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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 09 2010 : 2:22:03 PM
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Namaste Friends 
Lately I've been inquiring a bit into Karma Yoga. What I've been finding has been a bit, well, disconcerting. I don't know how else to put it.
I've been actively engaging in Karma Yoga in various ways since the beginning of my AYP journey, but only recently have I begun to really dig deep into the motivations and intentions behind my so called "selfless service." What I have noticed is that, no matter how "selfless" I want to consider my actions, there is always some sort of expectation behind the action....some sort of desire for a payoff, however subtle.
For example....maybe just half an hour ago I decided to leave my office and go grab a coffee. I got my coffee and as I was walking out of the coffee shop a man was walking up to the door. I wanted to hold the door open for him, so I did. He thanked me and we both moved on. But as I sat in my car getting ready to drive back to work, I wondered to myself how I would have felt if he had not spoken to me and said thank you. I imagine that I would have been a bit miffed and thought that he was likely an ungrateful bastard. Granted this was speculation, but this same situation has happened before where I, for example, allow someone to cut in front of me in traffic.....I expect a wave of thanks and if I don't get one, there is at least a moment or two of constriction, if not more. Obviously it is not "selfless service" if I am expecting some sort of payoff or thanks in return.
So this brings me to my real inquiry. Is it even possible to engage in "real" karma yoga, "real" selfless service, with no expectation (whether conscious or unconscious) of some sort of payoff (even just a very subtle one) before one is fully embodying the experience of knowing All as the Self?
Love!
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faileforever
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - Nov 09 2010 : 3:14:08 PM
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CarsonZi, thank you so much for posting this, I have been dealing with the same thing and wasnt sure how to word or ask it on the forums-youve done that for me I pray everyday saying to God 'Give Thyself to me so that I may give Thee to others' yet there is a part of me that feels selfish because I, personally, really want to Know the Truth/God as well...It makes me wonder if we can truly, selflessly serve others with no expectation? Does that selfish part dissolve away eventually? Hmnn... |
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yogani
USA
5249 Posts |
Posted - Nov 09 2010 : 4:30:20 PM
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Hi Carson:
It is always about the "self." With practices, the small (personal) self keeps getting smaller and the big (universal) Self keeps getting bigger. The only real say we have in it is our choices to practice effectively and go out and do in the world. The rest is in the hands of the emerging divine flow. Best not to judge too much. It only gets in the way.
Every ugly duckling (personal self) is destined to become a swan (universal Self). If we accept the ugly duckling as it is and keep going with methods that we know will work, it will happen. Doubt is an ugly duckling thing, and all we have to do is walk (or stumble) through it to our meditation seat each day, and keep active serving others as so inclined.
We all need a reward. The other person's happiness is a pretty good reward. Not needing a reward is a good reward too. It is okay to need something, and okay to need nothing. It all evens out in the long run.
The guru is in you.
PS: Like self-inquiry, karma yoga is not a very effective stand-alone path. But with abiding inner silence coming in, both of these become spontaneous, and much more powerful. That is how swan-hood happens.
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Arjuna
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - Nov 09 2010 : 8:12:24 PM
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I share another perspective to your concerns of motivations and selflessness. Bnei Baruch Kabbalist's explain that human beings are built as "Receiving" vessels, and as such we base all of our choices with the "what's in it for me" process. Hence, it is impossible for us to be truly selfless.
It's not a question of good/bad, right/wrong... it's just the way it is.
So what to do??? The Kabbalist's tell us that we must keep alive the "Desire" to become selfless and continue to do the impossible to become like the Creator who is pure "Bestowal". |
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hemanthks
Canada
59 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2010 : 01:13:19 AM
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Namaste CarsonZi:
Thank you for the post. I would like to share something here. One can learn about selfless service from nature. For instance, trees depend on environment for their growth (sunlight, rain etc.) but give their fruits to other beings (animals, humans). This act of giving is not a calculated one (i.e., tree does not expect anything back). This is selfless service (in other words sacrifice). I think keeping this spirit (by remembering selfless services in nature) constant in our actions will lead to perfect Karma Yagna.
Hemanth |
Edited by - hemanthks on Nov 10 2010 01:52:40 AM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2010 : 10:56:07 AM
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Hi Yogani and All
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
We all need a reward. The other person's happiness is a pretty good reward. Not needing a reward is a good reward too. It is okay to need something, and okay to need nothing. It all evens out in the long run.
I guess the limited mind/ego keeps wanting to jump in and negatively judge myself for feeling good because I have just done (or tried to do) something nice for someone else. It wants to say "If you were really 'selfless' you wouldn't feel good...you would just do without any feelings arising." But, after reading your post Yogani, I have some added clarity and can see how silly this is.  Feelings happen 
Love!
P.S> Thanks for the "nature" analogy Hemanth and for the added perspectice Arjuna....I truly appreciate the input and advice. Much Love
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2010 : 11:52:25 AM
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quote:Originally posted by CarsonZi
....maybe just half an hour ago I decided to leave my office and go grab a coffee. I got my coffee and as I was walking out of the coffee shop a man was walking up to the door. I wanted to hold the door open for him, so I did. He thanked me and we both moved on. But as I sat in my car getting ready to drive back to work, I wondered to myself how I would have felt if he had not spoken to me and said thank you. I imagine that I would have been a bit miffed and thought that he was likely an ungrateful bastard.
I am feeling a strong sense of connectivity with you at the moment, Carson Z. Here is why: In the twilight mental zone between sleep and awake this morning I realized that like you (I had read you post before falling to sleep), I had been thinking about the doorway etiquette yesterday. It started at about 1:40 pm Eastern Standard Time, which is I think also AYP Forum time (which translates to 3:40 pm up there in Calgary). I was walking out of the building after a meeting for meditation, and an older man from the meditation group held the door for me, and as I passed through, smiling at him, and feeling warm feelings, he said "thank you." It left an impression! I was walking from the meeting room toward a coffee shop feeling the oddity of the moment: He held the door, and thanked me for what? For walking through? I really felt he was honoring me.
Within a half hour or so, I was sitting at a table right at arms length from the front door of the coffee shop and a beautiful young woman got stuck at the doorway with a baby carriage complication. I hesitated to volunteer help for fear she would think I was hitting on her, but she gestured consent. As she walked through, there I was holding the door feeling grateful for the opportunity. She didn't say thanks, but I did not think about that as even potentially a problem since she was so hot and in need and all.
I sat back down, and later when she left I held the door again. Again with her consent. And afterward I started thinking something like "I like being a door man!" It was a funny thought. It reminded me of the day before when a paid door keeper who happened to be a woman directed me to the next building over, and as I left I was thinking, "That's a job?" There had been a tinge of judgment that needed adjustment.
Oh and Carson, thanks for holding the door open -- the door to AYP Form. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2010 : 12:16:23 PM
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Hey bewell
quote:
Originally posted by bewell
I am feeling a strong sense of connectivity with you at the moment, Carson Z. Here is why: In the twilight mental zone between sleep and awake this morning I realized that like you (I had read you post before falling to sleep), I had been thinking about the doorway etiquette yesterday. It started at about 1:40 pm Eastern Standard Time, which is I think also AYP Forum time (which translates to 3:40 pm up there in Calgary).
What's even more bizarre, is that 1:40pm EST is actually 11:40am Calgary time (MST? not sure) and that is EXACTLY when I was having this experience! WOW! How's THAT for connection!?!?!?!!!! Hahaha
quote:
Originally posted by bewell
I was walking out of the building after a meeting for meditation, and an older man from the meditation group held the door for me, and as I passed through, smiling at him, and feeling warm feelings, he said "thank you." It left an impression! I was walking from the meeting room toward a coffee shop feeling the oddity of the moment: He held the door, and thanked me for what? For walking through? I really felt he was honoring me.
quote:
Originally posted by bewell
Within a half hour or so, I was sitting at a table right at arms length from the front door of the coffee shop and a beautiful young woman got stuck at the doorway with a baby carriage complication. I hesitated to volunteer help for fear she would think I was hitting on her, but she gestured consent.
Those beautiful women....always thinking we are hitting on them......even if we are just trying to help them out. Hahaha  Just kidding 
quote:
Originally posted by bewell
As she walked through, there I was holding the door feeling grateful for the opportunity. She didn't say thanks, but I did not think about that as even potentially a problem since she was so hot and in need and all.
The payoff was simply interacting with her hotness. 
quote:
Originally posted by bewell
I sat back down, and later when she left I held the door again. Again with her consent. And afterward I started thinking something like "I like being a door man!" It was a funny thought. It reminded me of the day before when a paid door keeper who happened to be a woman directed me to the next building over, and as I left I was thinking, "That's a job?" There had been a tinge of judgment that needed adjustment.
This journey is just so incredibly beautiful. Life truly gives us infinite opportunities to open and awaken and see the beauty of each and every moment. What more could we ever want then to be living this Life right now? How totally awesome and truly lucky we are. I feel humbled. 
quote:
Originally posted by bewell
Oh and Carson, thanks for holding the door open -- the door to AYP Form.
Thank you for sharing this moment with me. It's an honor.
Love!
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faileforever
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2010 : 5:12:44 PM
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| The reward is not needing a reward... that is beautiful. Thanks Yogani |
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Shimon
Israel
59 Posts |
Posted - Aug 23 2011 : 3:12:47 PM
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Hi Carson !
I'm new to AYP but not so new to spirituality and my path.
I thought about those kind of things a lot... regarding true compassion. I just learned that it is useless to judge ourselves cause we don't get anywhere with this.. its only complicate things. After all we are all humans, and have emotions. What i'm trying to say is this happens.. you can't ignore that.. you can't do anything with that.. (im talking about self judgement thoughts and emotions). they happen... and it's probably ok. The thing is which works for me at least is to keep being in the heart. Keep being tuned for compassion.. and with time it will grow.
To develop compassion and to make service i went to alternative medical school to study naturopathy so i could help people. I felt there was some inner call somewhere in the back of my mind. So i went and did it. At first i wasn't tuned for that at all... my heart was somewhere in the back.. waiting... i just studied and studied and then, some day, i got to work with real people and then gradually i started to open up to my inner energies of caring about the other.. and compassion started to grow slowly and with that came very good results of the patients.
I don't know.. im only suggesting... maybe you can try to ask yourself "how can i truly server the divine ?" you may come with an answer.. maybe its helping people...
i think its good.
Namaste.
Shimon. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 23 2011 : 4:09:41 PM
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Hi Shimon
It's been a while since I thought about this thread, thanks for bringing it back up. I find it useful to revisit old threads on occasion... it can help to put "the unfolding" into a slightly larger perspective.
What I have come to realize over the past 10 or so months since I started this topic is that for me, there is no such thing as "selfless service".... everything is done in service of self. It's all a matter of what perspective you are looking at things from. When I hold the door open for someone now, I see the action as serving everyone, not just me, not just the person walking through the door, but as serving all of humanity (it should also be noted that it doesn't feel like "I" am doing anything anymore). If Life is lived with an attitude of service to "the Divine," every single action is karma yoga, no matter how small. Sitting to do my practices is karma yoga. Teaching AYP to others is karma yoga. Taking out the trash is karma yoga. Eating dinner is karma yoga. Going to work is karma yoga. EVERYTHING is karma yoga if you do everything with an attitude of servitude.
Just sharing how things look 10 months post OP.
Love!
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Aug 23 2011 : 5:22:02 PM
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I think this "wanting to act right" is part of the self-image of a "Spiritual Seeker" that we try to live up to. The idea of a seeker who practises twice-daily diligently, tries to act right, agrees with guru, promotes his system aggressively, believes he got the best system in the world, believes he is changing everyday etc...
Why do we need to "act right"? In whose eyes? Who is that we are worried that's observing or judging us? Will we have this tendency to act right without an observer (could be other people, could be our own judgemental mind)?
- Near |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Aug 24 2011 : 01:50:48 AM
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| good point Near |
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JosephUK
United Kingdom
212 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2011 : 12:57:19 PM
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I guess we're all right :)
in buddhism (as i read) we teach that there is no self, and yet there is no word for the universal self (God)
and i guess the inner silence is that nothingness (or emptiness referred to in buddhism) (or wu chi in taoism) before creation which presides over it all and from which truely compassionate thoughts are created (In Yogani's teaching)as they arise from inner silence and are not connected with the ego.
by making the thoughts an object of meditation we enter the witness state, or we practice mindfulness of thoughts.
this is akin to self-enquiry, although may refer to a lesser form of witness than described in Yogani's teachings.
it is important to understand our motivations, watch the thoughts and impulses, it will aid our yoga.
I read some of the Dalai Lama's book recently which taught me the no-self, it really helped me. (how to see yourself as you truly are).
a bit of a ramble i know, but it helps me in my comparative philosophy
love
Joe
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