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satinder kumar
15 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 25 2006 : 7:53:36 PM
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| In his 'autobiography of a yogi' paramhansa yoganand called kriya yoga airplane route to God realization.There is some mystery surrounded around kriya yoga that doesn't allow someone to know about it.Gurus of this line of yoga don't impart this technique unless someone has taken proper initiation and are not allowed to make it public.My question is..,is someone familiar with kriya yoga and how many yoga techniques AYP has borrowed from kriya yoga? |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2006 : 7:57:15 PM
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Kumar,
The Yoga schools in India traditionally used 'secrecy'. Now, by 'school' I mean school in a loose sense, meaning a guru and his group of chelas; or a group of such groups. The 'secrecy' was part of an institution of tradition, and was part-good, part bad. On the good side, secrecy had a useful economic function; you were slowly fed the secrets as you contributed more and more of your money or energy to the School; this sustained the school economically, and if the school was a good one, the result was good. On the bad side, the secrecy was often abused (but by no means always); also, the schools tended to self-mythologize, and there was an escalation of mythologization, with every guru-around-the-corner being seen as a Great Siddha, with magical powers.
Not all great spiritual figures in India had a high regard for the secrecy-systems. One illustrious guru who did not was Siddharta Gautama, the Buddha.
Yogani's writings are the result of a new approach to Yoga teaching. It is 'Open Source' Yoga, maybe as the Buddha would have liked it. It's all put out there for all to see.
My question is..,is someone familiar with kriya yoga and how many yoga techniques AYP has borrowed from kriya yoga?
I have some level of familiarity with one Yoga school led by Swami Hariharinanda. My understanding is that AYP has all of the methods of the Kriya schools and more.
Yogani didn't borrow anything from 'Kriya Yoga' specifically, but rather from the Yoga Tradition in general:
Schools of Yoga, and Types of Yoga are sometimes confused. 'Kriya Yoga' and 'Kundalini Yoga' are not really types of Yoga; they are schools of Yoga. In other words, they represent a curriculum of Yoga, rather than a different type. 'Kriya Yoga' is merely the label given by certain yoga schools to the yoga they teach; 'Kundalini Yoga' is the label given by certain yoga schools to the yoga they teach. In fact, what is called 'Kundalini Yoga' is a set of schools so diverse that there is very little real reason to consider them 'a school' except for the common work 'Kundalini' in their names. Both schools, when they are doing a good job, teach a balanced curriculum of Advanced Yoga, which almost necessarily includes Raja Yoga if it is to be called 'Advanced'. There is so much variation of emphasis within the schools that they overlap: the teachings of a particular 'Kriya Yoga' school and 'Kundalini Yoga' school may be indistinguishable.
In the opinion of some people, (including me) many of the Kundalini and Kriya schools did not emphasize mantra-meditation enough, or early enough; they sometimes tended to present meditation as something to be taught only at the advanced stages of learning, if at all. Consequently, whereas it is possible to learn mantra-meditation through the kriya schools, it would sometimes only happen if you reached the higher stages of initiation, and very few do.
I believe AYP is a very strong curriculum of Yoga, which puts the best of certain other schools together. It has the emphasis on meditation, from an early stage, and also the supporting practices.
I hope that was helpful,
Regards,
-David
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2006 : 8:00:39 PM
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Dear David,
I assume when you speak of Kundalini yoga you are talking about the school of teaching of Yogi Bahjan? This is not in any way akin to Kundalini Maha Yoga which empthasises meditation and japa as the mainstay of practice and development.There are no asanas promoted and very little pranayama although we do spinal breathing (allbeit it is slightly different from the AYP method). The mantras are mantras of siddha which make a huge difference and contrary to your belief the guru makes an enormous difference to your development. Unfortunately very few understand the role of the sadguru and so much controversy surrounds them although in some cases I am sure some of it is justified.
As for economic function, I have received instruction and initiation from my guru often on a daily basis of contact, for absolutely nothing for the three years I have known her! When I went to India I stayed as a guest of guruji on the ashram for 12 days, received food and lodgings and 4 days of shaktipat for £240(about $400)so I doubt if he is going to become a millionaire on this basis.Please don't judge all by stories you may have heard. It is not only unfair, inaccurate but also disrespectful to others.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2006 : 8:01:32 PM
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Dave said:
Please don't judge all by stories you may have heard. It is not only unfair, inaccurate but also disrespectful to others.
Actually Dave, I didn't say a thing that was disrespectful to others at all. You completely misconstrued my post. Watch out for words in my post like 'sometimes' and 'most' and 'often' which are there for a reason. If the words 'every' and 'always' were used instead, you would have reason to complain. Sometimes I think you need to Listen a little more carefully to catch the nuances. You might get a little less huffy sometimes if you caught them.
On the forum, there are three great L's, not just two: Light, Love, and Listening.
I'll underline those important words in my post, and edit in a few words that make it less likely to be misconstrued, although now unfortunately it seems less to the point and more wordy.
The number of schools with 'Kundalini Yoga' in their titles is diverse. More diverse, perhaps, than Kriya Yoga? You know, I only brought 'Kundalini Yoga' in to my post to give perspective on what 'Kriya Yoga' means. I wasn't targetting anyone, or putting anyone or anything down. Your guru's curriculum may indeed be completely free of the weakness I mention. And from the record you mention, it seems unlikely to me that your guru is inclined towards economic abuse of secrecy. Yikes! Make sure you have read the "un" in "unlikely"!
More power to Kundalini Maha Yoga! My posts speaks nothing against it!
L&L&L,
David
P.S. An 'oops, sorry' from you now mightn't be a bad thing.... It's one of those Light-and-Love things you know... You know, when you tell someone they have been unfair, inaccurate and disrespectful of others and they haven't, a little, 'oops sorry' is a good thing. |
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trip1
USA
739 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2006 : 8:02:41 PM
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And the award for most condescending post goes to.....
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2006 : 8:03:19 PM
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Trip1, condescension is an attitude, and I made my post without condescension. You seem to find it in the words, but I don't know why. Unfortunately, when I look back at my words, I find myself unworthy of your reward. But thanks for your implicit offer. Cash prizes will be accepted.
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trip1
USA
739 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2006 : 8:03:55 PM
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Hi David,
While I agree that this "watered down" version of your original reply from yesterday (which was mysteriously deleted along with two other replies) is much tidier than the original, the undertones are still present and quite unnecessary in my opinion.
I could go on, but I feel that it would be a waste of everyone's time. There are far more important matters at hand.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2006 : 8:04:28 PM
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A thing for everyone to keep in mind that I am responding to someone who has said that I am being inaccurate, unfair, and disrespectful of other people, when my post contained nothing of the sort.
Yes, my post contains undertones that would not be present if I were not treated in this way. But what of it? Those who finger other people's posts in such a way should at least listen first, IMHO.
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2006 : 8:05:17 PM
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Dear David,
I am no means 'huffy' regarding your posts.In fact you have in several posts condemned gurus and your opinion of them is well documented within this forum if not in this particular post.Unfortunately you have not had the blessing(or so it seems) of a genuine siddha guru or your opinions may be different.Your beliefs that siddhas do not exist is also well documented.Unfortunately your belief is incorrect and I could feel your 'huffiness'(in fact rage) at my original reply.You seem to feel free to speak your mind openly on this forum without reply.
Your original post spoke of promotion for my sadguru.Neither my sadguru or my guru seek or need your approval for the good work they are doing for mankind.
Oops I do feel sorry for denting your inflated ego.
L&L&LISTENING
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes'
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2006 : 8:06:01 PM
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Dave,
I don't "condemn gurus". There seems to be a recurring problem here with your misunderstanding what I say. I haven't spoken a word against your guru to my knowledge, and I hopefully never will.
I do believe that a huge fraction of the famous ones are not nearly as pure as they claim to be. But that does not mean all. If 90% of the famous gurus are corrupt, that is no reflection on the 10% who are not.
You may think I am putting you and your guru down when I am not at all.
Dave said:
Your original post spoke of promotion for my sadguru.Neither my sadguru or my guru seek or need your approval for the good work they are doing for mankind.
I really am sorry that this seemed mean. I was actually being kindly humorous, and friendly, when I said that your misunderstanding of my post gave you a chance to promote your guru. I don't believe that promotion of a guru is necessarily a bad thing, though it has to be restricted on AYP, just because of the nature of our focus (some of my own posts have to be restricted for the same reason, so I am in the same bad-boys-boat as you, Dave ). So, that part seemed to be mean, so I edited it out. I think your relationship with your guru seems to be a very positive thing for you. When I said "More power to Kundalini Maha Yoga", I really meant "More power to Kundalini Maha Yoga".
Dave said:
Oops I do feel sorry for denting your inflated ego.
Oh that! That would be honorable work, for which you should not apologize!
To some extent, these exceptions you are taking to my posts seem to be misunderstandings. Let us reflect with Light and Love and Humor on the nature of misunderstandings. Maybe you can make an effort to understand me better -- I will make an effort to be more easily understood.
Blessings to you, and may your days go well.
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2006 : 8:06:33 PM
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Dear David,
Actually my reply had been edited by 24 hrs of reflection which I usually do with a 'difficult' post.I apologise if you think I misunderstand your posts but they are quite extreme sometimes IMHO but they are your opinions which I respect.
I have often spoke of 'other ' gurus with my guru and she has admonished me for speaking ill of others.As she has said the maharishi for all his misgivings has done a lot of good to raise spiritual awareness.Within yogic teachings you are no doubt aware that purity of thoughts is required to make progress on your spiritual path.The 'tools' of meditation etc on their own are not enough.I apologise if I have wronged you and I certainly apologise to my soul who is now going to have to wait a bit longer to reach God because of my misgivings.LOL.That damn ego keeps giving me a hard time but it won't win in the end.
L,L,L and blessings,
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes'
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2006 : 8:07:09 PM
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Your apology is accepted as I hope you have accepted mine.
I apologise if I have wronged you and I certainly apologise to my soul who is now going to have to wait a bit longer to reach God because of my misgivings.LOL.
For these particular infractions, hopefully we we will both be sentanced only to the amount of time it took to write the posts. |
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Yoda
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2006 : 8:07:54 PM
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How about, "Love the Guru, hate the Gu."
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ranger
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2006 : 8:08:48 PM
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Regarding the original question, of Kriya yoga and AYP:
I was in SRF for 20 years. Never took all the kriyas, but I've seen them - they pop up online from time to time. The AYP practices contain all the elements and more. The "theory" section, explaining how I can expect this to be of benefit is a lot more clear and to the point. I had deeper results after a month of AYP than after 20 years of the SRF practices, though who knows how much of a foundation was formed in those 20 years?
There is a kriya yoga discussion board where people, most from SRF, wrangle endlessly over what is the "original" or real kriya? Apparently Yogananda taught a different method prior to 1929 and a set of those lessons went for over $400 on Ebay last year. It's a jungle out there!
I suspect when the "airplane route to God statement" was originally made, ca. the 20's and 30's, it was true. If you were spiritually hungry beyond institutional church offerings, what resources did you have? No Zen, no Christian contemplation, no yoga, no Merton, no Suzuki Roshi, no Ram Dass, no dozens of meditation titles on Amazon.
Times have changed. |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2006 : 8:09:23 PM
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Dear Ranger,
I can assure you that the lineage of Kundalini Maha Yoga I belong to is a space rocket and not simply an airplane.Guruji's guru was Dhyanyogi Madhusudandasji who although one of the greatest saints of the 20 th century, was relatively unknown compared to the other saints who popularised themselves through their teachings.Dhyanyogi visited the USA in 1976 , staying for several years before returning to India and crossing in 1994 , aged 117 yrs old.His mahasamadhi is on the ashram at Hansol, Ahmedabad and his energies can still be felt while sitting by his ashes.I was blessed tor eceive shaktipat by his mahasamadhi during his birthday celebrations in 2005. An absolutely amazing and life changing experience.His energies are very gentle and the ashram resonates with gentle energies wherever you walk.Incidentally for all you asana fans, in his biography is a picture of Dhyanyogi in headstand posture at 100 yrs old.He mastered Mantra, Yantra, Hatha, Raja and Jnana Yogas, and became adept at yogic philosophies and scriptures.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes'
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2006 : 8:12:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger
I had deeper results after a month of AYP than after 20 years of the SRF practices, though who knows how much of a foundation was formed in those 20 years?
interesting statement. It does seem, empirically, like the people reporting the fastest and most extreme progress are the ones who struggled along in other paths for long periods of time.
"AYP: The Path For Spiritual Rebounders"?
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2006 : 8:13:45 PM
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That has been my experience as well. After over 20 years of Iyengar Pranayama I found that the AYP practices dramatically accelerated my progress. there is much to be said for laying a foundation though I suspect that a foundation of AYP would be the ideal practice
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2006 : 8:14:26 PM
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Not sure on that last, Victor. I believe that asana practice is best for resolving coarse blocks, and that subtler practices (e.g. AYP) are best for resolving finer ones. That also seems to be the predominant feeling among teachers (including Iyengar, who teaches pranayama only to intermediate students).
Unless you're naturally calm and clear-eyed and full of bhakti and glowing with health and exuberance, I think one can't beat a serious asana practice for at least a couple years as a foundation. Though, unless you're so riddled with depression and anxiety and physical problems that sitting's difficult, it's certainly a great idea to work on AYP concurrently. I wish I had started it 20 years ago - though my progress would surely be a lot slower if I hadn't first laid down a foundation with more grossly physical practice (in my case, asana and some taoist stuff).
Most of us have large boulders to be crushed (not to mention depression and anxiety that make sitting difficult) before our finer blocks can be cleared. But, again, it's never too early to start a more internal practice, e.g. AYP. And I'd definitely recommend AYP over other pranayama/meditation practices.
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satinder kumar
15 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2006 : 8:15:22 PM
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Hai all,
As regards true guru,he is in minority. He is as much in need of you to carry on his legacy as you are of him.He is always on the look out for a true disciple.What they need from you,is true faith,Whether the disciple is deserving for his compassion,is uppermost in his mind.so it is give and take from both sides
Regards. |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2006 : 8:15:59 PM
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No argument about the asana practice Jim. What I meant more specifically is the pranayama. I practiced Iyengar Pranayama every day for over 20 years and do believe that the time would have been better spent after learning to sit regularly and learning the alignment details of sitting (which still falls under asana), that the time would have been better spent with AYP pranayama and meditation than with the Iyengar method
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satinder kumar
15 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2006 : 8:17:20 PM
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Here is some broad reference of kriya yoga,i have gathered for general information:-
Kriya yoga is union with God through certain action or ritual.kriya yoga is a method through which human blood is decarbonized and recharged with oxygen.Extra oxygen is used to revitalize brain and spinal centres Thus yogi is able to prevent the decay of tissues. The advanced yogi transmutes his cells into pure energy. Kriya is an ancient techniqe. Lahari Mahasaya received it from his guru,Babaji who rediscovered it.and clarified the technique after it had been lost in dark ages.
Kriya yoga is refered to by Krishna,india's greatest prophet in a stanza of Bhagvad Gita: "offering inhaling breath into outgoing breath and outgoing breath into inhaling breath,the yogi neutralizes both these breaths,he thus releases the life force from the heart and bring it under his control".Thus the yogi arrests decay of his body by an addition of life force and arrests mutations of growth in the body by apan(eliminating current).Thus nutralizing decay and growth by quieting the heart,the yogi learns life control"
The kriya yogi mentally directs his life energy to revolve,upward and downward around his six spinal centres.one half minute of energy around sensitive spinal cord of man effects subtle progress in his evolution,that half minute of kriya equals one year of natural spiritual progress.The scriptures say that man reqires a million years of normal diseaseless evolution to perfect his human brain sufficiently to express cosmic consciousness.By applying kriya shortcut,yogi can accomplish by intelligent self efforts the same results which nature bring to pass in a million years. of course kriya method can be taken by deeply developed yogis with the guidance of a guru.
The yogi performs a simple,natural process consciously not unconsciously like a slow paced sleeper.he scientfically makes breath unnecessary.The outgoing life force is reunited with subtler spinal energy.Untying the cord of breath which binds the soul to body,kriya serves to prolong the life and enlarge the consciousness to infinity.Attaining the power of sense disconnection the yogi find it simple to unite his mind at will with divinity or matter.
In the Bhagwad Gita shri Krishna says:-"The yogi is greater than the body disciplining ascetics,greater than the followers of jnana yoga or karma yoga,be thou,o disciple Arjuna,a yogi".
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2006 : 8:18:07 PM
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Hello Kumar,
notwithstanding that, what I said above is correct and is worth keeping an eye on. All of the stuff said in that quote you give, written as if to apply to 'Kriya Yoga', apply to Advanced Yoga in general.
Obsidian said:
Schools Schools of Yoga, and Types of Yoga are sometimes confused. 'Kriya Yoga' and 'Kundalini Yoga' are not really types of Yoga; they are schools of Yoga. In other words, they represent a curriculum of Yoga, rather than a different type. Kriya Yoga is merely the label given by certain yoga schools to the Advanced Yoga they teach....;
'Kriya Yoga' is not a distinct type of yoga. For marketing purposes, it is sometimes given a spin as if it is. It's just Yoga (in the authentic Indian sense, not hot-bods-in-asanas).
There, I've said it.
With best regards,
-David
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satinder kumar
15 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2006 : 8:18:51 PM
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Hello David,
You would recognize that Kriya yoga is the most ancient yoga technique that,i think,cover all the aspects of advanced yoga.In the above quote ,my emphasis was on that very point.All yoga schools,as you call them, borrowed techniques from kriya yoga.Yes, people label their yoga as kriya yoga for marketing purposes without knowing full aspects of kriya yoga.people have distorted kriya yoga since the times of paramhansa yoganada.........regards.
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2006 : 8:19:50 PM
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Hi all
Please - help me out here:
I don't understand.......why are the labels so important?
I know so little about Yoga. It used to bother me......but then again......the purification seems to happen anyhow. I ment to catch up and read about Yoga tradition. But for some reason there is no attraction that way for me right now. Maybe later....
What am I missing here?
Why is what we call it more important than the practise itself?
May all your Nows be Here
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2006 : 8:20:23 PM
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Hello Katrine,
What am I missing here?
Why is what we call it more important than the practise itself?
There is likely to be no-one in the discussion who finds what we call it more important than the practice itself.... we are talking about what to call it for reasons to follow....
I don't understand.......why are the labels so important?
So that people know what they are talking about. So that when they use the same words they are not meaning different things and talking at cross-purposes.
So that people know that Kriya Yoga is just Advanced Yoga labelled differently. So that when they do Advanced Yoga they know that Kriya Yoga does not contain something that they are missing. Ironically, I'm actually trying to remove the confusion caused by labels.
And because some of us find it interesting....
You aren't necessarily missing something if you just don't find it interesting.  Maybe this conversation is just not for you.
Regards,
-David
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 26 2006 10:43:40 AM |
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ranger
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2006 : 8:21:56 PM
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quote:
All yoga schools,as you call them, borrowed techniques from kriya yoga
Such a statement is an article of faith, which can't really be argued. That's fine, but I am not as ready to take things on the word of others now as I was several decades ago when I first started serious spiritual practice.
At this time, the questions I tend to ask of a spiritual discipline are things like this: just how is this practice supposed to make me enlightened? How is following this path supposed to lead to an end of suffering? I think those are reasonable questions for anyone to ask before committing years and even decades of their life to a particular path.
I don't have as many decades left as I used to have for fumbling around. That's why I'm here and AYP is my practice.
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