|
|
 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Eitherway
USA
100 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 23 2007 : 10:23:41 AM
|
Hi all,
I know this topic has been discussed multiple times from varying angles on the forum but I figured this might give those with a stronger understanding a chance to share their knowledge with us newbies.
What is the general view about the mind?
Is it something that we aim to eradicate or completely ignore? Are their parts that serve us well versus those that bind us?
Are we better off just observing the mind (of course inner silence makes this much easier) or should we try to engage it to be more useful to us?
What about good (+) thoughts or negative thoughts? Should we aim to have more of the prior and less of the latter or is all aiming futile?
Can we function without it?
Any input would be greatly appreciated. |
|
|
Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2007 : 10:45:35 AM
|
| The way I understand it thus far is that the mind appears to function and navigate in the world as a collection of thoughts (energetic impressions) including the "me" thought. There appears to be a bundling of habitual thoughts that continue to come together and give a sense of familiarity to the me thought. That mind says "This is me, and this is my world". This tends to be a narrow definition. This mind seems to pick and choose, weighing out right and wrong and so on by measuring the perceived world with the habitual thoughts it is comprised of. Underneath this narrow focus of energetic patterning the mind that perceives seems to be a very deep and subtle watching of all of the events of the thinking mind. |
 |
|
|
Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2007 : 11:21:00 AM
|
You've heard the phrase "Let go, let God"? Mind (and "ego" in the eastern sense) is everything that hasn't done this...including the part that says "I should let go" or "I'm going to work on letting go"
Everything that's not melted into the flow of things.
Everything that tries to push the river.
Everything that wants more or less of anything (i.e. grasping and recoiling).
If it sounds like I'm glossing over fine points, know that the faculty that wants to examine the fine points is mind. And mind's a cul de sac.
It's an insubstantial overlay over what we really are, much as phantasmagorical images in the movie theater seize our full attention so that we never, ever notice the unmoving, unchanging screen that's the only real thing. It's not about stopping the movie. The screen's there regardless, so the movie doesn't matter (and the contents of the movie certainly don't). All we can do is open up and melt. Let go of whatever psychic ledges we're clinging to for dear life, knowing we'll float and not crash (that's Faith). Calm down and clear out (via practices) so the images only absorb 99.99% of your attention so you get glimmerings of the screen (which is what you are). The movie keeps playing - the mind keeps doing its thing. But like a car with its engine racing in neutral, the engine doesn't drive the car. Exploring mind's a dead end. Trying to kill the mind's a dead end. Trying to change the movie is the infinitely absorbing human folly. We shake off the hypnosis just a tad and we see that we spend our lives distracted by insubstantial stimulation, and we think that's all that is and all we are.
Doing practices like you brush your teeth helps avoid turning spiritual practice into just another movie...."the spiritual movie". Don't change disks....don't destroy the player....just let go. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Sep 23 2007 12:15:38 PM |
|
|
|
Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2007 : 11:35:14 AM
|
| Yes. Let go. Since the mind is the "tool of the hour" it will function as interpreter of its universe. Trying to control thought, or change it in any way, leads to more confusion. You may have heard that one cannot stop thought with thought. If thoughts are allowed to go their own way then mind can function naturally and brilliantly. When trying to control thought one gets lost in the process and getting lost in thought tends to be a confusing experience. Linked to all this are beliefs. When one has beliefs to uphold and follow those beliefs are nothing other than thoughts. We see how peoples' beliefs tend to carry away and can sometimes be a destructive focus. When a thought is upheld above everything else even violence is allowed as defense. It's quite an interesting game, the mind. |
Edited by - Balance on Sep 23 2007 11:40:24 AM |
|
|
|
Eitherway
USA
100 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2007 : 11:50:54 AM
|
Great advice Jim &K, and Balance,
So simple and yet when the mind is quiet and we are in touch with the silence underneath, the void seems unfulfilling (surely felt by the mind). As we proceed with the practices, how does that change? Do we start identifying with the silence more and more and conversely less and less with the mind? The couple of times when the void didn't seem unfulfilling but rather a great deal of relief was when there was a lot of energy (bliss??) accompanying the silence. Does this resemble the shape of things to come?
In the case where thoughts are allowed to go their own way and the mind can function naturally and brilliantly, what is the nature of the mind at this point? For example, when I have some inner silence, my mind seems to relax, and there is a definite decrease in random thoughts, etc... So in short, when we do let go, is the mind our partner then or still prone to its shenanigans or both and we just shine our awareness on the helpful aspects. |
|
|
|
Eitherway
USA
100 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2007 : 11:56:39 AM
|
| Also what about practices such as Samyama? It seems like we are trying to improve on our role in the script? How is that useful? |
|
|
|
Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2007 : 12:01:11 PM
|
| Sounds like you have a good approach. It can be hard to know how to proceed because we are so intimately wrapped in the mind. You are not the thoughts, but mind can reflect stillness. |
Edited by - Balance on Sep 23 2007 7:36:00 PM |
|
|
|
Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2007 : 12:22:57 PM
|
Well, sure, you can try that and a zillion other clever philosophies. At some point, you'll realize you can't maneuver your way. You can't philosphize it. You'll see that it's all games; that all efforts to construct a plan of attack to Achieve A Result is just more mind stuff, and you're chasing your tail.
And when you feel really REALLY exasperated by this, really sick of (and familiar with) the machinations of your mind and grow deeply convinced that mind is a dead end (this is a moment of deep depression, because it challenges what you deem your very existence) and you sigh in utter abject dismay, that's the point where you stop doing and start letting, and the confusion starts dropping.
Spiritual practices like AYP (which you do casually to avoid getting them, too, intertwined into the whole web of mind) help loosen you up a little so you maybe don't have to run down each and every cul de sac in order to thoroughly realize you're in a pointless maze. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Sep 23 2007 12:26:46 PM |
|
|
|
Eitherway
USA
100 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2007 : 12:53:26 PM
|
So do techniques like Samyama or "law of attraction" work? Or is it that they do "work" in terms of getting what we want but maybe entangle us deeper in the mind??
Or is it while we are seemingly getting entangled deeper, the rise in inner silence due to or further unveiled by Samyama carry us pass the entanglements eventually??
Seems like the forum exists because of the mind or again is that just the mind taking ownership???
I'll go rest and try to cultivate some peace of inner silence. |
|
|
|
Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2007 : 1:23:27 PM
|
Samyama works on you. You don't work on it. Likewise, you are meditated, you do not meditate.
The forum exists to entice people into sitting down twice per day and doing this stuff.
Anything you think or strive toward or do happens within the movie. And that's fine....it's not necessary to stop the movie. If you want to try to make it a "spiritual" movie, that's as good as any other. But for a few minutes a day, sit down, opt out, and let your practices do you!
Simple, yes. But it's all that's necessary. Complication is just mind stuff! |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Sep 24 2007 12:23:47 AM |
|
|
|
emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2007 : 03:38:30 AM
|
quote:
Do we start identifying with the silence more and more and conversely less and less with the mind? The couple of times when the void didn't seem unfulfilling but rather a great deal of relief was when there was a lot of energy (bliss??) accompanying the silence. Does this resemble the shape of things to come?
To me it has been somewhat like that. It is sort of an "identifying" with the stillness instead of the mind. Just that when that identification happens, it is no longer an identification... it is real instead of illusion, the only thing that IS and there's no PERSON there that is making the identification.  I had similar questions a while ago and asked Yogani about that sense of I when identification no longer is relevant:
quote:
Q:Is the feeling of "me" or "I" when you become "That" (which is everything) the same kind of feeling that my mind is feeling currently as "me or I"? Or is it a "proof" that if I still have an "I"-feeling, my ego is still there? I have problems trusting if I ever am in stillness since my "I"-feeling does not change, still you (and others) continue to confirm that I do find quite a bit of stillness in me. Is the witness "I"-feeling the same as the ego "I"-feeling or is it only now in the beginning while taking baby steps into stillness and then something else will come?
Yogani's answer:
We still have sense of I, me and mine, only it becomes more grounded in stillness over time, and more luminous and effused with loving intentions and actions. This reduces the fear, grasping and frustration in life. It happens gradually over time as we continue with our practices. We can't conjure up or imagine this condition to happen. It is a change that happens over time deep in our neurobiology. And we are still "I" through it all. Only our perspective is changing as see more of what is true within and around us..
The change in our perspective becomes known in our actions and reactions, not from assessments of where we think we or anyone else may or may not be in spiritual development. In fact, assessments about spiritual condition are contrary to the condition itself. Just practice daily and live a full life. The results will be there in due course. There will plenty of sign-posts along the way -- it is suggested to let them go by, so as not to get stuck on them. :-)
quote:
In the case where thoughts are allowed to go their own way and the mind can function naturally and brilliantly, what is the nature of the mind at this point?
To me it still shifts in various ways. Sometimes it's completely silent. No-mind. Sometimes it's a "don't know-mind". I don't know what's good or bad, what's going to happen or what's right or wrong and it feels so good and relaxing. Sometimes it's a "radio in the background", still babbling about everyday living, as if someone was listening to it, but doesn't care if someone is listening. And sometimes it's that brilliant companion! Just coming up with a great idea that immediately leads to action. Feels like it's not my personal mind, but a "universal mind", just that great intelligence coming through in thought form.
quote:
So do techniques like Samyama or "law of attraction" work? Or is it that they do "work" in terms of getting what we want but maybe entangle us deeper in the mind??
As long as you are in the realm of the personal mind, believing in your existence as a person who was born and is going to die, the Law of Attraction is what you are trapped in. That's the law of the mind. What films like The Secret can show us is the unreal character of the mind and the existence that we are living in. Everything is the way we create it with our minds. It is a movie, as Jim says, and WE are creating that movie with our personal minds. Change your mind, and the movie will change. When you are tired of playing inside the personal selfish egobased movie and understand there are NO LIMITS to what the mind can create, it becomes boring again, you begin to wonder what's outside that movie. What's the unmovable screen? It becomes more and more interesting to get to know the REAL instead of the UNREAL.
quote:
Seems like the forum exists because of the mind or again is that just the mind taking ownership???
You are right. The very existence of this forum is because of the mind creating it. The whole world and universe is actually nothing, but out of that nothing something appears. With increasing inner stillness it is possible to see both sides of the coin. Both the nothingness and the everythingness... The black and the white, the yin and the yang, the male and the female. The male being the universal, divine, ONE mind, and the female being the creator of it all, the womb of life, the void from which everthing stems. The personal mind attached to ego and self believes it is the center of everyting and the master of it's life and world. It is not. That's the illusion - it is only a "computer program" in your brain. But it's impossible to see that before you step out of the program. And that you do by cultivating inner silence through meditation.
Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth...
PS: The quickest way I have to define the mind is this: It's what has a future and a past and a like or a dislike.
|
Edited by - emc on Sep 24 2007 03:43:39 AM |
|
|
|
Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2007 : 08:46:34 AM
|
| This thread is helpful to me. I've been going through a very difficult stretch where it seems that my mind is NOT on my side. I observe it and at times it almost seems to be plotting my demise. I try to ignore it, or replace the destructive thoughts with more positive ones (thus my interest in the Law of Attraction) but as we all know that can be a monumental task. I find refuge in meditation, where the mind is (in theory) turned off, and in my creative work, where the mind is engaged. The most challenging part is to ignore what the mind is telling me. It's an endless loop of chatter, and very convincing at times. It's interesting to observe it, but to recognize that it's just a story, and then disengage. |
|
|
|
Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2007 : 10:25:53 AM
|
Thanks EMC for that post, perfect timing I really needed to hear that, particularly the response to your question by Yogani. More synchronicity!
A
|
|
|
|
emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2007 : 4:40:35 PM
|
When the 'I am myself' goes, the 'I am all' comes. When the 'I am all' goes, 'I am' comes. When even 'I am' goes, reality alone is...
/Nisargadatta
|
|
|
|
Eitherway
USA
100 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2007 : 4:44:57 PM
|
Thanks emc and all,
Hard for us who have worked all our lives to develop our thinking to believe that Nisargadatta was just a ordinary, unlearned, bidi (hand rolled cigarrettes) maker before his devotion opened his eyes.
Some of our most cherished beliefs seem to be the most limiting. |
Edited by - Eitherway on Sep 24 2007 5:04:12 PM |
|
|
|
Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2007 : 5:17:48 PM
|
| Mind is the definer. No mind, no definitions. |
Edited by - Kyman on Sep 24 2007 6:55:50 PM |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
| AYP Public Forum |
© Contributing Authors (opinions and advice belong to the respective authors) |
|
|
|
|
Define the mind please!
