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Clear White Light
USA
229 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 06 2010 : 2:20:01 PM
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Often times when I meditate, I find that I spend the entire duration of the session without once losing the mantra. According to the method of deep meditation, the goal is to allow the mantra to refine to the point that it merges with inner silence. If we never "lose" the mantra, does that mean it will never reach a state of refinement that it could be said to have "merged with inner silence" ? Or does the process of inner purification not necessarily depend on us losing the mantra?
Also, I feel it important to add that while I am not losing the mantra to the point that I stop repeating it, that does not mean that I don't experience thoughts and feelings. However, my thoughts just occur simultaneously with the mantra.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 07 2010 : 8:11:00 PM
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Hi Clear White Light,
Yes, thoughts can happen at the same time as the mantra is happening. Something else is happening as well, which is silence. Between the ending of every repetition of the mantra and the beginning of the next is a space, which is silence. Between the ending of each thought and the beginning of a new thought is silence. You can begin to notice these spaces of silence in your mind, and as you notice them, they become stronger. Eventually, you become so aware of the spaciousness of silence, that you can notice the silence which holds and surrounds each thought, or each repetition of the mantra. So there can be sound and silence happening together.
For me this is really the way in which the mantra becomes refined into silence. It is not like it gets quieter and quieter and then... boom, silence everywhere. It is more that you become more aware of the silence than of anything else going on.
Another way of thinking about it is as "stillness" (and Yogani often uses the terms "inner silence" and "stillness" interchangeably). Whatever is happening in your mind, something is always not moving. It is always completely still. In that still-point, and radiating from it, is silence.
Christi |
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Clear White Light
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2010 : 10:20:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
For me this is really the way in which the mantra becomes refined into silence. It is not like it gets quieter and quieter and then... boom, silence everywhere. It is more that you become more aware of the silence than of anything else going on.
Hi Christi,
This has been my experience as well. Not to say that I haven't experienced moments without thought..in fact, they happen all the time now. But now I am constantly aware of the silence which surrounds and contains each thought, just as you said. Also, where in the past (before beginning daily meditation about 8 months ago) it seemed as if my thoughts came flying at me stacked 10 deep, now they seem to appear one at a time in a much more uniform fashion; Always emerging from a clearly perceptible backdrop of silence.
Could that also be an example of 'stillness in action'? The simultaneous perception of both activity and the silence which frames it? |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2010 : 4:06:47 PM
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Hi ClearWhiteLight,
quote:
Hi Christi,
This has been my experience as well. Not to say that I haven't experienced moments without thought..in fact, they happen all the time now. But now I am constantly aware of the silence which surrounds and contains each thought, just as you said. Also, where in the past (before beginning daily meditation about 8 months ago) it seemed as if my thoughts came flying at me stacked 10 deep, now they seem to appear one at a time in a much more uniform fashion; Always emerging from a clearly perceptible backdrop of silence.
Could that also be an example of 'stillness in action'? The simultaneous perception of both activity and the silence which frames it?
Yes, I think this is the most useful way to perceive silence in meditation. Otherwise it can become a battle against the mind, with thoughts/ objects usually winning.
But if we are looking for silence around thoughts, or around the mantra, then it can always be felt. One of the ironic things about inner silence is that it can sometimes be very loud. 
When the attention begins to rest within the silence surrounding thoughts, or surrounding the mantra, that is when thoughts stop (the thoughtless state), or when the mantra refines to silence (samadhi).
So by constantly bringing our attention back to the mantra when it wanders off, we are actually bringing our attention to that which exists before all sound. In fact, before all things.
So for me, the important thing is to become used to resting in the silence surounding sound. Then, if thoughts stop, or the mantra refines to stillness, it is a side effect of that.
Christi |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2010 : 04:00:20 AM
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| Very interesting. I would like to also point out you can block your mind from thinking anything for some time but, that, I have found is very different from real inner silence or stillness which as Christi says is found between and around the mantra and thoughts. |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2010 : 11:28:49 PM
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Thanks for the link to lesson 195, it was helpful for me as I haven't read ahead that far. I have some questions that are related to this post.
I also have the experience that I can hold the mantra for an entire meditation if I want to, but usually I don't want to do that, and would only do it to occasionally experiment and see what happens. What happens for me is that I don't go as deep or as still. I think it is because in order to hold the mantra for the entire time, I need to be strong in my attention, and it takes a lot of effort. All of that effort prevents me from relaxing and becoming still. The mantra stays strong, but it continues to get hammered by thoughts.
What I usually do is repeat the mantra for about a minute, and slowly let it fade. By fade, I mean that I start out with a clear pronunciation, it almost feels like it is emanating from near my mouth like I were internally voicing it. Then as I let it fade, it goes into my brain, and I am repeating it with thoughts. I can no longer feel the words by my mouth and throat, but I can "feel" them somewhere in my head. These two levels have the effect of crowding out other thoughts, but in order to get to silence, it must fade further. So I let it go softer, down to whispers of thoughts. Now it is like the mantra is nowhere, not in my thoughts or brain. It is just at the edge of consciousness. If I can sense the total stillness at this point, then I let go of the mantra entirely, and I go to the stillness, and just sit and enjoy it. That is the pure bliss consciousness to me. No thoughts, no mantra. It's like this, I use the mantra to refine and purify my thoughts down to one thing, the mantra. Then once nothing else is left besides the mantra, I slowly let go of it too (not all at once, it must slowly become still, like letting a water surface settle), and then there is nothing.
Then eventually something will grab my attention and upset the stillness, and I go back to the mantra and repeat the whole process. Once I'm in stillness, I can often times go back to it after a thought disturbance by just repeating the mantra between 1 and 5 times. But I take longer to recognize the disturbance, then it grows larger and it might take longer to get back to stillness.
My inner guru tells me that I am doing this correctly. And I really liked that lesson 195 because it confirmed what my inner guru was telling me, which is that it is not so much how I get to the stillness that matters. What matters is that I am getting there. And I am very still in mind and body when I get to that silence. My breathing is greatly reduced, even less than sleep. And it's just common sense, it feels quiet! I feel this ringing silence like I'm sitting out in the country in the middle of the night. But it's a background silence. All the while the sounds of the city are still going, but I can "hear" this silence at the same time. But I wonder, does anybody have experiences of maintaining a very soft, and refined mantra throughout the whole meditation? By which I mean, taking the mantra softer and softer like I described above, but still holding it instead of letting go. Has anybody tried both ways and preferred one or the other?
Jeff |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2010 : 02:20:30 AM
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hi Jeff, seems like you're doing well.
the best process is to let go with the attention going along with the mantra and when we find ourselves off it we come back to it it's pretty simple really like a game.
we shouldn't force things, it's really a process of refining and letting the mantra and our attention take the mind into stillness.
i liked the 1 to 5 times repeat you mentioned, that's a very good sign of progress it means that there's some very stable background of inner silence present.
later on just by closing your eyes you'll go deep even without using the mantra... but of course we still need the mantra to go much deeper still bcz there is no end to infinity... you know!
and after that it's no longer about ourselves, it's about others...
in case you haven't, you should consider taking on samyama practice cz you seem ready for it.
i personally overload from the normal version, so i have my own which involves only 4 to 6 repetitions of Self enquiry.
Yogani has added it as a sutra as well to the samyama practice in the lessons.
take care bro, and i wish you all the best on your path "enjoy."
namaste |
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Jaycee
United Kingdom
48 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2010 : 06:27:48 AM
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| I would just like to thank JDH for his very helpful suggestions about refining the mantra and allowing it to fade into silence. Previously the mantra tended to remain rather mechanically repeating itself at a constant level. Now I have more silence emerging during my meditation and I am also aware of much stronger vibrations of energy too - almost distractingly so! |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2010 : 10:48:02 AM
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I'm glad that helped Jaycee  Keep experimenting though, because I think there's something more to the other way that I'm just not getting yet. Mostly because that's what yogani says, and a lot of forum posts as well. I've ordered the Deep Meditation and Samyama books to hopefully shed some light on it.
Ananda, thanks for the suggestion on Samyama. I added it yesterday :)
Yesterday I also experimented with holding the mantra the whole time at the most refined level I could. This seems closer to yogani's description of the method, so I find myself continuing to experiment with it from time to time.
My experience shifted back and forth between having the almost wordless mantra going, and between thoughts coming up behind the mantra. During the soft mantra phases, I felt like I was near silence, but not getting nearly as deep as when I would normally just let go of the mantra at that point and rest in the silence.
The lessons seem like the mantra should be lost unconsciously - and then picked up again consciously, almost like the power of the coming silence crowds out the mantra outside of conscious control. Then there would be a period of silence which is eventually disturbed by a thought. Does that seem like an accurate description? That silence would unconsciously displace the mantra? I don't actually experience that, the mantra just keeps going for me. Is it worth having lots of poor meditation sessions in order to just wait around for the day when silence would displace the mantra?
So for now I'm going to keep using what works for me, which is consciously choosing to let go of the mantra when I'm near or at silence, and then consciously picking it back up when I realize I'm no longer silent. In my way I feel like I'm forcing the silence. In the lesson way I feel like I'm forcing the mantra. Any more clarification would be much appreciated. |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2010 : 12:56:43 PM
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I've been reading the Meditation forum from back to front, and I came upon a reply by Yogani that speaks directly to the topic here.
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=723
Quoting Yogani's response from that post:
"Hi Chris:
If we realize we have a choice of where to put our attention, we are on the way out already, even if there is a mixture of inner silence, thoughts and mantra. We always favor the mantra in these situations. This can be favoring very refined and fuzzy values of the mantra -- going ever deeper. If we choose to stand pat in "peace," we will be short of samadhi, and deep meditation stops right there. That's why we always follow the procedure.
The guru is in you.
Go to Top of Page" |
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Clear White Light
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2010 : 1:32:39 PM
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Hi JDH,
I very much appreciated your skillful description of how you experience the refinement of the mantra. I have also experienced the feeling of the mantra starting out in the mouth and throat and then eventually becoming more refined and taking up residence somewhere in my head. In light of the post from yogani which you located, it would seem that we are to favor the mantra no matter what. Even in the face of absolute mental clarity and silence. So I suppose it's not so bad to not lose the mantra after all.. |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2010 : 3:35:33 PM
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Hi ClearWhiteLight,
Yes, I was thinking the same thing about Yogani's answer. I just finished an excellent practice session where I incorporated that info. My meditation was particularly deep, and Yogani's instructions are making much more sense. In fact, I think that I have been over-analyzing it, and that if I just had kept on with Yogani's instructions, I would have come upon this eventually anyway. But it's good to discuss these things because, like you said, seeing descriptions from others can open up possibilities.
In today's session, I favored the mantra throughout. But I made a slight adjustment - I would consciously think the mantra until I came close to stillness, just as I described above. Then I would put the mantra on autopilot. Like my subconscious would continue repeating it, but my consciousness was free and still (free to roam was more like it). It was like I was watching the mantra just happen on its own, you know, rolling on its own momentum that I had given it. And then I would relax the conscious part of me that was keeping it going, but let it keep going on its own. So at this point, I am no longer trying to think the mantra, but it is still happening. Hope that part makes sense.
Then the conscious part that I had just relaxed (letting go of the mantra) would be still until it would pick up a thought. But the thought wouldn't manifest like it usually does. Since my consciousness wasn't clinging to the mantra for dear life at this point (the mantra is still going subconsciously), it was free to accept the thoughts that came up. It wasn't categorizing the thoughts and compressing them into words. Instead I experienced them as short dream like sequences of experience. Like I was watching a movie. I only have faint memories of them, but at one point I was running by a snow drift that was glowing a neon blue color. Very dream like stuff.
When I realized I was having one of these mini dreams, I consciously went back to the mantra and repeat the process. In this method, even my "thoughts" felt like they were occurring within the pure bliss consciousness. And although I was getting one of these mini dreams every 10 seconds or so, I felt like I was in pure consciousness for nearly the entire meditation session.
Here's my theory on what's happening. Consider 3 things. I'm no psychologist, but these seem like useful words to describe my meditation experiences.
1. Consciousness (the level of our choices / what to pay attention to).
2. Subconscious (our filter for reality that organizes our thoughts into discrete things that we can manipulate in reality / also is doing a million things all the time that we never consciously think about)
3. Pure Bliss Consciousness (The literal foundation of reality, the void, nothingness that gives birth to everything, the source of all our thoughts at their purest level)
Ok, so at the foundation is pure bliss consciousness, from which all arises. Then our subconscious filters those pure thoughts. Then we experience them with our consciousness.
When I started meditating today, I begin with the conscious mind. I consciously begin the mantra. I refine it down to a soft level - this is bringing the conscious mind toward stillness, blocking out other thoughts, and at the same time, making the mantra smaller. Then I gave over the repetition of the mantra to the subconscious, which is fully capable of doing all kinds of things on its own without me actively thinking about them.
Then, here's my theory, the subconscious is occupied with the mantra, and the conscious mind is stilled from the above process. What happens is that the conscious mind has nothing to do, nothing is grabbing its attention. And the subconscious, which is regularly filtering the raw experience of reality into manageable chunks for our consciousness, is temporarily busy with the mantra. Then pure bliss consciousness is free to mainline directly into our conscious mind. I have eliminated my constant need to have my attention occupied. And I have eliminated the filter between raw experience and my attention. Suddenly my attention is open to the pure silent bliss of the nothingness that is the source of everything.
Then what happened is that my consciousness started seeing these mini-dreams (pure unfiltered thoughts). My subconsciousness doesn't like that. It immediately wants to filter those thoughts and it STOPS the mantra!!! This is where it all starts to fit together with the instructions. Now I am back into my normal regular day state of subconscious filtering reality, and not thinking mantra. And consciousness experiencing thoughts, and not thinking mantra. What do I do? Consciously go back to the mantra and repeat the whole process.
Well that was very long winded, but it feels worth it to me - puzzle pieces were falling into place as I wrote this out. Thanks for listening :)
Jeff |
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Jaycee
United Kingdom
48 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2010 : 07:10:53 AM
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When looking back through some recent lessons, I found this one on reminders about Deep Meditation helpful:-
http://www.aypsite.org/355.html |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2010 : 12:56:02 AM
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In the above posts, I mentioned the method of refining the mantra, and then letting it go when very still, and just being in silence with no mantra. Reason being that I felt more still by doing that method.
Reading more and more old posts, and practicing samyama for a week now, I've found that method doesn't belong in meditation. In meditation, we think I AM over and over again, and whatever else happens, happens - they are the experiences. The practice is just I AM. But that above method of stillness does have a place. It is a part of samyama, when we are still with no mantra for 15 seconds between sutras. And out in the open eyed world of moving samyama. |
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qspadone
31 Posts |
Posted - Aug 29 2024 : 5:33:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Between the ending of every repetition of the mantra and the beginning of the next is a space, which is silence.
But I thought the mantra was suppsed to be repeated in a loop, leaving no space between repetitions, otherwise it would be more akin to the practice of samyama. Should I not repeat it in a loop?
When I say it once, wait, and say it again, etc., the "M" tends to stretch out a lot more, becoming very fuzzy. "AYAMMMMM.. AYAMMMMMMMMMM..". And this is what I thought was incorrect practice: because it is similar to samyama (releasing into stillness).
So, instead of doing that, I move forward with the next repetition without leaving any space: "AYAMAYAMAYAMA..." and it becomes a single chain. And of course the rythm, fuzziness etc. all change by themselves. This is for me correct practice. At least, this is what my interpretations of the instructions lead to. I hope this is correct practice.
Confusing nonetheless. |
Edited by - qspadone on Aug 29 2024 5:45:53 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Aug 29 2024 : 7:04:02 PM
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Hi qspadone,
When I wrote that post, I was only referring to the natural spaces that occur between one word and the next in a sentence, or a thought. So not - thinking the mantra and deliberately releasing it into silence, then doing the same again. That would be similar to Samyama practice, and would be off the DM procedure.
I should actually have been more precise with the language I was using. I should have written this:
"Sometimes during Deep Meditation practice, you may find yourself noticing that between the ending of each repetition of the mantra and the beginning of the next is a space, which is silence. And you may also sometimes notice that between the ending of each thought and the beginning of a new thought, is silence."
That would have covered more eventualities, including when there is no natural space occurring between mantra repetitions, or between thoughts.
But, even if there is no natural space occurring between mantra repetitions, or between thoughts, the process for the gradual expansion of inner silence remains the same. We gradually begin to notice the silence within which each repetition of the mantra takes place, and within which each thought takes place, and, as it expands, we begin to notice that we are that silence.
The correct practice for Deep Meditation is to start out repeating the mantra back-to-back and then let it go as it will. How it develops then, will depend on the unique matrix of obstructions within each individual. Then, when we realise we are off it, again pick it up back-to-back, and let it go as it will. The mantra could simply continue as we started it, or it could become more refined, or it could develop into a continuous sound vibration, or it could dissolve completely into silence. Or, it could do all of those things within one meditation session.
This lesson addition touches on this topic:
Lesson 79.2 - More on mantra repetition
"The truth is that if we are continuously imposing a time gap in mantra repetition, or continuously imposing back-to-back repetition, both are incorrect practice. Continuously imposing any kind of structure in mantra repetition is incorrect practice." [Yogani] |
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What if we never lose the mantra?
