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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 11 2007 : 10:09:48 AM
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for better placement, moved by moderators from here
Hi All
Thank you for all the contributions to this thread. I enjoy it!
You know......I don't see any ladder. There is something about this description that...is not quite it... for me.
Anthem wrote:
quote:
So to me, love is the whole ladder from bottom to top.
Yes....
And if love is everywhere, then the ladder....is not quite it, is it?
The thing is.....fear is also everywhere. This is very clear to me these days:
When i am calm.....there is no fear, just a great loving peace.
The instant I "fall out" of this calm - usually by identifying with some kind of mental activity or image - then fear is a result. So to me....it is rather that i am with I am, or i am with me. I am either conscioulsy in existence, or i am not.....present.
And what ....."transports" me into existence...is the stopping of identification with all concepts. It is the stopping of all travels. It is not an achievement. Not at all. It is not my doing.
I guess what i am trying to say is that there is always a possibility of fear - no matter where in the process I find myself. In fact......to me it seems that the more sensitive and alert I get, the greater the issue of fear.
My head is worked on constantly these days. The force....that hums through my head chakras is just......I just don't understand how i can take it. I don't understand my own calmness about it. It's power is....immense. I still have episodes of pannick attacks in tunnels (and I never used to be afraid of this)....but I manage to steer away from the thoughts that accompanies them (like: what if I faint while I drive). So far, I am ok. I have thought about the possibility that i might be on the verge of going into involuntary trances. If so - then I need to be careful. Anyone here have any input on this?
By the way - I am self pacing all the time. I walk and walk, i do physical exercises for the back. I apply for new jobs. I keep a strict - short - daily practise (4 breaths of pranayama and 5 - 10 min of meditation). No matter what I do - the force is the same. Always active. Always surging. Always humming. With it - I am in or out of conscious contact with the great peace. This too, is not my doing. It happens spontaniously.
At night, I sleep deep and soundly. No problems here. (Other than occasional snores from my husband  )
Someone once told me that the third eye chakra is very related to fear issues.....so I guess this is what I go through. It is another way to face death.....so that i will see the illusion of it, without my body actually dying. The fears i used to have (like fear of wasps) are almost gone. It is just a tiny part of me that reacts to these triggers now. The rest of me stays calm. But the fear is very strong in tunnels, and in cars driven by someone else. If they go too fast.....
Sorry for going on and on about this...
What i ment to say is that fear is always a possibility - no matter where on the "ladder" you are.
And so is love.
I am either here....or I am not.
To the best of my capability (and the capability increases...in depth) - I am either here, or i am not present.
The "I" that is capable of being present is never the Ego. That's what's so great about it  . To know that as long as I am quite inside - i am with i am. This means....no matter where I am on the "ladder".....there is always the possibility of being completely here.
No matter where I am, I can always be here.
No matter where in the ocean i find myself, I can always chose to stop the struggle of swimming.....and float instead.
And I love water the most.
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Edited by - AYPforum on Jun 18 2007 09:57:31 AM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2007 : 3:03:00 PM
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Hi Katrine,
I hope you don’t mind me saying so, but as I read your post, it seems to me like an underlying fear of losing control is permeating many different issues for you. I know the fear of losing control intimately, it is a big one for me as well.
Is it true the energy is over-whelming or going to over-whelm you? I had an interesting experience a while back where intense fear of losing control in particular situation, amplified the inner energies in a way that was overwhelming and (emotionally) uncomfortable for me. It was too much, or so I thought and was presented with feeling overwhelmed as proof. As I enquired on the issues at hand and my fear dissolved in the situation, the feeling of the energy being so much and anything overwhelming went away too.
(like: what if I faint while I drive).
To me this is begging some self-enquiry, is it absolutely true you will faint while driving?
So far, I am ok. I have thought about the possibility that i might be on the verge of going into involuntary trances.
To me this asks for more self-enquiry on fear of losing yourself. Is it true you will go into an involuntary trance?
But the fear is very strong in tunnels, and in cars driven by someone else. If they go too fast.....
I have this too, in fact just not being the one driving makes me fear not having things “in my control”. If they go fast then it is really tough for me to not be afraid of nightmare outcomes that my brain imagines could happen. I have done self-enquiry on these issues and found great relief.
The wise ones say that any notion of control that we think we have is an illusion.
Maybe this will help?
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2007 : 4:31:27 PM
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Thank you, Andrew 
quote:
I hope you don’t mind me saying so, but as I read your post, it seems to me like an underlying fear of losing control is permeating many different issues for you.
Absolutely. It is a clear fear of losing control.
But what I don't understand is.....why?
I don't want control. All i yearn for is to melt into the presence. I don't understand why I am so afraid, when this is what I want most of all.
See....I don't understand who it is that is afraid?
I don't know this person. Who is she?
I feel it has to do with resistance. But I don't know what I am resisting. How can i resist what I love?
As for being overwhelmed....
Yes. I do believe you are right. It is I that overwhelm myself. Somehow i manipulate myself into this state. Why don't I just stop?
I will continue to watch the workings of it.......it will reveal itself eventually. I pray for understanding.
Thank you, Andrew....for always caring. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2007 : 10:19:26 PM
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quote:
Absolutely. It is a clear fear of losing control.
But what I don't understand is.....why?
I don't want control. All i yearn for is to melt into the presence. I don't understand why I am so afraid, when this is what I want most of all.
See....I don't understand who it is that is afraid?
I don't know this person. Who is she?
Byron Katie in her latest book, "A Thousand Names For Joy", describes how after she woke up to her true reality and realized herself to be the Infinite that she still was "being bombarded by all the delusions that humanity had ever suffered from". Even though she didn't identify with any of it, she still had to "write them down and inquire in order to hold reality firmly". She indicates that for the first year she had to do this every day sometimes several hours a day. All this effort even though she knew this woman with all these delusions wasn't her. She did it though with love and compassion for that person. As she indicates "I was writing all the time, but I never felt upset, I loved this woman who was dying through inquiry, this woman who had been so very confused."
I've noticed in my own experience, that sometimes I can see the needlessness of my suffering, realize it is delusional based on false beliefs but even with this awareness, I still need to systematically go through dealing with one layer of thought at a time.
I find that from this process, the deeper layers reveal themselves. I actually enjoy it (though not always at first ) as it can feel tedious or unnecessary. What we resist persists, as they say, I know that if I say I shouldn't feel this way or think these things I am resisting myself and perpetuating the erroneous thinking paterns.
quote:
I will continue to watch the workings of it.......it will reveal itself eventually. I pray for understanding.
No doubt you will find it, you've been an incredible help to me on my journey!
A
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2007 : 10:17:16 AM
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Andrew
Thank you
quote:
Even though she didn't identify with any of it, she still had to "write them down and inquire in order to hold reality firmly". She indicates that for the first year she had to do this every day sometimes several hours a day. All this effort even though she knew this woman with all these delusions wasn't her. She did it though with love and compassion for that person. As she indicates "I was writing all the time, but I never felt upset, I loved this woman who was dying through inquiry, this woman who had been so very confused."
Yes....
Yes....this hushed me up, Andrew. Everything sort of...fell into place when i read this. Thank you so much.
I read it just before going to a job interview. Some weeks ago I bowed my head and asked the Presence (the shine): "Please help me get a job that will make it possible to remember you throughout the working day, and at the same time give me the income needed for the needs of my family. Let me take some of the financial burden off the shoulders of my husband, but only if it will keep me in presence. It doesn't matter what i do; only that i remember you".
Two hours later I was phoned up by a recruiting agency according a job for an unknown customer. I went through the recruting interview, and then waited for a response. I applied for other jobs in the mean time. About a week later, i bowed my head again, and asked the presence: "Please let me know what to do about the other jobs. Please clear things up, so that my focus can be in your direction only". 30 min later the woman from the recruiting agency called and said that the firm was interested in an interview. Today was the day, and I just got back. Everything went very well. I don't know for sure yet whether I get the job, but the chances are very good that i will. It will solve many issues if i do.
Anyway - after finishing the interview and feeling the positivity....it dawned on me that it is the pressure of searching for a new job that have pulled me into thoughts and images. Again a breach of trust - because it needn't have been a struggle. The struggle was all in my head. A fiction.
So. I understand the fear. i am afraid of dying. Of not surviving. This is what I am resisting.
I laughed and laughed when I saw this....because...i am already dead That is why i don't know the frightened person. i am already not identifying with her. She is already dead. And here I am.....fully alive Katies comment about "loving this confused woman" filled in the missing piece. The...thought patterns and emotional setup of this woman are still around, but i don't have to resist it. On the contrary - the instant i embrace it, I see that i am not it. The confusion is not who I am. I am the one who sees it.
Not much more to say. I will remember to stay "firm in reality". This is what will dissolve the identification with the fear. Katies way is "writing it down". Mine may be different (i will definitely question myself).....but the result will be the same.
Thank you again, Andrew.
And sorry for disturbing this thread with my personal issues. At least they are ego related  |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2007 : 05:21:25 AM
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Hi again
Just two things:
I got the job
And:
I have been asked to sing again. I have been a fool. It is ok to sing on stage...as long as I am filled with Presence, as long as it is my heart that is singing, as long as I enjoy it and as long as the song is communicating the shine.
I will have to go through an audition (this is a top ensemble) in August (13th ....it is actually my birthday....I laughed at that) - but although I hate auditions....if I follow the intention above, everything will be ok.
Singing.....the reason I love it so much....is that it always anchors me in Presence. Always. The only thing that can ruin this enjoyment, is if the singing is linked to some kind of enhancement of the person Katrine. If I think that it is i that sing; that I am a "better person"; that I am "higher than thou" if i sing well - then fear enters. Fear of facing the fact that I am nothing in and of myself. Nothing. All is Presence. If I think that I am wonderful....then I am instantly separated from Presence. It has always been like this. It has always been a trust issue.
So - all i have to remember - is to accept the fact that it is Presence all along. To allow for it to come through the vocal chords. To always bow my head so that my heart can smile.
It is so simple when seen. So simple.
lucidinterval1 wrote:
quote:
I am under the impression that the ego dissolves when enlightenment is attained
I - the ego thought - can never be enlightened. Enlightenment cannot be attained. But I - the Presence - is the light itself.
And if singing helps me to stay put in reality - then sing I shall.
It will help me to forget less. Ego dissolves again and again. I forget again and again (and ego is back). I pray that I will remember all the time!
Besides - nothing touches like music. It is an audible silent language
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2007 : 9:16:02 PM
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Congratulations on the job Katrine! What will you be doing?
I used to sing years ago in rock bands, and I found it very therapeutic. I called it "expressing myself", but it never felt like me I was expressing. I was more expressing some great force, and it had a tremendous balancing and stabilizing effect on me.
Nothing touches like music, but many things touch as incredible languages.
I was watching a recording of "Battle of the Year" from 2001, where B-boys and B-girls from all over the world battle each other as teams, then winners are declared. There was a Korean crew and French, Japanese, Swedish, and many others. Each crew had a unique feel to the way the individuals danced.
What was amazing was I realized most of these crews couldn't understand one sentence spoken from most other crews, but they communicated through dance, and understood each other perfectly. Rival countries like Korea and Japan felt a comraderie because of their common interest in dance. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2007 : 10:03:04 AM
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Hi Ether
quote:
Congratulations on the job Katrine! What will you be doing?
I will be working in an office downtown - an organization that administrates the whole spectre of Norwegian traditional handcrafts. My working day will be varied.....everything from data work and memberservice to head of reception. It is a service job....helping both collegues and customers/members. I know I will enjoy it immensely
I am very, very greatful to Grace for making this happen! |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2007 : 8:06:40 PM
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i have a service job too and love it. I could make more money elsewhere, but if you can find work you love, AND a boss that treats you well- Keep it!
I am often finding confirmation that I am in the right place at the right time. |
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2007 : 12:14:37 AM
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Hi Katrine,
I'm glad all the flying particles in the scene bottle (the kind you shake, and it snows all over) have settled down for you. In this instance.
I could relate to what you were going through. Would like to share a parallel experience, which I can see as an outcome of the ayp practices. For work I make films: documentary, commercial, entertainment, anything...and I do enjoy my work, despite its uncertainity and stress points.
I have a passing interest in a lot of subjects, and plants are only one of them. A couple of months ago, I was gripped by a fever of wanting to know wild plants, herbs, and their medicinal uses. I was at it day and night. It was as if I had no control over myself. If I stopped, I was confounded by a painful physical fear (feel it in the stomach: the manipurak chakra, btw, rather than the ajna, which as far as I know expresses anger, ego, when out of sync). I made a few formulations for friends, acquaintances and family, all pretty successful. Still going through it. I stop, and I feel disjointed, and I keep doing this and I am calm, peaceful. I am being pushed in a direction, certainly. When I handle plant material, I feel like what you describe for your singing: 'feel the Presence'? That sounds a little big for me; but I guess that's what it is. I feel grounded. I feel everything is alright. Somewhere else on the forum, Hunter was dancing it off... Ether enjoys a lesser paying job, just read Yogani's thread on finding your gift and using it to help people: I see a pattern here, do you?
Your thread here brought it all together for me. Thanks, and keep singing and finding yourself and your 'Presence'. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2007 : 04:55:48 AM
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Hi Sadhak
Thanks for sharing, and for finding resonance in this thread
quote:
Your thread here brought it all together for me. Thanks, and keep singing and finding yourself and your 'Presence'
Yes...
See...what happens when I sing, is that it becomes clear that it is not I who sing. Noone is singing....there is just singing. It is I who watch. It is a clear experience of waking up to the fact that I am not the body, or the expressions of it.
The more this detachment from the body....expands; the more I am able to watch the singing rather than identifying with "doing it". And the funny thing is - the more easygoing and beautiful is the singing.
It is as if the expression is free of me, then.
The "price" I pay is complete lack of control. That is why the issue of fear is so crucial. Fear versus trust.
But this "price" is nothing. It is just a story I have maid up When I am detached and with the watching.....there is so much Joy.....so much awe....and if I manage to not start "talking" (passing judgements on what I hear....wording opinions etc)...then the spell lasts....
And nothing; absolutely nothing; is wrong. |
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2007 : 9:51:01 PM
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quote:
See...what happens when I sing, is that it becomes clear that it is not I who sing. Noone is singing....there is just singing.
Hi Katrine,
This is what I've been experiencing: that I am not making the formulations and medicines. It is being made. And again, because you've articulated this, it is all the more clear to me. I mayn't from now be sometimes wondering, "Is this really me doing this?" And if I do, I'll know I'm not being true.
This is more of inner silence, the witness coming up, surely. And one of the niyams: 'Ishwar pranidhan', which means surrendering all actions to the One.
With my previous teacher, we were told that whenever we felt the need to ask for something, (and there was always that time or moment when all the energies are condusive to your plea being granted), to only ask, "Make me a channel of the divine". Anything else that we could think of asking would be too miniscule and irrelevant (and irreverant) compared to this. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2007 : 11:46:32 PM
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This is in reply to Katrine's early postings in this thread; I haven't had time to read through all postings yet.
As you walk this path, all your latent fears and desires are magnified. That's universally warned about. Silence acts as an amplifier on fears and desires, and the more silence you cultivate, the greater the amplification.
Fortunately, while fears and desires get bigger and louder, they also grow less substantial, more transparent. They hold you less tightly in their grip...unless you choose to take the bait and fall back into the delusion of separateness and control (in which case you will be gripped tighter and tighter until you're back utterly caught in the thick of all that).
You describe fears and desires as growing, yet they're weirdly otherworldly, as if you're given a choice. That's precisely it.
Here's why it's happening. You're nowhere near as surrendered as you think (I don't say this with any derision or condescension...I'm in the same boat). You've surrendered some, but you retain mountains of samskaras (latent propensities and impressions accummulated in this and - if you believe in that - previous lives), MOST OF THEM SUBCONSCIOUS. These subconscious patterns and attachments are the source of the fears. They are the meat of this unknown woman you refer to.
You can have very profound experiences and deem yourself almost fully unattached, unaware that lifetimes of mud still weigh you down just outside your conscious awareness. There is vast work to do for all of us. It's nowhere near as quick as we imagine. A bit - or even a lot - of awakening and awareness comes relatively soon in the process. But then it's a long slog and a big dig.
Example: you first deny the existence of any "ladder", then do an "aw shucks, I'm not so high up the ladder", and then point out that even those as high on the ladder as you have issues. That's an example of an egoic samskara playing out from behind your conscious awareness - an emanation from the strange woman who's fearful, resistant, controlling, etc.. We all have multitudes of these unconscious samskaras constituting the strange selves in our subconsciousness. If we can be just vaguely aware of their quantity (right now, you're only noticing the ones absolutely screaming at you...imagine how many quiet ones there are!), it's a useful reminder of the mud still covering the windshield.
It's not necessary to consciously hunt them down, analyze, catalog, and exterminate them. As Neem Karoli Baba said: rather than try to figure it all out, it's better to just see God in everything. But he means absolutely naked to the bone, even the parts far from the composed shiny center of your vision - the nicely presented place where you've already done plenty of dusting.
You can clear an area in the center, but until you let go with every cell in your body, the projections of these samskaras will keep amplifying and tugging at you...in your sleep, in the back of your mind, etc. (to clarify, you only notice the projections; the samskaras themselves are unconscious). You have two tools: AYP, plus the fact that the fears and desires will become more and more transparent even as they crescendo. By choosing not to inhabit these ghostly projections - by detaching and viewing them from silence, and by meditatating to increase that silence, you are doing the work that needs to be done. Commendably, that seems to be mostly what you've decided to do.
In the light of the above, consider this statement:
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"I don't want control. All i yearn for is to melt into the presence. I don't understand why I am so afraid, when this is what I want most of all."
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No, Katrine. You want all sorts of control. This thirst may be somewhat reduced, at least in your conscious narrative, but your nooks and crannies - the caves of your unconscious - crave control with drooling greed, and resist melting into the presence with demonic tenacity and fingernails dug in. That's the "other woman" you write about. It's not another woman, it's you. You've cleared out a spot - from which your protagonist voice declares her policy positions on life and love. Less familiar parts of you cling and resist and feel very much at stake. There is a vast amount of letting go still to be done, and while it may be invisible to you, it's not really hidden. You've always been really full of you as you've glowingly disavowed your youness.
I'm having the same problem. We all are. It helps to at least recognize the problem, because it's humbling. And I hope this posting helps. Though if it annoys you, that'd be helpful, too, because that which is annoyed is that which is still hanging on (http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=1137). Anything that illuminates the darkened target is good (n.b. you missed that opportunity with my Marilyn Monroe analogy). |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jun 22 2007 02:57:55 AM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2007 : 06:08:07 AM
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Hi Jim
Thanks for taking time to look at the ways you see I fool myself.
I read a true effort to help from your side. And by posting this, many others will find help too.
Thank you for highlighting blindspots!
Some of what you write is clearly true:
quote:
You've surrendered some, but you retain mountains of samskaras (latent propensities and impressions accummulated in this and - if you believe in that - previous lives), MOST OF THEM SUBCONSCIOUS. These subconscious patterns and attachments are the source of the fears. They are the meat of this unknown woman you refer to.
quote:
We all have multitudes of these unconscious samskaras constituting the strange selves in our subconsciousness. If we can be just vaguely aware of their quantity (right now, you're only noticing the ones absolutely screaming at you...imagine how many quiet ones there are!), it's a useful reminder of the mud still covering the windshield.
Not all in this post is what you deem it to be. This I cannot do anything about. You seem to read into my posts a clear assumption from my side that I am "fully surrendered", or "fully unattached". What I refer to, when I keep relating insights and moments of clarity or joy, is simply that - clarity and joy. And how I love this. I know - from experience - that it is perfectly possible to experience the reality of Being, without being permanently realized.
I don't see the necessity of clinging to stories of how we are ridden with samskaras. They are surely here without me trying to remember them all the time. I don't beleive that I have to "remember that this woman is me". I'd rather be aware of the emotions/ideas/images themselves. Without attaching them to any identity. This way, they can be questioned and understood as false in and of themselves.
quote:
Less familiar parts of you cling and resist and feel very much at stake.
This is obviously true.
As for rememberance itself - I'd rather remember Being. All the time. As you say - it is inner silence that does the job. Not me. I cannot (other than AYP and self-inquiry) do anything to help me. But inner silence can.
I see how I come through to you. I am glad you took the trouble to tell me. I need to look at myself and see where I fool myself, and others need to see this post so that if they too think that I think I am "fully surrendered" or "fully unattached" - that this is not true.
You know a lot about me; I hardly know anything about you. You are helping me. What is true, I take to heart, what is not, I simply disregard.
Although many of my posts are on the "shiny vision" side - it does not mean that my life is all shine. Although the shine is always here (and I mean this literally) - so is the obtuse, frightened and stubborn Katrine. So thank God for the shine !
What I experience as true - noone can ruin this. It is just here...it is solid and not threatened by anyones opinion.
Jim - thanks for caring.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2007 : 10:38:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Thanks for taking time to look at the ways you see I fool myself.
Nope, that's not what I was saying. What I'm saying is there's a huge amount of work left to do - evidenced by your subconscious, which is resisting, controlling, and bombarding you with fears and desires. So if you believe yourself to be fully cleaned out and on the brink of ultimate enlightenment...yep, you're fooling yourself. But I haven't heard you claim that. So self-deception is not the issue here.
The issue here is the one you brought up: the strange woman you sense in the periphery of your field of vision, and all the fears and attachments with which she seems mysteriously besotted (and which are spilling over into your lap). The answer is straight from yoga: she's the samskaras in your subconscious, and her urgencies are magnifying and manifesting as your silence increases. And while your "spokesperson" may protest (quite sincerely!) that this woman's issues and needs are not your issues and needs - that you ache to move beyond issues and needs - the spokesman has not been briefed on everything the committee has on its agenda.
You seem to think I'm somehow damning your intentions, or suggesting you change something. I'm not at all.
And as for knowing about me....I'm grappling with every single one of the same issues. I, too, have the nausea and confusion that comes from 1. a little bit of realization that there's no separation.....yet 2. a feeling of split-ness that defies that realization. I know all about the happy spokesman voice, so clean and clear and spiritual, so eager and ready to merge, yet a dark ocean liner of unseen and inaccessible attachments and tendencies is silently towed behind, just out of (my) view in the murky, foggy waters.. As I continue, that mess keeps projecting increasingly messy issues. That's the way of this Work. I have previously let go into all sorts of loveliness. Ahhhh.....daisies!! Now let's see how deeply I'm truly willing to go through with that. Front-of-the-brain surrender is easy. The monsters and habits and crap and mud at the back-of-the-brain are harder. Again, the saving grace is though it gets louder and messier, it also becomes more transparent.
To make a movie analogy (stolen from Maharshi), most people go through life attached to the images and completely unaware of the screen - the only real thing, on which all the phantasmagorical images play. As we meditate, we relate more to the screen and less to the images. We think we've "got" it. But...woops....you find still there are images - lots of them! - that can hook your attention and identification back to the movie and off the screen. "Will I faint while driving through the tunnel?" is a wonderful, wonderful example. You're being shown that there's still plenty that can take you from God...."Let's not be philosophical here, Katrine....you're going to FAINT in the TUNNEL and DIE IN HORRIBLE PAIN". Ok, there's a movie that got your full attention. How's that screen NOW? :)
Thank God (literally) that this portion of your attachment was tested only once you've attained a nice amount of silence. You were able to (largely) perceive (or at least suspect) the unreality as it happened....which still did not make it an easy thing! That's awesome. Of course, without that helpful transparency, you'd have been utterly, utterly separated by the experience (imagine if it happened 20 years ago!). Per the Bible (poor paraphrase here) you're not given any challenge you're not ready for.
I hope it's becoming a bit clearer what I'm saying now.
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Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jun 22 2007 1:09:30 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2007 : 10:46:46 AM
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Oh, one more thing. Just as desires and fears get stronger as silence increases (a trap!), the worse trap is that, as Yogani says, the ability to feed the desires (i.e. actually get what you want) and fears (avoid what you fear) also gets stronger. That's why I'm always urging everyone to avoid aiming spiritual work at specific real world effect (e.g. healing samyama). It's hard enough to see through these phantoms without having established a pattern of feeding and engaging them with our spiritual energies. We're trying to detach from our desires and fears, not to more skillfully and effectively engage and attain with them.
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Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jun 22 2007 1:32:38 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2007 : 11:17:42 AM
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One more thing: the "spokesman" is the ego mind. The spokesman honestly thinks she's surrendered. The ego is a happy eager puppy, very anxious to make happen all that is wished for. You wish surrender and God and no-ego? The ego will create an experience of surrender and God and no-ego all within the frame of ego.
So what to do amid all the monsters and mud and loops and traps? Follow the genius of Yogani's expression: Favor the practice. Devalue the experiences and analysis.
The silence that amplifies the fears and desires also detaches you from them. So....Mantra, Mantra, Mantra. (the new millennium's version of "Location, Location, Location"...don't know if you'll get that joke in Norway....)
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Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jun 22 2007 1:06:04 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2007 : 4:24:01 PM
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Well, I enjoyed reading that. You may become a renowned spiritual writer some time Jim -- but only provided you stay unenlightened long enough. There, I hope that messed your screen up good (probably worse than the prospect of dying in horrible pain in a tunnel) because only if your screen is messed up long enough will it happen.
Jim said: Front-of-the-brain surrender is easy. The monsters and habits and crap and mud at the back-of-the-brain are harder.
So so so so true.
Katrine said:
I need to look at myself and see where I fool myself, and others need to see this post so that if they too think that I think I am "fully surrendered" or "fully unattached" - that this is not true.
Katrine, on the forum I've seen grown men dance like munchkins at your holy feet, as if I'm watching the good witch Glinda in the Wizard of Oz. That happened because people wanted it to happen. It certainly isn't all bad, and it certainly isn't all good, it is what it is in the dance of samsara.
It is only because of the "monsters and habits and crap and mud'n'stuff" (to borrow Jim's technical terms) that deluded mythologies about people get propagated. It's a rare person that has the strength and vision, and motivation, and persistence, to decisively break any deluded spritual mythology about themselves that arises in any kind of 'spiritual' group. Because the mythology is just too delicious a thing for the ego to throw away. So too often the ego likes to have its cake and eat it -- to repudiate the mythology officially on the one hand and then (often subconsciously) cultivate it on the other! You know the number -- some chest-thumping protestation of ones ordinariness, while being half-hearted and generally uncommitted to breaking false perceptions, or preventing their development.
At the same time, in your case I can't be sure at all that you even do want the adoration on some subconscious level (only you can be). Maybe you don't -- maybe you even hate it and maybe it's just the munchkins in this case for all I know who set all the adoration up. But one thing's for sure -- once these things get started they tend to have a life of their own, and get harder and harder to stop.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jun 23 2007 7:36:04 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2007 : 5:26:55 PM
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"it is what it is in the dance of samskara"
David: correction. You mean "samsara", the conditional world. "Samskaras" are what I was talking about above....the little subconscious tendencies, patterns, and collective sense impressions built up over a lifetime (or many lifetimes, if you're into that).
Also, I disagree with you. My spiritual mythologizing of myself, for example, is quite high and always has been. Since I was twelve years old, I've been absolutely CERTAIN I'm on the brink of holy grandeur. In fact, every movement of energy or unfoldment of silence makes me gesticulate wildly like Fred Sanford, yelling "Uh-oh, this is the BIG one!" I'm fortunately of an age now where there've been so many false alarms that I can't help but laugh - hard - at myself when I do that. But I still do it. And the thing is: that's ok. It doesn't matter so long as you don't get trapped.
It doesn't matter so long as you don't get trapped. That's the perfect distillation of everything I typed above. It doesn't matter so long as you don't get trapped.
We westerners think we need to, like, FIX all our issues. No, that's the goal of psychology, not mysticism. My idiotic compulsions and knee jerk self glorification needn't be photoshopped off my cortex. It can all stay.
It can all stay.
I just need to not let that stuff drive the car. THAT'S the challenge. And it's a lot easier to read a statement like that and chuckle wisely at your grasp of the insight than it is to actually detach from an ever more intense and visceral cast of sirens and tormentors. I tow an ocean liner full of 'em, and so do you all. You don't slay them, you love them...and let them simply be. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jun 23 2007 5:42:59 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2007 : 5:44:02 PM
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Yes, that's a typo on the samskara. I did understand it.
Since I was twelve years old, I've been absolutely CERTAIN I'm on the brink of holy grandeur.
Yes, that's the Messiah gene talking. In my case it started when I was only seven. It's like having a tick. It may pass away or it may not. But it is important to understand that it is a tick, a neural spasticity, not the voice of Truth.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jun 23 2007 5:51:52 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2007 : 6:24:02 PM
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"But it is important to understand that it is a tick, a neural spasticity, not the voice of Truth."
I'm going to be a real jerk and keep arguing as you keep agreeing. I'm annoying myself by doing this, but I can't help it (it's a samskara...not kidding....).
It's ALL the voice of truth, even the idiocy. Just need to let it all be. Don't divide everything up into right/wrong, and good/bad. Let it be. Don't get trapped (in "truth" OR in "falseness") via attraction or repulsion. Be empty and just let it all be. Swami Lennon-McCartneyanda got it right.
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Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jun 23 2007 6:29:02 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2007 : 7:23:16 PM
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Don't divide everything up into right/wrong, and good/bad. Let it be. Don't get trapped (in "truth" OR in "falseness") via attraction or repulsion.
I would agree we should avoid getting 'trapped' in anything -- neither in a truth, nor in a falsehood that it counters.
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2007 : 7:42:20 PM
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| David and Jim - I think it's ironic that you're addressing control issues when you've both been nonstop edit mode for the past few hours. Let it be indeed! :) |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2007 : 7:45:03 PM
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| LOL. Yes it is ironic and funny. We're just neurotic in our persistent editing, and that can't necessarily be fixed. So we'll just have to let let it be, won't we? |
Edited by - david_obsidian on Jun 23 2007 7:47:29 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2007 : 8:11:50 PM
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Oh YEAH. Meg, I've admitted innumerable times that I've got a sick, sick problem with the edit button.
It's just so easy to be misunderstood. And as a few minutes go by, and I reread my stuff more dispassionately, I see ways to create more clarity. But the process is potentially endless. It's hellish.
Let me see if I can not edit this. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2007 : 8:15:14 PM
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"ensure" would be clearer than "create". And "hell" would be stronger than "hellish". And "admitted" (instead of a less loaded verb like "said") makes it sound like I think I'm being "Large" about this. And "resist editing this" would read better tahn "not edit this".
In 30 minutes I'll have more. |
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Resistance, fear and control issues
