside of that, it's all out of our hands. You control you. You don't control the outcomes of your controlling actions, but you control you. At least that is how it is seen right now.
Thanks for your deep sharing.
It is very touching for me to witness another human being shifting into a deeper Trust in Life.
With regards to control:
I can say that we are all responsible for ourselves. This word....responsibility......is much more potent than the word control. The word "responsibility" speaks of a willingness to engage from a place of integrity, it speaks of honesty within oneself, it speaks of a pure intention, and - it allows for everyone to be totally in line with where we are at all times.
To trust life like you describe in your insight is very beautiful. The result is (unless one hunts for the experience over the implication it speaks of), that one can - with all ones heart - apply oneself to being lived from where one actually is. Then what needs further looking, further investigation......will always be revealed.This is the alignment. Not where one is according to someone elses realizations (including whatever is written in any scripture or voiced by any awakened being), but where one is according to ones own "innerness".
This is to be totally responsible for oneself. Mysteriously enough it somehow organically includes everyone and everything else.
One can say that this is for the first time to be in control, but
I somehow resonate more with saying that this deepening is to be in the embrace that over time renders all ideas of control mute.
Much love Carson.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Apr 21 2012 : 10:37:37 AM
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| Beautiful Katrine. The word reponsible IS a far better word. Control is confusing. We give up the idea control and gain total control by not having any control is an idea that I have found difficult to verbalise. Repnsibility is a perfect half way house. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Apr 21 2012 : 11:05:25 AM
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Yes, responsibility, integrity, honesty - good concepts that are rarely spoken of today.
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"We have no control of our moral codes either"
I have to disagree here. Religions are full of moral codes. Members of those religions follow them, or don't follow them, or try to and falter etc. Sounds like control to me. If we are not successful at controlling our
morals it doesn't mean we are not able, unless we are mentally ill.
If you try to follow a moral code for years and finally give up, does that mean you didn't have the ability? I don't think so. It means you CHOSE to not try anymore.
Where the codes come from are influences, but whether to follow them is a choice. Criminals and saints both come from the same religion. Upstanding citizens and murderers grew up as identical twins. Sure they have different karma in a past life (if you subscribe to that), but the first day a soul is created it had no karma, and began making choices that created karma.
How can we learn anything from karma if we don't have the ability to make choices? And isn't that what karma is for, to teach us to make better choices, by showing us the consequences of our choices? |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Apr 21 2012 : 2:34:39 PM
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I know, its not an easy perspective to understand. Once you let go it is obvious and its necessary to let go of everything once started. Even the things that are so important, the very definition of what we are. Leaving any of it in place means the attachment is still as strong as if nothing had been released at all.
It's a gradual weakening and that's what DM seems to do, it makes the attachment weaker and weaker, until it can be cast off.
It does not matter if there is choice, free will, responsibility, morals., control. All that is from one view point and it makes perfect sense from that view and redundant from another.
I don't think it's possible to explain it, you have to let go first and see that it's all just so much bigger than you can imagine and you can't let go until its time to let go and that just the way things are. All in good time.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Apr 21 2012 : 3:48:55 PM
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"It does not matter if there is choice, free will, responsibility, morals., control. All that is from one view point and it makes perfect sense from that view and redundant from another."
Now that I completely understand, and have no argument with.
It's when you try to mix conclusions from one viewpoint with another that you get in trouble. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Apr 21 2012 : 3:59:41 PM
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very well said karl
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Apr 21 2012 : 5:31:04 PM
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A question Karl,
I am guessing that from a mundane world view a moral code is necessary because that person feels disconnected from everyone else.
So the other viewpoint you speak of would be one where a moral code is not necessary because we see we are all connected, there is outpouring love, and that person wouldn't be any more likely to hurt someone else than someone with a mundane view would cut off their own hand? Am I understanding correctly? |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Apr 21 2012 : 6:46:29 PM
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Hi Katrine and All,
Yes, responsibility is a much better word than control. And what's becoming more and more obvious to me is that it becomes increasingly difficult to be fully responsible for oneself when trying to fit our own experience into another's paradigm. It seems to me, that at a certain point we have to stop trying to walk someone else's path, embrace the uncertainty, and become truly authentic to our own experience. Obviously the paradigms are useful (some more than others) but eventually we have to be fully where we are and stop trying to validate our own experience by aligning it with another's.
What also feels true in this respect is that in order for the discarding of all paradigms to be fruitful, we have to be at a place where we can deeply trust Life. Without that trust, the uncertainty will likely be unbearable.
Anyway, enough jibber jabber... less talk, more walk.
Thanks as always for sharing your clarity with us.
Love,
Carson |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Apr 22 2012 : 05:23:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
A question Karl,
I am guessing that from a mundane world view a moral code is necessary because that person feels disconnected from everyone else.
So the other viewpoint you speak of would be one where a moral code is not necessary because we see we are all connected, there is outpouring love, and that person wouldn't be any more likely to hurt someone else than someone with a mundane view would cut off their own hand? Am I understanding correctly?
I have never really questioned why it's necessary to have that viewpoint, it's just like the shell around an egg. It necessary because it is necessary. For a time it's home and safety and the whole world and then one day it's just a fractured piece of redundant material without any use.
I don't think it's a mundane undstanding either, it's the perfect and correct understanding at the time.
When you say ' hurt' that is like trying to describe 3 dimensions with 2 dimensional words. This is because you are still in the shell and are trying to understand the outside of the shell by your understanding of the inside the shell You don't want to give up the protection just yet because the time isn't right and it will only be time when it is and that is how it has to be.
When you let go of the belief that you have control then you see the endless, Infine, reactions of everything interacting with everything. It's impossible not to interact, even if you sat still in an empty piece of space you will still be interacting. It's like the nerves of the body, they only transmit impulses, they do not transmit pleasure or pain, they just go about the business of sending signals here and there. We perceive the signals as pain and pleasure but they are not that at all.
The outpouring of love isn't personal, it's universal, it's like a uniform gas, it exists because awareness needs 'I' and 'I' needs awareness, from there blossoms pure love. It is bound in the structure of what is, it's like the oxygen we breath, fundamental and sort of flat, we interpret it and think we own it and control it, that we can gift it and give it, we put conditions on it, create types of it, give it flavours and smells, ration it.
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Delara
Lebanon
305 Posts |
Posted - Apr 22 2012 : 07:39:50 AM
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A friend of mine shared that link with me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTrJ...FAAAAAAAAAAA
Although I'm not having any stroke but obviously I might have been shifting between the two states of the hemispheres
Yes it's peaceful & beautiful beyond description but when it comes to logic,rational thinking,memory...I'm experiencing a severe drop in all of that...Even in vocabulary,grammar...etc
which makes it hard to function properly in the world,I personally have lot of responsibilities & those I shall take care of,I'm not sure I want this if I have a choice.
I'll wait & see...maybe see & wait :)
& on a side note...Yes moral code is very important any other opinion is just philosophy. A truly so-called enlightened doesn't hurt even with a word...you hear nothing but kind words from them.I've put three of them to the test few times :)
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Edited by - Delara on Apr 22 2012 08:14:59 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Apr 22 2012 : 08:08:27 AM
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Thank you Delara, that was a beautiful video . Those TED lectures are fantastic. I have
Listened to several of them and that's a new one. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Apr 22 2012 : 8:18:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi Katrine and All,
Yes, responsibility is a much better word than control. And what's becoming more and more obvious to me is that it becomes increasingly difficult to be fully responsible for oneself when trying to fit our own experience into another's paradigm. It seems to me, that at a certain point we have to stop trying to walk someone else's path, embrace the uncertainty, and become truly authentic to our own experience. Obviously the paradigms are useful (some more than others) but eventually we have to be fully where we are and stop trying to validate our own experience by aligning it with another's.
What also feels true in this respect is that in order for the discarding of all paradigms to be fruitful, we have to be at a place where we can deeply trust Life. Without that trust, the uncertainty will likely be unbearable.
Hi Carson,
This isn't to you, just putting a perspective out there.
Has it ever been someone else's path other than my own that I have walked, not sure that is possible? Yoga, meditation, inquiry [insert practice] coming along at a time in my life when it was the perfect fit for what was needed to see through layers of beliefs and thoughts. And quickly too! Applied a unique way within each individual.
Nothing belongs to another person, another person's path is only what we imagine it to be. Maybe we gather here because we are walking along (some like to run) a similar path together for a while? It is still authentic and unique to each "person". Whatever gets a person to the point where they begin yoga and where they head afterwards is unique to the needs of the individual as well.
So we walk the familiar path of yoga for a while, lot's of nice sign posts and directions along the way, thank you for yoga, inquiry and meditation! Then afterwards, the walking may still be with these or another way guided by the heart and life experiences, what is needed now is always given. Life directs, we flow with resistance or not, doesn't matter, always has and always will.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Apr 22 2012 : 9:05:10 PM
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Hi Anthem
Yes, we can only walk our own path, but the problem for me is when I try to align my path with another's that I have put on a pedestal. Trying to match my experience to my interpretation of another's experience leaves me feeling like I am lacking in some way and I feel it is easy to get stuck there (in the feeling of lacking something). Seems to be the nature of (at least my) mind to want to validate my own experiences by aligning them with others who inspire me.
What I was trying to indicate with the post you quoted, was that for me, at this point, I have to let go of trying to align my experience with anyone else's. The desire to validate my path by trying to replicate the experiences of another needed to be dropped so that I could be free to just experience Life the way I do. Trying to fit my own experience into my interpretation of what another's experience is, mainly for the sake of validation and comfort, does not serve me or anyone else. Doing this only breeds inauthenticity in my experience.
I wasn't trying to say that the "yoga paradigm" is not useful, nor that it is not useful the entire length of the journey... was just trying to point to the fact that, for me, trying to fit my experience into the "yoga framework" (or any framework) is only causing me to feel like I am stuck inside a box (and as a friend of mine's favorite shirt reads, "Time to erase the box" ). For me, the framework has to be personal or else I am just trying to walk another's path. At least that how it feels in this moment. Always subject to change.
Thanks for sharing your perspective.
Love!
Carson |
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Delara
Lebanon
305 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2012 : 01:01:34 AM
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Bhakti sux!I know I'm overloading but donno how to take a break
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Delara
Lebanon
305 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2012 : 03:37:03 AM
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Hey Karl,I'm glad you like the video.
Yesterday night I woke up while the body was still sleeping.Something was looking through me.I saw a light emitting from my forehead towards my sister forehead whose head for some reason was towards me on the same level with my head...As usual I woke up not sure what happened or if that actually happened.
My sis wakes up with an unusual terrible pain in her forehead while I feel better and the light I see in my head when I close my eyes is lessened.
I'm not sure what to feel... grateful for feeling better or sorry for what my sis has to go through 
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2012 : 09:26:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi Anthem
Yes, we can only walk our own path, but the problem for me is when I try to align my path with another's that I have put on a pedestal. Trying to match my experience to my interpretation of another's experience leaves me feeling like I am lacking in some way and I feel it is easy to get stuck there (in the feeling of lacking something). Seems to be the nature of (at least my) mind to want to validate my own experiences by aligning them with others who inspire me.
Hi Carson,
Funny, last night the information showed up that I could have added that another person's path is only a problem if we try to live it for ourselves, thinking that it is the way it should be, without being true to our own inner nature and recognizing that each person's path will be unique. You have already expressed it now perfectly, so we are all set. I have definitely wasted energy on this too.
The other problem that can come along for people on a clear path like yoga is when ideas or thoughts about how things should be or what practices need to be tweaked or changed come along and interfere before the person has the ability to discern between thoughts and inner guidance from the heart. This can lead to lots of zigzagging and wasted time. In my case, there was no choice other than to continue on in an unknown direction guided from within, so it was clear in that sense that this was the only way to go.
quote:
What I was trying to indicate with the post you quoted, was that for me, at this point, I have to let go of trying to align my experience with anyone else's. The desire to validate my path by trying to replicate the experiences of another needed to be dropped so that I could be free to just experience Life the way I do. Trying to fit my own experience into my interpretation of what another's experience is, mainly for the sake of validation and comfort, does not serve me or anyone else. Doing this only breeds inauthenticity in my experience.
Makes sense.
quote:
I wasn't trying to say that the "yoga paradigm" is not useful, nor that it is not useful the entire length of the journey... was just trying to point to the fact that, for me, trying to fit my experience into the "yoga framework" (or any framework) is only causing me to feel like I am stuck inside a box (and as a friend of mine's favorite shirt reads, "Time to erase the box" ). For me, the framework has to be personal or else I am just trying to walk another's path. At least that how it feels in this moment. Always subject to change.
I didn't get the impression that you were trying to say yoga isn't useful. I agree, each person depending on where they jump into yoga, will have completely different experiences with it. Ecstasy or the absence of it, large jumps in silence or bliss all depend on what was relatively present in the body before. The more the internal division, the more the intense these experiences can be. From my perspective that is.
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Delara
Lebanon
305 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2012 : 01:46:02 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi Anthem
Yes, we can only walk our own path, but the problem for me is when I try to align my path with another's that I have put on a pedestal. Trying to match my experience to my interpretation of another's experience leaves me feeling like I am lacking in some way and I feel it is easy to get stuck there (in the feeling of lacking something). Seems to be the nature of (at least my) mind to want to validate my own experiences by aligning them with others who inspire me.
Hi Carson,
Funny, last night the information showed up that I could have added that another person's path is only a problem if we try to live it for ourselves, thinking that it is the way it should be, without being true to our own inner nature and recognizing that each person's path will be unique. You have already expressed it now perfectly, so we are all set. I have definitely wasted energy on this too.
The other problem that can come along for people on a clear path like yoga is when ideas or thoughts about how things should be or what practices need to be tweaked or changed come along and interfere before the person has the ability to discern between thoughts and inner guidance from the heart. This can lead to lots of zigzagging and wasted time. In my case, there was no choice other than to continue on in an unknown direction guided from within, so it was clear in that sense that this was the only way to go.
quote:
What I was trying to indicate with the post you quoted, was that for me, at this point, I have to let go of trying to align my experience with anyone else's. The desire to validate my path by trying to replicate the experiences of another needed to be dropped so that I could be free to just experience Life the way I do. Trying to fit my own experience into my interpretation of what another's experience is, mainly for the sake of validation and comfort, does not serve me or anyone else. Doing this only breeds inauthenticity in my experience.
Makes sense.
quote:
I wasn't trying to say that the "yoga paradigm" is not useful, nor that it is not useful the entire length of the journey... was just trying to point to the fact that, for me, trying to fit my experience into the "yoga framework" (or any framework) is only causing me to feel like I am stuck inside a box (and as a friend of mine's favorite shirt reads, "Time to erase the box" ). For me, the framework has to be personal or else I am just trying to walk another's path. At least that how it feels in this moment. Always subject to change.
I didn't get the impression that you were trying to say yoga isn't useful. I agree, each person depending on where they jump into yoga, will have completely different experiences with it. Ecstasy or the absence of it, large jumps in silence or bliss all depend on what was relatively present in the body before. The more the internal division, the more the intense these experiences can be. From my perspective that is.
A
Hello Anthem;
thanx for your comment.With all respect,I have to say if I understood correctly then I definitely don't agree with you.
"Seems to be the nature of (at least my) mind to want to validate my own experiences by aligning them with others who inspire me."
I can't see what's the problem here.You learn from experience whether it's your own or someone else.& if one's having similar symptoms then probably one's going on the similar direction.
"The more the internal division, the more the intense these experiences can be. From my perspective that is."
Yes there's part which is related to personal inner obstacles & there's definitely a part related to the whole consciousness(not sure if that's the right term).At least this is how i look at it.When i can see what other people are doing sometimes without any intention from my side ... even feel their pleasure and pain...theirs not mine!As these feelings don't belong to my person.
A little experiment i did while in Tiru.Over there,the silence and quietness was very high in me so it was easy for me to identify when a thought pops up from my mind from which direction it's coming... in another word from whom exactly!& same applies to sensation & feeling.
I don't waste any energy in that direction anymore.I find it's useless!But to say all the obstacles depend on the person him/herself...from my experience,that's totally wrong
Yes some purification happening over here belongs to me personally but most of the time major part of purifying is not for me.or is it purification?let's say the inner silence watches someone else's pain & pleasure.
Love
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& the purpose of all this!
