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interpaul
USA
524 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 03 2021 : 5:11:39 PM
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| I have shared many of my fears on this forum and today I wanted to share some of my joy. During meditation this morning I reached a new level of inner calm and ecstasy. As I reflect on this and many similar experiences the idea of an old fashion radio dial comes to mind. As one turns the dial one hears all sorts of static until one gets closer to the channel. Fine tuning the dial at that point ultimately leads to the experience of a clear rich sound. In meditation I became aware of that ecstatic energy one is aware of at different levels depending on ones focus. I was keenly aware that energy is always there but often I just can't feel it. These practices are wonderful in how they seem to allow for a deeper and deeper exploration into this ecstatic energy. The richness grows pared with the inner silence. When I've heard the statement "I am that" I wonder if it is that energy being pointed to. I also sense this energy, although accessible to me is beyond me, an amazing gift. I've never been a religious person but I sense this is the energy that infuses all of life, the oneness enlightened folks speak of. Thank you all for your support on this journey. I feel like it is really a homecoming, a return to a place I've known since I was a small child but one that has been obscured by so much pain and negativity that is projected onto each of us by less aware individuals. |
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Blanche
USA
859 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2021 : 12:05:29 PM
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Dogboy
USA
2195 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2021 : 2:48:17 PM
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quote:
Fine tuning the dial at that point ultimately leads to the experience of a clear rich sound.
All anchored by the “anti sound”, the deep well of inner silence… |
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interpaul
USA
524 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2021 : 4:58:43 PM
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| Dogboy, I agree the analogy has limitations. Interestingly, as I believe I share with you, that inner silence is greeted with an inner tone that is calming. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2021 : 08:05:27 AM
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Hi Interpaul
What will happen if you don't fine tune the dial? Can any meditation sitting be the same like the next one? What will you do then? Slip into fear and disappointment? Wait for the next "fine tuned "sitting in order to feel joy?
Conditional joy does not seem to be joy
Fluctuating between polarities of fear and joy is not the solution either...maybe it is time to be completely comfortable with both opposites whenever they happen?
Check lesson 397 about meditation and analysis paralysis...the lesson additions are good too
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interpaul
USA
524 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2021 : 8:28:11 PM
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| Maheswari, That was a bit of a buzz kill! Seriously I appreciate your sober perspective. I did re-read lesson 397. I have fully embraced being present in the meditation sessions and favoring the mantra while meditating. I do enjoy trying to "understand" the meaning of certain experiences as they help me to continue on the path. You rightly point out the trap of feeling disappointed if/when these experiences aren't reproduceable. This experience connected me with a knowing/experiencial connection with ecstatic bliss. Feeling that and reminding myself of how accessible it is, more and more with meditation, gives me hope and boosts my bhakti. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2021 : 9:17:43 PM
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Hi Interpaul
Buzz is for new seekers to keep them practicing and to encourage them.One can't stay in kindergarten the right questioning is needed to avoid looping which is what you do.
There is an ups and downs pattern in your posts, the ups /downs are enjoyable/ misery cause they give you an identity.This is how the ego thrives.
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sunyata
USA
1506 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2021 : 10:47:48 PM
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| Sounds beautiful Interpaul. Thank you for sharing. |
Edited by - sunyata on Aug 05 2021 10:48:07 PM |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2021 : 11:33:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by interpaul
I feel like it is really a homecoming, a return to a place I've known since I was a small child
Yes, you are well on your way. Godspeed |
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interpaul
USA
524 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2021 : 08:31:09 AM
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| Maheswari, I felt judged by your comments. I do hear your message and am trying to understand what you are trying to communicate. The simplified version of your message seems to say "grow up and stop doing what you are doing". If you have some wisdom you'd like to share as to HOW, I'd be interested in hearing it. I am a genuine seeker. I am in my late 50s and have been at this for a long time, although a relative newcomer to AYP. I share my experiences to connect with the community, engage in dialogue, and learn from others. My hope is honest sharing may help others who also struggle. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2021 : 09:55:06 AM
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Hi Interpaul
I am sorry you felt judged but this was not my intention
Why would I judge you? I was in the same looping situation for years , many know that in the forums and in private emails
I do realise that my words might be too sharp noting that some traditions are similar in that regard .They use sharp words with committed students when that student is on a self sabotaging trend
I have said in previous posts that you are a serious seeker, there is no need to repeat that, just know that is the reason I post killing buzz posts for you ( from your point view).If you were new or just wasting time in the forums I would have given encouragement or not replied
There is nothing for you to do besides keeping the practices going .Just add the noticing of how the mind goes from one opposite to the other ( both opposites are to be disregarded).
What remains is a natural state, untainted with any superposition
It is like croissants, you have the plain
( natural state) croissants, then flavours are added , thym flavour, almond flavour  |
Edited by - maheswari on Aug 07 2021 09:56:13 AM |
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Zaelithe
United Kingdom
33 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2021 : 2:41:27 PM
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Hi Interpaul,
I would just like to say that I really hope that you keep on sharing! You so often ask the questions that I would like to ask, or raise or issues that are pertinent to me also. You have a facility with words and an open honesty that exceeds mine - so I am grateful for your posts and the wisdom that flows from our community out of them. Thank you  |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2021 : 4:58:58 PM
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| Natural state please elaborate Maheswari then we can get down to the nitty gritty and have proper debate about superposition ,concept ,precepts no croisants here just high brow words and there uses . |
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Dogboy
USA
2195 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2021 : 6:30:35 PM
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quote:
Hi Interpaul,
I would just like to say that I really hope that you keep on sharing! You so often ask the questions that I would like to ask, or raise or issues that are pertinent to me also. You have a facility with words and an open honesty that exceeds mine - so I am grateful for your posts and the wisdom that flows from our community out of them. Thank you
Agreed |
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interpaul
USA
524 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2021 : 6:58:21 PM
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Maheswari, Thank you for your response. I have created an image in my head of you as the stern zen master yielding a hard stick walking behind his students ready to bring them back into the moment if their minds wander. Ultimately, if one's goal is to grow in understanding on the path, different teaching approaches are needed by different students. I appreciate you bringing your style to this forum.
Zaelithe, Your words touched me. I believe we all want to be heard and appreciated, you have done both with your loving response. |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2021 : 7:59:03 PM
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| a zen master beat his student and said "you are wasting my time and enlightenment is far from your gaze "the student replied "oh master i only wish i could be as enlightened as you think you are "the master at this instant gave up his robe and bowed to the student then using his beating stick for firewood boiled some water and made tea . |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4365 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2021 : 9:19:18 PM
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Hi all,
There was a monastery in Japan where the abbot of the monastery decided to retire. He wanted to appoint one of the monks to take his place after he retired. So, he decided to have a competition where the winner would replace him. Anyone who wanted to enter could write something about enlightenment on a slate and put it outside the meditation hall. Then the next morning, the abbot would come and judge what was written on them and decide who had won.
There was one monk who was more senior than the others and everyone thought he would become the abbot's successor. Everyone was waiting to see what he would write. He brought out his slate and on it he had written: "There is a mirror covered in dust. Through practice we slowly remove the dust. When the dust is removed, we are able to see everything clearly."
Seeing this, everyone thought that he would win. Other monks entered and brought out their slates as well. Then a boy who worked in the kitchen came out to look at the slates. When he saw the slate written by the more senior monk, he went to get a slate of his own. On it he wrote: "There is no mirror and there is no dust, and there is no one who can clean it. Seeing this we see everything clearly".
When the abbot came the next morning he read the slates and announced that the kitchen boy would become the next abbot.
This story is based on the teachings of advaita vedanta, which go right back to the vedas. It is not a teaching that everyone is ready to hear. Paradoxically, to be able to understand it, we have to spend a long time doing yoga practices. When we have done a lot of practice already, are ripe, and have cleared most of the dust from the mirror, then we are able to understand stories like this. Before then, they can simply be more confusing than helpful. This is what Yogani means by "relational inquiry" and why he devoted so much time explaining this concept in the Self Inquiry book.
In AYP it is left to the individual to decide when they are ready for advaita teachings. But, if they seem more confusing than helpful, then best to leave them and to focus on practice for the time being. Advaita teachings will still be there when we are ready, and by that point, we will hardly need them, because they will be all around us, everywhere we look.
This discussion may be helpful:
Self-inquiry, the witness and non-duality
Christi |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2021 : 09:34:25 AM
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Hi Kumar
What is wrong with croissants?? It is a very down to earth analogy.
As far the zen analogy you gave,I don't think anything special about myself.
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Hi Interpaul
Whatever image of me or anyone/anything you create is your perception.Dont hang on to them, cause things keep fluctuating and thus not true |
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Buffle37
Switzerland
79 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2021 : 10:03:58 AM
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Hi Christi,
This story typically Zen (Chan) is attributed to Houeï-Nêng. I quoted it in my newsletter no 17 with this commentary about lessons 282 and 283:
……………………………..
Yogani insists that the current state of our nervous system does not allow us to perceive this reality. It is there from all eternity and we are already this reality without knowing it.
He is thus positioning in a controversy that has been going on for centuries.
Already, in the seventh century of our era, to a monk who spoke of cleansing the body and the mind:
"From time immemorial, I strive to wipe them,
So that they are not covered with dust."
Huineng, the sixth patriarch of Chan, replied in verses that have remained famous:
"Buddha nature is always immaculate.
Where would one find dust?"
……………………………………………….
Hi Interpaul,
About ecstatic conductivity, I think lesson 258 is important.May be not now for you but perhaps in the future. That's the state I'm in and it's hard to deal with.
Didier
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2021 : 11:40:03 AM
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Lovely story telling, thanks Christi and Buffle, and Kumar - brilliant little story, very wise and very funny.
quote:
Originally posted by kumar ul islam
oh master i only wish i could be as enlightened as you think you are
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
When we have done a lot of practice already, are ripe, and have cleared most of the dust from the mirror, then we are able to understand stories like this. Before then, they can simply be more confusing than helpful. This is what Yogani means by "relational inquiry" and why he devoted so much time explaining this concept in the Self Inquiry book.
In AYP it is left to the individual to decide when they are ready for advaita teachings. But, if they seem more confusing than helpful, then best to leave them and to focus on practice for the time being. Advaita teachings will still be there when we are ready, and by that point, we will hardly need them, because they will be all around us, everywhere we look.
Of all the wisdom in AYP, I sometimes think that this might just be the greatest. We cannot reason our way into enlightenment. Even if one is a "serious student", beating the mind with a stick is unproductive and rather painful to watch. |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Aug 08 2021 1:05:08 PM |
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Zaelithe
United Kingdom
33 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2021 : 4:39:57 PM
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https://youtu.be/4KXidr0z1RY
Christi,
Thanks for the reassurance about Advaita. I don’t think I am ‘ripe’ to really get it yet - I still lose myself in pointless intellectual striving to understand it. The link I have given above is to a very amusing cartoon called ‘the Advaita trap’ and clearly shows how it can all go wrong. It served as a useful warning to me years ago when I met someone who became quite joyless by going down that path. I’ll just keep practicing and hope to’ripen’. |
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interpaul
USA
524 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2021 : 6:29:25 PM
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I really appreciate all of the engagement from each of you.
Christi, Your reminder that relational self inquiry and the awakening of non dual awareness requires ripeness in the seeker has been something I've taken to heart. I have incorporated "I thought, who am I" into my Samyama practice and will just continue on without any additional focus on this until it calls to me.
Maheswari, I was just being playful in describing you as the stern Zen teacher. I do not know you beyond your words but appreciate the opportunity to interact with you and gain insight from the struggle in trying to understand your perspective. I do realize the ultimate goal is abandoning trying to understand. I enjoyed your plain croissant analogy.
Didier, Nice to see you join the conversation. I do recall lesson 258 really speaking to me. If you look at some of my posts over the last couple years you will see ecstatic conductivity has been a gift and a source of fear for me. I have come to trust in Yogani's teachings as everything he has shared has come true. I hope you are able to find the balance with your EC as it really is a gift. You may just need to dial things back.
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Blanche
USA
859 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2021 : 12:59:15 PM
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The contradiction between different spiritual statements is similar with the problem of giving reports about an elephant in the dark. These statements are evolving perspectives on the same path. It is good to know that our beliefs about the reality and our self-identity evolve. We may see the mind as a mirror covered by dust that can be removed with practices to allow the true nature shine. The perfect Buddha nature is there, unaltered. We may get to a point to see that nothing really affects our true nature – and any problem was due to a misunderstanding. Our evolving beliefs and identity are rings on a spiritual ladder: we have to let go of the previous one to reach for the higher ring, hold on it, and eventually push and let go of it.
There is a subtle judgement that the advaita perspective is somehow better than others. It is just another step, and another invitation to let go – or hang on for dear life and get stuck. It is good to recognize that others go through these steps just like we have done, and not push concepts or realizations that are not true for them and/or us. It is not enough to say "there is no problem, everything is perfect" and so on. As the saying goes, "Do not mistake understanding for realization, or realization for liberation."
Along the way, one constant remains: meditation. |
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interpaul
USA
524 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2021 : 10:21:55 PM
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| Blanche, Thank you! This is a beautiful way to reframe this issue. |
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radio analogy
