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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 01:22:30 AM
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Thank you very much nice people. It's sad but inspiring to hear those who went through a depression and is living well now. The most terrible thing is that when someone have depression, he/she seems to hold on to those meaningless thoughts and "decided to" ruin the other (more important) parts of their life. At least that's what I've observed.
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I watch videos of them, I can see a smile on my face and I can feel the pain in my heart.
I have very similar feelings as yours, Shanti. Except perhaps that my smile are overwhelmed by the pain. I made many mistakes actively, rather just being ignorant and losing interests. It's easy to say "take it easy" or "relax" to myself. The problem is that I don't want it to be easy, because they are what I value most! Now I tend to be more positive. For most of the time I am no longer in the depression mode. But deep inside me I am still confused and worry much. I learnt much from the experiences, but there's little chance that I'll come up with a similar situations in the future. Hope that's just my illusion.
A long-term depression can change me sharply. Way back in 1998, when I was 16 years ago, I had another depression(not exactly, but I forgot the medical term for it) because of a religious issue. Fear, inner struggles, anxiety all pervaded me 24 hours a day. The result of that 1-year struggle is a switch from a highly devoted Christian to a scientifically oriented guy.
When that's over, it's really over--there were no regrets and pain afterwards. Because only I myself was involved in that religious issue. I found later, that knowing more doesn't mean living better. But I had to move on. And life was not bad for many years.
That's my background. What sharped me most before the current event. May be there will be another transformation, a more balanced one, who knows? And I prefer to think and act positively, unless my emotions burst again: this unstable state has been with me for the past few months.
It's nice to know the nice people here, and that we can talk via e-mail. Indeed my hope is that I don't have to talk about sad things because I don't have any! But soon, I'm afraid, I will burst into tears again. And I won't forget then, that I can still have someone to talk to here.
Alvin |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 03:36:30 AM
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I suffered from depression for years. All better now. It CAN be done.
This is not the advice of AYP, just my own (based in heavy experience): I strongly recommend a vigorous regimen of asana, especially inversions and backbends. Avoid seated forward bends. And if you suspect that your depression is worsening over time, suspend AYP (Yogani disagrees, but classical hatha yogic opinion is that meditation worsens severe depression, and if you're suicidal, don't take chances!!). Use asana to invigorate yourself and work through the coarse blocks, then, when you are more open and stable, come back to AYP to work through the finer blocks. That is the classical purpose of asana: to straighten out body/health/energy problems in prep for deeper work.
Five years ago I hit a bad, bad point...maybe even worse than you could imagine. I did four years of very heavy asana work - 60-90 minutes a day, plus two classes a week. I lived and breathed asana (plus aerobic exercise..that's important, too). It brought me back, and it literally put me back together again (I had been completely shattered inside). And then - and only then! - I started AYP, and was so primed from all the asana work that I made fast progress. It was absolutely the right way to do it. There was absolutely no other way to do it. I'm currently happy (and believe me: I don't use that word lightly!), and am living through something right this sec that is even worse than the shattering experience five years ago. But it can't touch me.
Yoga fixes depression...in time. And the way it does this is complex. But the main help is that it takes you out of the habit of existing in your head (always a problem for depressives). So it's extra important that you not use yoga as a route for intellectualization, i.e. just another opportunity to get tangled up in thoughts. I know you're sick of hearing me caution you on this again and again, but as a former depressive, I can very clearly see this in you, and I sincerely want to help. The mind can be a prison.
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NOTE:
I need to interject a caution. don't START OUT at 60-90 mins a day of asana. Asana, like any yoga practice, requires prudent self pacing. And you mustn't approach it in a brute force way (zestful, yes, forceful, no; think like a child at play rather than like an athlete). Follow your inner guru. Work up slowly.
And get a good teacher. Alvin, you're young and you're depressed. I recommend a vinyasa school (where poses are done in sequences, rather than held for a long time), like Astanga Yoga. It's a bit more invigorating than Iyengar yoga. But a few classes with an Iyengar teacher (if there is one over there) will always help. If you can't find those specific schools, play the field, taking classes here and there, until you find a teacher who feels right. Don't listen to their yoga philosophy - most asana teachers are shockingly naive and shallow on that. Ignore all that. Just find one who seems to understand your body. i know that's a puzzling instruction, but when you find one, you'll know it. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 22 2006 12:45:30 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 08:57:59 AM
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FYI, don't anyone send me a note today --- my email account is temporarily disabled. The note could be lost.
-D |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 09:43:47 AM
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Sounds like Jim's advice is very good. I can say i got rid of my depression also, but in a different way. Wish I would have had Jim's advice so I could have tried that.
Of course Jim (and I too) had the one primary ingredient that is necessary for any therapy to work: The intention for the problem to end, and the willingness to put a constant and massive effort into it.
I used to play little mind games with myself. I would think of my mind as separate from myself. I decided i was going to pull myself out of depression, by observing and trying different things.
I would tell myself "This month you don't get to do *anything* you want to do. We've been doing what you want for years and look where we are.
So this month we only do things for other people. If you run out of stuff to do for other people, you will do something you don't like that is good for you, like exercise."
It was amazing what I found out about myself. When I was following that regimen I was happier. I came to the conclusion that I had no idea how to run my life before, and i had to put more discipline into it. I'm sure that's where I could have used Jim's system had i known about it.
But the point is I found by observing myself that I had certain things i did that made me unhappy. Certain thought patterns that I habitually followed that weren't necessary that I indulged in,
and others that I avoided that could have helped me.
Then aerobic exercise combined with making myself avoid certain thought patterns made a big difference.
This is where you have to be careful of scientific thought. Just because a thought or idea is true doesn't mean you should habitually think it.
So as you follow the asana work, if you become unhappy, examine your thinking. What are you thinking about? Is it to your benefit to be thinking these things?
The best remedy for regret is to live well today. If you did something wrong in the past and regret it today, you're still doing something wrong.
If you hurt someone, do something good for them. Not what you think is good, but what they want; it doesn't have to be related to what you did. If that person isn't available, do that for someone else. give people what they say they want, not what you "know" is good for them.
Well, that's what helped me, but it depends on your life if it can help
you. Each person is different. The main thing is observe your own behavior and look for patterns.
I'm glad you're here- talking stuff over is very good, and it's fun to talk to people halfway across the world! |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 10:20:22 AM
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I've been depressed too. From inside it, it can look as if you can never fix it.
Your mind seems to be very like mine in some ways, with similar strengths and weaknesses, so I might be able to give you special pointers.
Understand that depression talks, and does not tell the truth.
You may be taking what you think is a rational survey of your situation and it is not in fact rational, but rather it is depressive.
For example, say someone lost a lover. They say, 'I'll never find that person again, it will never be the same again, I can never find that happiness again'.
This is false. It's depressively false. It's true in the sense that you will not find the very same thing again. It is false though that happiness can no longer be found. It always can, but not in the very same place, or very same form, that it was in before.
People may tell you to 'look on the bright side' and it may be useless to you. You may need to instead learn when a thought is depressively false.
Those thoughts that tell you that 'if you had the last three years again, you would be happy but otherwise you cannot' -- these are false. They are mistakes. They are wrong. Understand that. Understand that your mind is actually making mistakes because you are depressed.
Understand your mind as a thing which makes mistakes (and forgive it for it). When you think these thoughts, note that your mind has made a mistake again. See it as if it has made a mistake in a calculation, as if you had just wrote 2 + 2 = 3. Be loving towards it. Say 'there it goes, making mistakes again, silly mind'.
This is only one aspect of the 'fix'. Fixing depression, like keeping a garden, is not generally done in one move. It is done in a long sequence of sustained moves.
Here is another 'move' for you. Try this drill on occasion:
Just feel whatever you feel. You have a fast, agile mind and you are probably constantly using your mind to defend yourself from things that feel unpleasant. Possibly always looking for a way out from what feels unpleasant, mind getting more agitated and over-worked in the process. Reverse that. Pull right into your feelings, even if unpleasant. Feel the unpleasantness of it. The sadness. Most of the world is in there with you -- sadness is common. Quit trying to get rid of it by thinking. Have a good strong feel of it, and note that that feeling is part of what it is to be human and to have experienced life. You may get a sense, 'this is sadness, this is pain, not as scary as I thought'. And when you get less scared of sadness and pain, your mind may stop exhausting itself and making itself worse by continuously trying to dart away from it.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Feb 22 2006 12:55:06 PM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 10:42:36 AM
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| Sounds downright Buddhist, David. :) |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 11:11:38 AM
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David, the example you have given will work if you know the reason you are depressed (I think ). However in my case, I had no reason to be depressed. I has 2 beautiful children, a home, a loving husband and family, and yet I was depressed. That is one reason why nobody understood why I was depressed, I did not understand why I was depressed. I looked for support, but people just told me, why would someone who has everything be sad? I asked myself that too. I don't know why I was sad all the time. All I know is that this sadness consumed me. I could not think, I could not feel anything but pain. Fortunately my "mom instincts" did not go away... I think, because when I look at the videos, I see myself laughing and playing with my kids, but my eyes are sad and far away. I don't know if they missed me, I hope they did not, but I surely missed them. How do you overcome depression like this? Truthfully I don't know how I did it. I know medication did not help. I know meditation helped. But how and when I got better, I cannot tell you. Divine intervention I think ...
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 11:21:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
David, the example you have given will work if you know the reason you are depressed (I think). However in my case, I had no reason to be depressed.
Yup. In fact, the worst thing you can ask a depressed person is "why are you depressed?" The question itself is depressing.
My depression was like that. Unspecific. Sure, I could point to things that got me down, but it wasn't really the things; it was the depression that made those things depressing in the first place.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 11:30:47 AM
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Yes Shanti, every depression is different. The fixes that work for one do not necessarily work for another. Just like something going wrong in a garden, the cause could be weeds, bad weather, insufficient fertilizer, too much fertilizer, bad soil, pests and so on. Or all of the above. The fix that will work is the one that happens to match the particular problem(s).
When it hits, the underlying problem(s) which are causing it may have been there for years.
Sometimes depression does not seem to have a cause. It may have causes we don't know. It may be significantly physical or genetically determined in some cases.
And it may lift without the reasons for its lifting being known.
By the way, Omega-3 fish oil supplements may be a good organic support to help lift or avoid depression. There is a theory that the common vulnerability to depression after childbirth is caused by omega-3 depletion in a woman's body during pregnancy. What is known is that Omega-3 is significantly depleted in a woman during pregnancy. It may take years to build it up again, and a second or further child can deplete it more. This could be of particular interest to you.
Have you tried taking fish oil supplements regularly? They certainly help me. click here
Using British data compiled from 14,541 women who were expected to deliver between 1991 and 1992, the researchers used a statistical model to analyze the association between omega-3 fatty acids and depression.The subjects' omega-3 intake was recorded at 32 weeks' gestation and was compared to the mothers' scores on a standardized depression test given at 18 and 32 weeks' gestation and again at eight and 32 weeks after birth. Even after the researchers adjusted the data for confounding factors such as age, prior history of depression, education and substance abuse, the association remained strong.
Their findings were supported by an additional analysis, which showed that in countries where omega-3 intake is the highest, the incidence of depression appears to be the lowest. "We suspect that too little omega-3 in the diet may be a risk factor for depression," Davis says.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Feb 22 2006 11:51:49 AM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 11:41:39 AM
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| Thanks David. I will try the fish oil. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 12:43:34 PM
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| Just a note that I added a note of caution to my posting above (the one that starts with "I suffered from depression for years. ") |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 5:40:28 PM
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Dear Jim,
The reason why meditation is believed to make depression worse IMHO is the fact that the purification effects are greater leading to a greater amount of cleansing in a short time
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 03:01:48 AM
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Thanks, Jim and David. In fact I'm doing quite a lot of asana (about 1 hour a day, but sometimes up to 2.5 hour) And yes, the vinyasa type is my favourite. It helps me when I am feeling weak. The only problem is that when I'm deeply depressed, I don't want to do anything (even if I know they're good for me)
The method you mentioned sounds promising for me, David. (in which case depression is always due to SOMETHING) It's "witnessing without (value/moral) judgement", right? I guess it requires some concentration (to maintain this quality of wittnessing rather than falling back into crazy thoughts), so may be it takes time to develop the habits.
Shanti, let me give you some advices on supplements: try to find the brand of fish oil that guarantee "free of mercury" (and may be other heavy metals, though mercury is the most dangerous.) Fish oil is great, but heavy metals like mercury can damage your nervous system seriously, leading to depression, loss of memory, decline of cognitive function, damaged kidney, etc. Just about every bad things you could think of. The best way (which I'm doing) is to take plant-based DHA/omega 3 supplements, or even better from natural sources. One of the best source of omega 3 is flaxseed. Grounded flaxseed is the best. For plant-source DHA, you can look into something like the following page: click here
May be I am over-concerned about the danger of heavy metals (given the well-supported research on fish oil). But I prefer to be absolutely safe and not have something so toxic cumulating in my body.
During my depression, I took something like 30 kinds of supplements with a total of over 60 capsules per day. They didn't help me much. But I learnt much about the common supplements in the process. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 09:45:27 AM
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Regarding the fish oil, yes, I was going to mention that myself. Fish oil from the North Atlantic is generally fine.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 09:49:18 AM
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Alvin said:
The method you mentioned sounds promising for me, David. (in which case depression is always due to SOMETHING) It's "witnessing without (value/moral) judgement", right? I guess it requires some concentration (to maintain this quality of wittnessing rather than falling back into crazy thoughts), so may be it takes time to develop the habits.
It's like witnessing but a little different, depending on what is meant by 'witnessing'. In witnessing, one may be searching an emotionally neutral position. I am NOT suggesting emotional neutrality at all, in fact I am telling you to FEEL the emotions. Because I think you need it; I think you are imbalanced towards thinking, and are consistently trying to defend yourself from your negative feelings by thinking your way out of them.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Feb 23 2006 09:49:40 AM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 09:59:23 AM
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| Well that is interesting. My husband take fish oil regularly. I better check and see where his comes from. Thanks all. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 10:20:53 AM
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| If his fish oil is not from the North Atlantic, don't panic. |
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satyan
34 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2006 : 07:05:59 AM
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hi Alvin,
i think this would help. i have a strong feeling always that my life is destined. what i am going to be and what i will be is destined. i have come across situations like you said, making terrible mistakes and getting deeply depressed because of those terrible mistakes. but whenever i feel depressed i come out of it with the above thought. it has helped me a lot. it has helped me get positive. it has given me the strength to face things. i believe you have a strong belief in God, whatever faith it may be. pray with a true heart to help you out, believe me it does wonders. i have practically experienced it. yoga on the other hand will be help you a great deal in staying calm and taking the right decisions in troubled situations. just try the above mentioned. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2006 : 09:02:00 AM
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Very good insight, Satyan.
I would like to add that my belief is our destiny is to fulfill a particular purpose.
I believe God has not destined exactly what we will do in life, but rather the purpose
we are to serve, and it is up to us to find that purpose, and how to serve it. |
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satyan
34 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2006 : 09:45:51 AM
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| Yes Etherfish i do agree with that. Each of us have a purpose and it is up to us to find that purpose and serve it. |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2006 : 10:30:32 AM
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Thanks satyan. Your suggestions remind me of many things. I was once a dedicated Christian, when the concept, the form of "God" was much clearer then. For many years, the concept of god disappeared for me. In recent years, I have a concept of god again, but in a much vaguer way: in Chinese it's Tao, it's the rules and truth of the universe; not someone who thinks and plans like us.
I seldom think of this when I am depressed, so I have to try if it would help. But it would be more difficult for me than for those who have a clearer form of god. So sometimes I envy much about those who have a form for their god. I envy those Christians. But it doesn't mean I can be a Christian again. Well, not in the usual sense. Why?
Imagine you and your friends are being locked in an airtight room with walls of 5cm thick stainless. All guys are sleeping, without knowing that all of you will die very soon. Suddenly you wake up, and discover that you will die soon. You are full of fear and despair, simply because you are awake! So you will probably envy those who are still asleep. But you will not be able to fall into sleep again (until the last few minutes!).
Sadly, I still can't find a purpose. Maybe that's why I get lost. I had some goals and purposes before. But now I don't think they are meaningful. I think about going to the poor cities of Mainland China and teach the poor kids. That's very meaningful. But I don't think I can overcome the loneliness there. I will get crazy from that.
May be, as my inner silence grow, it will become my "god"? A god which gets along with, or is the same as, Tao? A god which will inspire me of my true purpose?
I am waiting for my prayer again, in the form of samyama. But until the inner silence manifests (if it will?), I have to face many hurdles, fears and despair. God is very far away from me now. |
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Richard
United Kingdom
857 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2006 : 11:07:06 AM
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HI Alvin
You can never be far from god nor can god ever be far from you we are all one. have a look at lesson 254 and remember the one is IN the many and the many are IN the one 
http://www.aypsite.org/254.html
Blessings
RICHARD |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2006 : 11:32:07 AM
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Meditation lowers the metabolism and is introspective. Depressives need to speed up and get out of their heads.
quote:
Originally posted by riptiz
Dear Jim,
The reason why meditation is believed to make depression worse IMHO is the fact that the purification effects are greater leading to a greater amount of cleansing in a short time
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes'
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2006 : 12:00:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Alvin Chan
Thanks, Jim and David. In fact I'm doing quite a lot of asana (about 1 hour a day, but sometimes up to 2.5 hour) And yes, the vinyasa type is my favourite. It helps me when I am feeling weak. The only problem is that when I'm deeply depressed, I don't want to do anything (even if I know they're good for me)
Ok, this is all very good. And you've thought of something I didn't. Yeah, the "barrier to entry" of vinyasa (i.e. having to expend SO much energy) is quite high when you're in the middle of a depression. Makes sense. Ok, then. May I suggest two things?
On Good Days:
The vinyasa you're doing on "good days" is super. It's clearing out your coarse blocks and stoking your energy. But if you're not in good alignment, then it won't work as efficiently....and the vinyasa teachers tend not to teach precise alignment (even the luminaries of astanga yoga tend to be a little out of whack). If you're not in alignment, the energy isn't running fully free. I'd strongly suggest you find an alignment-oriented teacher to work with a LITTLE, just to smooth out any issues and bad habits. Look for Iyengar http://www.iyengaryoga.com or anusara http://www.anusara.com teachers. It may also be helpful to get a book called "Yoga the Iyengar Way", which is a really clear explanation of the subtleties of the basic poses. The book seems simple, but I've nearly worn it out over the past 12 years. Great details...the stuff they mention just in passing is the good stuff!
On Bad Days:
Here's what you ought to shoot for as a bare minimum. Chest opening. That's what it all boils down to. the Iyengar system has developed "restorative" ways of doing asanas that are passive and require no energy, but there are ways to use blocks and bolsters (big pillows) and blankets to put your body in the position where the energy can flow, open up your chest, and that's exactly what you need. I learned it in classes, so I haven't used a book for this, but I just looked around Amazon and this looks like a great guide: "Relax and Renew" by Judith Lasater. I hope you'll buy it. You'll need to spend some money to buy a bolster and stuff (if money's a problem, email me and I'll chip in some). But if you'll get into restorative yoga, mostly chest openings, you'll have huge results, I can honestly promise you. At very very least, it's something you absolutely will be ok doing during all but the most severe depressions.
Here's the basic chest opener, to get you started (Victor, correct me if I get this wrong, ok?). Take a yoga block (never buy the plastic ones, which won't support your weight....must be made from wood) and place it on end on the floor. Lay down on your back on top of the brick with the brick just below shoulder blades (with the narrowest edge facing your neck). Try to relax everything. Breathe. Move the brick very slighly up and down every few minutes.
Actually, that's an extreme one. You may perceive it to be painful (it's not really pain...it's energy hitting blockages...and it goes away pretty fast). But it's a cure for what you've got. There are gentler versions of this in the book, where you use softer, lower things like blankets and bolsters.
If you need more tips, start a thread in the "asana" section. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 26 2006 12:02:40 PM |
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yogani99
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2006 : 12:01:55 PM
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Hi Jim:
The deep meditation we do here is not introspective. It is the centering of attention in inner silence. It is away from introspection, not toward it. It is toward inner stability -- calming of the restless mind at its root in consciousness, especially between sessions, which is when we all need it.
Other forms of meditation may focus on the content of the thinking process, in which case I would agree with you. But in the case of deep meditation, we are going beyond the thinking process, stabilizing it from within.
As for metabolism, yes, it slows down during deep meditation. Then we get up and go be active in the world, which integrates inner silence with activity. No introspection there either. It is not a path of withdrawal into the mind. This approach is beyond introspection and any tendency for depressive thinking that may exist. It is not involved with the content thinking at all!
The guru is in you.
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a painful path and spiritual friends
