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Babaly
USA
112 Posts |
 Posted - May 09 2006 : 1:34:17 PM
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Hi everyone,
I wanted to bring up the the topic of 'Gurus Gone Wrong'.
Has anyone else been through the experience where they were following someone - even maybe became their disciple/chela and then were disappointed or saw something that wasn't quite right and chose to leave?
It has happened me, and it is a very painful process.
I would love to hear your experience and how you got through it.
Many thanks |
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Richard
United Kingdom
857 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2006 : 3:22:53 PM
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Hello Babaly
Yes I know what you mean. I was unceremoniously dumped by a teacher of a path so different than this it wouldn't be appropriate to describe it hear, simply because I wasn't spending enough money with him. This was very hurtful and traumatic for me as his knowledge was indisputably huge on the subject that he was teaching.
This resulted indirectly in me finding AYP so perhaps I should be grateful to him rather than resentful as AYP has produced far greater and far reaching results than his teaching ever did.
All these things happen for a reason it is said that when you are ready the teacher will appear, for me that teacher was Yogani. 
Blessings 
RICHARD |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2006 : 3:47:28 PM
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Babaly,
sorry to hear this happened to you. It has happened to so many.
I'm not so sure how 'bad' this thing you saw was. But if it taught you that that person was not perfect after all, well, that can be a good thing to learn early on.
My guess is that among the famous gurus anyway, at least 90% have some serious dirt around them. Let me be very clear that that's not a bad comment on the maybe 10% who do not get into any significant misbehavior.....
In my mind, the root of the problem is the mythologization of people beyond the correct bounds. It's the building-up these people to be something much more than they are. Mythologization can be a delicious process for both guru and chela, and they find it irresistible. It's a demand-supply thing. The common guru loves being mythologized -- the common chela loves having someone to mythologize.
If you are looking for the same thing again, be careful. 'The Perfect Guru' is very often sought, but it is as rare and unhelpful a goal as 'The Perfect Husband'.
Respect to all who are happy with their gurus. This is not a diatribe against gurus.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on May 09 2006 3:50:59 PM |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2006 : 4:04:47 PM
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| It is helpful to me to strive to find the Guru everywhere within and without under the universal guidelines of Divine Love. Just as god the guru is hiding behind all form and activity as Divine Love, a true human guru will only shine as That, humbly bowing his/her form in Divine Service to All. I also try to keep in mind that each form falls short of perfection as it is but one movement in the beauty of creation, preservation and dissolution and is never complete in itself |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2006 : 5:44:48 PM
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| P.S. I forgot to mention that I sympathize with you and your experience, Babaly. It is painful when we are led astray by others, especially when we put complete faith in them. As I grow through such events and through my spiritual practice I finally begin to gain discrimination and see that by living in egoic ignorance I have led myself astray. I Thank Godguru She has led me thru it all as a mother does Her child and I am beginning to see Her more and more smiling as I take my first steps into freedom |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2006 : 6:14:07 PM
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Why are you guys singling out gurus that let you down.. could you not apply this reality to everyone and anyone.. parents, children, relatives, friends, spouses.. just name it... how many here have trusted a friend.. or a sibling or a parent or spouse.. and been hurt by them... let down in ways no human should be let down.. or at least know someone who was let down by someone they trusted... This is life.. all these people who hurt us are our teaches.. they teach us some kind of truth about life.. they push us towards a path that lead us to the truth.. so if you want to discuss being hurt by someone.. don't just single out the gurus.
We have gone over this many times in this forum.. and it has never turned out right.. we have always landed up hurting someone, whether it is the one accusing or the one defending, someone was always hurt.. .. I am sure if we started a thread on how someone close to us hurt us.. it too would not land up too well.. when there is hurt involved.. people just want to lash out.. don't think before they speak..
Just want all of you to be careful what you say... there are many people here who have gurus.. many who are gurus.. many who will soon have a guru.. and I think they should all have a place here and not be uncomfortable... Yogani does not like guru bashing.. lets just keep that out of this forum.. as far as possible.. I know this thread has not gone out of hand yet.. but its is like a ticking time bomb..
Just my 2 cents.
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Edited by - Shanti on May 09 2006 6:46:21 PM |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2006 : 6:45:27 PM
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| Yes, I agree Shanti. I, for one, will not take part in the bashing of anyone's Guru. If I have already done so then I offer my sincere apologies. Besides, it's such a waste of time and energy! |
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Babaly
USA
112 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2006 : 6:48:20 PM
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Hi Shanti,
Just to clarify. I am not interested in bashing Gurus at all.
I just need a little help getting over my experience which was painful and also a great teacher.
I in no way wish it didn't happen. It has and will serve me well. I would just like to hear peoples experience how they overcame their hurt when they had spent so much time loving this person.
It is taking me time - and I left my guru 5 years ago - to get comfortable meditating in a different way. All my wiring was wired up to her. I've had to dismantle it all and reconfigure. I think I have a handle on it now. It's taken such a long time.
Behind it all I see and feel God loving me through it all.
God/Guru/God - I know.........what is the difference. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2006 : 7:05:04 PM
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Sorry Babaly,
I did not say you were guru bashing.. you were just trying to get some help. I understand. The only reason I am scared is.. I have seen a couple of instances where it has gone too far.. it starts off as a small thing and takes on a life of its own. That is why I said "the thread has not gone out of hand yet".
I know many here don't agree with me.. they think they should be able to talk about anything they want.. which is true.. but some things are better kept out of an open forum.. esp. one that deals with yoga and meditation..
Babaly, Please do forgive me if I was out of line here.. and hurt you in any way..by posting this. I had decided to stay out of this, but it is hard for me to stay out... lived through a couple of these threads.. and they led to a lot of heartaches for a lot of people.
I don't expect anyone to stop posting because I said so.. just be careful what you say that's all..
Thanks
-Shanti. |
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Babaly
USA
112 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2006 : 7:18:12 PM
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Thanks Richard for your post.
It obviously was not my karma to continue with that guru.
I am glad I have found you all and Yogani.
I feel so sad right this moment I think I'll sign off and have a good cry.
Blessings to you all.
Babaly
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2006 : 7:32:33 PM
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Shanti said:
Why are you guys singling out gurus that let you down.. could you not apply this reality to everyone and anyone.. parents, children, relatives, friends, spouses.. just name it... how many here have trusted a friend.. or a sibling or a parent or spouse.. and been hurt by them... let down in ways no human should be let down.. or at least know someone who was let down by someone they trusted... This is life.. all these people who hurt us are our teaches.. they teach us some kind of truth about life.. they push us towards a path that lead us to the truth.. so if you want to discuss being hurt by someone.. don't just single out the gurus.
Shanti, there are lots of good reasons why the question was asked, and good reasons why there was an attempt to answer it.
But if I am to take your own question on face value, I would say, well, none of the parents, children, relatives, friends, spouses that I know of are willing participants in instituted relationship-forms which mythologize and inflate them out of all reason, way beyond what they really are. I have no parents, children, relatives, friends or spouses that self-mythologize enormously -- I don't know if you do. So if you get disappointed with the people I know of, at least you don't have a huge mythologization you have of them to get through. People who are disappointed with gurus often have to go through that.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2006 : 7:45:37 PM
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| Well its not just mythologizing you know.. it mainly hurts when you are wronged.. whether it was because you believed that this is how a guru is supposed to behave or a relative. As a child you do mythologize your parents/uncles/aunts/.. when they hurt you.. that scar stays with you through life times David. Just the way when you believe with all you heart that a guru can show you the way and they hurt you. You may have been lucky not to have been hurt by someone close to you.. but not everyone is that lucky.. and although I was never hurt by a guru.. the hurt I received as a child from people I thought were cool grown ups... could never be bigger than that a guru could hand me. Just personal opinion I know.. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2006 : 8:17:44 PM
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That must have been pretty wrenching.
A book Yogani recommends, "THE FOUR AGREEMENTS" by Don Miguel Ruiz" offers some insight into working through this sort of issue. More info at:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=466 |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2006 : 8:19:46 PM
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Hi Babaly, I hope things are better for you
My experience with Yogananda in the early eighties and the church that was built around his teachings and how to sift through my relationship with both of them is as close as I can get to your experience. In '83 I had a vision of Yogananda and Sri Yukteswar before I fell the next day into a more solidified pattern of drug use which took me away from spiritual work for over twenty years. Though Yogananda has never told me he is my Guru, I always thought he was. That vision and a feeling of his presence in my life is the only thing that I can't call a guru mythology. Because I have seperated the mythology and its rules from the feeling of his presence I can once again accept him as 'real' to me. The whole thing was long term painful because I had to grow out of having accepted the mythology as real with all of the associated feelings of guilt for doing so. My Dad is a Methodist minister and I grew up with institutional guilt, so I guess that was part of my church karma to work out. Until God actually tells me who my Guru is, if that's necessary, I'll accept guidance from the highest ones that cross my path, and they do
I hope your healing brings you rich rewards! Love alan
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Babaly
USA
112 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2006 : 9:15:12 PM
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Thanks Alan,
Your heartfelt words have helped me tonight.
I feel better now. I'm coming to a place where I am grateful all this happened. My karma was to go on to higher heights. It was God's will that I was freed from my then guru.
This interchange has helped me by just getting it out there. I feel more free.
Onward and upward.
Thanks for all of you being there.
God is Great:-) |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2006 : 12:39:09 AM
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This is why love has to be unconditional. Whenever we expect anything returned by people, we set ourselves up to be hurt. When a guru gives us a great teaching, we accept it as a great gift. We can't pretend that it has strings attached to the future, meaning this person has a special God connection forever.
We have to evaluate each moment with full awareness, and not take it as a personal assault when other people change and we didn't expect it. Of course when people break promises we take it as an assault, but really that person is failing to live up to a standard within himself, and most often is not initiating an attack on us. |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2006 : 11:37:00 AM
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Hi,
Well I'm glad I haven't been wronged by a guru but if I had I hope I'm strong enough to pick myself up and start again which is what we have to do isn't it? Rather than mythologise and live in awe of your guru is it not better to accept what we gain from them?David I must be lucky that my guru is not a 'common' one who wants reverance.I rang him in San Francisco on Sunday and he told me only to tell others of my experiences and not say he was a great and powerful guru.He was very explicit on this and told me not to speak of hearsay but simply my experiences.I am hoping he will be coming to the UK next month and if so he will be singing the Divine Sound so I'm prepared for an energy blast. LOL.I guess I am blessed.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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Babaly
USA
112 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2006 : 11:50:12 AM
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Shanti,
Of course I forgive you... I was a little surprized but now I see where you were coming from.
Many blessings,
Babaly |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2006 : 12:26:05 PM
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The problem is that we're all of us looking for Love, and sometimes in the most peculiar places. We want Love, as in Divine Love, and that can only be found in God, or within. Any love that we find external to ourselves will always be flawed, due to the imperfection of our species. When we have expectations of finding perfect Love in another person, there are bound to be disappointments. Even if you think you've found the perfect Guru, partner, friend - eventually your imperfections will leak out, and then what?
Exasperated wife: "If not for my husband, this would be a perfect marriage!" |
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Babaly
USA
112 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2006 : 1:02:05 PM
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| LOL:-) thanks Meg... you are so right. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2006 : 3:53:27 PM
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David said:
David I must be lucky that my guru is not a 'common' one who wants reverance.
Yes, I think you are indeed lucky.
Shanti said:
As a child you do mythologize your parents/uncles/aunts/.. when they hurt you.. that scar stays with you through life times David
Shanti, you are right that we mythologize our parents and older relatives way beyond the actual reality when we are children. But what is one of the most important lessons of adolescence?
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Edited by - david_obsidian on May 10 2006 3:55:31 PM |
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - May 26 2006 : 08:17:43 AM
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We are rarely in that 100% 'trust in' or 'surrender to' position wrt the Guru... that is when, I understand, the total connection that transforms is made. Even if we, when not ready, met a real Guru, we'd not be in a position to evaluate him or her, because we cannot understand his or her actions. So we will, till ready, meet teachers, as Yogani says, who will impart something useful (pain is the one of the greatest teachers, even though it is tremendously difficult to accept such a lesson, and it can take long for any understanding of it to seep in) It is traumatic to move away from any relationship that nourished, and then to accept that it not only ceased to nourish but became unpleasent; and the higher the plane of the relationship, the deeper the pain... yet, when the relationship has outlived its purpose, we move on to the next source of learning, or to fulfil unfinished tasks and desires.
I could not relate to my teacher. Yet I learnt a lot, despite my strong resistance to his personality. When my resistance became larger than my learning I left. 
And here I am... hopefully, still learning, still on the path. If this helps anyone to arrive at a plateau of peace with the teacher, so be it. I was in some ways in a worse position than Babaly... I felt indignation and anger as well. Yet now both have dissolved... and I have only just taken the turn on the road and walked a few steps in this direction where I see you all... helping each other, sharing burdens... and there is Yogani ahead of us, gentle, smiling, setting an example, flicking off the 'grim' from the pilgrim's progress. Beaut! I already thank my old teacher for getting me here...! |
Edited by - sadhak on May 26 2006 09:09:37 AM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - May 26 2006 : 1:28:39 PM
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| Nice post Sadhak, wise words, pain is the ultimate teacher, a reason to love our discomfort? It sets us free... |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 26 2006 : 3:23:35 PM
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We are rarely in that 100% 'trust in' or 'surrender to' position wrt the Guru... that is when, I understand, the total connection that transforms is made.
I am sure these processes help some people. But it's interesting to ask how many became genuinely, independently enlightened this way. Does anyone have uncontroversial examples?
The illustrious enlightened of whom I know (and indeed, some of these could be mythologized too to some extent), well, they didn't actually seem to become enlightened through guru-devotion at all, and did not teach it as a path: just a small handful: Patanjali, Buddha, Milarepa, the Six Patriarchs of Zen, Ramakrishna, Ramana Maharshi, Lahiri Mahasaya, Nisagardatta Maharaj, Lao Tzu etc. etc.
And yet there are millions of people being given the surrender-to-the-guru-to-become-enlighened story.
Well, how true is this story, and why aren't these guys teaching it?
My mom was a devout Catholic and had a great mythology about Marriage when she was younger. When you would listen to her talk, all problems with marriage not working out were the result of lack of commitment to it, and could be fixed by working on it according to the Mythology. When she grew older, she grew wiser. She had friends whom she respected whose marriages failed. She could see that they had no less commitment than she had, and had tried everything.
Likewise, people who believe the surrender-to-the-guru thing can say, if it didn't work out for you, that you didn't commit to it properly, that your surrender wasn't 100%. Their thought system will allow them to continue believing that surrender-to-the-guru works to produce enlighenment no matter how many times it fails to do so.
Food for thought......
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - May 26 2006 : 3:39:25 PM
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David,
It depends on your perception of what surrender is.Certainly in my experience the meditation is more powerful with the connection to guruji and I can feel the increase in energy and so can my students.Surrender to the guru does not make you his slave nor do you have to mythologise him.I have read your recent posts on mythology and I must say you are in the danger of mythologising AYP and Yogani as being the best thing since sliced bread. The very thing you dislike about gurus.Be happy in your practice and encourage others to help them but don't create the same monster you are often trying to kill.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - May 26 2006 : 5:17:49 PM
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Don't forget yogani's sage advice, "The Guru is in you".
It is my understanding that a true Guru, in the flesh or not, is a vessel of God and enjoys the task of operating within our inner temples to help lead our devotions. A divine personality?
Even those God-merged beings who had no visible outward Guru had a relationship with Guru as Self within, "formed" or not.
Peace, alan
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Gurus Gone Wrong
