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des022
USA
24 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 13 2008 : 12:26:26 AM
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| I enjoy reading some Osho. But he seems to be against TM/mantra meditation. He even calls the mantra stupid. "if you are repeating some stupid mantra" Ive listened to a lot of his discourses online and he seems to bring up TM a lot with nothing good to say about it. He says it is only good for sleep, not for meditation. I am confused by this because AYP is main spiritual practice which I believe is helping me. But Osho says it isnt meditation. |
Edited by - AYPforum on Dec 14 2008 4:28:44 PM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2008 : 01:16:29 AM
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hi des022,
to each his own opinions and experience on the matter and the beautiful thing in ayp is that it puts you in the place of the driver seat so that you can judge by yourself and not to take any one else's word for it.
and as you said, it seems to be helping you and it's helping me and a lot of others whom i know.
so whose words are you going to take for it, your own self or the words of another.
oh and by the way, there are a lot of others who agree with Osho there's krishnamurti for example.
plus there are those who disagree, and not to be a hard liner i'll go and pick someone like ramana maharshi who is an advaitan (a non dualist.)
light and love,
Ananda
p.s: The guru is in you."yogani" |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2008 : 04:57:53 AM
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I have started to look at it from a perspective of timing. When Osho speaks, to whom in which phase of development is he speaking? We don't know, but I have noticed that many teachers says what someone needs to hear RIGHT THEN. It may not be valid later!
If you are a beginner and go into mantra meditation and thinks the mantra "will do it for you", you can easily become attached to the mantra, think your spiritual development is dependent on the mantra! You will cling to it, and I guess that's what Osho and others (like my friend Bernie) says the mantra is stupid. They probably see people get stuck in it. Bernie told me once "don't get attached to the mantra". Here in AYP we also recommend to just do the mantra meditation as natural as if you brush your teeth. You just do it as a habit with no other thoughts around it.
When I met Bernie summer 2007, he poohpooh'ed the I AM meditation, because he saw in which way I used it for MY personal enlightenment, clinging to it, hoping it would save me. 
When I met him now, Oct 2008, I still did the I AM meditation every morning, and he just smiled and started talking the way also Osho does, pointing more towards: Let everything be your object of meditation! Let the meditation expand. No comment on me being attached to the mantra anylonger.
What had changed in my relationship to the mantra? Well, I had realized once that I AM the mantra, so how could I continue to hope the mantra was something mysterious that would "bring me home"? I already am home, although not always aware of it.
Yet, the mantra is still a tool that goes deeper and deeper. Mantra has its own way of working, and it's nothing wrong with it if you don't get attached to it! Just let it go. Every time it comes... let it go... and then you won't fall asleep, you will wake up!  |
Edited by - emc on Dec 13 2008 05:23:36 AM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2008 : 10:03:41 AM
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hello again des022 and read this lesson it will explain a lot:
http://www.aypsite.org/84.html
hi emc, hope you're doing well my friend.
to be honest i think that both Osho and Bernie are wrong and it's true yogani teaches us to let go a lot.
and to put it plain and simple, our evolution is based on kundalini energy which purifies the nervous system gradually during decades and life times.
and if this teacher or that has a sudden awakening and is now teaching of where his state of being is than that doesn't make him such a good teacher instead it makes him a bad one bcz even though a few ripe souls are benefiting from his teachings others are getting lost and living in illusions.
these are the majority practicing unrelational self enquiry living in a fake state of being.
by the way i am not poohpooing Osho's and bernie's instructions on this matter, i'm simply critisizing their wrong methods of teachings even though i know that their intentions are good no doubt about that.
but kundalini is very much involved with conciousness and only when the nervous system is nicely purified then and only then succesful and lasting expansion of conciousness happens.
juts read gopi krishna's book "kundalini the evolutionary energy in man", it shows a lot how kundalini awakening effects conciousness and he did no advaiatan stuff kundalini just went through his nervous system up to the head centers and his conciousness started to expand gradually.
and this work on the nervous system is taken from life to life and it involves works on chakras.
which explains why some times kundalini Shakti is stucked at higher chakras in certain individuals who are new to taking spiritual practices and it stays there due to a blockage and this is why some people are born with specific siddhis related to that chakra plus most of the siddhis we experience those of us who aren't suffering from a lot of blockages are temporary they come and go.
concerning my own personal case i was born with this stuff manifesting inside me, plus i had a premature crown chakra and i am very grateful and always will be for yogani's teaching bcz he saved me from what our friend gopi went through and now my nervous system is responding to advanced yoga practices a lot and i am very much alife more than ever.
and some of the amigos such as krishnamurti experience spontaneous enlightenment bcz their nervous system has been purified in past lifes so they are ready to take on the prana plus the kundalini has reached the place of the sahasrar and it's been waiting there from these past lifes.
oh and by the way, these advaitans are the biggest bhaktis and bhakti purifies the nervous system.
take ramakrishna's well documented example he's one of the biggest bhaktis ever born when he met his advaita teacher he achieved in a month or so i can't precisely remember what it took his guru a life time to achieve and he still didn't achieve as much.
plus there are certain cases which had been through some intense stuff in their life's, take the death of krishnamurti's brother as an example and when did he achieve his state of being.
the reasons for spontaneous enlightenment are many, but the fact remains that we all have to purify our nervous system to be where those spontaneously enlightend are and until now i haven't seen all oprah's audience getting enlightened by Eckhart Tolle's teachings.
so to poopoof this or that teaching is simply wrong, all roads lead to the divine and if a person integrates these roads together then he'll reach the divine a lot faster don't you agree.
wow i've written a lot hehehe.
light and love,
Ananda |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2008 : 10:48:05 AM
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| Osho seems to want to sell his version.......Yogani gives it away. Yogani does not promise things, just puts you in the driving seat of your own experiences. Plus, it's simple and is not full of weird theories of chaos. |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2008 : 12:19:26 PM
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I thought of this simple analogy:
Imagine you know (or hear from others) of a mgnificient treasure buried in the ground. You heard so many great things about it from people who saw it before that you want to see it for yourself. Sometimes you find yourself even consumed by desire. You want it badly, and you want it now.
Well, it does not help, like some people suggest, to just know that the tresure is there and always was and always will be and that there is no need to do anything to change that. But despite how beautiful the descriptions of this maginificient treasure sound to you, you yourself want to take a real good look at the treasure. You want to see for yourself what others describe. You want to feel it, know it, be it.
So then you search for tools to get to the treasure. You find a shovel. It seems like a good shovel. You try it out. Hmmm...it seems to be removing all this dirt quickly and effortlessly at the same time. Hmmm...nice shovel, maybe it's true what they say, if I get all this dirt out the treasure will reveal itself to me. So, the experience of seeing the dirt being removed and the certainty of being closer to the treasure grows stronger and stronger in you thus pushing you even further in your desire and will to keep digging. Until the gold starts shinning through the dirt. Ah...
The mantra is the shovel. Ok, there are other types of shovels or tools: picks, etc. You may decide that the shovel, or that particular shovel, is not the best tool for you and it is ok to go and search for a tool that serves you better. Nothing wrong in that.
What this masters seem to be is people who now found their treasure and look at others digging and say: hey, but don't forget the treasure! And that is a good advice because you may realise that the shovel is such a great instrument, and fall in love with the shovel or with the way it moves and spreads the dirt so fast. You may find your self stairing lovingly at the shovel or you may find yourself delighted with the experience of digging and forget what made you start on this journey in the first place: the treasure! But I think it's simple: if you keep in mind and it is clear to you that your aim is to find the treasure, and that the shovel is just a tool, a great tool, to find it, then you will be alright and it's no-ones business if you decide to keep on using the shovel just because they didn't need to dig to find their treasure, or they used a pick or a spoon or whatever. In other words, do what you think it's right. Just don't think you should do nothing, unless you don't want to find the treasure. Because, like our friend yogani said, doing nothing is in fact doing something. And everybody knows that "just do nothing" is a very difficult thing to do in the first place.
I find this particular shovel working. Of course I am not an expert in spiritual shovels but, well, I tried this one and I see the dirt moving. Great!
I guess that even if you found the treasure, there is always some little dirt around it or some that can fall into it now and then, so you don't lose anyhting by keeping cleaning the dirt around the treasure, with the shovel or a little brush if you prefer Just keep on digging, you are sure to hit it!
All the best and happy digging! 
YIL |
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markern
Norway
171 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2008 : 3:56:57 PM
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| There is also the possibility that Osho was critical of TM because Osho and TM in a sense competed in the same market for the same spiritually seeking people. |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2008 : 4:28:44 PM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2008 : 03:09:48 AM
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Hi emc,
quote:
When I met him now, Oct 2008, I still did the I AM meditation every morning, and he just smiled and started talking the way also Osho does, pointing more towards: Let everything be your object of meditation! Let the meditation expand. No comment on me being attached to the mantra anylonger.
What had changed in my relationship to the mantra? Well, I had realized once that I AM the mantra, so how could I continue to hope the mantra was something mysterious that would "bring me home"? I already am home, although not always aware of it.
Maybe something changed in Bernie? Maybe he is starting to lighten up?
Christi |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2008 : 03:19:45 AM
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Hi Des022
Welcome to the forum
quote:
I enjoy reading some Osho. But he seems to be against TM/mantra meditation. He even calls the mantra stupid. "if you are repeating some stupid mantra" Ive listened to a lot of his discourses online and he seems to bring up TM a lot with nothing good to say about it. He says it is only good for sleep, not for meditation. I am confused by this because AYP is main spiritual practice which I believe is helping me. But Osho says it isnt meditation.
I don't think Osho (or Krishnamurti for that matter) ever studied TM, so they may know very little about it.
If you look at Krishnamurti's critisisms of TM, it sounds very much like he is talking about mantra japa, which is very different from TM. It sounds to me like Osho could also be making the same mistake.
As a matter of interest, Yogani also warns about the dangers of endlessly repeating mantras as a spiritual practice. I do too. It can dull the mind, putting it to sleep, without bringing about an aliveness, and an alertness that is essential for meditation.
Both TM, and the Deep meditation practice here at AYP use mantras in a very different way, cultivating silence and stillness whilst keeping the mind alive and awake.
Christi |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2008 : 09:54:26 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by des022
I enjoy reading some Osho. But he seems to be against TM/mantra meditation. He even calls the mantra stupid. "if you are repeating some stupid mantra" Ive listened to a lot of his discourses online and he seems to bring up TM a lot with nothing good to say about it. He says it is only good for sleep, not for meditation. I am confused by this because AYP is main spiritual practice which I believe is helping me. But Osho says it isnt meditation.
Hi des022, The key thing to know is that without insight into the empty nature of mind no meditation method has any use. Any state of mind, feeling or mood caused by any technique is transient, and not the attainment you seek. To find the deathless, endless, perfected peace, in short order, know the extreme bliss generated by kundalini tantra coupled with the knowledge of mental function available through first mantra, then systematic and habitual observation of the mental constituents. This is the profound path of AYP or any profound path.
Respect and blessings,
TMS |
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jillatay
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2008 : 1:09:52 PM
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Osho is dead, has been for many years. So he can't be for or against much nowadays. 
Jill |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2008 : 5:18:50 PM
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Christi:
I don't think Osho (or Krishnamurti for that matter) ever studied TM, so they may know very little about it.
des022:
I enjoy reading some Osho. But he seems to be against TM/mantra meditation. He even calls the mantra stupid.
Part of the problem is that we expect people to really have become experts when they experience some level of enlightenment themselves. All of these people (Osho, Krishnamurti, TM, Bernie Prior) have some useful things to offer but no-one really holds the perfect key. They are only guides, all of them.
I think a common pattern you'll find is that they know most when talking about their own paths and systems. They know less about other people's paths and systems, so you have to weigh what they say about each other's systems very carefully.
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des022
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2008 : 11:21:25 PM
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| It was really something that I was thinking about a lot and thought I'd make a post about because it was on my mind somewhat bothering me. I am reading the Book of the Secrets and really enjoy it much. I think Rajneesh was one of the most dynamic speakers I've ever heard or read. I find some of the things he says really spell binding. I disagree too with some of what he says, this being the strongest. But AYP is my main practice for well over a year now and I do believe, not every time, but a lot of my meditations I do transcend. It was TM that led me to meditation as I found a branched off style of it given over the internet by x-teachers called natural stress relief. The Science of Being was the first spiritual book I've ever read over 2 years ago. I am currently experiencing strong automatic yoga which has led me to a lot of spiritual reading which leads to a lot of confusion. I find my body does not want to remain still. My head always sways or legs want to move. Sometimes I want to bounce in my chair and experience the cosmic chiropractor shifting me around which Ive read is a good thing. Maybe I should ditch all the other spiritual reading and just stick with AYP because it is the practice Im following and going to stay with this lifetime as I have strong faith in Yogani and feel blessed to have discovered his teachings. |
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des022
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2008 : 11:24:19 PM
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| And personally I agree with the post about Osho being in competition with MMY and thats why he was critical of TM to keep his sannyasins following him |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2008 : 09:23:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by des022
I am currently experiencing strong automatic yoga which has led me to a lot of spiritual reading which leads to a lot of confusion. I find my body does not want to remain still. My head always sways or legs want to move. Sometimes I want to bounce in my chair and experience the cosmic chiropractor shifting me around which Ive read is a good thing. Maybe I should ditch all the other spiritual reading and just stick with AYP because it is the practice Im following and going to stay with this lifetime as I have strong faith in Yogani and feel blessed to have discovered his teachings.
Do you practice asanas? This may help your automatic movements by a lot. And I think you have it right.. self pace on the reading.. esp. if it is causing confusion... there is a time to read (cook on high heat).. then there is a point of saturation when you need to cut back/self pace on the external learning (turn down the heat and let it simmer) and let your inner silence cook the knowledge into knowing. Learning at the mind level can cause confusion, but experiencing the knowledge as knowing from within makes it all clear. |
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Richard
United Kingdom
857 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2008 : 09:59:22 AM
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Excellent advice from Shanti.
Long ago I had similar problems with sometimes very violent movements and thats what brought me to AYP in the first place.
The cure was all the things Shanti sugests plus the inclusion of Spinal breathing and chin pump into my practices. Follow the advice Shanti has given you and if the problem persists try including chin pump into your practices.
See the links Here for more advice.
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jillatay
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2008 : 5:32:45 PM
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Ananda,
Do you think restless leg syndrome could benefit from chin pump as well? Do you think it is a form of automatic yoga? Sometimes I get that and think they are related to self pacing. I have had varying success controlling it with spiritual practices but not always. It can be very uncomfortable.
thanks,
Jill |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2008 : 08:50:31 AM
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Hi Des022,
I think the combination of AYP mantra meditation and AYP self inquiry is hard to beat. Both are a letting go. The habit of letting go develops and fully ripens into the state of dispassion eventually.
If a person wants to call the mantra stupid, well that is their choice. Personally I think it develops a form of invaluable intelligence, that of letting go of thoughts. The little pests! Conversely, no one can argue the value or intelligence of the correct application of self inquiry, unless of course they are stupid. Well, that might be a little harsh. You could argue that they were anyways.
The mantra serves a dual purpose in that, in addition to being a discriminating sounding board or trigger for letting go of mindstuff, the habit of gently favoring the mantra over thought has the primary benefit of loosening up the impurities in the nervous system.
Along those lines, I have a question for you, Yogani. The impurities in the nervous system that you refer to with regards to the effect of the mantra, it is a rather vague and nebulous catch-all phrase that never really gets defined. Or at least I have never seen it clearly defined. Just what exactly are these impurities in the nervous system? Dirt? Artificial preservatives? Asbestos?
I have always thought that the impurities are karmas in the mind, first and foremost, and may manifest in the body in some negative form, all the way from simple chronic muscular tension to some type of serious disease process or deformity.
To me, chronic muscular tension, for example, is representative of some form of mental resistance, some form of holding on rather than letting go. This radiates into the body, via the nervous system, producing a corresponding pattern of muscular tension. When we become conscious of the thought pattern responsible for the physical tension, and successfully let go of it, the chronic tension relaxes.
This happens thru becoming more conscious, or more silent, however you want to put it. Of course, this is what happens when we meditate.
Would you please enhance my understanding of just exactly what these impurities are that we are dissolving with the I am mantra?
Thank you, yb. |
Edited by - yogibear on Dec 20 2008 09:01:02 AM |
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yogani
USA
5243 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2008 : 10:53:58 AM
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Hi YB:
Yes, karma is the answer -- the result of past actions in thought, word and deed, which leave latent impressions on all levels of mental, emotional and physical life.
The primary way of unwinding the latent impressions of karma is not in changing behaviors, nor in dwelling on regret, but in transcending behaviors in stillness through deep meditation. Then both the latent impressions and the behaviors that have caused them become gradually less. We have more freedom to choose (and inquire). Then it is no longer action creating latent impressions, but stillness in action (outpouring divine love) leaving very little impression at all.
Those who are engaged in daily deep meditation notice that actions do not leave the same lingering impressions that they did before. Instead, there is a silent inner witness rising amidst all activities. This is because the latent impressions (impurities) of the past are becoming less, there is more inner silence, and this brings rising freedom. This is the process of human spiritual transformation.
This process can be clearly noticed and is often measurable in improving health and well-being, and the rise of abiding happiness in life. Science is taking note.
The guru is in you.
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2008 : 6:47:40 PM
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quote:
Yes, karma is the answer -- the result of past actions in thought, word and deed, which leave latent impressions on all levels of mental, emotional and physical life.
A great answer to a great question.
It seems we human beings are a little slow to understand that nothing in the world and nobody outside of our inner-self can be a perpetual source of happiness for us. Once this is realized and we cease looking to others or for things that will make us happy, we are on the way to staying with the experience of Being.
From my perspective, impurities stem from action born from the misunderstanding of reality. Once true understanding is conscious, the search ceases and we are fulfilled by our true nature.
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