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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
 Posted - May 13 2006 : 7:44:13 PM
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Jim - Lord help me if I ever stop helping people up off the sidewalk for fear of a lawsuit. That sounds so American, doesn't it? :) Maybe I could have them sign a release form before I help them, as they lay there in a heap.
Katrine - Thanks for observing my great affection for my ego. It's been with me for so long; how can I not feel tenderness? Like a cranky old aunt who's a-hundred-n-two, or a lazy old cat who pees in the bed - you just love them, in spite of the annoyance.
Alan - Are you a Leo too? :)
Shanti - What I do is empty myself, constantly, whenever I think of it, which is more and more often. Empty yourself of any and all images you have of yourself. Jim is always saying dropitdropitdropit and it gets really annoying (sorry jim) but it's the best thing we can possibly do. Empty thyself, and in so doing THAT which we seek can fill you. But not if you're already full.
Emptying oneself is an ongoing, life-long process.
Also very important is not to be offended by the actions of another, as that too is ego. The Self is never offended, I'm qute sure of this. It has nothing at stake, as someone has said elsewhere. Maybe it was me. :)
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Edited by - Manipura on May 13 2006 7:45:29 PM |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 8:42:46 PM
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Meg cat, no I'm an aquarian,'62. Though aquarius is the opposite air sign from leo fire. I've read that the aquarian age is actually the aquarian/leo age.
I was just word-playing, it made a nice picture to me |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 10:11:36 PM
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Shanti,
We're not talking about ego in the sense of having a big head and lots of pride. It's the eastern meaning..........the narrating, thinking, grasping mind and our image of a separate, frozen self.
You can be humble and still locked in ego mind. Humility's not the answer. The answer is practices, which enable you to more and more recognize that you are the witness/silence, rather than the noise. Not frozen. Not separate. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2006 : 12:20:19 PM
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I'm concerned that by opening this topic I may have confused people, or made it seem like there's a lot to worry about and to intellectualy chew on. So I'd like to make an attempt to boil it down.
The danger of making this journey an attempt to accomplish something or get somewhere is that your mind will try to dutifully give you what you seek, creating a "virtual sadhana", with perils cautioned about above. The solution? Just act normal, engage with the world per normal, and keep mildly, simply clearing windows with AYP, like a small river wearing away at a rocky canyon. Mild and low-profile, just like Yogani's brilliantly rendered writings in the lessons. I frequently reread Yogani's lessons to get unwound up and restore myself to the mild simplicity of it all.
Plus: I watch for indications that I have a stake in things (anything!), which is a sign that ego is enhancing rather than declining. I carefully witness my reaction when something I value is taken away, or when something seems to diminish or offend me. I watch what makes me angry. If/when I start going the other way (and grasping more, taking more stake, etc etc), I 1. shine clear, clear spotlight of the witness on the grasping points of attachment (note: the witness is incapable of judging), and 2. simplify yet again my approach to practices (reading yogani helps), and 3. seek to engage in the world more per normal, If I've gotten overly yoga-ish.
It's sort of a meta self-pacing issue. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on May 15 2006 12:21:31 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 18 2006 : 7:54:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by meg
What I do is empty myself, constantly, whenever I think of it, which is more and more often. Empty yourself of any and all images you have of yourself. Jim is always saying dropitdropitdropit and it gets really annoying (sorry jim) but it's the best thing we can possibly do. Empty thyself, and in so doing THAT which we seek can fill you. But not if you're already full.
Emptying oneself is an ongoing, life-long process.
Everything you're emptying yourself of is God. It's all God, no need to empty anything. Come as you are. All you need to do is adjust your attitude. Let go. Don't cede control, cede your illusion that you are in control, and just let the perfection carry you |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2006 : 12:08:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
[quote]Everything you're emptying yourself of is God. It's all God, no need to empty anything.
When I say that I empty myself, I mean of ego. I want to be filled with God, but if I'm already filled with my ego, then there's no room for God to come in. (It's hard to write about this without using cliches; we grasp for words to express our experiences). I have a deep awareness that I am 'full of myself', which is ego, which is attachment, which is illusion. When I drop that, I have a deep awareness that I am no longer in control. In emptying myself of ego, I am effectively ceding control.
Not disagreeing with you, btw. Just trying to explain myself better, and am glad for the opportunity. The one thing that I don't see eye-to-eye with is that there's no need to empty anything. Clearly I think there is, unless you can persuade me otherwise? :) Yes, everything is of God; everything is God, including the obstacles which prevent us from seeing God. But those obstacles - godly or not - need to be reckoned with if we want a clearer view. That's why we meditate, that's why we do the practices. I see the emptying as part of that.
It's counter-intuitive to think that God is preventing me from seeing God. Makes my head hurt.  |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2006 : 04:44:31 AM
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Hi all
A perspective:
What drops are ideas about who I am. But it is not I that drop them. They simply dissolve when the understanding of the issue is complete. Understanding is not an idea about how things are; it is not a description; it is not a statement. Understanding is the embodiment of a state. When the understanding is complete – there is beingness. And the beingness is insightful.
When I inquire inwards; when I watch; it is not like I am capable of shining a clear spotlight. I don’t shine anything. If there is light in the looking, the witness is the light. No duality there. However –knowing intellectually that I am the witness is just a statement. It is only complete understanding when I actually experience it. And I go "in" and "out" of that perception. Especially if I "will myself to shine". As long as I carry the idea that I – my ego – is still here; (and clearly I do, or else there would be no dispute in me), I am not purely witnessing yet. Therefore – there is still judgement there.
???
Oh my God…..I just realized that I did it again – I judge the fact that my ego is here.... to be something that is not optimal.  *Laughing* - this is hilarious! I love it when this happens – the laughter is instantly relaxing. The fact that the ego is here only "muddels" me if I identify with it. Otherwise it is perfectly ok. I can laugh and love. My personality is allowed to be what it is – and I am free to be what I came here to do.
This is how I perceive the one looking as composed of part witness and part ego (otherwise all debate would end – there would simply be omniscience). My ego has never been capable of letting go. Nobody lets go. It is not a doing. The way I see it, it simply happens by itself. In relaxation I don’t let go; I simply become quiet (as above – when I was shocked into silence and laughter). And I become quiet the instant I see clearly. If I see; then there’s no need to talk to myself – is there? If I think of myself as someone who is letting go of something – I perpetuate that someone. When I completely understand this, I stop identifying with that thought. And the instant I stop identifying, the thought drops - it cannot exist cut off from my awareness. The witness part of the watching will see the ego judging what it sees. If I keep evaluating; keep talking while I see; then I veil the clarity with my words.
Deep meditation helps me to be quiet. It is not that I "empty myself of words"; nor that "I let go of talking", but rather that I experience – and thus understand (right there and then) - that I am quiet to begin with.
Enjoy yourself 
May all your Nows be Here |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2006 : 09:37:35 AM
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Hi Katrine
You clarified that nicely for me
I love the sparkle and joy that comes through your words[:).
Peace, alan |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2006 : 10:58:29 AM
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| Meg, right. I got a good vibe off your posting, regardless of language used. Mostly worried readers along might think that "trying to empty themselves out" was yet another thing they had to do and accomplish, etc etc. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2006 : 10:12:32 PM
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Hi Katrine thanks for your perspective, it touches on some things I have been observing in myself these days and contemplating.
quote:
What drops are ideas about who I am.
I agree with this and also think that thoughts related to things we believe we need to be fulfilled, are also big occupiers of our inner space (i.e. another's love, attention or affection). As we realize we already are all that we seek to be or obtain in the outer world and these things drop away we become more clear and more of our awareness can shine through. Maybe we are saying the same thing?
I have noticed two "favorite topics" going on in my mind these days. I hear the thoughts going on and they appear to be headed somewhere, to be trying to work things out, to come to an understanding as you put it. Will they ever get somewhere I wonder? I have also been wondering if I should let these thoughts run their course (is there an end?) and go with trying to figure things out or if i should focus on trying to be more present instead.
I had an interesting experience lately where I could see all my thoughts below me, like I was on the surface. I could see how when I watched from "above" out into what I was observing, how it became richer and more real. I then noticed that when I turned my attention to my thoughts how it increased their intensity and "realness" but decreased my experience of the now. Hence my unanswered question above.
quote:
If I think of myself as someone who is letting go of something – I perpetuate that someone.
This is an easy one to fall into and so is the idea that we can figure this all out! Two traps I fall into frequently!
A |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2006 : 03:14:17 AM
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| If I'm having a difficult time letting go in a given situation, that is, if I'm clinging to my ego desires, I come back to a phrase from my childhood which comes from the Lord's Prayer: Thy will be done. Powerful, simple, and to the point. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2006 : 03:59:16 AM
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Hi Andrew
quote:
As we realize we already are all that we seek to be or obtain in the outer world and these things drop away we become more clear and more of our awareness can shine through. Maybe we are saying the same thing?
Yes. We are. And the realization - the perception/understanding - that we already are what we seek, is made possible through the purification of the nervous system, through the Yoga Practises - AYP in our case.
quote:
I hear the thoughts going on and they appear to be headed somewhere, to be trying to work things out, to come to an understanding as you put it. Will they ever get somewhere I wonder? I have also been wondering if I should let these thoughts run their course (is there an end?) and go with trying to figure things out or if i should focus on trying to be more present instead.
Well......all I can say is that my thoughts never came to an understanding. Yes - they seem to be heading somewhere; but in me, they go in circles...a perpetuum mobile (do you have that expression in English?). Of course, thoughts can get you somewhere logistically....you plan your daily life etc, but any "figuring out" that has to do with "who I am" gets me nowhere.
What makes me "grow in understanding" is integrating what I see. BTW: "To see" for me is: To know - in my heart - that this is how it is. There is absolutely no dispute left. I just know. Usually, when I don't see clearly, it is also because I resist what I see. And I resist what I see because it doesn't coincide with "my idea of how my life should be". Seeing can be very scary - simply because I "lose my ground" (of course that ground is fake to begin with, but I don't experience it as such then). So....I have to be gentle with myself. I have to allow a lot. I have to give myself the time needed to grow. And then - when the understanding has ticked in - I can act (or not act).
F.ex: If I find out - through seeing/understanding - that I have been behaving in a manner that is opposed to what I really feel deep down is true for me, then this understanding is not only a "candy" that I store away in my "insights/treasure bank". I only mature if I implement/integrate that understanding in the way I live my life. Otherwise, there is no digestion....I become bloated on understandings. The way I see it, this "bloatedness" is spiritual pride (and I have my share of that).
To me - presence is everything. The more present I am, the more I see how things are. It is the seeing that is the understanding - not the way I talk about it afterwards. The talking can never really capture the whole understanding - I have to be here and experience it myself for that to happen.
It never worked for me to try to stop my thoughts. I do both, Andrew: Let the thoughts run their course (no, there is no end to them...only presence shuts them up) and focus on being more present. And - play and have fun! I was way to serious. I forgot to have fun for years. When I relax - presence is here automatically. After all, life is to be lived. When I am hungry, I won't settle for the menu
May all your Nows be Here |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2006 : 04:02:38 AM
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Hi Alan
quote:
I love the sparkle and joy that comes through your words[:).
Thanks, Alan
Don't forget; it is your sparkle, your joy
May all your Nows be Here |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2006 : 06:19:43 AM
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Great, Meg:
quote:
If I'm having a difficult time letting go in a given situation, that is, if I'm clinging to my ego desires, I come back to a phrase from my childhood which comes from the Lord's Prayer: Thy will be done. Powerful, simple, and to the point.
And the funny thing is, this is always how it is anyway
May all your Nows be Here |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2006 : 12:10:42 PM
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Thanks Katrine for your very insightful post!
quote:
And - play and have fun!
I have ben reminding myself of this a lot lately! To me the self discovery is fun too!
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TVD
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2008 : 12:06:15 PM
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I think this is an interesting thread. I found something in a book that I think is relevant to this but it's kinda long, I'm going to use whole paragraphs from the chapterr so I don't mess with what the author intended to convey. It's from the book Symbolism in Hinduism complied by Swami Nityanand, the chapter about Subramanya-Karthikeya by A. Parthasarathy.
"Shanmukha is represented in the human form with six faces ('shat' means 'six' and mukham means 'face'). He is blue in color. He holds a trident, a sort of spear or javelin (shakti)in his hand. His vehicle is the peacock. The peacock grips a snake with its claws."
"Blue colour is generally attributed to infinity. All infinite expanses in nature appear blue in colour to the human perception; for example, the sky and the ocean. The Blue colour of Subramaniam, therefore, indicates the Infinite Reality which exists as the Spiritual Essences in all human beings. In a human being, this Supreme Reality expreses itself through the media of the five sense organs and the mind-intellect equipment. This idea is represented by the lord having six faces. The Infinite Reality by itself has no expression; however, when it functions through the six equipments there is a manifestation of life, such manifestation being like a multi-faceted jewel reflecting light from its different facets."
"Again, the peacock-vehicle of Shanmukha is also blue in colour. Another characteristic of a peacock, which is significant here, is its vanity. The peacock is acaliamed to be the vainest living creature. How evident this is during the peacock's lengthy dancing with its colorful feathers propped up in a delightful form!"
The suggestion here is the Seeker of Truth must also develop extreme vanity of his Supreme Self, i.e. the seeker must vainfully feel that he is essentially the Pure Self and not the limited perceiver-feeler-thinker (PFT). This idea is figuratively represented by Kartikeya using the peacock as His vehicle. The vehicle on which man moves about at present is his egocentric mind which conceives only the limited individual. Man's attention is constantly focussed upon his body mind and intellect. Identifying with them, he believes himself to be a 'perceiver' at the physical level, a 'feeler' at the mental level and a thinker at the intellectual level. Thus, limiting his personality, he develops the vanity of the 'perceiver-feeler-thinker'. By doing so, man becomes unaware of his infinite potentiality. The Deity of Kartikeya is meant to invoke in man the vanity of his supreme self and thereby he will conceive his infinite stature. The one who practices this art of withdrawing his mind from its preoccupations with the material equipments of the mind, body, intellect and succeeds in maintaining the concept of the Infinite Self, that one becomes the blue-coloured Kartikeya - a God-man on Earth."
The Deity also gives the seeker a practical suggestion as to how he can discard the material layers of his personality and reach the abode of the Supreme Reality. This suggestion lies in the Peacock clutching the serpent with its claws. The peacock is the greatest enemy of the serpent. It can destroy the serpent if it wishes to, but the serpent if held here in captivity without being destroyed. The serpent represents the ego, the fleshy, carnal personality of man which tempts him to use his material equipments for seeking the fleeting pleasures of the pluralistic world. Like the serpent, the ego crawls in the darkness created by man's ignorance of the supreme light. The serpent carries poison in its fangs but it is interesting to observe that the poison is for its own protection. Similarly, the ego carries with it the poisonous mind, which, when focussed on one's material vestures, assumes the vanity of 'I-ness' and 'mine-ness'. The same mind can be intelligently used for evolving oneself by changing the focus of concentration from body-mind-intellect to the Supreme Self. By this process one unfolds and recognizes one's own Real Nature. It is important to note, therefore, that the ego is not destroyed. The same ego which lures man to the enchantments of the pluralistic world can be channeled to discover the Supreme Self. This idea is symbolized by the serpent being held firmly by the peacock."
Ugh, so long. Still though, maybe this is a useful perspective on Divine Pride that can be helpful. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2008 : 1:38:55 PM
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Thanks for resurrecting this old thread TVD, it's nice to look back and see how perspectives can change over time, it certainly erases any doubt that daily practices are working.
quote:
I had an interesting experience lately where I could see all my thoughts below me, like I was on the surface. I could see how when I watched from "above" out into what I was observing, how it became richer and more real. I then noticed that when I turned my attention to my thoughts how it increased their intensity and "realness" but decreased my experience of the now.
I completely forgot about this experience but it matches an observation that comes to mind lately. I see a giant balance scale, awareness, light, illumination on one side, thoughts, ego, darkness, confusion on the other. Every day we can choose where we will add energy and tip the scales in one direction or the other. If we feel anger or annoyed by a loved one or someone at work and we choose to act on it, we then tip the scale in a direction that in the long run most of us don't want to go. The same situation occurs and instead we recognize the thought causing the anger/ annoyance, let it go and respond with love and understanding, we are then adding a little more energy in the direction we'd like to go.
Every day, in every moment we choose our actions, how do you want to choose? I know for myself, nothing is worth holding onto that takes me away from feeling good on the inside even if it seems so at first. Love makes me feel better than being right or angry etc. which separates. I choose to unify with others rather than divide, one leads to expansion the other contraction. I know how I want to choose, how we choose brings life to what we choose.
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 7:14:46 PM
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TVD
Very good article! Thanks a lot.
Just one question, Why the serpent carries the poison for its own protection? and Why the peacock doesn't destroy the serpent ?
We think, and do many things with the serpent, its a tool to live in this world, I don't think we could live in this world without the serpent (ego). We can purify the serpent, lead it to the self, but we cannot ignore it or destroy it. When the ego is enlightened with the self, it carries wings, like the QUETZALCOATL God, the feathered serpent. So we are like serpents waiting to be feathered. So the serpent is divine in nature, our work is to feather the serpent with the consciousness of the self (peacock or eagle)
Neli
quote:
Originally posted by TVD
I think this is an interesting thread. I found something in a book that I think is relevant to this but it's kinda long, I'm going to use whole paragraphs from the chapterr so I don't mess with what the author intended to convey. It's from the book Symbolism in Hinduism complied by Swami Nityanand, the chapter about Subramanya-Karthikeya by A. Parthasarathy.
"Shanmukha is represented in the human form with six faces ('shat' means 'six' and mukham means 'face'). He is blue in color. He holds a trident, a sort of spear or javelin (shakti)in his hand. His vehicle is the peacock. The peacock grips a snake with its claws."
"Blue colour is generally attributed to infinity. All infinite expanses in nature appear blue in colour to the human perception; for example, the sky and the ocean. The Blue colour of Subramaniam, therefore, indicates the Infinite Reality which exists as the Spiritual Essences in all human beings. In a human being, this Supreme Reality expreses itself through the media of the five sense organs and the mind-intellect equipment. This idea is represented by the lord having six faces. The Infinite Reality by itself has no expression; however, when it functions through the six equipments there is a manifestation of life, such manifestation being like a multi-faceted jewel reflecting light from its different facets."
"Again, the peacock-vehicle of Shanmukha is also blue in colour. Another characteristic of a peacock, which is significant here, is its vanity. The peacock is acaliamed to be the vainest living creature. How evident this is during the peacock's lengthy dancing with its colorful feathers propped up in a delightful form!"
The suggestion here is the Seeker of Truth must also develop extreme vanity of his Supreme Self, i.e. the seeker must vainfully feel that he is essentially the Pure Self and not the limited perceiver-feeler-thinker (PFT). This idea is figuratively represented by Kartikeya using the peacock as His vehicle. The vehicle on which man moves about at present is his egocentric mind which conceives only the limited individual. Man's attention is constantly focussed upon his body mind and intellect. Identifying with them, he believes himself to be a 'perceiver' at the physical level, a 'feeler' at the mental level and a thinker at the intellectual level. Thus, limiting his personality, he develops the vanity of the 'perceiver-feeler-thinker'. By doing so, man becomes unaware of his infinite potentiality. The Deity of Kartikeya is meant to invoke in man the vanity of his supreme self and thereby he will conceive his infinite stature. The one who practices this art of withdrawing his mind from its preoccupations with the material equipments of the mind, body, intellect and succeeds in maintaining the concept of the Infinite Self, that one becomes the blue-coloured Kartikeya - a God-man on Earth."
The Deity also gives the seeker a practical suggestion as to how he can discard the material layers of his personality and reach the abode of the Supreme Reality. This suggestion lies in the Peacock clutching the serpent with its claws. The peacock is the greatest enemy of the serpent. It can destroy the serpent if it wishes to, but the serpent if held here in captivity without being destroyed. The serpent represents the ego, the fleshy, carnal personality of man which tempts him to use his material equipments for seeking the fleeting pleasures of the pluralistic world. Like the serpent, the ego crawls in the darkness created by man's ignorance of the supreme light. The serpent carries poison in its fangs but it is interesting to observe that the poison is for its own protection. Similarly, the ego carries with it the poisonous mind, which, when focussed on one's material vestures, assumes the vanity of 'I-ness' and 'mine-ness'. The same mind can be intelligently used for evolving oneself by changing the focus of concentration from body-mind-intellect to the Supreme Self. By this process one unfolds and recognizes one's own Real Nature. It is important to note, therefore, that the ego is not destroyed. The same ego which lures man to the enchantments of the pluralistic world can be channeled to discover the Supreme Self. This idea is symbolized by the serpent being held firmly by the peacock."
Ugh, so long. Still though, maybe this is a useful perspective on Divine Pride that can be helpful.
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Spiritual Pride
